StarCraft Discussion (Official)

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StarCraft Discussion (Unofficial)

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It is common for users to forget about the existence of the StarCraft Discussion forum, in which any debates related to Blizzard's most popular franchise are held. Most threads concerning StarCraft will go here, but threads like "StarCraft II ability in real life" can remain in Off-Topic.

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Well let's see..


[+]----------[+]

[+] Graphics are new, and improved
[+] Very reliable engine / core
[+] Balanced units (ladder)
[+] Heavily improved Galaxy Editor (like garbage collector)

[-]----------[-]

[-] Very graphics heavy, limiting players to only new hardware, even at lowest settings
[-] Very laggy in-game play
[-] Blizzard almost refuses to update or fix many known issues
[-] Release featured many missing qualities (such as chat channels) which they (at first) refused to fix, even today much is still missing
[-] Many issues with the Galaxy Editor; easy to cause game lag and crit errors
[-] They introduced seasons. Even Activision-Blizzard themselves said Arena was the worst thing they ever added to World of Warcraft. Why incorporate it's bias ranking system to Sc2?
[-] Going to have to pay full price for expansions and contain little benefit to gameplay
[-] Single player missions were lore rape
[-] Warcraft 3 featured amazing UI, while Bnet 2.0 is laggy, graphics heavy, and difficult to manoeuvre in
[-] As great as the editor is, it's a strong learn curve. The simple process of creating a unit is a galactic feat for someone who hasn't used the editor for year(s) or more.
[-] The friends system is simply ridiculous compared to Wc3.
[-] No clans / guilds etc
[-] The 'need' for severely improved content has created a drought in availability (nobody is making models, icons, etc)
[-] The new WoW expansion has Pandas. Sorry; had to go there.

Rating: Waiting for Wc4...


Am I getting somewhere?
 
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[-] Very graphics heavy, limiting players to only new hardware, even at lowest settings

Works good on Low on my Intel Core 2 Quad, 2GB RAM, GeForce 8600 GTS I bought 4 years ago. On Medium only in Campaigns. The Graphics are good.

[-] Very laggy in-game play

Uhm, no lag here. Been playing on Bnet 2.0 too.

[-] Blizzard almost refuses to update or fix many known issues

Give it time.

[-] Release featured many missing qualities (such as chat channels) which they (at first) refused to fix, even today much is still missing

Many such as? It's true what you say that it's missing some features such as chat channels, clans and the old Custom Game system, LAN. However they are not that many really, although they are important for a good experience.


[-] They introduced seasons. Even Activision-Blizzard themselves said Arena was the worst thing they ever added to World of Warcraft. Why incorporate it's bias ranking system to Sc2?

Seasons were in Wc3 and Diablo 2 way before WoW:TBC. A ladder ranking actually makes sense in a competitive strategy game.

[-] Going to have to pay full price for expansions and contain little benefit to gameplay.

We still don't know if they will be full priced. I mean SC2 has enough content to be worth 60$, and here your right. At least from what we've seen of HotS, it doesn't justify a full price.

[-] Single player missions were lore rape.

Eyup.


[-] Warcraft 3 featured amazing UI, while Bnet 2.0 is laggy, graphics heavy, and difficult to manoeuvre in.

That's an exageration. It ain't that difficult. It's just different.

[-] As great as the editor is, it's a strong learn curve. The simple process of creating a unit is a galactic feat for someone who hasn't used the editor for year(s) or more.

Yeah, the editor is kind of hard. Hopefully they will simplify it in an expansion.

[-] The friends system is simply ridiculous compared to Wc3.

It's a little more complicated but not ridiculous.

[-] No clans / guilds etc

This goes to your previous statement where the product lacks certain features. Than again Wc3 RoC didn't had it when it was released either. Hopefully it will come in the next expansion.

[-] The 'need' for severely improved content has created a drought in availability (nobody is making models, icons, etc)

Well modding for newer games has become more complex too. Take a look at the Sims 3. I don't think it's necessarily harder to change a skin for Sc2 or make a model. I just think you are used with thousands upon thousands of custom content from the 10 year old Wc3.

[-] The new WoW expansion has Pandas. Sorry; had to go there.

Pretty sure we gonna see a Panda Marine at one point or another. Other than that I don't see your point related to Sc2.

Rating: Waiting for Wc4...

I hope you don't forget to get a wife and have children while your waiting. Just cuz you might be too old for that kind of stuff when Wc4 will be out.

Am I getting somewhere?

:pir:
 
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Than again Wc3 RoC didn't had it when it was released either. Hopefully it will come in the next expansion.

Yeah, I don't buy this. If it was in a game that was infinitely 'inferior' (according to Blizzard), why isn't it in their best game ever? Bull.

StarCraft II was a disappointment, and I find very little value in any of it.
 

Dr Super Good

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[-] Very graphics heavy, limiting players to only new hardware, even at lowest settings
The game is anything but graphicly demanding. Most frames get dropped because of a CPU bottleneck rather than the GPU.

[-] Very laggy in-game play
Never noticed this at all. Even when playing keyboard controled maps it plays acceptably and with less lag than WarCraft III plays.

[-] Blizzard almost refuses to update or fix many known issues
Blizzard did not refuse and is fixing some of them. Next patch will introduce a list for map sessions that are waiting for players to start.

[-] Release featured many missing qualities (such as chat channels) which they (at first) refused to fix, even today much is still missing
They were added quite quickly afterwards as they said they would. You are far to vague about what is missing.

[-] Many issues with the Galaxy Editor; easy to cause game lag and crit errors
I agree that it has some integrity faults. It is no worse than World Edit where using the default syntax checker the program would crash (and lose all your progress you made since the last save) when it encountered some types of syntax error. Cannot see how it could ever cause lag seeing as it does not do much that requires the internet. I guess when you are uploading a map on a poor connection it will create lag but that is the connection's fault and not StarCraft II edit. The program is StarCraft II Editor not Galaxy Editor.

[-] They introduced seasons. Even Activision-Blizzard themselves said Arena was the worst thing they ever added to World of Warcraft. Why incorporate it's bias ranking system to Sc2?
Most people say it works perfectly fine as long as you do not throw matches. Most of the complaints are from people who hate losing or people who are unfortunate enough to fight some moron who threw matches just so he could bulldoze players who are many skill levels below him (the Masters rank Bronze player problem).

