Magic The Gathering TCG 0.96c beta

[Moderator]

19:22, 6th Mar 2010
ap0calypse: Approved

 

[Hevenblood]

I will try this. Looks cool.

 

[Eikonium]

Unfortunately it is not possible to playtest this map alone (but you can surely get a first impression ).
Some day, I will add AI-players to the map.

 

[Wazzz]

Um... what version of Warcraft was this map made with? I just ask because it doesn't work for me and I don't have the latest patch (prlly won't implement it until I get my project done, either) :/
Shame, tho, looked really good to me

 

[Eikonium]

This map requires 1.24 to work, because it uses hashtables which came up with this patch.
I recommend having a dual installation of warcraft.
One for playing in bnet and development with hashtables (1.24) and one for development with grimoire (1.21) and playing older maps with friends.

Just copy&paste your warcraft3-folder and update only one version

 

[EMPerror]

well, i tried hosting this a couple of times but barely anyone joined. So, i'd really appreciate it if you add AI to the map

 

[Eikonium]

Thats what I also noticed in the last days.
I'm wondering about, because I never had a problem getting full house (with a title which contains "Magic The Gathering") before.

Hopefully, you have better luck in the future

P.S.: I definitely add AI to the map, but I need time for the development. I don't recommend waiting for it

 

[Velex]

I enjoyed it. Playing by myself.
I'll comment again once I get a game going with a friend.

I do like that a deck is only like 10 cards. The other Wc3 card games are annoying that I have to pick like 50 cards that I don't really even know what they do.

 

[Eikonium]

I tried to profit by the disadvantages of other card style maps, ie the tendence to be confusing and not newbie-friendly. The low number of needed cards was one of a few solutions for that, although many people don't seem to notice the possibility of playing with only 10 cards (or generally less than 22 cards, as i noticed in bnet games). Besides, one can build much better combinations with less cards

Thanks alot, awaiting your final feedback

 

[Velex]

Alright, I played the game with a friend and it plays pretty well. The only thing I would suggest is to make attacks for melee units ranged (with like a short range) so that the missiles both fire and they can kill each other rather than whichever attacks first will win. Also, did you specifically rebalance some stats?, because some are different than the cards (like Vizzerdrix is a 6/6 but you made it a 40/80)

 

[Eikonium]

Alright, I played the game with a friend and it plays pretty well.
Thanks, nice to hear
The only thing I would suggest is to make attacks for melee units ranged (with like a short range) so that the missiles both fire and they can kill each other rather than whichever attacks first will win.
Not a bad idea, i will try to implement that.
Indeed, I already thought about the possibility of doing damage simultaneously, but had no idea, how. I even opened some threads for that... without success. So if your solution turns out to be good, I will definitely implement it.
Also, did you specifically rebalance some stats?, because some are different than the cards (like Vizzerdrix is a 6/6 but you made it a 40/80)
Indeed, I did. Most cards had to be slightly modified due to balancing acts or the incompatibility with a not turn-based realization. Furthermore, many creatures stats, which are mostly evenly spread in the original card game, had to be changed (decreased damage and increased hitpoints), because of the missing healthregeneration at end of turn. (I decided not to enable this regeneration, because it (imo) doesn't really fit with realtime play, as I noticed while playing "Wc3 Cardgame" (the remake of YuGiOh)).
Anyway... Once you get balancing-related or general suggestions, feel free to post them here I'm especially looking for some options making the waiting time (after you finished preparing your deck, but others didn't) less boring...

Best regards, Eikonium

 

[krisserz]

Hide screenshots with [hidden="TITLE"]SCREENSHOTS[/hidden]

 

[Eikonium]

Thx. Done.

