Nobody asked for your opinions about the Mods.

[Red]

As well as staying brief and to-the-point, I'm going to restrain myself from turning this page into a ramble of emotional or opinionated points. The following is an outline of facts, and unbiased observations based off of said facts. Anyone in the habit of arguing with or denying things for the hell of it may want to stop right here.

That being said, there's a false feeling of entitlement brooding amongst many members here on the hive. People feel that their submissions - models, skins, spells, etc. are being unfairly rejected due to a perceived regime of higher-ups and moderators who are abusing their privileges by creating an exclusive, closed-in community that no newcomers are able to participate in.

Though certainly a symbol of great accomplishment, the position of moderator is still, at its core, a job with a purpose to serve. A moderator is expected to evaluate and give advice to his fellow users concerning their works, and to reject sub-par, useless, or redundant resources when necessary.

The fate that would befall Hive if no such filtering system were in place is clear to see on the other wc3 sites out there: wc3sear.ch became overburdened with resources due to lenient moderating and was ultimately shut down. "The Russian Site", which has essentially no moderation whatsoever, is so clogged up with ripped models and simple geomerge edits that honest modelers and skinners that prefer the satisfaction of making resources by hand stand no chance of competing with professionally- made assets stolen from other games.

Hive moderators are not simply decorated users, they are users among us who have defined a standard of useful, quality resources, and have taken up the responsibility to uphold that standard to and to ensure that the site does not become cluttered with unfairly ripped resources, or that the bandwidth is not burdened by redundant or poor quality resources.

Now, to the "revolutionaries" - Whether or not you believe in the existence of a perceived dynasty among hive's staff, the fact still stands that the Hive Workshop is not - and was never advertized as - a democracy. This is a privately owned site and even the most generous of donors like The World Is Flat will be able to tell you they have no final say in what does or does not happen in the site. Using this site is a privilege that can be taken away from you at any time for any reason that Ralle or those who act on his behalf deem necessary. The site is free to use so long as you adhere to the rules which are posted very clearly for anyone to read - there's no clauses in small text binding you to any sort of contract, and by using the site you agree to these terms.

Simply put, the Hive does not need you. If you don't agree with the way the site operates, nobody is forcing you to stay.

That being said, we would be so much better off If we shed these childish, paranoid notions of some sort of illuminati amongst our ranks and worked as one big team toward an even better Hive.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Exactly. This site is not a democracy. If you don't like the way it's run then get the fuck out.

 

[Direfury]

I can't wait to see someone make a communism joke.

 

[GIANT_CRAB]

We

Spoiler

DON'T

need your useless/ripped/stolen resource.
And also you MUST read the rules before uploading things.
When hive asked if you read the rules when your submitting a resource.
Some people just put, yes, i read the rules... even when they even read a single bit of it.
And yes, moderators are here for a reason, to destroy/remove all your

Spoiler

useless

things.
And if you don't care about the rules or moderators, please, the door is big opened for you to leave hive.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

Extreme thread misplacement

There has GOT to be a more appropriate place for this thread, actually this could be useful as an announcement at the top of the page.

Also note that because nobody asked, doesn't mean nobody's going to say anything, the title seems a bit off the point.

 

[PurplePoot]

About wc3search's death: it died because darky had no money to pay for the servers, not because of being overburdened by resources. Trash resources are still stored on THW even if they are 'deleted'/rejected.

About xgm: a little bit of a side rant, but who gives a shit if "honest modelers and skinners" can't compete with "simple geomerges". From the mapper's perspective the best looking model/skin/whatever is ideal (within ethical guidelines that is) so if freehand artists can't compete with geomerges then they need to step up their work's quality or get with the times. Speaking of senses of entitlement, I'm sick of artists demanding respect just because their work was "from scratch" and deriding anyone who chooses to follow alternate routes to create (often more) useful content.

 

[Fussiler1]

And what if a moderator abuses his/her privileges?

 

[Direfury]

Or antagonizes a member. I've always thought of moderators as reasonable authority figures.

Moderators here, from my perspective, are the final reviewers of your resources, deliverers of the verdicts on controversial statements made by users in their domain, and act as peacekeepers. If someone gets antagonized, they usually leave, or rise up, which causes drama, which in turn disturbs the peace.


