• Listen to a special audio message from Bill Roper to the Hive Workshop community (Bill is a former Vice President of Blizzard Entertainment, Producer, Designer, Musician, Voice Actor) 🔗Click here to hear his message!
  • Read Evilhog's interview with Gregory Alper, the original composer of the music for WarCraft: Orcs & Humans 🔗Click here to read the full interview.

I'm looking for a list of flaws in...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Level 8
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
66
I'm looking for a list of flaws in Dota. Yep, that's right. But not just any list. I'm looking a detailed list of things wrong with Dota, like specific balance issues with heroes, items, etc. From that, I can figure out what it did right. My project right now is making a presentation about Wc3 custom maps. Since Dota makes up 70-80% of all custom games, this will definitely be a hot topic. The problem is, a google search will only bring up things like "dota sucks" or "dota rocks you noob".

Of course, feel free to leave any input on this in this thread, but let's keep this professional okay? If you're gonna point out something wrong with it, give as much detail as possible, like specific heroes and abilities and what's wrong with them, specific items, gameplay aspects, etc. I'd like everyone to not mention anything about the Dota community or map maker since it will most likely start a flame war and I'll end up not getting the information I need.

Once I'm done, I'll publish my finding for everyone to see. It should benefit a lot of people so they can form an actual opinion based on real information instead of listening to five-word arguments for or against it.

Again, I'm looking for information related to the map itself. Do not post anything related to the Dota community or the map maker. Let's keep this clean and let's not start a flame war.

:thumbs_up:
 
Level 14
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
1,185
I advise you first play few REAL (not publics) games of dota to get some point of view.....if not, then at least make the same thread on Dota-Allstars forums, to see both sides of discussion.

I can list four advantage:
- many heroes -> huge replayability
- easy to learn, hard to master
- there are leagues and tournaments for it
- constant updates, balancing the game and adding new features

and one disadvantage:
- few heroes, such as Spectre and Bristleback, when used properly, are very imbalanced, both having very good damage reflection skills. BUT it isn't that much of a problem, because public players don't know how to use these heroes properly and in "pro" games, they are always removed from the game (-xl mode, remove 3 heroes from Sentinel and 3 heroes from Scourge)
 
Level 12
Joined
Aug 3, 2005
Messages
745
Cons:

- To many subpar, lowertier Heroes, who are outshined by the 'League' Heroes.
- Pretty much same with items, a few of the crappy ones could definetly be tweaked.
- Game can drag on and on, even when one team is clearly dominating.
- 5v5, doesnt use 6v6 potential.
 
Level 8
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
313
In the begining of the game, if you don't get the "right" items, then you're screwed for the rest of the game, because you can't kill anything or get enough gold to get better items.

A new player in DoTA has pretty much no chance at all, unless the houses of all the enemy players are knocked down by hurricanes.
 
Level 12
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
1,193
I must agree with Simon, the items make the hero in many cases, but this is a good thing. This is what leaves us to what Jacek said, Easy to Learn, Hard to Master.

Wait a minute, Lowertier Heroes? Which are those? Which are the "League" Heroes? Seriously, if you think that there are any "tiers" on the heroes, you havent mastered DotA yet.....
 
Level 27
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
3,052
I'd prefer it to be 5v5, not 6v6, allows for good lane balancing. 2 on 2 lanes, one solo. The things I don't like:
-Stolen Spells
-Some heroes can be imbalanced when abused (mmmm BB.)
-Roshan has been disgraced. He used to be a mighty terror you would do with a group of 5 level 20+'s, now you can get him fairly early. Takes the fun out of it.
-Competition is far too fierce.
-Balancing in -ar can get really off. Balancing in -ap can get worse.
--donut3.5--
 
Level 8
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
446
I'd rather play a map with very defined unique heroes with just basic items than a map where every hero got around the same skills but with recipes and all that stuff. I hate the way dota works. It depends too much on items and not how you play your hero.

But then again, you're going off topic. You're supposed to give flaws about Dota, not the advantages of it. Read more carefully next time.
 