Edit: Changelog for 0.96b:

Most important changes:

• Drawn cards aren't anymore choosed completely at random. Instead, a virtual deck is created at the beginning of a round. This ensures that each card is drawn in the same amount.
• Added Extended Mode, allowing players to add a card from 1 to 4 times to their deck, varying the draw-probabilities of the cards.
• Added a text-navigation-menu for player 1, helping him to choose valid gamemodes at the beginning of the game.
• (Thx to Velex) Melee Creatures now attack simoultaneously so that they can kill each other.
• Added a second row of Cardshops, offering exactly the same cards as the first row did, but in a different sorting. The new row is sorted per function (manareg, creature control, damage dealing etc.)
• You don't need the blood of humpback whales for playing.

Other changes

• added new precast decks
• synchronized mana of some artifacts (Centaur Glade, Dragon Roost, Mirari) with the cardholder's mana.
• Much more things

 

[GONZALORD]

Omg!!! ITS A COOL MAP MAN. I TRY IT AND I THINK ITS REALLY COOL

 

[Mandrilx]

Centaur glade thing is broken, you can mega mass centaurs for 30 mana otherwise good game.

 

[Dougletron]

Hey i am a long player of MTG and i love this map however there is a huge bug with Centaur Glade atm. Apparently you did not trigger the shared mana property and centaur glade can essentially have infinite mana at most points in the game which basically means Centaur Glade = you win the game with mass centaurs.

I suggest to just give the centaur glade ability to the card holder as long as they control a centaur glade to save you some coding and make the map more efficient (not that is has efficiency problems). You may want to look over other cards that have similar properties as i did not test those (Dragon Roost, Mirari).

Other Misc Info & opinions & cards id like to see:
-Maybe set the max life of card holder to 1000 but set their life to 200 at the beginning this way life gain can be more fun.
-Maybe rename WoG to Damnation only because the icon resembles Damnation more .
-Niv-Mizzet would be a good addition to this game.
-Death's Shadow i think would also be funny.
-Pestilence/Pyrohemia.
-Shahrazad. (lol j/k)
-True Believer
-Pariah's Shield
-Cruel Ultimatum
-Quietus Spike
-Lorescale Coatl
-Lavalanche (30 mana + rest of mana in mana pool = the dmg done)
-Maelstrom Pulse
-Child of Alara
-Some walls. (Aether Membrane, Wall of Frost, Wall of Bone (give them like 10 secs to regenerate it before it dies), Wall of Denial (magic immunity))

If you want any help with this map leme know, i am a vJASSer but can also use GUI. Would be glad to help but you're doing an awesome job alone on it so far.

 

[Eikonium]

Thx for your feedback.

The Centaur Glade Bug (which never occured to me in my tests, although there was a huge mistake in my code) is now fixed, I will post the bugfixed version in the next days. Indeed, Mirari and Dragon Roost had the same problem, because all of them have been synchronized by one single trigger.

• Cardholder's max life: indeed, one should be able to increase the life points beyond the current max. value of 200. Unfortunately, this would heavily increase the strength of healing spells, maybe leading to some not-ending games. Furthermore, if I change the max life to a fix value, your life display will always tell you that you're nearly dead, because you only have around 1/5 of your max life.
  As a compromise, I could just implement a card which increases a cardholder's max life?
• I would rather change the Icon of Wrath of God than renaming the card to Damnation But thats of course doable.
• Niv-Mizzet: Good idea! How would you exactly implement him?
• Death's Shadow: Cool idea! Will be different to implement, but I'll do my best
• Pestilance: this card is already on the to-do-list.
• True Believer, Pariahs Shield, Lorescale Coatl: Ok.
• Cruel Ultimatum: Funny, I will implement it. I anyway wanted to have more multicolored InstantSorcerys.
• Quietus Spike: would be completely broken, because you can equip a creature anytime in game, even if it is going to attack the enemy cardholder in the next few seconds. The only solution for that would be a horrible high manacost, but... argh!
• Lavalanche: very difficult to balance. In contrast to the MtG cardgame, you easily get enough mana (especially in teamgames) to shoot a bolt for 170 damage. One could limit the max damage to something around 80, but even then... If you have any idea on this, plz tell me.
• Maelstrom Pulse: would be the alternative to Vindicate. Maybe for the same manacosts? First of all, I will keep an eye on some games to find out, how often it comes that a creature or artifact has multiple instances in play.
• Child of Alara: funny and perhaps a bit senseless Anyway, I can implement it.
• Walls: Good idea . I really need some!

