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Mac Snow Leopard

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well they didn't change that much but almost everything is 64 bit now and they removed a lot of trash (like 7-10 gb)

i like it because it has exchange support and much things are just alot faster (especially searching through ALOT of mail ^^)
 
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Well, I've seen demos of it, heard lots of people using it, and hell, a guy down the hall from me has it and it runs fine. Not sure what's up on your end.

Apperently lots of people have had the problem that it's buggy and some people says it doesn't even work. Well, Ubuntu 9.10 will be out tommorow, it's gonna be intresting to see how it is.

edit: 1k posts!

edit2: Pardon me, Ubuntu 9.10 is out in a month
 
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Dr Super Good

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It looks like every other OS...

Who the hell are they to remove defragmenting and stuff from the user, I like to be able to tell exactly what state my PC is in. Next they will make the OS choose what you want to see, and remove the mouse alltogether as "users should not have those kinds of options".

Yes, the speed ups sound nice, but they have not supported them with any evidence. For example most of the time taken to thumbnail JPEGs is actually loading it from the harddisk (random axcess times) and processing them is comparitvly no time at all. So by 50% speed up that could mean saving a few nanoseconds of processing (so little that displaying this message uses more) to great advances in random data axcess from hardisks meaning they have much more efficent axcess path planning.

Honestly, they talk as much shit about their OS, as the ones they slagged off. Mac is proably better for inexperienced PC users due to its dumbed down interfaces and stuff, but I doubt it is any better than W7, especially since most useful applications do not run nativly in the OS.
 
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It looks like every other OS...
Every OS is significantly different, but I don't think you would understand this without spending a while using at least two different ones (Windows/OS X, Windows/Ubuntu, etc).

Who the hell are they to remove defragmenting and stuff from the user, I like to be able to tell exactly what state my PC is in.
Because most people don't know what the hell it is, and if the OS handles it for you then... well, there's no need for you to?

Next they will make the OS choose what you want to see, and remove the mouse alltogether as "users should not have those kinds of options".
Erm... No.

Yes, the speed ups sound nice, but they have not supported them with any evidence. For example most of the time taken to thumbnail JPEGs is actually loading it from the harddisk (random axcess times) and processing them is comparitvly no time at all. So by 50% speed up that could mean saving a few nanoseconds of processing (so little that displaying this message uses more) to great advances in random data axcess from hardisks meaning they have much more efficent axcess path planning.
Clearly they noticed significant differences; otherwise, they would not have bothered mentioning it. They didn't mention the majority of the features in Snow Leopard in that talk.

Honestly, they talk as much shit about their OS, as the ones they slagged off. Mac is proably better for inexperienced PC users due to its dumbed down interfaces and stuff, but I doubt it is any better than W7, especially since most useful applications do not run nativly in the OS.
...What?

What "useful applications" do I not have better versions of on OS X than W7/XP/etc? Funnily enough, even Windows-derived things are better implemented on OS X than Windows; for example, take their mentioned Exchange support—it integrates automatically into better apps than Windows provides, and it's free while Windows' requires you to buy the software separately. iWork (primarily Keynote) is mostly nicer than Office (I can't say I've noticed a huge difference between Pages and Word), and hell, even Microsoft Office::Mac is better written (by MS themselves) than the traditional Windows suite.

In addition, its Unix core alone makes it better for experienced computer users. There's a reason experienced hackers (in the programmer sense of the word) gravitate towards Unix (or GNU/Linux).

Finally, you can make interfaces simpler for new users without making them weak for more experienced users; for example, OS X makes it incredibly simple to use the basic elements of the OS, and Windows is slightly weirder at first but in the end pretty similar. However, which OS has grep? Which OS has proper terminal protocols such as ssh? Which OS has a terminal that makes you actually want to use it? Which OS has a beautiful GUI which at the same time is less of a hassle to use than XP's "minimalistic" GUI because the same operations that have neat graphics also have them in a way which allows for ease and speed of use (for example, Exposé)? Which OS has many Emacs commands built straight into it? The list goes on.

I'd like to see you list a bunch of similarly extremely powerful features that Windows has but Unix and GNU/Linux systems lack.

There is a reason Unix and GNU/Linux are gaining market share, you know.
 

Dr Super Good

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For a start almost every game runs better on windows 7 than on mac. I do not hear people complaining about long update times for WC3 with the windows client, and you are the first one to comment about this.