Last edited:
Level 12
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
1,193
okay, its seems you are looking at this the wrong way. Lets see how

#1 You would rather play with very defined unique heroes with just basic item

rather than

#2 There is just 1 Hero Type, but there are alot of unique items

If you look at this, #2 is more customizable(which is equal to more unique) since you can turn your hero into whatever hero you would like, since in #1, you can play with the same hero a second time and be forced to play the same

Im just pointing out that your "flaws" are not "flaws"
 
Level 4
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
61
I think i can point out one obius flaw:
*Pudge, the Butcher.
His passive Flesh Heap can making him soo rigged its not even funny, all depends on the amount of kills the player gets. If games goes on long enogh he can get about infinetiv damage and health.

*Nukers and casters:
-As we all know, items dominate dota and all of them are simple. Lategame casters got 300 damage nukes with 8 second cooldown, all stuns are imba.
-Since int only enchants the manapoll of hero's it becomes the most useless stat(str got insane hp, agi got insane armore and attackspeed).
-90% of int nukers spells are useless with a few exeptions(banshee's ulti)
 
Level 14
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
1,185
you said that in second thread..

clarification:

flesh heap gives 25 hp and 1 damage per hero kill...
int affects manapool and damage of intelligence heroes, and usually synergizes with their abilities (Silencer's Glaives of Window, Obsidian Destroyer's Sanity Eclipse)
 
Level 17
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
1,433
I'd prefer it to be 5v5, not 6v6, allows for good lane balancing. 2 on 2 lanes, one solo. The things I don't like:
-Stolen Spells
-Some heroes can be imbalanced when abused (mmmm BB.)
-Roshan has been disgraced. He used to be a mighty terror you would do with a group of 5 level 20+'s, now you can get him fairly early. Takes the fun out of it.
-Competition is far too fierce.
-Balancing in -ar can get really off. Balancing in -ap can get worse.
--donut3.5--
I agree about rosh; an ursa with vlads can 1v1 him at lvl 7:eekani:
 
Level 8
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
446
okay, its seems you are looking at this the wrong way. Lets see how

#1 You would rather play with very defined unique heroes with just basic item

rather than

#2 There is just 1 Hero Type, but there are alot of unique items

If you look at this, #2 is more customizable(which is equal to more unique) since you can turn your hero into whatever hero you would like, since in #1, you can play with the same hero a second time and be forced to play the same

Im just pointing out that your "flaws" are not "flaws"

Even if no2 is more customizable, I don't care. It's my opinion and I prefer no1 to it. It can still be a flaw for some people. Some people don't like it, some do.
 
Level 34
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
8,873
With the amount of heroes it's pretty much impossible to get balancing perfect, or near perfect. I don't play it much, so I can't elaborate, but to me it's obvious.

With so many heroes skills get repetitive which I don't like, maybe most people don't care, but I hate it.

The hydralisk model should not be in the game IMO. I guess you could say it's not a flaw, but I think it is. The avenger, I think, shoots herself. Why?!? Dear god why?!?
 
Level 15
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
1,738
Even if no2 is more customizable, I don't care. It's my opinion and I prefer no1 to it. It can still be a flaw for some people. Some people don't like it, some do.

I in no way see how all of the heroes are "copies" of eachother.

Every hero has some unique ultimate or skill, take in example Larador (the Death Knight guy I think).

He has a passive slow that stacks, wow, any other heroes have that? He can make a mana shield that doesn't drain mana and will explode dealing damage after it's been drained of "said mana", his ultimate (wait, what does his ultimate do again? I just remember it kicked major ass...).

Anyway, I also remember a few more heroes:

Morphling:
Can any other hero make a clone of enemy or ally/change stats?

PL:
Can any other hero make massive ammounts of images that make images of themselves?!

Magina:
Only hero in the game with a -mana spell (-mana as in does damage based on their mana).

The list goes on and on, so please, next time before you argue about something you have no knowlege about, do your homework.
 
Level 34
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
8,873
avenger? shoots herself? wtf

ah u mean vengeful spirit... who cares? does it matter?

if a firelord would shoot icebolts, would you stop playing the game?

Did I say I don't play the game because of that?

I wouldn't stop playing because a firelord shot icebolts, but it would make it worse. If you add up a bunch of stupid ideas like that I wouldn't play.

Besides shooting icebolts when your fire isn't that bad, shooting yourself, and having it look stupid is bad.

Do you think it's cool that she shoots herself?
 
