Diablo 3 Was A Letdown

[Radicool]

Edit: Since there is a heated discussion on this thread , any new reader's should take note of this (original post) and comment on that. Saves hours of reading consequent posts.

I looked at a thread called "Why Diablo III Sucks", but I don't think it quite addressed the problem. So I thought I'd create a detailed thread in dot points about why Diablo III was not a fun game. I might edit this thread to add more points if I think of anything else. Feel free to discuss.


Loot

• Loot was a huge disappointment in just too many ways. It is sad that this is the case because loot is so important to a Diablo game. For starters, reasonable loot does not drop. Drop rates were initially very low. I could not find any items which allowed me to progress in the game. I had a really bad weapon, meaning I dealt no damage and couldn't kill very well. Blizzard increased drop rates to seemingly fix the problem, however this made things worse. More yellows dropped, but it didn't matter because 95% of them were useless. I got very bored of identifying yellow items. In D1-2, I did not have a problem acquiring loot which was worthy of an upgrade every now and then. In D3, I had to resort to the auction house to progress. I am not saying I'd prefer amazing loot. That would not be fun. I simply wanted an item for my lvl 50 char to replace my lvl 20 wep which wasn't an axe or a sword for my witch doctor.

Items

• Items were so boring and repetitive. Every item revolved around stats. Since Diablo 3 decided to increase the importance of stats, every item must revolve around these stats. That means every blue or better item has stats listed at the top. The item must roll the character's main stat, or the item is worthless.
  
• Items have so little affixes. No items offer build diversity. Items that improve certain skills are incredibly rare (I never found one that wasnt on the AH). Unless you consider mana on hit or hp regen to be super interesting, there was no interesting affixes. Diablo 2 had so many affixes which opened up build diversities. Additionally, all these affixes mean less, because they have so little affect on the character compared to stats.

Music

• The music had little effect in Diablo 3. There were many less memorable songs in D3 than in D1-2. Music is a powerful tool to convey emotions. This basically enhances the atmosphere of the game which I will explain later. Please take a look at these songs and tell me they arn't as scary or sad as D3. Also, can you recall any songs in Diablo 3 other than the title screen and the tristram song?
  D1 Hell - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yul_AGm-7GI
  D1-2 Tristram - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2evIg-aYw8
  
  Edit: I have provided more informatiom on the music side of Diablo 3. To be honest, the music in Diablo 3 isnt half bad. Here is a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkrA5R-he0k
  
  
• There are however 2 problems with Diablo 3's music. Firstly, Diablo 3 is a completely different style than D2. I mean, completely. This is a big mistake. It doesn't enhance the music element of Diablo, but it changes it into something different for no reason. This is likely because the music director of Diablo 1 and 2 unfortunately left. The music of the Diablo series is identifed and known by those games it is in. It is wrong to change the identity of the music. Simply put, it isn't Diablo music anymore. Thats the sad thing about it. Diablo 3 did this to many aspects of the game, including the graphics.
• Secondly, as pointed out previously, the music does not stand out. It is too ambient. This is not always a bad thing, however the game lacks any memerable songs. I can't hum or whistle a song, because the are no songs with the exception of the loading screen. I can recall all of Diablo's songs. Diablo 3 is just ambience.

Atmosphere

• The atmosphere was a letdown. Diablo 3 is rated MA. It is considered a "Gothic Horror". I can confidently say I was not scared, sad, happy, or really anything in Diablo 3. Emotionless in fact. The only time I felt something was before you versed that spider in Act 3, where those giants cried in agony. 1 small part of the game.
  
• The graphics became more cartoony. There was less blood, and/or was less emphasized. The colours of the game featured more purples, oranges, bright and colourful. As some people say it was like their wizard was lighting the game up like a christmas tree with their abilities. Diablo 1-2 was more serious, featured more browns and greys.
  
• Light radius was removed. I don't care about the item affix which gives light radius. The point is, the edge of your screen is darker. Enemies hide in that darkness which creates fear, uncertainty. You cannot see enemies, but simply hear little moans, etc. In diablo 1, horned demons charged at you from the edge of the screen. letting off a roar. It kind of made you jump! It was thrilling! Diablo 3 didnt have anything.
  
• Bosses said lame things like "die nephalem" and other lame comments. It was lame, not scary and definatley not realistic. They talked you to death. Bosses in D2 particularly always featured fast movement speed and constantly chased you as if they were desperate to splatter your blood against the wall. You had to run. Look at the Durial fight in act 2!!! That Boss was creepy and very aggresive!! I understand Diablo 3 has more interesting boss mechanics, but they could have moments where they chase you a bit.