The only 'freedoms' a moderator really has are those to act in authority over other members. The only real way that can be used is to, say, reject a users resources or ideas outright, or punish them for something extremely minor. As I said, that is antagonism, which goes against the idea of being a peacekeeper. Antagonistic moderators here are few and far between, and the one I've noticed resigned, and is no longer active here.

 

[Vengeancekael]

Hive moderators are not simply decorated users, they are users among us who have defined a standard of useful, quality resources, and have taken up the responsibility to uphold that standard to and to ensure that the site does not become cluttered with unfairly ripped resources

That's so nice of them, but how about they actually write good reviews for maps and rate them instead of just quickly approving/rejecting maps that only respect the rules.

I seriously don't care if the amount of pending maps is increasing each day, they should rather be reviewed, not just quickly checked.

 

[Direfury]

It should depend on the map or the submission in general.

A melee map shouldn't be getting a longer review than a full on campaign.

 

[Devine]

Guys, don't listen to them. Together we can turn this site into a democracy!

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

About xgm: a little bit of a side rant, but who gives a shit if "honest modelers and skinners" can't compete with "simple geomerges". From the mapper's perspective the best looking model/skin/whatever is ideal (within ethical guidelines that is) so if freehand artists can't compete with geomerges then they need to step up their work's quality or get with the times. Speaking of senses of entitlement, I'm sick of artists demanding respect just because their work was "from scratch" and deriding anyone who chooses to follow alternate routes to create (often more) useful content.

I agree with that. Once, an academic teacher of ours said, and I agree with her, 'artists expect that people should be bowing before them', well get down to Earth and understand you have to learn to accept no cares about you or your work. Especially when you're a fun modeler/maker not somebody known to the world. And I don't mean that people's work should be recklessly used and stolen because they are nobody but just - don't expect people to worship you for your work, no one's obliged.

 

[Mechanical Man]

"The Russian Site", which has essentially no moderation whatsoever, is so clogged up with ripped models and simple geomerge edits that honest modelers and skinners that prefer the satisfaction of making resources by hand stand no chance of competing with professionally- made assets stolen from other games.

I disagree. There is some thread where you have to post the model before getting approved http://xgm.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=5825 . Yes, I admit there are not really without rips (I don't support this). I agree that this is quite cumbersome method and hive has better, but saying that there is no moderation is not right. I submitted a model there, so I know what I am talking about. And geomerges are also necessary many times, there is no need to do stuff always. from scratch. However it seems number of rips submitted are decreasing there.

 

[Direfury]

If rips are abolished from that site, one wonders how far ahead it could go.

 

[RiotZ]

Silly Red Shift
What a horribly silly point to make Red Shift. Most people are not against the site itself, they love the site, they are against the moderators. And rightfully so, generally the mods handle things poorly. The amount of idiocy you emit by bringing up the point only causes this to be more and more common.

Examples
During the second world war, some Germans were with their country, but against their leaders. There is a difference, and there is no need to accept the desecration of your homeland by irreverent leaders. That is why polls are held, to keep the mods, and Ralle from doing things that they would probably later regret. It may not be a Democracy, but it sure as hell isn't Communism.

XGM
XGM requires a model approval process to be fulfilled; yes the site is filled with rips, but I have never seen a simple geomerge edit, and I support rips, if using rips means you can finish your project effectively then so be it, use them.

 

[Devine]

XGM
XGM requires a model approval process to be fulfilled; yes the site is filled with rips, but I have never seen a simple geomerge edit, and I support rips, if using rips means you can finish your project effectively then so be it, use them.

Some of my models are on that site, submitted by someone else. He's getting credit for my work.
Really...

 

[RiotZ]

Some of my models are on that site, submitted by someone else. He's getting credit for my work.
Really...

It is a bit illegitimate yes, but that is really beside the point. We shouldn't be zeroing in on sites other than THW anyway.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

Well also note that as mods you are authority figures and part of the public image of the site, if everyone seems to hate the mods, they have every right to voice those opinions, stupid, paranoid and silly as they may be. Simply put, anyone in a position of power accumulates haters over time, if you have power - someone hates you for it. Whether or not the reasons they come up with are justified, or a device created to justify their hatred of you having power, it's to be expected they'll voice their opinions, and of course anyone who voices their opinion is bound to get people agreeing with it. So the occasional "viva la revolucion" thread is simply something to be expected, let them vent their anger, or if necessary - ban them, because as you said, you don't need them.