Level 27
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
3,052
One of the things I don't like are early game heroes who become unstoppable lategame. It's all based on how well your opponents play, none of how you play.
I like it better your hero relies on skill and not on getting stacked by items. And no not all heroes all like that, Techies, Ezalor, Pudge, and others don't really need items.
--donut3.5--
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Level 8
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
66
Thread cleaned up, let's have a clean discussion please, S3 was very clear on what this was about.

Thank you, good sir. :thumbs_up:

The things I don't like:
-Stolen Spells
-Some heroes can be imbalanced when abused (mmmm BB.)
-Roshan has been disgraced. He used to be a mighty terror you would do with a group of 5 level 20+'s, now you can get him fairly early. Takes the fun out of it.
-Competition is far too fierce.
-Balancing in -ar can get really off. Balancing in -ap can get worse.
--donut3.5--

I think i can point out one obius flaw:
*Pudge, the Butcher.
His passive Flesh Heap can making him soo rigged its not even funny, all depends on the amount of kills the player gets. If games goes on long enogh he can get about infinetiv damage and health.

*Nukers and casters:
-As we all know, items dominate dota and all of them are simple. Lategame casters got 300 damage nukes with 8 second cooldown, all stuns are imba.
-Since int only enchants the manapoll of hero's it becomes the most useless stat(str got insane hp, agi got insane armore and attackspeed).
-90% of int nukers spells are useless with a few exeptions(banshee's ulti)

I in no way see how all of the heroes are "copies" of eachother.

Every hero has some unique ultimate or skill, take in example Larador (the Death Knight guy I think).

He has a passive slow that stacks, wow, any other heroes have that? He can make a mana shield that doesn't drain mana and will explode dealing damage after it's been drained of "said mana", his ultimate (wait, what does his ultimate do again? I just remember it kicked major ass...).

Morphling:
Can any other hero make a clone of enemy or ally/change stats?

PL:
Can any other hero make massive ammounts of images that make images of themselves?!

Magina:
Only hero in the game with a -mana spell (-mana as in does damage based on their mana).


I shall research this further. Thanks everyone! Keep it coming!
 
Level 8
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
446
I in no way see how all of the heroes are "copies" of eachother.

Every hero has some unique ultimate or skill, take in example Larador (the Death Knight guy I think).

He has a passive slow that stacks, wow, any other heroes have that? He can make a mana shield that doesn't drain mana and will explode dealing damage after it's been drained of "said mana", his ultimate (wait, what does his ultimate do again? I just remember it kicked major ass...).

Anyway, I also remember a few more heroes:

Morphling:
Can any other hero make a clone of enemy or ally/change stats?

PL:
Can any other hero make massive ammounts of images that make images of themselves?!

Magina:
Only hero in the game with a -mana spell (-mana as in does damage based on their mana).

The list goes on and on, so please, next time before you argue about something you have no knowlege about, do your homework.

It's my frigging opinion, you don't like I still don't give a rat ass what you think about it so shove it up your ass and never talk to me like that again you disrespectful idiot.
 
Last edited:
Level 2
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
14
i'm very good and i'm coming here to visit the awesomeness that is the hive workshop. i'm not the best, but i'm in some known leagues (and neither am i the -apem guy who says every hero that beats me is imbalanced)

-yes, some heroes are imbalanced. while 80 or so heroes does add lot of replayability to the map, it is guaranteed impossible to balance 80 heroes. when you change even one skill of a hero (say frost nova) so that a certain hero is better, other heroes will become worse against that hero, etc; the whole thing changes
some heroes that are "imbalanced". currently the most recognized are spectre and bristleback. although i don't agree with the latter, i won't go into too many details other than the fact that they deal a lot of damage when let farmed because of their reflection abilities

-also there is the 'tiering problem'. there are heroes that are just better for competitive play (but i think this exists in every aos; some just aren't known because none are really as popular as dota). this consists of qop, warlock, nerubian assassin, beastmaster, zeus, sand king, lina, lesh, etc (dont want too list too many :() who are all better than say treant, spirit breaker, axe, alch, pit lord

-with so many heroes/items, i think it might be hard to learn. not trying to add a subtle 'i am own' message here, but i really didn't take that long. however with the amount of people who are GOOD at dota (even in leagues and especially tda there are a lot of subpar people) compared to the average skill level of pubbies, i'm assuming it's hard to learn the game completely. and even when you learn the game, you still need actual skill and not just knowledge. not only that, but there is even more than just heroes/items; there's a whole section on their forums on mechanics only which will tell you how orbs stack, which spells go through immunity, etc. some pros don't even know how it works.