Auction House

• Well theres really not much to say. People paying for their items will ruin PVP in my eyes, but thats simply a matter of opinion. I feel very dependant upon the auction house for items as stated in my "Loot" heading because I cannot find any loot. Its a sad feature to the game, driven by Blizzard's greed. 3rd party gold and item places for D2 was definately there, but it wasn't looked at kindly, reccommended or anything. Now blizzard is like, yeah its gonna happen anyway, so heres the deal. We'll supply the items for you now....

Story

• The Story is a joke. It is so lame and predictable. Cain could have been slain in a more heroic way, by a more meaningful boss or something. Would have been interesting to see a cinematic of him fighting somebody instead of being murdered by magda the butterfly lady. There are lame characters, which are developed rather poorly. The storyline is full of cliche's. Its ultimately a sad story. Yes this is a game, but I don't hack "n" slash my way thorugh demons without a purpose.
  
  Diablo 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn_3CTFMt7Q
  Diablo 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRz91D4zVGs
  
  Look the answer couldnt be any clearer. Diablo 2 is serious, Diablo 3 is a joke.

Customization

• This is mainly due to the fact there are no options to allocate skill points or stats. The witch Doctor beside you is a clone of yours, just different items. Dying your armor pink isn't exactly customization? lol. I have no incentive to start new characters to try to make him differently, there is simply no point whatsoever. Its boring. I agree it was sad if you built your Diablo 2 character wrong, he was screwed. But maybe there could be a rather expensive price to reset stats/skill points. This why you can still remake your character, without owning every skill and being identical to the other character of the same class.

Random Map Generation

• Not much to say on this point. Simply put, there is so less random map generation than D2, and even than D1. It makes farming so much more repetitive. Sad really.

Mercenaries

• Well, I wasn't sure to put this in the good list or thr bad list. There are certainly upsides to mercenaries such as incorporating them within the storyline of the game. They have more skills, and not only that, you can pick which skills they use. Diablo 3 had the potential to be so much more though, and its a shame they limited them on purpose. Mercenaries are not available in multiplayer and they are kind of useless. My templar mercenary cannot take many hits. And for some reason, the AI of all monsters ignore the mercenary for some reason. They walk past him and either attack any summons you have or your main character. So the tank mercenary cant or doesnt tank for you. I'm not even going to mention what a joke his damage is. All my mercenary is, is a healbot.
• The developers didnt want mercenaries to be stronger than your main character. But they dont have to be and can still actually help you. Diablo 2 mercenaries were so much useful than D3 mercenaries, and you could actually use them in multiplayer.

Community

• The interface of Diablo 3 is so much poorer than D2. It is probebly relating to Battlenet 2.0. I know Starcarft 2 had a pretty crap community. Warcraft 3 for example automatically put you into large chat channels. Also, the chat channels were very evident and took up a lot of the screen. Same in D1-2 and SC1. Diablo 2 had a row of characters in the chat channel and a picture of their character. The support for communicating with others was so much better in D1 and D2 than D3. I think Diablo 3 has a large picture in the background. Nice, but I think a community is more important than a picture.
• Also people are automatically put into games. You search for the quest you want to do and are matched with randoms. Its kinda bad that you cant create a custom game with a custom name like what Diablo 2 had. It was easier to ask for requests. Trading games, dueling games, Pve, "Rush me Plz", etc. You canm no longer ask for special requests. Even things like "I'm Bored, lets Talk". People then get the games they want, and join the game for the right reasons.

 

[Dr Super Good]

A lot of your complaints have shallow backing arguments. You also left yourself very open to people listing psoitive sides to Diablo III that you did not.

 

[Radicool]

I suppose pointing out "good" parts of the game is irrelevant to the thread. I'll deleat that. Overall, its a disappointing game in my eyes, and instead of reflecting bias, I try to explain why it is a bad game. I think the youtube comparisons are a good watch, particularly the 2 under the "Story" heading.

A lot of your complaints have shallow backing arguments.

Just trying to open the eyes of people. I have put a lot of thought into what I think is wrong with Diablo 3. I am pretty sure I have identified that the game is in fact bad and what exactly makes it bad. Some people "feel" D3 is not as fun as doesn't have the "flare" that D1 and 2 had. I am simply explaining what exactly is missing from the game. A backing argument should not be needed. Playing the game should provide enough understanding of the flaws of the game.