Windows also has direct X11 (or will in under a few weeks). This allows far better use of graphic hardware than OpenGL, even old hardware. Not only is it updated to better support threading, but it also supports new general purpose massivly threaded calculating on almost all venders, which I believe OpenGL does not. Yes you can argue that OpenGL will improve, but even developers expierenced with it say DX seems to preform better at the same tasks (in this case emulation) on the same hardware, although most of that is CPU related not GPU.

Your UI argument falls appart, you start supporting your argument with visual oppinions which demote it to mean nothing. Personally I find the vista UI fine and eye pleasing, the only actual problem I have is tabbing between DX/OGL apps as the desktop is DX accelerated so causes an extended delay period.

Defragmenting is automatic on vista, you schedual it once and then you never realise that it ever runs (although it does).

Word processors have not really improved much for 10 years, they are so undemanding that any performance improvements are stupid and unnoticable. Thus really you can not compre them on 2 OS, as they have existed for so long they can all do everything you normally need to do with them.

Although I would always like performance improvements (only idiots would not). I however honestly can not notice any performance problems with vista on my PC as everything is done nearly instantly (next to booting up / shutting down). I mean any preformance improvements are near unnoticable, like the ones they listed.

All in all I say that presentation was a load of crap. Yes the OS may be decent in some ways but that presentation did it no good. Never get marketing people to give a presentation for morons.

The real battle of the OS can begin when SC2 is released, as it is a next generation game for both mac and PC so would be the perfect test for preformance and stability. Hopefully it will not have the problems WC3 did.

The only thing mildly useful and good about mac is no stupid security OS crap, which annoys me every start up even though I disabled it. Mac however will eventually have the same problems though if it becomes popular as the risk level of opperating systems is linked directly to average user number.

All in all both mac and windows need work. Windows needs to focus on finer details while mac needs to work on functionality and adding standards like DX (even though it is microsoft, it is a standard that all graphic venders follow).
 
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For a start almost every game runs better on windows 7 than on mac. I do not hear people complaining about long update times for WC3 with the windows client, and you are the first one to comment about this.
Games run fine on both OS X Leopard and XP here. Same hardware.

<DX11 stuff>
Can you give me conclusive evidence that DX11 is indeed faster? If so, I will grant you that.

EDIT: I just read the wiki comparison page and it seems that they are roughly equal if OpenGL is not in fact better.

Your UI argument falls appart, you start supporting your argument with visual oppinions which demote it to mean nothing.
It starts off with the fact it is nicer looking than OSes such as XP as well as easier to use, and does not continue past there. This was according to you ("easier for newbies"), not me.

Defragmenting is automatic on vista, you schedual it once and then you never realise that it ever runs (although it does).
Whereas I schedule it... zero times?

Word processors have not really improved much for 10 years, they are so undemanding that any performance improvements are stupid and unnoticable. Thus really you can not compre them on 2 OS, as they have existed for so long they can all do everything you normally need to do with them.
What the hell? Performance isn't the difference between office suites, and I never even mentioned it. It's features and UI that count.

Although I would always like performance improvements (only idiots would not). I however honestly can not notice any performance problems with vista on my PC as everything is done nearly instantly (next to booting up / shutting down). I mean any preformance improvements are near unnoticable, like the ones they listed.
Last I checked, Search was fun to use on Windows, for example.

All in all I say that presentation was a load of crap. Yes the OS may be decent in some ways but that presentation did it no good. Never get marketing people to give a presentation for morons.
For morons? Those were people who professionally program on OS X and likely on Windows too—I suspect they know a tad more about it than you do (Hence why it's called the WWDC—"World Wide Developer Conference").

while mac needs to work on functionality
Half my argument is on functionality, and you did not respond to a single bit of it...

EDIT: On the lines of the "Different OSes look the same" argument of yours, I feel on top of saying "no" it is necessary to specify that different brands of the same OS (For example, Vista vs XP) are not different OSes.
 
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Dr Super Good

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For morons? Those were people who professionally program on OS X and likely on Windows too—I suspect they know a tad more about it than you do (Hence why it's called the WWDC—"World Wide Developer Conference").

Does not mean the presentation was good. Especially if you listen to the random aplausing that went on it sounds like the presentation was aimed at consumers and idiots more than at programmers. For a start it lacked any explination why stuff was faster, and why the OS was smaller. It also lacked explenation of any of the differences between the OSes for programmers.

It's features and UI that count.
Not at all, I still almost always use features which have existed for over 10 years. Infact there are not many more fetures that are useful for home use they could possiably ever event. Also different UIs are stupid, they should stick to a standard and not try and invent new stuff, afterall they uttered all that shit in the presentation, infact thats my only complaint with office 2007 is that the UI should be like 2003/2000/1998 and not some funky new crap.