-also while updates aren't exactly slow, some people aren't really satisfied in the direction of how the map is being updated. new heroes/new items/asthetic things are being adressed without any proper balance changes to those lower tier heroes mentioned earlier. the new changelog was leaked and i can definately say that a lot of stuff was tweaked that didn't need to be, while some major problems still exist

-also mapmakers in general hate dota, although i don't know if this ties here. guinsoo used to steal spells off eul's roc dota and pretty much every one of the heroes 'he made' (read: weren't taken directly from roc dota) were from his forum of suggestions and/or friends

regarding items, while some are better than others there is a lot of versatility in the choices of items you can get already. most aos suffer 'holy shit get this +10 to all stats and win' kinda thing (null talismans anyone), whereas dota you have many different builds for heroes. and the 'crappy items' that all the supposed pro players used to rant about are actually used be real pros. and while i'm not going to say "EVERY ITEM IS GOOD IF USED CORRECTLY" because that's untrue and only said by optimists who don't even play the game, most of the items have use. another thing that ties in with the earlier mentioned balancing 80 heroes point, is that icefrog has to balance for many different levels of play: buffing say dagon for higher level play means probably a lot of whine frmo pub players about how imba dagon is now. anyways, the only item i consider 'true crap' is blademail. and this is out of like 60+ items

and because i already made such a long essay i'll adress some points mentioned earlier in the thread.

pudge is not imba because of his ability to gain infinite amount of strength. in a regular dota game where he dominates, he'll get about 25. in a 2 hour game, i'd predict 40-70.
you have stuff totally wrong about intel. while some do 'decline' lategame, pretty much every hero used currently has some viability lategame. even stuff that people don't use (lich has chain frost, dp has exorcism). also they dominate early game if played properly, so it's a good tradeoff. also any hero with even ONE stun has viability lategame (and aoe stuns even more). no idea why you say their ulti's suck either. off the top of my head i think off tidal wave, rain of chaos, laguna blade, pulse nova and global silence. the only ult i can think of which is bad is kotl's ult, and that still is not TERRIBLY bad but just needs a buff. maybe if you play -em intels are worse, but the level of pubs is so low that you could probably win anyways

regarding rosh, reason why that happened is because no one would ever rosh: it was easy to get ganked. if anything he needs another change because the only time you can really do rosh is if they're either all dead (AND YOU SHOULD PUSH INSTEAD OF DOING ROSH) or b is if you're dominating them anyways so they can't gank you (in which case game is pretty much over and you're just on the safe side anyways). also heroes soloing him is pretty much null; veno/undying take like 2 minutes which is valuable exp and possibility of gank, and ursa can solo him pretty quickly but again there's still a possibility of a gank and that ursa isn't a good hero at all besides that

also if you wish to argue with anything i said, please don't argue on points of heroes only (aka so and so hero is good).
 
Level 7
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
246
Nobody mentioned visual side of DotA. Which is TERRIBLE. Really bad terraining (the middle could stay, but PLEASE, the bases look sooooo awkward!), heroes which totally don't suit each other and don't blend with terrain/environment, stuff like Hydralisk mentioned by Gilles and that white ape hero (wtf?!). And not really impressive spells, if we look at visual side.

Now, brutal, but honest opinion- I can't possibly play that ugly shit after playing so many nice maps. It would only assure me more that maps like DoE are so superior over DotA.

Other flaws- many boring heroes. A hero should be fun to play. Ye, nuking the enemy with 1000 damage is effective, but where's the fun? All those nukers and other boring heroes, like the guy using warlock model, should be remade.

Items- diversity, yes. But I see more chaos than diversity here. It's a total mess, there's no system or anything. For well-organised items, look at DoE, LoE and EotA:T.

Gameplay- it's only hero-killing and item-buying. ONLY. Too plain.
 