[-] Going to have to pay full price for expansions and contain little benefit to gameplay
The other day I thought Blizzard announced that Heart of the Swarm will be sold as an expansion and thus cheaper than Wings of Liberty. In any case it is well worth it since they are adding more content to the game than The Frozen Throne did for WarCraft III.

[-] Single player missions were lore rape
Explain?

[-] Warcraft 3 featured amazing UI, while Bnet 2.0 is laggy, graphics heavy, and difficult to manoeuvre in
It is less graphic heavy than WarCraft III's BattleNet interface. There every button would do crazy animations just to get the custom game list. In StarCraft II atleast it changes much faster between views.

[-] As great as the editor is, it's a strong learn curve. The simple process of creating a unit is a galactic feat for someone who hasn't used the editor for year(s) or more.
It is very easy to learn to use compared to WarCraft III. Yes you are overwhelmed by the share number of options provided but everything makes perfect sense. In WarCraft III everything had a specific purpose and would exhibit the strangest bugs and behaviours if you tried to change that purpose. An example is Death Bolt which could not have its targets and behaviour changed where as all abilities in StarCraft II can.

[-] The friends system is simply ridiculous compared to Wc3.
Explain? It works great for me.

[-] No clans / guilds etc
Is this feature really nescescary? Next to trying to show off to people who do not care that you are in some group.

[-] The 'need' for severely improved content has created a drought in availability (nobody is making models, icons, etc)
A lot of people are making models, just the art tools are not released yet (coming with next patch). Until then model making is difficult and the results are often not optimum due to the accessibility of certain features.

Icons are easy enough to make just it seems no one here is bothering to make SC2 icons. You do not even need to put borders on them as the game does that automatically. It even makes the disabled version automatically from the original.

[-] The new WoW expansion has Pandas. Sorry; had to go there.
Diablo III has Witch Doctors in it. Sorry I also had to go there for some reason that is not quite known to me... Maybe you could explain why you are mentioning WoW in a StarCraft II thread? At least the Witch Doctor (probably wearing Archon tier gear) will make an appearance in StarCraft II Blizard DotA but I do not think any pandas will.

It is not like Pandas as main characters are anything to surprise one seeing as they first appeared in WarCraft III. They are not even the only furry characters in WoW as you have the Tauren (original furies) and Worgan (expansion dog furies).

Am I getting somewhere?
Apparently not. You did not explain your points enough.
 
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Wow just lol@ some comments, Rispetto, Leagues now makes more sense to me but so do Levels, but if you have any sense of ladder and I mean REAL sense, which you clearly don't because this is a mapmaking forum and you can't expect real players hanging around here for long (PurplePoot was one but do you see him around anymore, like every since he's Master and decided wtf he would be doing here? I stay for ponies.. yes really), so unless you have some understanding pls don't talk

But I dislike new season every 2 months, this short time is crap to be honest because well I was intending to miss 1 max 2 seasons it became 3 I will now start from Season 7. Then again it makes sure people actually play often, so this is the purpose I guess, it's competitive for sure with lots of competitive players.

The editor is painful but what do you think, a more advanced editor would make all magically for you? With more features increases difficulty, go back to SCBW Campaign editor and you will enjoy it even more? Also You CANT Play on WOODEN PC a NEW GAME and WC4 will be THE SAME... Wtf lmao.. noob? QQ
 
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I was skeptic about it too but you know, it sometimes happens when fans speculate too much and the name appears on many places and forums, it is made eventually. I was a war3 player, I am so much more comfortable and secure playing it, than I am at SC2 where the competition is just so much bigger - War3 and SCBW players come to it. And yet SC2 is enough competitive and is worth playing for years, I hope so, thus I don't mind if this remains the last RTS game to be for many years. Where did you read that SCII is the last RTS title btw?
 
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I never read it. Blizzard stated they are not working on any other RTS titles, indefinitely. We know Blizzard's definition of indefinitely is forever. See also: StarCraft: Ghost.

StarCraft II is not worth playing for years. It isn't worth playing for days. It's boring and unimaginative.
 

Dr Super Good

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Yes, it is just like StarCraft II, it will never happen. Oh wait...

Blizzard might not make a WarCraft IV or a StarCraft III but they will definatly make another RTS. They have a whole team dedicated to RTS games (the StarCraft II team) so it would make no sense to fire them after they finish LotV.
 
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They have interns for StarCraft II, and nothing else. The few voice actors they hired for SCII will be fired after the Protoss expansion, if not before, as they are useless to them. Metzen has already proven himself to be a complete idiot and is no longer competent to do anything other than screw up WarCraft lore even more than WarCraft III and World of WarCraft did, so I don't see how keeping him in the company is going to do anything good for them.
 
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I got Diamond league back in beta and Gold/Plat the two seasons of release that I played, just from my 1v1 qualification matches. I know how to play the game; I just don't want to. It's fuckin' boring.
 
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Well all leagues under Diamond high or Master 1v1 are casual players pretty much (except those who still have 3K games and are gold/plat). War3 was competitive and very interesting with its micro moves and maybe a little bit more interesting to watch than SC2 is but SC2 is still fun to watch as the better the players become, the greater moves we see. But you need to like esports to like the game.
 
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And this is why nobody with a brain likes this game.

So if you like esports or are into it you have no brain? Wow, that was one very stupid comment. Hmm let's see which is better: earning money or probably having the feel of winning matches in tournament or making maps and some terrains on a dying and old game that no one but a small community cares about? Btw I'm a War3 player I come from it, that's what gave me the interest in gaming vs others, I dont bash the game even the slightest, Im just able to move on.

Just like some people don't like soccer, others do, it's the same here, keep your lame opinion as your opinion and dont post bs
 
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My opinion is not bullshit; to say so is a bullshit opinion.

See? I can be stupid, too.

As a friendly suggestion, I would suggest that you focus on grammar and sentence structure so I can actually understand your insults. Otherwise, it's just insulting yourself, which makes me laugh.