If you want me to ellaborate on any points, just ask. However, I can't understand what is so shallow about my arguement.

Don't get me wrong. I would have loved the game to be fun. I really loved the old Diablos and it's upsetting to see Diablo 3. But I'm not going to lie to myself and say "the game is fun". Because simply put. It isn't.

 

[Dr Super Good]

For starters, reasonable loot does not drop.

Yet I get reasonable loot all the time (sells for 100ks)... Nothing epic but then again I never get epic loot. My boots were self-found and with their near perfect dexterity, vitality, all resistance and magic find nearly irriplacable.

Which is why Blizzard fixed this.

Blizzard increased drop rates to seemingly fix the problem, however this made things worse. More yellows dropped, but it didn't matter because 95% of them were useless.

Which is exactly like all other Diablos. I remember leaving both uniques and sets on the floor all the time back in Diablo II as they were junk beyond junk.

In D1-2, I did not have a problem acquiring loot which was worthy of an upgrade every now and then.

Neither do I in Diablo III. Upgrades become difficult when your gear becomes good but this is the same as Diablo II where if you have an enigma you will hardly be making another in the near future for better stats due to its insane cost.

I had to resort to the auction house to progress.

Which is why the game has one. In Diablo II I had to resort to trade to progress since Ber would never drop for me.

I simply wanted an item for my lvl 50 char to replace my lvl 20 wep which wasn't an axe or a sword for my witch doctor.

Use auction house to buy yourself a level 60 weapon with -10-16 all requirements. Cost is about 100k or less in Softcore (more in Hardcore) and will allow you to 1-shot everything up until late Hell mode. At level 60 these items are totally worthless as you can get 1k+ damage weapons for vendor value almost.

The item must roll the character's main stat, or the item is worthless.

Not nescescarilly. In the case of amulets and gloves you can still have very good ones worth a lot without primary attribute. For example an amulet with +damage, +AS, +critc and +critd all with high rolls would still be worth millions even if it has no primary attribute.

Drop rates were initially very low. I could not find any items which allowed me to progress in the game. I had a really bad weapon, meaning I dealt no damage and couldn't kill very well.

Items have so little affixes. No items offer build diversity. Items that improve certain skills are incredibly rare (I never found one that wasnt on the AH). Unless you consider mana on hit or hp regen to be super interesting, there was no interesting affixes. Diablo 2 had so many affixes which opened up build diversities. Additionally, all these affixes mean less, because they have so little affect on the character compared to stats.

You have not seen a Sacrifice Witch Doctor have you... The one that uses items to lower the cooldown of zombie dogs to 0 seconds? The one that spams Sacrifice every second?

That is not the only example.... Throwing Barb? Meteor Wizard? To name a few that are made possible thanks to item affixes.

The music had little effect in Diablo 3. There were many less memorable songs in D3 than in D1-2. Music is a powerful tool to convey emotions.

I turned music off anyway. Interfears with my own music.

I can confidently say I was not scared, sad, happy, or really anything in Diablo 3. Emotionless in fact. The only time I felt something was before you versed that spider in Act 3, where those giants cried in agony. 1 small part of the game.

The only time I felt anything in Diablo II was when I crushed a snake because of stupid critter AI. Nothing has changed...

There was less blood, and/or was less emphasized.

I have no clue what you are talking about... In Diablo III blood literally splats everywher when you kill stuff. Of course it depends on how since killing them with fire or poison will have different death effects which are far more gruesome. Mostly Physical and Arcane splatters the most blood.

The colours of the game featured more purples, oranges, bright and colourful.

Diablo II did not have those due to a technical reason, namely that they maxed out their pallets so unless they sacrificed colour depths in other areas (less grey tones) they would have to leave out those colours. Diablo III uses full 32 bit colour so has no problem using them.

As some people say it was like their wizard was lighting the game up like a christmas tree with their abilities.

Welcome to realistic lighting. Firing a huge plasma ark at enemies in the form of a lightning bolt would light the place up considerably.

Diablo 1-2 was more serious, featured more browns and greys.

Because they needed to give stuff detail and lacked the pallet space for bright colours at the same time. It is the same reason why Age of Empires has such funny looking terrain at times, there was just not enough colour left.

Light radius was removed. I don't care about the item affix which gives light radius. The point is, the edge of your screen is darker. Enemies hide in that darkness which creates fear, uncertainty. You cannot see enemies, but simply hear little moans, etc. In diablo 1, horned demons charged at you from the edge of the screen. letting off a roar. It kind of made you jump! It was thrilling! Diablo 3 didnt have anything.