Level 12
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
1,193
i'm very good and i'm coming here to visit the awesomeness that is the hive workshop. i'm not the best, but i'm in some known leagues (and neither am i the -apem guy who says every hero that beats me is imbalanced)

-yes, some heroes are imbalanced. while 80 or so heroes does add lot of replayability to the map, it is guaranteed impossible to balance 80 heroes. when you change even one skill of a hero (say frost nova) so that a certain hero is better, other heroes will become worse against that hero, etc; the whole thing changes
some heroes that are "imbalanced". currently the most recognized are spectre and bristleback. although i don't agree with the latter, i won't go into too many details other than the fact that they deal a lot of damage when let farmed because of their reflection abilities

-also there is the 'tiering problem'. there are heroes that are just better for competitive play (but i think this exists in every aos; some just aren't known because none are really as popular as dota). this consists of qop, warlock, nerubian assassin, beastmaster, zeus, sand king, lina, lesh, etc (dont want too list too many :() who are all better than say treant, spirit breaker, axe, alch, pit lord

-with so many heroes/items, i think it might be hard to learn. not trying to add a subtle 'i am own' message here, but i really didn't take that long. however with the amount of people who are GOOD at dota (even in leagues and especially tda there are a lot of subpar people) compared to the average skill level of pubbies, i'm assuming it's hard to learn the game completely. and even when you learn the game, you still need actual skill and not just knowledge. not only that, but there is even more than just heroes/items; there's a whole section on their forums on mechanics only which will tell you how orbs stack, which spells go through immunity, etc. some pros don't even know how it works.

-also while updates aren't exactly slow, some people aren't really satisfied in the direction of how the map is being updated. new heroes/new items/asthetic things are being adressed without any proper balance changes to those lower tier heroes mentioned earlier. the new changelog was leaked and i can definately say that a lot of stuff was tweaked that didn't need to be, while some major problems still exist

-also mapmakers in general hate dota, although i don't know if this ties here. guinsoo used to steal spells off eul's roc dota and pretty much every one of the heroes 'he made' (read: weren't taken directly from roc dota) were from his forum of suggestions and/or friends

regarding items, while some are better than others there is a lot of versatility in the choices of items you can get already. most aos suffer 'holy shit get this +10 to all stats and win' kinda thing (null talismans anyone), whereas dota you have many different builds for heroes. and the 'crappy items' that all the supposed pro players used to rant about are actually used be real pros. and while i'm not going to say "EVERY ITEM IS GOOD IF USED CORRECTLY" because that's untrue and only said by optimists who don't even play the game, most of the items have use. another thing that ties in with the earlier mentioned balancing 80 heroes point, is that icefrog has to balance for many different levels of play: buffing say dagon for higher level play means probably a lot of whine frmo pub players about how imba dagon is now. anyways, the only item i consider 'true crap' is blademail. and this is out of like 60+ items

and because i already made such a long essay i'll adress some points mentioned earlier in the thread.

pudge is not imba because of his ability to gain infinite amount of strength. in a regular dota game where he dominates, he'll get about 25. in a 2 hour game, i'd predict 40-70.
you have stuff totally wrong about intel. while some do 'decline' lategame, pretty much every hero used currently has some viability lategame. even stuff that people don't use (lich has chain frost, dp has exorcism). also they dominate early game if played properly, so it's a good tradeoff. also any hero with even ONE stun has viability lategame (and aoe stuns even more). no idea why you say their ulti's suck either. off the top of my head i think off tidal wave, rain of chaos, laguna blade, pulse nova and global silence. the only ult i can think of which is bad is kotl's ult, and that still is not TERRIBLY bad but just needs a buff. maybe if you play -em intels are worse, but the level of pubs is so low that you could probably win anyways

regarding rosh, reason why that happened is because no one would ever rosh: it was easy to get ganked. if anything he needs another change because the only time you can really do rosh is if they're either all dead (AND YOU SHOULD PUSH INSTEAD OF DOING ROSH) or b is if you're dominating them anyways so they can't gank you (in which case game is pretty much over and you're just on the safe side anyways). also heroes soloing him is pretty much null; veno/undying take like 2 minutes which is valuable exp and possibility of gank, and ursa can solo him pretty quickly but again there's still a possibility of a gank and that ursa isn't a good hero at all besides that

also if you wish to argue with anything i said, please don't argue on points of heroes only (aka so and so hero is good).
wow, there are so many wrong things about this post, im not even going to "correct" them all

First of all, "ursa isnt a good hero at all besides that", when you say that, you must be joking. You just have to.