And no, nobody with a brain likes esports. It's pretty obvious.
 

Dr Super Good

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Pr0nogo, all the points you have mentioned have had no evidence to support them and thus are invalid. The posts you are making appear to be designed with the intent to irritate people and cause an argument. This is what most people call trolling so please stop.

Is there any news about when the next patch is due? I am getting concerned that it will
 
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Is there any news about when the next patch is due? I am getting concerned that it will

I am getting concerned that it will, too.

None of your points have any evidence, and you are in no position to call my arguments invalid; just because you're a vaunted pretentious expert and have moderation powers doesn't allow you to stamp an INVALID sticker on my posts. It allows you to delete them, sure, but that hardly gets anything done. It does, however, make you look like a tyrant.
 

Dr Super Good

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They have interns for StarCraft II, and nothing else. The few voice actors they hired for SCII will be fired after the Protoss expansion, if not before, as they are useless to them. Metzen has already proven himself to be a complete idiot and is no longer competent to do anything other than screw up WarCraft lore even more than WarCraft III and World of WarCraft did, so I don't see how keeping him in the company is going to do anything good for them.
You can start by providing evidence for this. As far as I am aware their StarCraft II team is doing very well and they have no plans to fire them at the moment. The whole intern arugment is applied to all games as that is how game developers get their internships. Diablo III and WoW are probably made by a lot of them as well.
 
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And no, nobody with a brain likes esports. It's pretty obvious.

The only obvious around here is one troll. Everybody with a brain does esports because outsmarting your opponent and outplaying him requires times more thinking than making maps. SC2 while less micro-centered is exactly very strategy intensive. Also English isn't my native but I do not care how I post on a forum, it should be understandable for someone who claims to 'have a brain because he doesn't like esports'.

He's posting single line crap repeatedly without backup and trying to get on everyone's nerves, ban that tard pls.
 
Last edited:
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Well let's see..


[+]----------[+]

[+] Graphics are new, and improved
[+] Very reliable engine / core
[+] Balanced units (ladder)
[+] Heavily improved Galaxy Editor (like garbage collector)

[-]----------[-]

[-] Very graphics heavy, limiting players to only new hardware, even at lowest settings
[-] Very laggy in-game play
[-] Blizzard almost refuses to update or fix many known issues
[-] Release featured many missing qualities (such as chat channels) which they (at first) refused to fix, even today much is still missing
[-] Many issues with the Galaxy Editor; easy to cause game lag and crit errors
[-] They introduced seasons. Even Activision-Blizzard themselves said Arena was the worst thing they ever added to World of Warcraft. Why incorporate it's bias ranking system to Sc2?
[-] Going to have to pay full price for expansions and contain little benefit to gameplay
[-] Single player missions were lore rape
[-] Warcraft 3 featured amazing UI, while Bnet 2.0 is laggy, graphics heavy, and difficult to manoeuvre in
[-] As great as the editor is, it's a strong learn curve. The simple process of creating a unit is a galactic feat for someone who hasn't used the editor for year(s) or more.
[-] The friends system is simply ridiculous compared to Wc3.
[-] No clans / guilds etc
[-] The 'need' for severely improved content has created a drought in availability (nobody is making models, icons, etc)
[-] The new WoW expansion has Pandas. Sorry; had to go there.

Rating: Waiting for Wc4...


Am I getting somewhere?

You forgot to add no lan or cross-region play

But all negative points aside, the game is getting better gradually with each patch and expansion.
Soon you will have more green points than red.
 

Dr Super Good

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90% of the work is done by interns. Evidence to this claim is shoddy gameplay product. Either it's the interns, or the game developers are horrible. You can believe what you want to believe.
Please take your ignorance somewhere else. If you understood the software development process or even what an intern is you would be laughing at what you just said.

The game play is not horrible, just BattleNet 2.0 is missing important features. It was clear this would be the case when Blizzard announced a definite release date for StarCraft II before it had started work on BattleNet 2.0. If you like WarCraft III you will like StarCraft II once enough diversity is introduced.
 
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WarCraft III has quite a few issues that were never fixed, and more issues that came from patches. I don't like WarCraft III's melee play as much as StarCraft: Brood War's because it forgoes a simple complexity and a balanced setup for a ridiculous amount of flowery abilities and an impossible-to-balance mix of melee unit types.

StarCraft II is similar, albeit with a more short-sighted take on unit types and abilities. Instead of making that the focus of the imbalance, StarCraft II puts the imbalance in unit groupings. With the million man march, if the Terrans reach critical mass (which is about ten of each unit type, or less), the game is pretty much over. Protoss have a similar system with Immortals, Blinkers, Rangeossi, and Chargelots, but they can easily be overcome by the Terran's million man march and some spare Vikings. Zerg doesn't have an over-powered ball; it's actually the most balanced race out of all of them, but they seem like the weakest because of the high power of the other two races.

Now, let me reiterate my point; I don't believe that Blizzard's development team could possibly design something as fun as StarCraft: Brood War and then go on to design something as unbalanced and un-fun as StarCraft II. That's why I apply the responsibility of the game to interns. If you like StarCraft II, you like a bad game, and that's fun. Plenty of people do. You guys just have to deal with that stigma. That's all.
 
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SCBW is probably the most balanced game from the 3, even War3 didn't reach it in level of balance, but SC2 is so early that it's early to talk about what is not made.

But SCBW also had melee and it also had esports. So go on, bash SCBW's melee too cause you suck at all three.

Funny how some mapmaker expects that anything he says matters when any melee is much more brain consuming than your maps.

------
DSG since HotS is taking more time than even D3 seeing how its release date is still not announced, maybe Blizzard are learning from their mistakes and this time they will make sure nearly all is fine before it goes public. Though some bnet features are nowhere announced to be made. Still, I think this is like cultural shock - we all get used to War3 and all its bnet then when we go to the new Bnet 2.0 - omg everthing is so different. Then, the more you stay in SC2 Bnet the more you get used to it.

It did so for me and many others who were also complaining of missing features back in SC2 Beta. I no longer care about bnet features really and any real gamer stopped caring what features is not there.