D3 does have light radius, just only in some dungeons. You can see this as nearby shadows orignate from your hero. Also the effect did not to atmosphere in Diablo II because of the buggy and broken game engine. On some video cards when runnin Diablo II in Direct3D mode it resuled it enemies with colour tints clowing through the light radius. You could literally see enemies behind a door as they were poison enhanced and glowing bright green. Every poison bolt fired would light entire coradoors in Diablo II green due to their crappy lighting system being written for voodoo graphic cards.

Bosses in D2 particularly always featured fast movement speed and constantly chased you as if they were desperate to splatter your blood against the wall. You had to run.

They were weak and lame in Diablo II. Andarial died in a few hits to anything fire. Durail was a joke if you had 75% block and max cold resistance (any palidan). Mephisto was brain dead and allowed you to blow him up from across his own bloody pool. Diablo was difficult due to his rigged skills but once you were strong enough died instantly as he gave you 2-3 seconds to pummel him when he was first summoned. Finally was baal, the greatest loser of them all since all it took was a merc with 2 sources of slow and he would stand there taunting you unable to do anything.

Compare this to the uber Kule and Siege Break fight and they really looked like a joke. Not old is the Siege Breaker reflect damage but kule will show you no mercy with his constant fireball and tornado spam.

Yes Diablo II LoD had ubers, but the only thing hard with them was not getting the server to crash due to them spamming too many minions or skills.

I feel very dependant upon the auction house for items as stated in my "Loot" heading because I cannot find any loot.

Which is its purpose. You find items you do not need and sell them to people who do need them. They find items they do not need and sell them to you who does need them. It is called trade.

The Story is a joke. It is so lame and predictable. Cain could have been slain in a more heroic way, by a more meaningful boss or something. Would have been interesting to see a cinematic of him fighting somebody instead of being murdered by magda the butterfly lady. There are lame characters, which are developed rather poorly. The storyline is full of cliche's. Its ultimately a sad story. Yes this is a game, but I don't hack "n" slash my way thorugh demons without a purpose.

Cain was a wimp even in Diablo II and diserved to die such a stupid death. If he learned any of the sorcresses magic from Diablo II he could have easilly blasted Magda to Hell but no. He was incable of fighting off even the most basic of skeletons, we all remember how we saved him in tristram from a few ACT 1 FALLEN back in Diablo II, the kind that you sneeze and they are bleeding on the floor.

This is mainly due to the fact there are no options to allocate skill points or stats.

Did not play Diablo II much did you? See that Hammerdin over there? Yup same allocation as yours. That Smiter? Same as yours. That Meteor sorcress? Same as yours...

1. Skill allocation resulted in an even more broken skill system. Most skills in Diablo II were usless and many were only useful as synergies. Some were 1 point wonders due to items boosting skill levels.
2. There was no stat allocation choice in Diablo II. It was always gear first, dex for max block (if palidan) then all in vitality. It was a false pretense that you could customize.

Not much to say on this point. Simply put, there is so less random map generation than D2, and even than D1. It makes farming so much more repetitive. Sad really.

Maps are about as random, just smaller. Take Kurast for example, that was almost identical from game to game but was huge.

Well, I wasn't sure to put this in the good list or thr bad list. There are certainly upsides to mercenaries such as incorporating them within the storyline of the game. They have more skills, and not only that, you can pick which skills they use. Diablo 3 had the potential to be so much more though, and its a shame they limited them on purpose. Mercenaries are not available in multiplayer and they are kind of useless. My templar mercenary cannot take many hits. And for some reason, the AI of all monsters ignore the mercenary for some reason. They walk past him and either attack any summons you have or your main character. So the tank mercenary cant or doesnt tank for you. I'm not even going to mention what a joke his damage is. All my mercenary is, is a healbot.

Diablo III does not have mercanaries for the reason of emphising the heroes more. In Diablo II it was all too easy to get your Act 2 mercanary (only usuable merc) and then use him to tank the rest of the game for you.

In Diablo III you need to be able to take the hits. You need to rely on yourself or friends. You cannot have some stupid computer controled lacky doing half your work.

The developers didnt want mercenaries to be stronger than your main character. But they dont have to be and can still actually help you. Diablo 2 mercenaries were so much useful than D3 mercenaries, and you could actually use them in multiplayer.