 

[I)eath2u4me]

I agree about the increase of pending maps and not caring about them. I think as long as everything is organized there should be no problems. I also agree that they should be thoroughly reviewed by Map Moderators. If there comes a point where too many people are complaining, then find more Map Mods, otherwise live and let live.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Yup. definetly. this is right on.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Well also note that as mods you are authority figures and part of the public image of the site, if everyone seems to hate the mods, they have every right to voice those opinions, stupid, paranoid and silly as they may be. Simply put, anyone in a position of power accumulates haters over time, if you have power - someone hates you for it. Whether or not the reasons they come up with are justified, or a device created to justify their hatred of you having power, it's to be expected they'll voice their opinions, and of course anyone who voices their opinion is bound to get people agreeing with it. So the occasional "viva la revolucion" thread is simply something to be expected, let them vent their anger, or if necessary - ban them, because as you said, you don't need them.

Ah but you see therein lies the point.

No one has any rights as far as speech is concerned on this site. This site is a service to you. There are no rights other than general legal rights. We are basically all just feeding off of what ralle is maintaining.

You can not equate the site to any form of government because it is not a government. Its a guy paying for a site (might as well call him god in this case) and he is getting people to do shit for him so he doesn't have to do it himself (those would be mods). One of the biggest problems is that users think that being a mod is somehow a good thing. A mod is essentially a user doing favors for Ralle.

Silly Red Shift
What a horribly silly point to make Red Shift. Most people are not against the site itself, they love the site, they are against the moderators. And rightfully so, generally the mods handle things poorly. The amount of idiocy you emit by bringing up the point only causes this to be more and more common.

Most of that was flamebate. Don't expect a response from him.

And no. There is a major problem with the people on this site. I don't know where you've been but people complain about every single little thing here. I know of sites with mods that are horribly worse than the ones here and no one gives a shit because its not their problem. If they don't like it they leave.

A lot of people on this site complain in the hopes of looking smart and maybe just maybe becoming a mod themselves. The users vs mods mentality is a retarded thing indeed.

Examples
During the second world war, some Germans were with their country, but against their leaders. There is a difference, and there is no need to accept the desecration of your homeland by irreverent leaders. That is why polls are held, to keep the mods, and Ralle from doing things that they would probably later regret. It may not be a Democracy, but it sure as hell isn't Communism.

Again you cant use governments as an example. Mods and admins are not leaders. At all. You need to stop thinking that. There is no hierarchy. There is no homeland. There is a site that you can choose to go to or not. Ralle is not a leader. He is god. He has absolute power. If he wants to make pink ponies all over the place he can. If he wants your avatars to all be penises he can. He owns the fucking site.

A better example is to just look at the site history. A year or so ago I remember just about every thread in the site discussion was about how terrible the mods are. It was an awful mess and nothing ever got done.

Wether or not they are terrible is irrelevant. The fact that you feel entitled to good mods is laughable. And even more laughable is the fact that you think you have the "right" to voice your opinion. Its a site. Owned by a dude. We are leeches. If he or the people he appoints to do shit for him doesn't like what you say they have the 'right' to ban your ass.

Now on the other hand you can make the argument that complaining about the mods alerts ralle to the awfulness of their actions. If this is the case then send him a fucking PM. Or use the goddamn admin contact thread. Dont make a thread in site discussion about how you hate x mod and expect shit to get done. Even if it does get done you still have to deal with the massive bandwagon of angry users you get. And as we all know, once you create a bandwagon, even if you solve their problem the bandwagon is still there, ready to shit in someone else's cereal.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

Ah but you see therein lies the point.

No one has any rights as far as speech is concerned on this site. This site is a service to you. There are no rights other than general legal rights. We are basically all just feeding off of what ralle is maintaining.