The rest is like 'why is my marine not changing clothes like in WoW' like WoWtards would say, i.e complaints of that kind - pointless complaints. There is what to do on Bnet 2.0 but hardly matters anymore now, does it?

And I thought HotS was gonna come before D3, that only means they are giving more attention to the expansion than D3 atm which is nice.
 
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SCII has been out for several years now, and they've made the balance markedly worse than it was several times before.

StarCraft had well-balanced melee; StarCraft II does not, and likely never will, much like WarCraft III. There's too much going on, and the development team has shown very little competence thus far, in terms of fixing anything.

Calling me names, insulting my level of play, and referring to me as a retard is not going to get you anywhere in the argument. You look stupid enough with a pony for an avatar. Maybe you should spend more time watching that show and less time insulting people who have, somehow, gotten you so angry and self-conscious that you feel the need to lash out at them. I do apologise for referring you as brainless. Hopefully, you can stop thrashing about over the internet.
 

Dr Super Good

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Pr0nogo, who are you to know what balance is? Statistics show that all 3 race matches have approximately a 50% win ratio. Deviations do occur but that is all in the expected distribution. To me this looks perfectly balanced.

That's why I apply the responsibility of the game to interns
Why are you so against interns? I have to do one this summer with some company so are you saying I am stupid and what I will produce is useless? How dare you insult me like that. Who are you to even comment? I am on track for an Electronic and Software Engineering degree, are you? Do you even know how software is created?

Now, let me reiterate my point; I don't believe that Blizzard's development team could possibly design something as fun as StarCraft: Brood War and then go on to design something as unbalanced and un-fun as StarCraft II.
You are comparing a 13 year old game with an expansion to a two year old game without an expansion? Seems rather stupid to me since a lot of balance changes have been made to that game over the last 13 years. If you want to compare Brood Wars you will have to compare it to Heart of the Swarm.

StarCraft had well-balanced melee; StarCraft II does not, and likely never will, much like WarCraft III. There's too much going on, and the development team has shown very little competence thus far, in terms of fixing anything.
Show me a single release patch that made a persistent change that made balance worse? Explain how the game can even be called imbalanced when statistics from masters and professional matches are showing a 50% win ratio for each race in un-even matches.

DSG since HotS is taking more time than even D3 seeing how its release date is still not announced, maybe Blizzard are learning from their mistakes and this time they will make sure nearly all is fine before it goes public.
The reason is that they are also working on Blizzard DotA for it which is as good as a separate game. On top of this the campaign reuses very little content from WoL and they even said they were avoiding recycling content. Everything from the texture sets to the doodads are new. They also cannot release two games at the same time without competing with themselves so it is clear they are delaying HotS until after D3 and MoP.

To apologise for this delay they are releasing a patch soon that will modify BattleNet and StarCraft II Editor in many positive ways.
 
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SCII has been out for several years now, and they've made the balance markedly worse than it was several times before.

StarCraft had well-balanced melee; StarCraft II does not, and likely never will, much like WarCraft III. There's too much going on, and the development team has shown very little competence thus far, in terms of fixing anything.

Calling me names, insulting my level of play, and referring to me as a retard is not going to get you anywhere in the argument. You look stupid enough with a pony for an avatar. Maybe you should spend more time watching that show and less time insulting people who have, somehow, gotten you so angry and self-conscious that you feel the need to lash out at them. I do apologise for referring you as brainless. Hopefully, you can stop thrashing about over the internet.

So I am stupid because I use a pony avatar? Lol I think that argument backfires at who's stupid. In fact, lots of players called their user names MyLittlePwny and things like that - while being Master, I would never call my main acc like that if not some training, so does that make them stupid too? At least im not THAT big fan of the show, but why does this even matter?

No, you should apologize to calling esports for no brainers, not to me because this shows where you are, one clueless noob. I'm not a pro player but having played 5K 1v1 games on War3 and now in SC2 above 1000 games, I need just some silly comments to know where a person is in skill and how much he understands the game. There are Bronze players who are smarter than some whiny bitches, so I don't care about the league which yours is not high anyway.

Balance? Sure there is what to do in SCII. Years? Only a year and soon 2 years. Ok with Beta it's 2 years and 2 months. War3 balance? Both are not as balanced as SCBW but since SCBW is the oldest and they had the most time and War3 kind of died after SC2 came.. maybe it is explainable?

Do you think your balance is the reason why you suck, kid? Nope. Balance doesn't matter to you, balance is only on highest level where players can't get any further, for you it is just LACK OF SKILL.

Just don't diss something that you suck at, that's what im gonna tell you. Go make your maps and shut up.
 
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Pr0nogo, who are you to know what balance is? Statistics show that all 3 race matches have approximately a 50% win ratio. Deviations do occur but that is all in the expected distribution. To me this looks perfectly balanced.

The news I saw a few weeks ago did not yield those results. Perhaps I am judging the game off of defunct data. Comparing that data to the lower level leagues also yields far more staggering results. Some really funky balance stuff happens on the lower levels, so check out some examples on YouTube or something before you tell me that lower-level play doesn't matter. That's like saying people who play on leagues lower than Masters don't matter, and I'm sure they would take offence to that.

Of course, who am I to talk? Clearly, I have offended quite a few people. Still, I thought you might like to know, because nobody should intentionally offend anyone.

On the subject of who I am to talk balance, I am someone who has beta tested every one of Blizzard's games since 2002, when I beta tested WarCraft III's expansion and witnessed quite a few changes to balance. I have quite a few years looking at this stuff under my belt. I would think my opinion should carry some weight, since I also beta tested StarCraft II. In my opinion, they had a bit better balance back then.

Why are you so against interns? I have to do one this summer with some company so are you saying I am stupid and what I will produce is useless? How dare you insult me like that. Who are you to even comment? I am on track for an Electronic and Software Engineering degree, are you? Do you even know how software is created?

This is probably where I should just stop talking to you, because these points are hilariously reminiscent of a fully-grown adult who was insulted by someone ten years his younger. But, I'm bored, and it's half past four, so why the fuck not?