They were not just helpful, they were better than your character. Super fast healing, high health, hig damage, rigged skills, all this made them brokenly strong. Infact it was the mercs fault that energy was worthless since insight polearms gave you seemingly unlimited.

 

[Radicool]

I cannot agree with any of your points. You have used 1 or so small aspects of the game to disagree with every point I made. Open your eyes. Your so very wrong.

Yet I get reasonable loot all the time (sells for 100ks)... Nothing epic but then again I never get epic loot. My boots were self-found and with their near perfect dexterity, vitality, all resistance and magic find nearly irriplacable.

Who gives a crap how much an item is worth on the AH. I hate the Auction house and do not like it. Its the equivalent of a 3rd party website on D2. Its not in the nature of the game to use it, and therefore I do not. I do not want to use the AH. The fact that I am forced to, or need to use it (which you have clearly stated in your argument) is just an outrage. This nulifies any other AH arguement you made, to shorten my debate.

Which is exactly like all other Diablos.

The frequency of yellow drops is so high In diablo 3. Let me relate to Diablo 2. Blues are frequent. Yellows were something special. Golds were hard to find. Now in Diablo 3, blues are still frequent. Yellows are not really that special anymore. Golds are hard to find. Yellows have lost their meaning of value. This was not the case in Diablo 2.

Not nescescarilly. In the case of amulets and gloves you can still have very good ones worth a lot without primary attribute.

Ok, so the ami doesn't need your main stat. Well everything else does then. Happy? That means the more important items like ur weapon, body armor, gloves, etc, all rely heavily on stats in 95% of cases.

You have not seen a Sacrifice Witch Doctor have you... The one that uses items to lower the cooldown of zombie dogs to 0 seconds? The one that spams Sacrifice every second?

Don't argue that items offer more builds or they have more interesting affixes. Open your eyes. Please. Never argue. That items in Diablo. Are actually, interesting or fun. Or offer. Many kinds of builds.

The only time I felt anything in Diablo II was when I crushed a snake because of stupid critter AI. Nothing has changed...

Really...You didn't even feel anything? The gore, darkness, screams and cries wern't enough for you...

Welcome to realistic lighting. Firing a huge plasma ark at enemies in the form of a lightning bolt would light the place up considerably.

Dude. There is nothing realistic about the art direction and the unatural choice of colours that all the abilites use. There is absolutely nothing realistic about any kind of ability in terms of colours and style. Lightning looks so smooth, lights up in strange colours. Additionally, they could have chosen more "gritty" colours to light up the atmosphere. Everything doesn't have to look so happy. Its a bloody "Gothic Horror MA" rated game for goodness sake. So why did they have a kid from kindygarden get out his pencil set and draw rainbows?

They were weak and lame in Diablo II.

You missed my arguemnt completely. I am aware bosses in Diablo are mechanically more interesting. They are just completely gay in Diablo 3. Their quotes, their aggresion levels, the way the walk, etc. Bosses aggresion in Diablo 2 was more interesting, scarier, more intimidating. I am simply saying they should have worked on the "flare" of bosses, rather than completely focusing on mechanics. It kind of relates to the emotional impact and atmosphere of the game, which you don;t seem to care about.

Cain was a wimp even in Diablo II and diserved to die such a stupid death. If he learned any of the sorcresses magic from Diablo II he could have easilly blasted Magda to Hell but no. He was incable of fighting off even the most basic of skeletons, we all remember how we saved him in tristram from a few ACT 1 FALLEN back in Diablo II, the kind that you sneeze and they are bleeding on the floor.

You didn't watch the videos did you. Diablo 2 is badass. Diablo 3 is a pussies game.

Maps are about as random, just smaller. Take Kurast for example, that was almost identical from game to game but was huge.

Completely disagree. There is much, MUCH less random map generation. Yes they are smaller, oyur right there. However, there are so many more set location is Diablo 3 is not even funny. Just sad. Knowing the exact layout of so many places is lame.

Diablo III does not have mercanaries for the reason of emphising the heroes more. In Diablo II it was all too easy to get your Act 2 mercanary (only usuable merc) and then use him to tank the rest of the game for you.

Just an un-neccecary change. Mercenaries didn't win the game for you. They were however very useful. My templar n Diablo 3 is just a healbot. AI ignores him (so he doesnt tank). Under the very (very) rare circumstance hes attacked, he survives 2-3 hits despite his good armor. Not to mention to tiny amount of damage he can output.

