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High Stakes

Submitted by Deserted
This bundle is marked as approved. It works and satisfies the submission rules.
High Stakes
Created by Deserted

Story
Long ago this isle was centre of attraction for traders and artificers from all over the world.
Now it is covered by forest; trolls, ogres and bandits hold the relics of the past.
Destroy the scavengers and capture the strategic point!

Tileset
Lordaeron Summer with Cityscape

Tactics
After the player deals with starting camps, he/she has 3 choices:
1) Go to the Forest for MercCamp and fast expansion;
2) Compete for control of the Center;
3) Go to the Shore for harder creepcamps and safe expansions.


Map Specifics
[​IMG] Players 6
[​IMG] Creep Camps 12 27 9 + 6 (base)
[​IMG] Taverns 3
[​IMG] Merc Camps 3 (Cityscape)
[​IMG] Goblin Merchants 4
[​IMG] Goblin Labs 4
[​IMG] Marketplaces 1
[​IMG] Fountains of Health 3
[​IMG] Fountains of Mana 1
[​IMG] Gold Mines 10k x 3 + 12.5k x 6 + 15k x 6


Screenshots
Screenshots
[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


Features
Unguarded Fountain of Mana in the center;
Bases are separated from expansions by walls of wood; once one is harvested/destroyed it's easier to defend the expansion, but the main base is exposed.

Changelog
v1.10 — See post
v1.15 — Drops ajusted due to patch. Level 8 Dark Wizzard now drops all lvl5 Charged items. Previously Scroll of Restoration and Talisman of the Wild were restricted from drops for being too strong / too weak. Minor visual improvements.
v1.16 — Too tight chokes widened a little.
v1.18 — 2v2: close-position spawns enforced, so both teams are ablosutely equal.
Contents

High Stakes (Map)

Reviews
mafe
Well, this is a very good map. I also at first thought it looked familiar, but in reality it's only that most Lordaeron Summer map look somewhat similar. -Creeps and items looks good. -The map has overall a mostly good layout, in espcially the centre...
  1. vld99

    vld99

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    There is a porn map who has the same terrain/shape everything or extremely similar.Forgot its name as I played it many years ago.
     
  2. Paillan

    Paillan

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    and this is important because...?
     
  3. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Are you suggesting this map terrain is stolen from the one you mentioned?
    We need a link.
     
  4. FeelsGoodMan

    FeelsGoodMan

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    A what now?
     
  5. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Obviously a typo for a prom map.
     
  6. FeelsGoodMan

    FeelsGoodMan

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    @FeelsGoodMan O my G, look at those mushroom clipping skills.
     
  8. Deserted

    Deserted

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    I'd like to see the link too.
    Though high similarity is barely possible bc reasoning behind map layout is connected to game mechanics that weren't there 'many years ago'.
     
  9. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I mean, since it's, well, graphic, send me a P.M. or something.
    Cornography is against the rules.
     
  10. vld99

    vld99

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    I will try to find it today and if I do will pm it to you.
     
  11. mafe

    mafe

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    Well, this is a very good map. I also at first thought it looked familiar, but in reality it's only that most Lordaeron Summer map look somewhat similar.

    -Creeps and items looks good.
    -The map has overall a mostly good layout, in espcially the centre is interesting with the different neutral buildings.. I'd like to have fewer dead ends though.
    -The unguarded mana fountain is a nice unusual feature.
    -The "destroy trees to open paths" thing normally never really works. But here it is not shoved down the player throats, so I'm actually for once ok with it.
    -The terrain looks also. I mean, we've all seen numerous Lordaeron Summer maps by now, so it's nothing which I'm too excited about on it's own. But the map is certainly look as good as any ladder map.
    -These nonstandard Merc Camps could work here in a map for team games.

    Two things I would change are:
    -Right now, several creepspots are placed in such a way that player units might accidentially walk too close and be attacked. In particular, it's bound to happen in the centre, and it might also happen at some other creepcamps. In some places this can be fixed easily, in others probably not.
    -There is a very slim chance that the merc camp southeast of the tavern, a merc might spawn on the left side of the merc camp and be trapped.

    Given the overall high quality of the map, this is not enought to require an update, even though I hope you might do something about these two issues. Nevertheless, map approved.
     