I am against interns in Blizzard games because they have shown to significantly reduce the enjoyment I get from playing a game. Interns made me want to toss my monitor out the window while modding StarCraft and it's expansion. Interns made me extremely frustrated trying to change around sound assets in Diablo II. Interns made me laugh in horrific disbelief at the backward systems of WarCraft III's trigger and camera settings. Interns made me cry a wittle bit on da inside when I played StarCraft II's campaign. What did interns do so wrong in this game, though?

Interns did most of the voice acting. That was cringe-worthy.
Interns did the level designs. None of them felt like StarCraft. I don't mean the first game, I mean the universe. It felt foreign, and not the kinky Asian-Latino transexual stripper kind of foreign; the bad kind of foreign.
Interns made the new data editor a helluva lot more complicated than it had to be. I would have preferred WarCraft III's, with more assets to configure. The new way might have one or two new options, but sacrificing those so I could lose the 'let's create 1240890 other things to make one new unit' thing. That'd be real nice.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I don't think YOU are stupid because you are going to take part in an internship. I may think you are stupid for a legion of other reasons, or I may think you are a completely capable and functional gentlemen of today's society. You can decide for yourself what you think I think, just as you can decide whether or not what I think means anything to you. How dare I possibly think something you don't think, right?

You see, unless an intern really loves his or her role, they have no reason to do a good job on their product. The company will get rid of them after a while, and they know it. That's got to have been it, I think. Either that, or interns aren't responsible for this at all, and I should be blaming the actual in-house Blizzard development team for all of my complaints. You yourself told me not to do that, so...

You are comparing a 13 year old game with an expansion to a two year old game without an expansion? Seems rather stupid to me since a lot of balance changes have been made to that game over the last 13 years. If you want to compare Brood Wars you will have to compare it to Heart of the Swarm.

StarCraft's latest patch was in early 2007, unless 1.16.1 was patched over just now. That effectively makes it a 9 year old game, so watch your numbers. Confusion does not make a good debate.

It is true, a lot of balance changes have been made. Perhaps it is a bit early to judge. In the time it takes Blizzard to release new patches, though, we can all sit back, enjoy a soda, and laugh at how pitiful the rest of the game is, right? I mean, we can all agree at the level of crap the campaign, UI, and new battle.net "features" add up to, right? Hahaha! Ha! ... Ha... Yeah.

I suppose I'm so tough on Blizzard because they should have learned from their past patches. That, and...

Show me a single release patch that made a persistent change that made balance worse? Explain how the game can even be called imbalanced when statistics from masters and professional matches are showing a 50% win ratio for each race in un-even matches.

Well, you have called me stupid and your buddy here calls me retard and troll regularly. None of these statements are true, and still it happens. Crazy, right?

Here's your patch notes.

bad patches said:
Patch 1.4.3

Phoenix
A new upgrade has been added to the Fleet Beacon: Anion Pulse-Crystals. This upgrade increases Phoenix weapon range by +2.
Why? The Phoenix has very few natural air encounters, and can't engage ground units. Why does it need a bonus to its weapon range? That just makes it more ridiculous, and means Protoss players have one more thing to waste money on.

Ghost
Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 (+25 vs Psionic).
Cementing the role of the Ghost as a Templar killer only makes it more imbalanced against Protoss. Snipe already decided the battle of Terran balls against Protoss balls. Lighten up on the Protoss balls, will you, Blizzard?

Patch 1.4.0

Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.
Blinker rushes were not unstoppable, and Terran players could easily get their free scan box (or, you know, fucking scout or something) and adapt well before Blink is researched. One could also easily anticipate that something is up from the lack of contact that is associated with this type of rush/cheese/pasta/whatever else you like to call it.

Infestor
Neural Parasite range decreased from 9 to 7.
The Infestor has been the single most changed-up unit in the game. It is ridiculous. That being said, this particular change makes the ability very hard to execute unless the Zerg player can stop microing and burrow-move into the designated enemies, and THEN cast the spell. No need for that, thank you.

Source: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_II_version_history

I could go on.

To apologise for this delay they are releasing a patch soon that will modify BattleNet and StarCraft II Editor in many positive ways.

I certainly hope it succeeds.

So I am stupid because I use a pony avatar? Lol I think that argument backfires at who's stupid. In fact, lots of players called their user names MyLittlePwny and things like that - while being Master, I would never call my main acc like that if not some training, so does that make them stupid too? At least im not THAT big fan of the show, but why does this even matter?

You're asking me a lot of really stupid questions, and my answer to them all is no. However, it is very interesting how you seem to be so easily riled up and so very self-conscious about watching a female children's television show. Particularly;

At least im not THAT big fan of the show

I actually really love that you followed it up with,

but why does this even matter?

You've struck gold, son. It doesn't.

No, you should apologize to calling esports for no brainers, not to me because this shows where you are, one clueless noob. I'm not a pro player but having played 5K 1v1 games on War3 and now in SC2 above 1000 games, I need just some silly comments to know where a person is in skill and how much he understands the game. There are Bronze players who are smarter than some whiny bitches, so I don't care about the league which yours is not high anyway.

Well, since all my apology did was make you angrier and more cuss-prone, I'll retract it. I'm not sorry, and I hope we can't be on 'I don't care about you at all because I've never met you' terms again. Did that make you feel better, or...?

I am sincerely confused. You rejected my apology, but then told me I should apologise to people I've never met before. I don't care if I insult them. I don't know if this is something you've never thought of, but do you care when you tell the funny racist jokes or funny sexist jokes to your buds? Not really. You get the feels-good-man feeling from making them laugh at your faux-bigotry, and that's fine. I do it all the time. You don't feel guilty for insulting people - people who you have never met, and who you have no intention of meeting, ever. Such a notion is silly, and you should not confine your life to this close-minded standard.

As for my intelligence and my skill, only one is lacking. Can you guess which one it is? I never did claim to be a stellar player, after all...

I'm glad you can make up your mind about someone's skill after a few hundred hours of gameplay. I might be able to grow up to be like you, someday.

Balance? Sure there is what to do in SCII. Years? Only a year and soon 2 years. Ok with Beta it's 2 years and 2 months. War3 balance? Both are not as balanced as SCBW but since SCBW is the oldest and they had the most time and War3 kind of died after SC2 came.. maybe it is explainable?

I wonder if you'd sound even more self-consumed in person...