They were not just helpful, they were better than your character. Super fast healing, high health, hig damage, rigged skills, all this made them brokenly strong. Infact it was the mercs fault that energy was worthless since insight polearms gave you seemingly unlimited.

Wrong again. They were very useful, they did not surpass your actual person. Broken skills? I don't think there was anything wrong with them.

 

[Dr Super Good]

I hate the Auction house and do not like it.

That is an opinion. That does not mean "The Auction House is bad".

I love the auction house as it makes item trading safe and easy.

Its the equivalent of a 3rd party website on D2.

The only reason those were bad was the "third party" part as they were often making money from a feature that in the end they offered no legal coverage for.

Its not in the nature of the game to use it, and therefore I do not.

It is in the nature of the game by the fact it was a key design point early in the development.

The fact that I am forced to, or need to use it (which you have clearly stated in your argument) is just an outrage.

In your opinion. Most people are perfectly happy using the auction house. Once I had some gold I saw no problem going to the auction house and gearing up. My luck is terrible so being able to get good gear easilly is great. Items that would normally be totally usless to me (or in D2 useful to the 1/1,000,000 players) I can actually sell for something usable.

The frequency of yellow drops is so high In diablo 3. Let me relate to Diablo 2. Blues are frequent. Yellows were something special. Golds were hard to find. Now in Diablo 3, blues are still frequent. Yellows are not really that special anymore. Golds are hard to find. Yellows have lost their meaning of value. This was not the case in Diablo 2.

In Diablo II it was...
Magics were frequent but left on ground unless a special type (charms for example).
Rares were total scrap unless ceratin types (cause they were mostly weaker than magicals).
95% of Set and Unique drops (which happened very often, usually 4-6 every all boss run) were junk.

Nope, no change at all.

Ok, so the ami doesn't need your main stat. Well everything else does then. Happy? That means the more important items like ur weapon, body armor, gloves, etc, all rely heavily on stats in 95% of cases.

That is what gear does... In Diablo II you depended on Faster Cast Rate and +skill properties for caster builds.

Don't argue that items offer more builds or they have more interesting affixes. Open your eyes. Please. Never argue. That items in Diablo. Are actually, interesting or fun. Or offer. Many kinds of builds.

I tried many kinds of builds in Diablo II. Most were ineffectual or stupidly costly. In the end Necromancer and Sorcress had the best returns for gear cost to usability. Necromancer revives could tank the hardest foes. Sorcress could easilly deal 20k+ DPS without any HR gear.

Really...You didn't even feel anything? The gore, darkness, screams and cries wern't enough for you...

Not at all... When I can see glowing green enemies through doors that gets kind of lost... Or especially the part where all dungeons are randomly generated so any kind of feeling that something bad happened there is lost by the fact a machine has just put blocks together.

Dude. There is nothing realistic about the art direction and the unatural choice of colours that all the abilites use. There is absolutely nothing realistic about any kind of ability in terms of colours and style. Lightning looks so smooth, lights up in strange colours. Additionally, they could have chosen more "gritty" colours to light up the atmosphere. Everything doesn't have to look so happy. Its a bloody "Gothic Horror MA" rated game for goodness sake. So why did they have a kid from kindygarden get out his pencil set and draw rainbows?

Because why would there not be such colours in a "Gothic Horror MA"? It is not like just because people are portraded as dying in gruesome ways that all yellows and purples suddenly evaporate leaving only greys... Next you will be saying that anything to do with WW2 has to be grey and mono-tone.

They are just completely gay in Diablo 3.

I am prety sure this site does not support minority oppresions...

Bosses aggresion in Diablo 2 was more interesting, scarier, more intimidating.

No? It was just more.... well... stupid... The unskilled balencing took the approach of "take everything and multiply it by 2" so they also increased their movement speed. In the case of Mephisto this was pointless as he was a caster in the first place. Also they did nothing to give them the slightest bit of AI so as to stop you standing from safety and killing them offscreen. Especially since Mephisto was meant to be the smartest of the Prime Evils, this was rather dissapointing in Diablo II.

You didn't watch the videos did you. Diablo 2 is badass. Diablo 3 is a pussies game.

What does that have to do with Cain being so helpless some Act 1 fallen guys managed to trap him in a poorly built cage?

Knowing the exact layout of so many places is lame.

Tell that to Durance of Hate... World Stone 2... Countess Tower... All of them followed similar patterns that if you knew the entrance you knew where to look for the exit to next floor.