You can not equate the site to any form of government because it is not a government. Its a guy paying for a site (might as well call him god in this case) and he is getting people to do shit for him so he doesn't have to do it himself (those would be mods). One of the biggest problems is that users think that being a mod is somehow a good thing. A mod is essentially a user doing favors for Ralle.

Well you are absolutely right, the people who run a website have every right to be censureship nazi's as much as they please, but that works against them, that only works to create the whole illuminati, the mods hate you, elitist impressions that drives the whole viva la revolution movement that's bound to happen in sites that gain a large user base.

 

[Direfury]

It isn't so much User Vs. Mod, such as User Vs. Specific Moderator(s)

For example, many people would have gripes against Mini-Me, should he still be around, mainly because of his antagonistic attitude. As I've said aswell, the internet does not equate America, therefore their amendments and laws only apply should those laws also apply to countries containing other people interacting with said Americans. But as to what I was saying, I personally find Kimberly far more stand-offish than before, but harbour no ill will to her. Mecheon's whole shtick was to be borderline sociopathic in his interactions with others, which led to much entertainment.

It's all in how a moderator handles himself/herself. From what I've witnessed, both DonDustin and Pyritie both do excellent jobs as moderators, as does Kimberly. Aggressiveness is what distances people from the staff, how and how much.

What a site needs every time, is to have a laid back, though effective and decisive staff, and they can avoid 'User Vs Mod' problems. As the 'Head Moderator' of another forum for a number of years, I've noticed this work to wonderful degree. Of course, this little bit here is simply my observations heading a moderation team I could pick and choose from.

 

[PurplePoot]

It isn't so much User Vs. Mod, such as User Vs. Specific Moderator(s)

For example, many people would have gripes against Mini-Me, should he still be around, mainly because of his antagonistic attitude. As I've said aswell, the internet does not equate America, therefore their amendments and laws only apply should those laws also apply to countries containing other people interacting with said Americans. But as to what I was saying, I personally find Kimberly far more stand-offish than before, but harbour no ill will to her. Mecheon's whole shtick was to be borderline sociopathic in his interactions with others, which led to much entertainment.

It's all in how a moderator handles himself/herself. From what I've witnessed, both DonDustin and Pyritie both do excellent jobs as moderators, as does Kimberly. Aggressiveness is what distances people from the staff, how and how much.

What a site needs every time, is to have a laid back, though effective and decisive staff, and they can avoid 'User Vs Mod' problems. As the 'Head Moderator' of another forum for a number of years, I've noticed this work to wonderful degree. Of course, this little bit here is simply my observations heading a moderation team I could pick and choose from.

While I mostly agree with you, it's more of a recent trend with regards to sam and py. In addition, speaking from personal experience while there are certainly some mods who (perhaps deservedly) attract hate there are a lot of cases in which a general anti-mod sympathy is created by some user or other.

 

[Direfury]

It's mostly my dislike of the 'slap on the wrist' punishment style going on here, where flamebaiting Users suffer far worse than any supposed current staff members doing the exact same thing. It's been my general experience that the situation is reversed, and irresponsible moderators were punished more severely for abusing their status.

On an unrelated note, I may have to quote everything you say. It seems that the forums are slightly bugged, as the messages all cut off after the Multiquote button to the side.

 

[En_Fuego]

To be honest, I don't see why a map moderator needs to review your map. Their job is to make sure a map either works/abides by the rules or not. They generally tell you if it breaks the rules or why it violates the Hive's policies.

If you want a review, go to the Development section.

 

[Direfury]

Hm, that might do well as a guideline in the submission page. Keeping reviews on glitches and other problems to the submission itself, and gameplay reviews to the Development forum.

 

[En_Fuego]

Hm, that might do well as a guideline in the submission page. Keeping reviews on glitches and other problems to the submission itself, and gameplay reviews to the Development forum.

I'm not proposing that at all.

I'm simply pointing out that in the current situation at the Hiveworkshop, no moderator is obligated to give out a massive review of any map. Their job is solely to make sure it abides by the Hive's policies and rules.

It's not like the map will get rejected if it's a 2. In fact, it's given the same accepted status as if it were a 5.

As it is, there's a section on the Hive specifically designed for you to get feedback. So isn't that where you should go to get your review? Why do you need to bother the moderators with a full review? They just need to make sure your map follows the rules.