Your nitpicking and semantics of my 'years' statement is not only stupid, it's wrong. It's stupid because you're exhibiting the same level of 'irritated assbasket' as that guy who says "It's not five, it's four fifty-eight!" when you tell someone what time it is. It's wrong because plural can refer to fractions and decimals, so as soon as it's that infinitely-smaller-than-smallest fraction of time past a year, it's been years.

Maybe the lack of proper balance is explainable. I've already touched upon this issue with the good doctor, though, so I'll let you exercise your reading skills up there instead of down here.

Do you think your balance is the reason why you suck, kid? Nope. Balance doesn't matter to you, balance is only on highest level where players can't get any further, for you it is just LACK OF SKILL.

Last time I checked, I was completely balanced. Maybe it's that chicken from Wendy's...

No, I think I'm good.

I really don't see how you demeaning my level of skill in StarCraft II is going to make you any more correct. You've committed ad hominem so many times that I have lapsed into doing the same back to you, in a far more sarcastic, haughty, condescending manner. That's not something I do often, but I quite enjoy it now that it's become obvious to any outside observer with a brain (ooh, said it again! burn!) that you are incredibly self-absorbed and have no place in an intellectual debate. I actually reported your post for this reason, but decided that I'm better off showing everyone both of our true colours, rather than hiding them.

The scenario of players never being able to improve is also staggeringly improbable. Even if we were to set aside semantics of "his reaction time is .002 seconds faster now!" scenarios, players can always learn new things and they can always get better. There is no way you are going to sit there, tell me that people in high Masters are the glowing form of perfection amongst StarCraft II players, and even think for a second that I will take you seriously.

I suppose we could just chock this up to your LACK OF INTELLIGENCE. Quick, kill that Centaur Sorcerer and take his +2 tome! You might even level up...

Just don't diss something that you suck at, that's what im gonna tell you. Go make your maps and shut up.

The notion of you telling me what to do over the internet is quite alike the notion of that thirteen year old kid playing HALO: Reach, calling everyone a 'faggot' or a 'gay person' while he does so. You're not that tough, bro, and I wouldn't let you come anywhere near me even if I were gay.

inb4 'u r gay u dum bass' statement (it's a multiple entendre, get over it)
 
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Level 22
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Feb 4, 2005
Messages
3,971
So being a beta tester makes you think you understand it all? LOL. I was in SC2 Beta too and I've played War3 in beta too, but I played 1K games over SC2's release to see where I am and since I'm a War3 player and as such I still don't find it easy to macro the entire map, I still don't whine about balance cause it is all practice and skill.

And any pro player will have much bigger insight on balance than me, heck any player with twice as much more games will have it. The same way someone with twice/times as less games will have less understanding and will complain about balance..

Though I have to agree some of the balance things were unnecessary while others were needed.

But still you can't blame losing and winning due to balance if you're not some Grandmaster, yes even whiny Masters posting at sc2 blizzard forums are suckers - at higher level suckers lol but at least as Master they have more reason to post than some low leaguer cause low leagues - Gold, Platinum Diamond all the same, in Master it starts to matter

and that's why they Removed LOSSES for Under Master cause in Master and up it matters (which however I am not fan of) but for whiny Fun Gamerz like some mapmakers or Tower Defensers who cry about getting too many losses they removed the Losses for ALL. Not optional, just forced.

Some features did make it look like kids background and not a real competitive ladder. Losses removal is one of them so im not some blind Blizz fanboy, all know the critics I posted about this all but liek everyone else I stopped caring. I just have to get over it and be Master to get my wins/lsoses stats not just wins.

And when it comes to losing from races, it is skill but for Ghosts nerf - it was one because they snipe the Broodlords and they did reduce the damage from Snipe against non-casters. Still OK vs casters.. that much you understand.

Situation Report

have you watched IMMVP vs Nestea in Blizzcon 2011 Finals, game 3? I thought so.

Who teaches you at school these days to argue by any means necessary and with anyone? Is this supposed to be correct or something? Wrong, wrong system, always have to say something even when wrong.
 
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Level 6
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
169
So being a beta tester makes you think you understand it all? LOL. I was in SC2 Beta too and I've played War3 in beta too, but I played 1K games over SC2's release to see where I am and since I'm a War3 player and as such I still don't find it easy to macro the entire map, I still don't whine about balance cause it is all practice and skill.

I don't play the game anymore, so my 'whining' is mostly just complaints from memory and from long-standing issues I've had with its single-player aspects. That's why I bring up being a beta tester; I've seen how the game was then, and it was better than patch 1.4.2. I haven't played the latest patch.

And any pro player will have much bigger insight on balance than me, heck any player with twice as much more games will have it. The same way someone with twice/times as less games will have less understanding and will complain about balance..

So my opinion is completely and utterly invalidated because of some misconceived penumbra in a silly SUPER ADVANCED math equation you figured out? Hmm...

But still you can't blame losing and winning due to balance if you're not some Grandmaster, yes even whiny Masters posting at sc2 blizzard forums are suckers - at higher level suckers lol but at least as Master they have more reason to post than some low leaguer cause low leagues - Gold, Platinum Diamond all the same, in Master it starts to matter

I think everyone's enjoyment matters. If you payed for the game, and you suck, you should be able to find enjoyment in the singleplayer aspect. I can't find enjoyment in that, and I can't find enjoyment in the multiplayer aspect. Do I suck? Maybe. Do I have a reason to complain? Yes. Does not being in Masters league mean that my complaints are invalidated and horribly misconceived? Not one bit.

im not some blind Blizz fanboy

Very defencive attitude you've got there. I never called you that.

And when it comes to losing from races, it is skill but for Ghosts nerf - it was one because they snipe the Broodlords and they did reduce the damage from Snipe against non-casters. Still OK vs casters..

Brood Lords and Overseers make short work of Ghosts...

have you watched IMMVP vs Nestea in WCG 2011 Finals, game 3?

I have a brain, remember? :ogre_hurrhurr:

Man, who teaches you at school these days to argue by any means necessary and with anyone? Is this supposed to be correct or something? School is turning into shit it seems. Wrong, wrong system of debating, always have to say something even when wrong.