Mercenaries didn't win the game for you.

Tell that to the Sorcress... Without that Insight I would never make it through Hell mode so easilly. Infinite Mana FTF.

AI ignores him (so he doesnt tank). Under the very (very) rare circumstance hes attacked, he survives 2-3 hits despite his good armor. Not to mention to tiny amount of damage he can output.

Yet my Enchantress...
Boosts my Gold and Magic Find by 12%.
Deals 11k DPS.
Boosts my Attack Speed.
Will kill trash mobs even in Inferno MP1-2 quite easilly.

Even better is that no enemies attack her making her nearly never die. Now if only I had a spare Hell Fire Ring for her, yes she could proc that as well...

Or what about the Scoundral.... How he can proc freeze on multiple targets thanks to a under ratted legendary crossbow. Throw in amulet with Blind...

Wrong again. They were very useful, they did not surpass your actual person.

You clearly have not played Diablo II much... First there is Might, Holy Frost and Prayer which are all formidible auras alone. Throw in gear and you can get Conviction, Meditation and Concentration aura at your disposal. On top of this the mercanary will hardly ever die against even tough monsters while you blast them and will deal high damage every attack.

Having problem with Baal? Holy Frost + Kelpie Snare and enjoy laughing at what a broken game Diablo II is.

 

[Edhel-dur]

DSG you attack a lot of technicality about D2. And while your observations are correct, they are not absolute. I will check back later and try and construct a good post, because you are missing some key things.

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Diablo II, yeah sure I agree it's faulty. Sure they were never able to proper balance all the mechanics in the game. Diablo II is faulty, but it's on those faults that the Diablo franchise established itself, from way back D1 days.

You say that the only reason D2 is using that color palette is because of the technical limitations. And I agree! However, that color palette is part of the identity of the franchise. It's like Coca-Cola changing from white & red to pink because it's the combination of white & red and they just couldn't reproduce pink. Well tough luck. You set out to achieve one thing, but you didn't manage due to limitations, yet your franchise has grown to such extent that changing the very color palette it's famous for, means changing the entire franchise. I'm sorry but D3 could have looked like Path of Exile, if Blizzard wanted to, but they didn't. They wanted to continue and spread the cartoon style of graphics into all their franchises, because it's more appealing in order for larger profits. Having a cartoon style achieved three things:

1 - Better for older computer speccs.
2 - More attractive to younger audiences and to the recent Blizz fan base.
3 - I noticed that cartoon style games tend to be the more popular choice. Three names: World of Warcraft, League of Legends, Team Fortress 2. I agree that there is more to it than just graphics (like D3 proves), but still, it's an observation I believe is valid.

So, the choice Blizzard took, wasn't for the better of the franchise, it was profit driven, nothing to do with making things look cooler. If they really wanted, they could have kept the same art style and color palette and the game would have still looked great, just like Path of Exile proves. Now that the graphics issue has been properly explained, let's move to the rest of the issues.


Diablo II, broken game, imbalanced but fun.
Maybe it wasn't fun to the most competitive of us. But for sure it was fun. Because it had incentive to play. I will admit that I didn't play much D2. I stopped at Act2 Nightmare with my Assassin. But my friend, he played the shit out of D2. He had multiple characters, his favorite to play were Barbarian and Sorceress. He traded with people so many runes and stuff, built Enigma's, don't remember everything. But he played a lot, he started playing when we were in school, and stopped playing sometime around end of high-school. And he was mostly a casual, he wasn't hardcore, die hard fan, playing all day... No... he had a social life, he went out, he got drunk, etc etc, and yet he still enjoyed Diablo II because it was fun. Because Diablo 2 did a great job of feeling personal. Because if your character was poorly built, it was your fault. If your character had a good build, well you were at least intelligent enough to google one. And as you were playing your character, you would look at the skill tree and think "Hmm, bet I could improve it" or "bet I could make things different". And you would start making a new character, of same class, and as you progressed through content, you would be able to compare if your idea was actually good or not. And than sure, you would have to enter websites, create custom games and spend large amounts of time trading in order to get what you wanted. That was great, because again, it gave you personal weight... you literary worked and concentrated your efforts into obtaining the respective rune and you finally had your Enigma.

To give a better example, think that you want to buy oranges, but your not going to buy from the fucking super market. You are going to buy from a small, private, grocery shop. And you go there, and it's the same guy selling you oranges. You say 'hi' and you tell him to weigh you some oranges, he than gives them to you, and you give him the money, than you ask him if he has apples but he doesn't, so you go home with your oranges. That made the community not only be alive but feel alive. And you can say 'fuck that, that's inefficient, robot would be faster'. And I will disagree, but more on that later.