Whereas I schedule it... zero times?
Can you explain how mac defragments and when? Atleast with windows you can without having to search the internet or user manual. Also this seriously will fuck the crap out of SSDs, as defragmenting is one of the worst things you can do to them, or are you saying it automatically detects if something is being stored on solid state and does not defragment it (if so then that was an important fact they missed up atleast in the first half).

Last I checked, Search was fun to use on Windows, for example.
Yes I have to admit its confusing to set up on vista as it reports that it is set up yet is not. However your serches are solved in a couple of seconds (if drive is not active) atmost.

Can you give me conclusive evidence that DX11 is indeed faster? If so, I will grant you that.
Yes, as atleast last time I checked OpenGL does not support general purpose processing on GPUs (which DX11 does on any DX10 GPU from all venders) and certainly does not support tessilisation shaders which Ati's new cards do. Also people from the dolphin emulator site (a gc/wii emulator for PC) say that OpenGL is slower than DX9, which could be due to different plugin structures but they say is most likly due to slower CPU instructions (as each instruction for the GPU has to be issued through the driver for the graphic card via the CPU).

Games run fine on both OS X Leopard and XP here. Same hardware.
I could sware you said that the WC3 update took hellishly long the other day.
Also this is if the games even run in the first place, many future titals which use only DX10/11 will not do so well until open GL shapes up to standards (which mac for some reason loved saying all the time). Do not bring dual booting into this as a solution as all systems support that and it gives results crediting to another OS.

EDIT: I just read the wiki comparison page and it seems that they are roughly equal if OpenGL is not in fact better.
However you can not trust wikipedia, especially poorly made articles like that. It mises any benchmark tests or proffs to back it up. Anyway the fact is OpenGL has yet to nativly support DX10 / 10.1 features fully (although it can be made to via extensions acording to an article from that wiki page) and currently has no plans to ever support offically DX11 feautres like improved threading model, 3 new shader types and the ability to run non graphic massivly parralel calculations on any graphic card.

All in all it is not a clear cut which is better and which is not.
 
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Does not mean the presentation was good. Especially if you listen to the random aplausing that went on it sounds like the presentation was aimed at consumers and idiots more than at programmers. For a start it lacked any explination why stuff was faster, and why the OS was smaller. It also lacked explenation of any of the differences between the OSes for programmers.
It briefly explained what made it faster (rewriting Finder in Cocoa, updating WebKit and a better JS compiler, 64 bit, etc), but they obviously didn't have a year to spare going on about shit that no one cares that deeply about just because some random guy could pick a bone with them otherwise. They also mention why the OS was smaller; they removed some outdated libraries, rewrote some core stuff, and did some better compression. Finally, it mentions GCD, OpenCL, and proper 64 bit, which is hardly "no difference between the OSes for programmers."

Not at all, I still almost always use features which have existed for over 10 years. Infact there are not many more fetures that are useful for home use they could possiably ever event. Also different UIs are stupid, they should stick to a standard and not try and invent new stuff, afterall they uttered all that shit in the presentation, infact thats my only complaint with office 2007 is that the UI should be like 2003/2000/1998 and not some funky new crap.
Funny that people want innovation but resist change, isn't it? In ten years I wouldn't be surprised if you have forgotten about how "great" the old Office layout was and like the new one (or the new-er one that they may invent in the future). In addition, the UI does not change hugely; notice how, for example, he mentions that although Finder is rewritten from scratch it is almost exactly the same UI-wise (The only differences being live previews and the icon magnify, to my knowledge).

Can you explain how mac defragments and when? Atleast with windows you can without having to search the internet or user manual. Also this seriously will fuck the crap out of SSDs, as defragmenting is one of the worst things you can do to them, or are you saying it automatically detects if something is being stored on solid state and does not defragment it (if so then that was an important fact they missed up atleast in the first half).
I have never done extensive research into OS X defragmenting as I don't really care.

Yes I have to admit its confusing to set up on vista as it reports that it is set up yet is not. However your serches are solved in a couple of seconds (if drive is not active) atmost.
Once they copied Spotlight, their searches became as fast... if the computer was doing nothing? I rest my case.

Yes, as atleast last time I checked OpenGL does not support general purpose processing on GPUs (which DX11 does on any DX10 GPU from all venders)
That's what OpenCL is for...

and certainly does not support tessilisation shaders which Ati's new cards do. Also people from the dolphin emulator site (a gc/wii emulator for PC) say that OpenGL is slower than DX9, which could be due to different plugin structures but they say is most likly due to slower CPU instructions (as each instruction for the GPU has to be issued through the driver for the graphic card via the CPU).
Sure, it doesn't support every new feature which one vendor only supports, but if the feature turns out to matter then it will. In addition, note how in the wiki article it comments that OpenGL appearing slower on Windows systems had to do with poor Windows-side, and not OpenGL-side implementation, as when they made one which removed the components of Windows that it interfaced with it was on par at least with DX.