Yeah, you should move to a place with better education.
 
Level 22
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Feb 4, 2005
Messages
3,971
^ Probably, but Im being objective and I know when to shut up unlike you, like if I were to argue with someone much better than me, which is much better than arguing for the sake of arguing. Nice teaching, it produces arrogant kids.

So you are a fun player you play for the lolz and some lolz maps and you complain about balance? lololol

You did not even grasp the change that was made about Snipe but since 'no brainers' decide the balance you complain about it? When the 'no brainers' have tons more insight on why smth needs a balance.

See? You dont know when to shut up. If you paid for a game to enjoy then DONT Play ladder, Blizz explicitly said their focus is esports.
If you don't like esports, that's your opinion, dont diss it,. don't bash it when it is just you, dont cry about balance, people are playing it to compete, they did enough Kiddies Playgrounds around for fun gamers, then what are you doing here crying about thing you don't like doing? Because of such like you they removed losses.

It's like me coming to whine why the editor is so hard to use when some people are much more into it than me, not only do I not whine, but I actually started learning it, not cry.

I PAID for the game? Why can't my map magically be ready? Where is my magic wand? Blizz pls make the Editor AUTO MAKE READY MAPS cause I'm noob at it
 
Level 6
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
169
^ Probably, but Im being objective and I know when to shut up unlike you, like if I were to argue with someone much better than me, which is much better than arguing for the sake of arguing. Nice teaching, it produces arrogant kids.

You're being self-absorbed agaiiiiin.
I'm not even going to give you the benefit of the doubt anymore.

So you are a fun player you play for the lolz and some lolz maps and you complain about balance? lololol

Simplification can work wonders for your arguments, but don't strawman. I can see straight through that shit, brah.

I don't play, period. When I did play, I did not play competitively. From there on, you are incorrect in assuming that this somehow makes my complaints invalid. I'm sure you have some opinions on the Galaxy Editor or the storytelling, whether or not they're positive or negative. By your logic, your opinions on those subjects are invalid.

You did not even grasp the change that was made about Snipe but since 'no brainers' decide the balance you complain about it? When the 'no brainers' have tons more insight on why smth needs a balance.

Are you writing this on your phone, or are you just bad at typing? I'll assume the latter for now, since you lack sentence structure altogether.

I grasped the change perfectly; I don't agree with it. That's why I brought it up. I view it as a bad change. This, in no way, makes me somehow incapable of realising why someone thought it was a good idea.

See? You dont know when to shut up. If you paid for a game to enjoy then DONT Play ladder, Blizz explicitly said their focus is esports.

Then my contention is that they should have focused on making all facets of their game good, rather than pouring all the resources that truly mattered into gameplay - something I still find lacking, despite all of these efforts.

If you don't like esports, that's your opinion, dont diss it,. don't bash it when it is just you, dont cry about balance, people are playing it to compete, they did enough Kiddies Playgrounds around for fun gamers, then what are you doing here crying about thing you don't like doing? Because of such like you they removed losses.

You don't like me or my viewpoints. That's your opinion. Don't diss them. Don't bash them when it's just you (what the fuck does that even mean?). Don't cry about how they're different. Plenty of people agree with my viewpoints. There are also people who think like you do. Why are you even here, crying about my viewpoints? It's because of you that some moderator somewhere might delete or edit my posts.

If you didn't find that paragraph stupid, you are beyond redemption.
If you did, you are a hypocrite.

It's like me coming to whine why the editor is so hard to use when some people are much more into it than me, not only do I not whine, but I actually started learning it, not cry.

Actually, it isn't like that at all.

Not once at all did I ever say to myself (or to Blizzard, or to anyone, nor anything),

I paid for this game. Why can't I magically be in Masters league? Where is my magic dildo? Blizzard, please make all other players play really really poorly so I can be the god of StarCraft II's melee, because I'm too lazy to learn how to play for real!

No. I discussed balance. I discussed gameplay.

You? You haven't discussed either of those. You have yet to discuss something beyond your self-absorption. You know what? I think you need to grow the fuck up, or ship the fuck out.

Actually, it'd be nice if you did both. I can't force you to become more intelligent. I can't force you to become less self-absorbed. I don't want to, either; I want you to work for it. I want you to achieve intelligence. That's what I want. Then, you can come back. Then, you can lay out your reasons and your viewpoints. Then, you can ask me to debate with you.

Then, I will listen. Then, we will debate.

Now, however, nothing you say will be counted for anything - not to me, at least. I will not respond to you. I will report you a second time if you ever send me a vulgar PM again. I will ignore you. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to get smart, either.

I'm more than willing to engage in a debate with someone else, though. In fact, you can always sign up with a dupe account and try again for one or two posts, before I realise it's you.

Regards.
 
Level 22
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Messages
3,971
I'm older than you kiddo. I'm in 20s you're some immature and arrogant teeny. No one is forcing you to like esports, everyone can say 'I don't like it' but saying everyone who does it is stupid - childish and HILARIOUS! It's like Chess but with a lot more moves, it is actually like saying everyone who plays Chess is stupid. I ask you, who is saying it? Some NOBODY who doesn't even understand esports, the game, patches?

You talk about balance? Ok I posted in normal manner why you are wrong, you are too inexperienced having played so little to talk about balance. Even I do not have that right or else it's pointless - I see where I am weak and I try to improve. You are CASUAL (even stopped playing as you say) and yet you argue about balance? Last time you played was early game/beta thus the game is bad? Whoa, Hai Thar Mr BRAINIAC

Do you even have a slight idea how much shit in your comment 'Those who have a brain don't like esports'. You are stupid, don't talk about my intelligence, I have it, see yourself, see your silly posts, see your arguments. You even continue to argue about things you do not understand, you proved it again, and again, and again.

Also I told you English is not my native. And yet it is quite understandable? Don't make these pointless notes, whenever I'm doing an exam on Writing I am careful, as for you on a f-o-r-u-m, it's hardly worth it. I type fast, I don't care did I miss a comma or did I change the word order.

Also your tactic to provoke people so that they look bad while you talk shit with insulting a whole community will not help you.

DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT THINGS FOR WHICH YOU DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH COMPETENCY

It's wrong and you look foolish, you proved it so many times! Keep your dislikes to yourself, don't call people doing things you don't like 'no brainers' especially when they have more brain than you.
 
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Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
Level 64
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
27,246
The news I saw a few weeks ago did not yield those results. Perhaps I am judging the game off of defunct data. Comparing that data to the lower level leagues also yields far more staggering results. Some really funky balance stuff happens on the lower levels, so check out some examples on YouTube or something before you tell me that lower-level play doesn't matter. That's like saying people who play on leagues lower than Masters don't matter, and I'm sure they would take offence to that.
You balance games for the best of players, not for the worst of players. Especially since StarCraft II is a professional game, it would be stupid if lower leagues were balanced as it will mean that higher leagues are not. This is the number one rule of game design which all good companies follow.

On the subject of who I am to talk balance, I am someone who has beta tested every one of Blizzard's games since 2002, when I beta tested WarCraft III's expansion and witnessed quite a few changes to balance. I have quite a few years looking at this stuff under my belt. I would think my opinion should carry some weight, since I also beta tested StarCraft II. In my opinion, they had a bit better balance back then.
I also beta tested StarCraft II. The actual beta was for testing server capacities and getting ballence feedback from professional players. Unless you have the skill to use what you are given fully, you cannot make any comment on how to change it.

I am against interns in Blizzard games because they have shown to significantly reduce the enjoyment I get from playing a game. Interns made me want to toss my monitor out the window while modding StarCraft and it's expansion. Interns made me extremely frustrated trying to change around sound assets in Diablo II. Interns made me laugh in horrific disbelief at the backward systems of WarCraft III's trigger and camera settings. Interns made me cry a wittle bit on da inside when I played StarCraft II's campaign. What did interns do so wrong in this game, though?
You are aware that those systems were all designed by full time Blizzard employees? Most specifically they were designed by the people employed as directors and designers / software engineers. Interns have to follow what they get told to do which is all decided by those guys. No company it its right mind would allow inters the direct final word over the design of a product (the people responsible will at least review such ideas in which case they become their decision).

Interns did most of the voice acting. That was cringe-worthy.
Not in StarCraft II and Diablo III. Those are all professional full-time voice actors. Especially Deckard Cain.

Interns made the new data editor a helluva lot more complicated than it had to be. I would have preferred WarCraft III's, with more assets to configure. The new way might have one or two new options, but sacrificing those so I could lose the 'let's create 1240890 other things to make one new unit' thing. That'd be real nice.
Blizzard is not responsible that some people lack the qualifications to use their tools. Any university graduate could pick up the tool and learn how to do most things in a few hours.

You see, unless an intern really loves his or her role, they have no reason to do a good job on their product. The company will get rid of them after a while, and they know it. That's got to have been it, I think. Either that, or interns aren't responsible for this at all, and I should be blaming the actual in-house Blizzard development team for all of my complaints. You yourself told me not to do that, so...
All code commits they perform are checked over by full time members of staff before being allowed into the game. You should be blaming the people that are full time staff for any problems and not the people they get for a few weeks.

Why? The Phoenix has very few natural air encounters, and can't engage ground units. Why does it need a bonus to its weapon range? That just makes it more ridiculous, and means Protoss players have one more thing to waste money on.
It makes it the ultimate counter to Mutalisks. Before you had to hover dangerously close to the weapon range of Mutalisks to hit them which allowed them to get the odd shot off while now you can keep your distance and watch the Mutalisks melt while never being able to touch you. Also makes them more effective against all other air units that they are not designed to counter.

Cementing the role of the Ghost as a Templar killer only makes it more imbalanced against Protoss. Snipe already decided the battle of Terran balls against Protoss balls. Lighten up on the Protoss balls, will you, Blizzard?
Seeing as there are very few "Psionic" units in the game this was a major nerf for the Ghost. It will no longer be able to snipe down Brood Lords, Infesters, Hydralisks, and most air units. Snipe now is virtually useless against Zerg. It still keeps its role as a High Templar killer but you must remember that 1 feedback from a high templar will kill a fully charged Ghost so it is still a show down of micro. It is mildly more effective against Sentries and other Ghosts as they are the only other Psionic units that see real use (Archons are too buff for Snipe and Dark Templars are specialist units).

Blinker rushes were not unstoppable, and Terran players could easily get their free scan box (or, you know, fucking scout or something) and adapt well before Blink is researched. One could also easily anticipate that something is up from the lack of contact that is associated with this type of rush/cheese/pasta/whatever else you like to call it.
This has nothing to do with "Blink Rushers". It was to delay Blink micro which could be used to reduce Stalker loss by blinking heavily damaged Stalkers into the back before being killed so they remained in combat dealing damage while the enemy would change target to a full health stalker. Especially early game this is very devastating as you can keep Stalker casualties very low which give you a large army advantage. Play StarCraft Masters custom map if you want to see how effective Blink micro management is as that has many exercises to show off how powerful Blink is. This includes how Blink can counter tanks in Siege mode, how to kill large armies of Roaches with no losses and how to win against overwhelming odds with the help of Blink.

The Infestor has been the single most changed-up unit in the game. It is ridiculous. That being said, this particular change makes the ability very hard to execute unless the Zerg player can stop microing and burrow-move into the designated enemies, and THEN cast the spell. No need for that, thank you.
Was required to prevent you from using Infesters to snipe out every single strong unit when on an offensive. 5 Infesters against 7 Thors and the Infesters would win easily. Neural Parasite is still very good but the low range makes if very risky to execute. Remember that the range is only for casting, once cast there is no limit to the range (at least I think so) so you can retreat the Infesters.

Brood Lords and Overseers make short work of Ghosts...
Now, yes, but not in the past. A single Ghost could snipe out a Brood Lord very easily and in professional play you are lucky to see more than just a few Brood Lords. Now with the damage nerf to Snipe that no longer happens as it takes about twice as many casts of Snipe to kill a Brood Lord. In fact Ghosts are useless against Zerg with exception of EMP which is useful against Infesters to kill their Energy.

Until you post some actual useful evidence that does not prove what I am saying you will be better to not post at all.
 
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