 

[PurplePoot]

Every time mods do full reviews people complain that not enough stuff gets reviewed, so mods do shorter reviews etc and then people complain that reviews aren't good enough ad infinitum.

 

[Mr. Bob]

It isn't so much User Vs. Mod, such as User Vs. Specific Moderator(s)

For example, many people would have gripes against Mini-Me, should he still be around, mainly because of his antagonistic attitude. As I've said aswell, the internet does not equate America, therefore their amendments and laws only apply should those laws also apply to countries containing other people interacting with said Americans. But as to what I was saying, I personally find Kimberly far more stand-offish than before, but harbour no ill will to her. Mecheon's whole shtick was to be borderline sociopathic in his interactions with others, which led to much entertainment.

It's all in how a moderator handles himself/herself. From what I've witnessed, both DonDustin and Pyritie both do excellent jobs as moderators, as does Kimberly. Aggressiveness is what distances people from the staff, how and how much.

What a site needs every time, is to have a laid back, though effective and decisive staff, and they can avoid 'User Vs Mod' problems. As the 'Head Moderator' of another forum for a number of years, I've noticed this work to wonderful degree. Of course, this little bit here is simply my observations heading a moderation team I could pick and choose from.

I can agree with a lot of that but keep in mind it is a problem on both sides.

Mods will be dicks just as much as users will, because mods are basically users who have to do shit. The problem is that users have a habit of starting unnecessary bandwagons by making threads in public places (not like this thread mind you as it is directed at anyone and everyone, and not a single mod/person) that basically focus in on one mod. The maker generally says a long spew of things that basically can be translated as, "hey I hate this mod! Do you hate this mod? Hell yeah lets all rage at him!".

There is an admin contact forum for a reason. If a situation is going to be evaluated relatively painlessly it really should be between the user making the complaint, the admins, and the mod in question.

I noticed you mentioned how well of a job Pyritie does, which is true. But, just a couple of months ago basically everything Pyritie ever did as a mod was met with massive disapproval from the community. It was fine at first because lets be honest, cinnamon roll icons are stupid. But, because it was constantly discussed in public, a bandwagon grew to such epic proportions that he couldn't really do anything without being met with a wall of raging users.

In other words, yes your absolutely right that mods can be notty. But, making a public thread about it is an awful idea. Also, aggressiveness works that way on both sides, because each side is essentially the same.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Yes, so we are met with a dilemma, we want somone to blame, and the mods seem like good people to blame, even though they have nothing to do with anything aside from be helpful people entitled to their oppinions.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Yes, so we are met with a dilemma, we want somone to blame, and the mods seem like good people to blame, even though they have nothing to do with anything aside from be helpful people entitled to their oppinions.

In the sarcastic mood today hmm?

Anyway, that wasn't my point at all. My point is everyone (users/admins) are going to be dicks. There is no way around that. Its how we handle that dickship that matters. And starting bandwagons is not the way to do it.

Oh, and on the subject of opinions.

No one is entitled the right to express any opinions. Your not entitled to anything. At all. Not on an internet site owned by someone else. Again thats part of the whole point of this thread. Your allowed to express your opinions.

 

[The World Is Flat]

True, my bad, and i was referancing the scapegoat conundrum.

Whereas, people feel like they deserve somthing they can't have, so they blame somone who has somthing they think is better than what they got. i.e. life or online difficulties translating into viva la revolution.

 

[Direfury]

It's more or less that some mods are far less honorable and willing to use their position of trust to do things that are not acceptable, just as some users take their sense of entitlement much too far and abuse their privelages.

The key word here is some. There's a given chance of such an authority figure showing up everywhere, but they best way to solve it is to evaluate a person before promoting them.

 

[GhostThruster]

If they're normal users, why can't they be more of a, you know, people person? I think alot of them do their jobs (and well), but they're just plain unpleasant.

 

[Direfury]

If they're normal users, why can't they be more of a, you know, people person? I think alot of them do their jobs (and well), but they're just plain unpleasant.

There's always going to be equal blame on both sides unless one takes the initiative to change them both.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Apparently common courtesy isnt in their job description.