When it comes to imbalance in the map, i must agree that there is, but you are overreacting, or have not looked at this the proper way. There are no "tiers". As much as you want to say there are, there arent. Yes, some heroes might be better in PvP, but that doesnt mean that they are the best. 2 support heroes and 3 over-all heroes can easily beat a 5 player PvP team. Support heroes play a bigger role in dota than you might think(im not saying they play the biggest role).

and about that whole "teh forum and teh mechanics"-thingy, i must say one very beautifull qoute.

"Knowledge is power"

and now to the final thing. Spectre is not imbalanced. An imbalanced hero means that he is practicly unstoppable in most situations. This is where Spectre fails. Any hero with a summon or a silence skill can defeat a un-feeded spectre quite easily. And now with the Orchid Malevolence, any hero can silence. I understand why you think spectre is imbalanced with his ulti + bonus damage + dagger skills, but they are easily countered.
 
Level 2
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
14
wow, there are so many wrong things about this post, im not even going to "correct" them all

First of all, "ursa isnt a good hero at all besides that", when you say that, you must be joking. You just have to.

When it comes to imbalance in the map, i must agree that there is, but you are overreacting, or have not looked at this the proper way. There are no "tiers". As much as you want to say there are, there arent. Yes, some heroes might be better in PvP, but that doesnt mean that they are the best. 2 support heroes and 3 over-all heroes can easily beat a 5 player PvP team. Support heroes play a bigger role in dota than you might think(im not saying they play the biggest role).

and about that whole "teh forum and teh mechanics"-thingy, i must say one very beautifull qoute.

"Knowledge is power"

and now to the final thing. Spectre is not imbalanced. An imbalanced hero means that he is practicly unstoppable in most situations. This is where Spectre fails. Any hero with a summon or a silence skill can defeat a un-feeded spectre quite easily. And now with the Orchid Malevolence, any hero can silence. I understand why you think spectre is imbalanced with his ulti + bonus damage + dagger skills, but they are easily countered.
sigh, this is basically "pubber mentality" where you can just say any hero is imba and then try and back up your statement with some retarded sentence. i can do that with any hero right now

drow is imbalanced bcuz like wtf she kn slo u n den silence u n omg she farm so fast n do so much dmg and i cnt hit her or use spells wtf imba??

doesn't work that way. if you would like, we can play sometime

when you play high level, you are always going to see players try and pick out of a pool of 15-20 heroes. and what the hell is an "overall hero". and actually, spectre wasn't imbalanced because of the bonus damage or dagger skills, but because he could farm, you can't gank him with wards up thanks to dagger/tp and once he gets radiance you have to either decide to a) focus him, let the rest of his team beat on you and get dispersed on at random intervals or b) ignore him and take 60 damage whacks to the face and 15 damage aoe every second. he could also farm and gank at the same time

once you learn last hitting, i'll be willing to argue. it helps if you actually know how to play a map at high level before you critique it
 
Level 12
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
1,193
sigh, this is basically "pubber mentality" where you can just say any hero is imba and then try and back up your statement with some retarded sentence. i can do that with any hero right now

drow is imbalanced bcuz like wtf she kn slo u n den silence u n omg she farm so fast n do so much dmg and i cnt hit her or use spells wtf imba??

doesn't work that way. if you would like, we can play sometime

when you play high level, you are always going to see players try and pick out of a pool of 15-20 heroes. and what the hell is an "overall hero". and actually, spectre wasn't imbalanced because of the bonus damage or dagger skills, but because he could farm, you can't gank him with wards up thanks to dagger/tp and once he gets radiance you have to either decide to a) focus him, let the rest of his team beat on you and get dispersed on at random intervals or b) ignore him and take 60 damage whacks to the face and 15 damage aoe every second. he could also farm and gank at the same time

once you learn last hitting, i'll be willing to argue. it helps if you actually know how to play a map at high level before you critique it
I do play at high level?