  12. Deserted

    Deserted

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    Map Updated.
    Fixed.
    I have added 3 rock clusters in the centre. It have changed pathing in a way creeps are no longer attacking bypassing units: [​IMG]
    In other places I've just added more trees to fix the issue.

    Thank you for your feedback!
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Those rocks aren't going to be enough lol.
    Units that move diagonally have the wonkiest pathing and will go deep into those camps.
    It's pretty much an unsolvable problem unless you make the camp really deep or making the units walk strictly horisontal/vertically past it.
    It's somewhat allievated by the fact that heroes will want to head to fountain first, but it's bad for worker rushes which is more common in games with more players.
    My way of testing pathing is to run 12 knights past most camps and check for aggro.
    Even tournament maps have aggro problems so ehh..
    Ex: https://www.hiveworkshop.com/attachments/pathfinding2-jpg.321222/


    I think the base layout is fine, but you will need major tweaks to make it tournament viable.
    The first is that the map isn't wide enough for big fights.
    The more players a map has the bigger the fights will be, especially if games go on for long enough.
    Fountains for example can make games drag on for really long so your map should be plenty wide.

    Therefore i recommend trimming the hedge where you can, as marked in red in the attached picture.
    The paths from base to enemy or friend feels restrictive.
    I recommend merging the starting base with the nearby expansion for more space.
    I would say these are almost necessary changes to make the map feel good, but would require you to "kill your darlings".

    I'm not sure about the tavern positions, i don't like them because you can quickly ressurect your hero if it dies.
    Which can be annoying if you fend off an attacker by slaying their hero and they quickly resume the fight by "force buying" at the tavern.
    Though i don't see much of an alternative, since placing one near the mana fountain would be pretty cancer to deal with.

    Balance wise i think the expansions on the plateus are a bit too safe.
    Make a tower island and you're secure for the rest of the game pretty much.
    The center is a little too loaded with juicy stuff and you can even pull while having mana in the back.
    I think the map has a little too many features, i could see health fountains replaced by gold mines or mana fountain replaced by a tavern.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Deserted

    Deserted

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    Thanks for very detailed feedback!

    I am convinced the map should forgive loss of controll over only individual units such as scouts and rallied units.
    And this map does exactly that. Individual units move over the red path consistenly: footman, knights, fiends, kodos — all of them use the same path and none trigger aggro.

    On the other hand, it's players who are responsible for controlling their armies.
    So making it failsafe for big unit groups (such as 8-12 knights) is both pointless and bad for aestetics as it feels really artificial.
    Those gold mines mostly expire before starting ones.
    Indeed, but creepjack here might be devastating.
    There are pletnty of chokes and semi-chokes (able to fit 1.5-2 lategame armies) but there are a lot of open areas too.
    I'm going to widen some chokes, but it's just 1-2-3 medium tile adjusments.
    Each team has 2 borders: one with merc camp, the other with fountain of health and tavern.
    Team defending the merc camp one clearly has advantage in terms of tavern avaliability. I think it's completely OK to have such an advantage on the defence.
    During an attack on fountain direction, tavern gives agvantage to the attackers. On the other hand, defenders can use other features. For example set up a flank attack from the middle having shop, marketplace and (last but not least) fountain of mana in the back.

    Personally, I don't like single tavern on the map.

    About moving start locations.
    That would make complitely different map.
    Those changes would make the map too basic. Also, worker rushes gonna be too annoying.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  15. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    If you can send 1-3 workers past without aggro then it's probably fine.
    It depends on how early those camps are crept i think.

    Those changes would make it different yes, but it's kind of necessary.
    If you look at 3v3, 4v4 maps by blizzard they're generally open wide with very few "paths".
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Something to keep in mind at least when you start making a new 4v4 map.
    Murgul's Oasis, Gold Rush and Battlegrounds serves as better examples though since they're more popular maps in general and they also happen to be very wide.
    If you want to focus on the design of such maps, the beauty has to lie in the terrain and not the doodads.
     
  16. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson

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    For some reason the map did not show up even though I downloaded it. Any ideas?
     
  17. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Maybe you are not using patch 1.32+?
     
  18. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson

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    That may be the reason.

    Where do I look for required patches for maps?
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    recomen.png

    Current means anything 1.32+, basically past 1.31.1.