Finally, I want to thank you for your offering to help me with the development of the map. I have too many goals to manage them all alone, because I'm not that often avaible because of my studies in math and computer science.
Some of the future goals are:

• Further modes (examples: Highlander -> each deck must consist of exactly 22 cards, all added once to your deck (alternative to Simple Mode and Extended Mode); Colored Mode -> colors play a role, like in the original cardgame (see implementation of lands below); Shuffle Teams -> your teammates vary in the progress of the game)
• (Probably Removal of the Stationary cards) and implementation of lands. Lands won't be that necessary as they are in MtG, but very useful though. They shall increase your cardholders manaregeneration for 5 or 10 per round and allow you to play according colored cards in Colored Mode (means i.e. that you first need a Mountain to play a Mogg Fanatic). In Colored Mode, I will ensure that each cardholder gets at least one land card in his start hand, so that he can actually play something in his hand
• Addition of optical effects for some strong or often-played cards. Especially with Wrath of God and some others, one can do alot
• AI-Implementation. Thats the point I would be happiest about, if someone did this. Of course, this needs some initial brainstorms, but I already have some ideas.
• More cards. I have so many cards on my To-Do-List...
• etc.

So I would be very glad to get some help. I'm using GUI, because I didn't have any ideas on programming (or the existance of Jass), when starting with the development of the map around 1 and a half year ago. Meantime, I finished my first semester in computer science and got some ideas of object-orientated programming with java (I heard, its a bit similiar with Jass). Therefore, the triggers are no feat and you will probably shake your head and cry in front of the screen
Anyway.. if you are interested to help me with one of these points above, I am glad to hear! You don't have to use GUI, but it would be easier for me to handle with.

Awaiting your decision during the next full moon at midnight under the old oak in the center park.

Regards, Eikonium

 

[Dougletron]

I would like to help implement cards more than anything else but i also have some advice regarding your goals for the map:

-First off the current modes in the game are pretty well done i think. Though there should be better communication to the player which mode was chosen because i remember the first time i played, i was able to add as many of a card as i wanted to a deck and then the second time only one of each, and i had no idea there were other modes. Maybe hold players in cinematic mode till it is chosen and then make it very clear as theres a lot of txt messages being displayed in your game and its easy to miss. I'll have to look out for this in the new version to see how well it's displayed but i dont remember seeing it the few times i've played. If i didnt see it, chances are others didn't either.

Moving on from that, i like the EDH idea but id wait on it. The colored mode isn't the best idea and i will tell you why. There is a big enough learning curve in this map and colored mode isn't going to help with that. As much as i would love to see this all play out like magic even more, there will probably be more people leaving in pub games simply because they don't want to put in the brain power to figuring all this out.

-One thing i didn't like about the game is the Stationary cards, i think you can make cards that have effects like them but i dunno, i just don't like the way they are atm. I think i know how you wanted them to be used but at the same time i think that style of a card can be implemented better. I really think Sculpting Steel should stay true to mtg and be an artifact clone. However the types of effects where you want them to copy a card you kinda have flashback for that, so using sculpting steal as a mechanic for that is just kinda duplicating that?

-AI - This will take a long time to make and its not worth it. It is a lot more fun playing against a live opponent.

I would meet you at the old oak at midnight but im afraid of werewolves. I will pm you some of my contact info so we can discuss the map more .


Edit: Oh yeah heres how i would implement some of the cards i mentioned:
-Niv-Mizzet: Everytime you draw when he is out give card holder an ability to do 10 damage to something. Track the charges on it in a variable, if Niv dies, remove that ability and set charges to 0 regardless whether or not he has finished using those charges.
-Quietus Spike would only be able to 1 shot creatures not the cardholder, just check if it is attacking a hero or not.
-Lavalanch might be too op as you said if you save up. Maybe balance it so it does (remaining mana / 2) damage. Or maybe its simply just a bad idea.
-One thing i don't like about Vindicate is that it's not true to the game. It can't take out anything on the board, just creatures and artifacts if i remember? Should include enchantments as well. Maelstrom pulse would basically be a higher cost vindicate that would destroy everything on the board that is the 'same thing' so to speak.