Spectre imba becouse he could farm and escape with the dagger and then get Radience and get uberwtfpwnz0rbbq damage? Do you know how easy it is to get 50% damage reduction on the armor? you can even enhance that advantage with other stuff aswell

farm and gank at the same time, i can agree on

when we go back to the "drow is imbalanced bcuz like wtf she kn slo u n den silence u n omg she farm so fast n do so much dmg and i cnt hit her or use spells wtf imba??

doesn't work that way. if you would like, we can play sometime"

it does not work that way, and its becouse you are forgetting that there will always be ways to counter those things. Whatever "imba", wether(i dunno if i spelled it correctly :p) its a inbalance that makes the character better or worse, there will always be a way to improve/counter this inbalance. Lets take drow as an example again. If i and a teammate come to gank her, she will stand no chance(if we both play on "high levels") UNLESS she buys a dagger or a lothars(this is a counter/improvement) becouse then she will only be able to target one of the players and take these "60+ damage whacks" as you call them. To counter that, one of the ganking players could silence, to counter that the drow could get something else.

oh, and by the way, Radiance does 35 damage per second in an aoe, and the range of the aoe is 600

here are my "retarded sentances", and im still wondering which these 15-20 heroes are
 
Level 2
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
14
you spelled sentence wrong.

and i wasn't implying that drow was good, quite the opposite but point was that i can justify that pretty much any hero is good on paper. hence the "doesn't work that way" which you repeat shortly after

Do you know how easy it is to get 50% damage reduction on the armor? you can even enhance that advantage with other stuff aswell
also wtf is that supposed to mean
Yes, some heroes might be better in PvP, but that doesnt mean that they are the best. 2 support heroes and 3 over-all heroes can easily beat a 5 player PvP team. Support heroes play a bigger role in dota than you might think(im not saying they play the biggest role).
btw, this quote is filled with dumb. you shouldn't be categorizing stuff into "over-all" heroes or "pvp" teams. after this quote you really make me doubt that you play anything other than pubs. fyi clan matches aren't nessicarily high level
and now to the final thing. Spectre is not imbalanced. An imbalanced hero means that he is practicly unstoppable in most situations. This is where Spectre fails. Any hero with a summon or a silence skill can defeat a un-feeded spectre quite easily. And now with the Orchid Malevolence, any hero can silence. I understand why you think spectre is imbalanced with his ulti + bonus damage + dagger skills, but they are easily countered.
this is where you fail. imbalanced doesn't mean unstoppable in most situations. it means "not balanced", therefore stronger than most of the other heroes. you can shaep this however you want, but a proper clan using spectre IS actually "practicly unstoppable in most situations" (practically fyi). on to the point, a summon skill isn't going to stop a spectre (like you want to use treants against him or something?) and what is silence going to do? yes orchid does counter him now but that's because of the BONUS DAMAGE, not because of the silence. once spectre is in a fight he casts one spell and that's all he's going to cast. the only POSSIBLE SILENCE that could counter spectre is if he's waiting to ulti and then silencer global silences him. and that's almost impossible to predict and easily countered with a team backing up or spectre just waiting the 5 seconds

and if you really want the list, as of .48b

Tier 1
Nerubian Assassin
Beastmaster
Warlock
Zeus
Queen of Pain
Priestess of the Moon
Sand King
Sven
Lina
Leshrac
Magnataur
Luna
Void
Terrorblade
Spectre
Bristleback
Shadow Fiend

Tier 1.5
Twin-Headed Dragon
Tiny
Centaur
Necrolyte
Puck
Pudge
Viper
Chaos Knight
Shadow Priest
Vengeful Spirit
Silencer
Templar Assassin

http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showforum=459

that's a link to the highest quality tournament. 90% of the games will follow these rules: ban top 6, take the next best top 5 (in tier 1 there are only 4 supports minus the top 6), take the next best top 5

never ever seen ursa used in a high level clan match
 
Level 12
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Messages
1,193
you spelled sentence wrong.
of teh noes, teh crammar poliz iz heer
also wtf is that supposed to mean
oh no you didnt.....