I could sware you said that the WC3 update took hellishly long the other day.
Because I was running on my crappy campus wifi? It's funny how you are trying to blame OS X for what cannot be explained by anything other than internet issues... Do you seriously have no actual evidence to back your claims up?

Also this is if the games even run in the first place, many future titals which use only DX10/11 will not do so well until open GL shapes up to standards (which mac for some reason loved saying all the time). Do not bring dual booting into this as a solution as all systems support that and it gives results crediting to another OS.
Shapes up to standards, what? OpenGL is widely used—don't just assume that DX is the library just because MS made it. Notice how the PS 3 and the Wii use OpenGL?

However you can not trust wikipedia, especially poorly made articles like that.
Yes, yes I can trust Wiki (at least on non-controversial articles, and that is certainly not controversial).

It mises any benchmark tests or proffs to back it up.
It backs its arguments up with plenty of references. You don't even back up yours with anything.

Anyway the fact is OpenGL has yet to nativly support DX10 / 10.1 features fully (although it can be made to via extensions acording to an article from that wiki page) and currently has no plans to ever support offically DX11 feautres like improved threading model, 3 new shader types and the ability to run non graphic massivly parralel calculations on any graphic card.

All in all it is not a clear cut which is better and which is not.
So after all that going on about features that it isn't clear anyone actually cares about you finally admit it isn't worth trying to argue that DX is significantly better than OpenGL because it really doesn't appear to be?
 

Dr Super Good

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I could go into the OpenGL render system and how slow and flawed it is because it still has archaic junk used back in the days where shader model 1 was new in it but do I need to? The whole problem with OpenGL is the fact that it is using crap which has long since been depricated but still must support. Not to mention that it still is a pain in the ass for driver makers as they need to make separate systems in the driver to support both DX and OpenGL due to GLs very different opperation method.

The most of the consols mentioned use hardware so old that ofcourse they can use OpenGL. The Wii is nothing more than a slightly better PS2. The PS3 however does not use OpenGL, but rather a port of it improved slightly by sony, and even still this is not a problem as the PS3 GPU sucks, its a DX9 complient processor of the same type used for Geforce 7800 series cards with some minor optimizations. OpenGL is able to perfectly support up to shader model 3 (used by the Geforce 7800) and so it fully compatible, however as we all know the PS3 is visually inferior to the 360, with slower texture memort and no AA capabilities in most games, which I could argue may be caused by OpenGL. I however will say that arguing over that would be pointless due to such different hardware models.

Every professional programer I read articles of on the net says OpenGL needs something like DX10 is to DX9. Basically the core is flawed and slowing it down due to companies insisting their 7 year old programs should still run. In general game playing, this is hardly noticable as mostly other parts of the system bottleneck preformance so no one really argues about it, however more and more people are switching to DX for windows after the half ass job which was done on OpenGL 3.0, which started off promising full DX10 feature support and total code restructure before DX10 was released and ended up giving only 50% or less by the time DX10.1 was out. Thus unless in the next year OpenGL is completly modernised and updated, it will die out outside of non graphic intensive opperations or time independant apps.

OpenCL I can not honestly comment on, it seems the newest hype to me as even Dolphin emulator is getting a plug in using it. I will have to look it up but the case still remains that OpenGL is prety shit nativly without extensions in this day and age. Also you can not compair DX preformance on non windows machines to it as it is non existant.

Edit - OpenCL allows for the features DX11 also offers. They are both equal on windows systems as far as I can tell and may allow for portability of apps. It seems onpar with the functionality DX11 will add in a couple of weeks time (from the general purpose view, as it still does not change the fact that macs will have no ability to use tessilisation and other new filters on the new ATI cards and future cards from both venders for real time graphics efficently).
 

Dr Super Good

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PS2 was the oldest of that generation...
If Wii was not better than all that generation, then it would have failed already.

By the fact that we already have wii emulation it says it all, the wii was basically an enhanced version of game cube and infact uses most of the same hardware but slightly improved.
 
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PS2 was the oldest of that generation...
If Wii was not better than all that generation, then it would have failed already.

By the fact that we already have wii emulation it says it all, the wii was basically an enhanced version of game cube and infact uses most of the same hardware but slightly improved.

Getting a bit off topic now
 
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