 

[GhostThruster]

If moderators are nice to people, people will be nice to them. You could say vice versa, but, do many normal users behave that badly to them? I myself have never antagonised one (at least on purpose), and I think many people in this thread haven't either.

@TWIF: It ain't, but it is one of the factors that leads to people hating them, which was part of the discussion.

 

[Direfury]

However, as stated, they are users with responsibilities here at the Hive. the key point is that they are Users and are subject to, if not more strictly bound to the rules and regulations set in place. Atleast that is how it should be.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Yes yes, but does it even matter? not really.

 

[Direfury]

Well it does if a moderator becomes a disruption or a problem for others.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Yes, but does that matter? users are disruptive, they dont get punished, just flamed (sometimes by mods, somtimes not)

 

[GhostThruster]

True, it doesn't matter, but, like I said, it only makes things worse.

They should do their jobs, and have a high standard, but there's no pain in just being nicer to the users. There's a difference between:
"GhosT: What the hell are you thinking? I think you've put more effort into uploading the map than the map itself. The terrain makes me puke, the code is horrible, and it crashed my computer 5 minutes in. -2/5, Rejected."
and...
"GhosT: This map is lacking. You could have put in some more effort. For instance, the terrain could use some touch-ups, like the trees in the top-left. The triggers were made pretty badly, and there was a major bug that crashed my PC.
Sorry, but as of now, I can't approve. Rejected."
Most, MOST mods say the latter, but there are some unpleasant ones that say the former. Ofcourse, an example, and as such, doesn't apply to the maps section only. Those comments don't exist btw...

 

[Direfury]

Well, it keeps the peace, which is beneficial to both parties.

 

[I)eath2u4me]

I think a lot of it has to do with people being the way I used to be, as an example (high ego, ignorance, self-indulgence, ect.). People don't like to hear anything negative or anything against them, even if it is presented in a nice formal matter, it's human nature and can't be helped. But they can at least try to be a little more respectful. I think another problem is that, yes some Mod's are terrible (no offense), but find a way to deal with it. I don't agree with leaving the site if you don't like it, just be the bigger person and move on.

 

[RiotZ]

It's just fucking stupid to argue about such a god awful idiotic retarded point like this. Complaining isn't going to fix shit okay people!? The mods are going to continue to do what they do.. And the users are going to continue to complain! So stfu about it everyone! Mr Bob said don't compare to governments or countries!? It is exactly like the dysfunctional country of America which I live in. The government pulls the strings, and the people only think their complaining makes a difference.

If you are so sure that the mods don't give a shit then what difference will all of your complaining make? Not the slightest bit. This whole is issue is a crock, it causes users to flame and mods to go gung-ho on their asses. The more we continue to make this an issue the more it will be one.

There is nothing wrong with the mods or the site, it's the idiotic- "immature" as TWIF described them, members.

 

[I)eath2u4me]

I agree with complaining not fixing anything, to a point. It could possibly make things better but it could also make things a whole hell of a lot worse. I say we just let them bitch and get banned, now that I think about it. If they wanna be that dumb as to go overboard on a mod, so be it.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Agreed, IT doesent matter if they get crabby, they do what is asked of them, other than that, they are just users.

 

[Mr. Bob]

It's just fucking stupid to argue about such a god awful idiotic retarded point like this. Complaining isn't going to fix shit okay people!? The mods are going to continue to do what they do.. And the users are going to continue to complain! So stfu about it everyone! Mr Bob said don't compare to governments or countries!? It is exactly like the dysfunctional country of America which I live in. The government pulls the strings, and the people only think their complaining makes a difference.

If you are so sure that the mods don't give a shit then what difference will all of your complaining make? Not the slightest bit. This whole is issue is a crock, it causes users to flame and mods to go gung-ho on their asses. The more we continue to make this an issue the more it will be one.

There is nothing wrong with the mods or the site, it's the idiotic- "immature" as TWIF described them, members.

Its like...you didn't even read my post. Also your concept of American governmental affairs is naive.

 

[RiotZ]

Its like...you didn't even read my post. Also your concept of American governmental affairs is naive.

It's not naive. The affairs of my government are affected very little to none at all.