this is where you fail. imbalanced doesn't mean unstoppable in most situations. it means "not balanced", therefore stronger than most of the other heroes. you can shaep this however you want, but a proper clan using spectre IS actually "practicly unstoppable in most situations" (practically fyi). on to the point, a summon skill isn't going to stop a spectre (like you want to use treants against him or something?) and what is silence going to do? yes orchid does counter him now but that's because of the BONUS DAMAGE, not because of the silence. once spectre is in a fight he casts one spell and that's all he's going to cast. the only POSSIBLE SILENCE that could counter spectre is if he's waiting to ulti and then silencer global silences him. and that's almost impossible to predict and easily countered with a team backing up or spectre just waiting the 5 seconds
The summons are to counter the 60 damage pounding coming from one of spectres skills. The silence is to prevent the spectre from the very good escape skills that he has. Why would you else silence an attacking hero?

and if you really want the list, as of .48b

Tier 1
Nerubian Assassin
Beastmaster
Warlock
Zeus
Queen of Pain
Priestess of the Moon
Sand King
Sven
Lina
Leshrac
Magnataur
Luna
Void
Terrorblade
Spectre
Bristleback
Shadow Fiend

Tier 1.5
Twin-Headed Dragon
Tiny
Centaur
Necrolyte
Puck
Pudge
Viper
Chaos Knight
Shadow Priest
Vengeful Spirit
Silencer
Templar Assassin

http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showforum=459

that's a link to the highest quality tournament. 90% of the games will follow these rules: ban top 6, take the next best top 5 (in tier 1 there are only 4 supports minus the top 6), take the next best top 5

never ever seen ursa used in a high level clan match
now that, im surprised about. not about the never seen ursa part, but at the tiers list part. I suppose you are right about this, even though it wont change my strategy a bit. Notice, i said MY, not MY TEAMS strategy a bit ;)

lets just call it quits now on this flamewar, okay? the thing is, you might think im a stupid-ass noobz0r who only plays in public with wierd thoughts about countering other heroes. Fine, so be it, atleast i know that is not the truth. Why do i want you to quit doing this? becouse im known to be quite stubborn and have an oppinion that is not that easily changed :p
 
Level 12
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
866
Skipped some text

DIdn't feel like reading all the text, kinda because I've been in 5 billion flame wars about DotA so there isn't much that I haven't heard

===============================================

Some simple facts that seem to appeal to most gamers:

[RAINBOW]*simple game, not too confusing
*competition always makes it more interesting
*spells are alot of fun
*items, are almost as much fun as spells
* items that affect spells, fun ^ 2
*rpg-type attributes/abilities adds a secondary aspect that some gamers enjoy (but not all!)
*Balancing is important, but you will probably attract a larger crowd with item combos
*Special features can always make a game more interesting, sometimes it's so good it saves the game, so don't forget to stay innovative!
(simple ideas, random bosses, that are different each game)[/RAINBOW]


<>sadly, some gamers like winning so much, they could care less that their win was completely bullsh*t (to them it's more like, "it wasn't unfair", the other team just sucks)
[That last category would be where the term "DotA whore" comes from, but I would say that's only (give or take 5%) 10% of the players]


DotA also has insanely efficient code (or so I might assume), so you should be VERY skilled in vJASS to compete




==============================================
EDIT

Uhh, I noticed you used the word "strategy", just as a little footnote, please stop using that word when you speak of game-plans, rather replace it with "tactics"

I could start a whole discussion on the difference, but here's the simple misconception

Strategy - An ever-changing plan to reach a single ultimate goal, but that plan is always changed (change is anticipated!!!) when a new piece of information arises

Tactics - A unique way of doing that will seemingly have the same effect every-single time, thus becoming almost a "rule of thumb" so to speak

Real strategy is actual to have no plan at all until you have your goal, and then your strategy becoms formulated by the present moment (at this point the various tactics become pieces of information that can be used in this formulation process, although they should always be considered unpredictable)


Thus, you can probably guess it is impossible to have strategy in a game like warcraft3, unless you play something like risk for over 30 mins (which is why I love old school risk:cool:)
 
Level 8
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
446
Stop going off topic. If you want to defend Dota that much, do that in the other Dota thread. This one is specifically for the flaws of Dota.
 
Level 12
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
866
Erm....

I'm not defending it, I hate it, I don't think I mentioned that for every flame war, I was against DotA :hohum:
 
Level 2
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
14
Stop going off topic. If you want to defend Dota that much, do that in the other Dota thread. This one is specifically for the flaws of Dota.
well i already pointed out my flaws, but since there were some unfounded ones i pointed out flaws in their flaws...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top