 

[Eikonium]

Interesting Aspects.

-I could indeed hold players in cinematic mode, until game modes are chosen and then tell everyone the truth about the current settings. The only problem about this concerns those players who are viewing the tutorial > I would have to inform everyone, who is escaping the tut. or looking it through. Maybe it would be better to implement this information with a multiboard?
In the new version, there is already a gamemode-menu at the beginning of the game, displaying to all players, what player 1 is doing. Did you play already a version with this feature?

-The decision to remove all Stationary Cards will definitely take place, as they were anyway too important for a deck (and shouldn't all cards be balanced? ). I will edit all former Stationary cards, so that they are true to the game.

-AI: Indeed takes a holy shit amount of time and I don't have any experiences on this. But mainly, this should help to balance some games with unequal teams (after a leaver), not encourage people to play against the computer. The leaver problem remains to be the biggest problem and is founded in the big learning curve, which you mentioned.
But maybe, its easier to make the smaller team as strong as the bigger team (reduce the lifepoints of the bigger team, increase the manareg of the smaller team and let them draw more cards).

-Colored Mode: Will probably fuck up pub games, as you said. Wanted to implement it for old Magic enthusiasts, because I already got some appeals, because colors don't play a role at all. The best solution is imo to implement this mode, but to advise against it in public games (I can just name the mode "Color Mode (not recommended)").

-Niv-Mizzet will be implemented exactly as you said it.
Quietus Spike: The implementation is no problem at all, we just have to do without the cardholder effect, which is too strong. But the deathtouch-ability seems to be interesting
Vindicate can already destroy everything on the board, because there exist neither lands nor enchantments in the map (the thing with lands will change until the next 'big' version). Atm, all cards, being an enchantment in the original cardgame, are stated as 'artifacts' in the map, so they can be destroyed with artifact-destroyers.
Maelstrom does maybe not need a higher mana cost, because it can also destroy friendly units in a side-effect (I admit that this rarely happens). Have to think about it

Regards, Eikonium

 

[Velex]

Just be careful with adding too many cards. Its vaguely annoying to sift through hundreds of vaguely similar cards only to just end up randomly picking a couple.

Although with colors added, a larger number of cards will work better.

Also, have you considered fiddling with the movement speeds? I'm not sure what they're set at, but it is kinda a nerf to weaker units, that in the time it takes them to run over and hit someone at the beginning of the game, the opponent will have gotten several turns worth of mana.

Like normally:
1A: plays a 1/1 for (1)
1B: plays nothing
2A: Attacks with 1/1 for 1 damage
2B: Plays nothing
3A: Attacks with 1/1 for 1 damage
3B: Plays a 3/3 for 3 mana on his third turn

By this point, the 1/1 becomes less useful (due to the defending 3/3), but has gotten in some damage due to its cheaper cost.
In your game, by the time a 1/1 was to get to the opponent, he/she could have played a 3/3 and not taken any damage, reducing effectiveness of weaker dudes.

 

[Eikonium]

The movement speed is set to a value that lets creatures need around 22 seconds (means 1 turn + short amount to play a drawn card) to reach the enemy side. This imitates the summony sickness which hinders creatures to attack at once, when they got summoned and is actually similiar to the original card game (thats the reason, why Haste is just implemented as a movement speed bonus).
In the original card game, it would be:
1A: plays a 1/1
1B: draws a card, maybe allowing him to react on the following attack
etc.

I know, that this solution sometimes allows players to defend with more extensive creatures at a point, where the original cardgame doesn't allows it
But thats not really changeable...

Also the effectivity of cheaper dudes is not as bad as youd describe it^^ The more extensive creatures, which the opponent could play, until he gets damaged for the first time, is similiar to playing a creature with +1 converted mana cost in the original card game (means that the defending player can react with a 2/2 creature in your example). But because damage is not regenerated at any time, the small creature does its job, too.
Furthermore, you only have an average amount of 40 mana per card (thats the amount of mana regenerated in 20 seconds) and you have to compensate each high-costing card with a somewhat cheaper card (often are these cheaper cards these for mana-regeneration, like Dark Ritual).

Notify me, if you got continuative remarks

And of course, I will not add thousands of cards

Update 0.96b -> 0.96c
- (hopefully) fixed the Centaur Glade bug

 

[Dougletron]

Cool im goin to test it with some friends tonight.

 

[Rangerdeaths]

Hi guy.
I find your map really great, and i'm really enjoying playing it.
However, there are some ideas i got to improve it :
I think these cards are really overpowered and break the game :
-Channel : With a deck with some healing cards, this card just means unlimited mana. It totally breaks the game. I think it would be balanced if damage cannot be healed (max hp decrease).
-Elvish pipe : You just need to summon a huge monster with exactly the good amount of mana to have a serious advantage
-"Squee" (i don't remember the real name). It's a goblin who always revive. It's troublesome because of cards like wrath of god which kills everything but that. Moreover, once there are 6 or 7 of that, it's prety much win. Maybe there should be a timer before the regeneration could happen again?

Another nice thing should be to add a "ban-list" in game option. So player 1 could choose cards forbidden.

Good job for your map and i hope you will go on improving it.

 

[Eikonium]

Hi Rangerdeaths, thanks for your feedback.

Channel and Elvish Pipe are both so called Stationary Cards. This card-type was not included in the original MtG and will be completely removed in the next version fot that reason. So dont worry
Unfortunately, I cant do it before August, because Im busy with my studies.

The ban-list is a good idea and I already thought about that. The problem is that preadded items (added to a shop in the object editor before the beginning of the game) cant be removed ingame (as far as I know). So I'm currently seeking for a solution to make a banlist possible.
Probably it would be enough to not add it to someones deck (with an error message), when choosen.

Squee can be very strong, I agree with that. There are also some solutions for him: Swords to Phlowshares completely removes him from the game (so he cant revive), Domination and Gilded Drake take control over him.
In addition, Squee has a huge mana disadvantage when he is spawned (10/10 for 70 mana). Normally, you get a 30/80 creature for that amount of mana, so Squee has to be revived at least 4 or 5 times, before he begins doing a good job.

Edit: I will add the "creatures cant be regenerated" effect to wrath of god, so Squee gets completely destroyed.

Best regards,
Eikonium

 

[Rangerdeaths]

Ok, nice to know. After some more games, i find that every of the stationary cards are imbalanced.
However, they speed up the game, and i think there should be something new to replace them.

Yeah, in fact Squee aren't really imbalanced, you are right.

About Wrath of god, i found that there could also be abuse on the card. Don't know if add it "creature cannot be regenerated" would be a good idea.

 

[Eikonium]

I probably replace them with land cards which increase your manaregeneration for a total amount.

In addition, you could try to speed up the game by using the "Fast manaregeneration" option.

Regards, Eikonium

 

[Sunfire230]

black stronghold assasins skill is buggy and can kill enemies without sacrifice. So fix pls. But amazing

 

[Eikonium]

Hey Sunfire230,
this map is not under construction since ~1 year, because I have barely time to work on it.
But I'm really looking forward to the next two months, having much more room to eventually develop this map further.

Can you describe the bug with some more detail?
What exactly happens, before the bug occures?

Regards,
Eikonium

 

[Sunfire230]

Those assassins have a skill only which can kill a random enemy for exchange one of your chosen units.The bug is i can cast it on enemies so i ca kill without sacrifice.

 

[Eikonium]

Ok, thanks for the bug report.
I will fix it in the next version which will hopefully be released

 

[raisen]

Thanks for sharing and of-course for making! simple and useful. good at all