So you see the actual difference between having stat points and not having stat points? And having skill trees to not having skill trees? Sure, faulty, cookie cutter, but... personal, with weight.

But instead of taking the faulty design with clear superior weight, they decided to change the design. They ripped so much from the WoW textbook, entire volumes, it's obscene. Should I start with the fact that all the stat points are auto-allocated, or with the fact that gear gets you through content, or that you are limited like a new born child on how your ability usage pays out. Let me translate what they did, they said 'Diablo II design is faulty, instead of improving the faulty yet loved design, in order for the player to not break anything, let's constrain him to the point he is unable to break anything', and that is what they did, literary. They took out the weight behind decisions.

Now, back to trading, yes Trading!!!
Okay so we got the AH, it's fun, it's fast, its Dominion!!!... oh wait I mean, it's RMAH. Issues, well for one thing, it's not personal. You type a name, look at a list, make some small calculations like which one is cheaper and which one has the better stats, and you're done. Hurra for technology. Okay so it isn't so bad, the experience I mean. What is bad tho, is you not getting the drops you need, and eventually you have to make a choice in this game. Do you continue to repeatedly grind to God knows when until your desired item drops? Or do you take a tour to the AH? Well, an adventurer would grind? Right?... Well he would... but at one point I am assuming he is so angry that the thing doesn't drop, and he looks at his hoarded amounts of golds he has, that he says 'screw it, off to the AH!'. And that right there is incredibly terrible design. I mean are we playing a Diablo game or AH Wars!? Sure it's safe, it's a good system, that's not the problem, the problem is how the entire loot and drop system is built around using the AH.

Diablo II is faulty? Diablo III is faultier, because it's not fun, it provides no incentive to play or even replay. And that was stated by the blizzard community, that's why silly paragon levels and MP were added. You have to go through Normal first, and each difficulty before reaching Inferno? Because maybe when this genre of ARPG was just new and on the rise, sure it made sense. But now? Now there are so many old school players, why not respect them, and allow difficulty settings from the beginning?

Not to mention, and this will go down in history for me: playing Hardcore and dieing because you got disconnected from the server.


DSG you should really try Path of Exile and Torchlight 2.

And you know what, I am not here to attack your tastes. But what I am here for, I am here because saying that D2 sucked because the math was all wrong and it couldn't be balanced properly doesn't do justice to the franchise. As an ARPG, D3 sucks more, for ripping out volumes MMO game design and adopting it because of either laziness, profit or both.

Edit: how fitting that my 666th post is about Diablo.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Diablo II, broken game, imbalanced but fun.

Yes, but the problem is that it is far too risky to make such games as they could quite easilly be "broken game, imbalanced and not fun". Thus I believe they shut down Blizzard North as they saw that any future game they produce might not be so lucky.

Looking at Diablo II from a technical point it was nothing special... Yet somehow it was. There is nothing you can do to reliably recreate this sort of game as most games that are technical failures end up being commercial failures.

the problem is how the entire loot and drop system is built around using the AH.

The entire ruin system was built around duping and trading in Diablo II. I never did find a Bur and I played 3 ladder sessions with a total of 2 accounts of characters... Only Bur I got was thorugh trading ists for them while they used to cost 2-3 (before duping removed).

Thus I personally think it is part of the Diablo mechanics to trade.

And it is not like you do not get upgrades in Diablo III. About 50% of the gear my HC characters used while leveling was self-found in the end, the other 50% was from auction house. I could have easilly not used the Auction House but then I would need to grind substantially more (instead of progressing in a near linear way from A1 to A5).

Speaking of Hardcore... That is on area you cannot deny improvement over Diablo II. In Diablo II playing any kind of public Hardcore game was almost certain to end up with some nut joining and killing everyone in seconds. You could also not die from dangerous situations using the famous Esc+Save and Exit exploit. Both these problems were removed in Diablo III so player killing is not directly possible and neither is cheating death. A lot of players who were bored with Diablo III Softcore have moved to Hardcore and said how amazing the experiance is unlike Diablo II where most players would be dead by level 10-20 due to some troll.

So, the choice Blizzard took, wasn't for the better of the franchise, it was profit driven, nothing to do with making things look cooler. If they really wanted, they could have kept the same art style and color palette and the game would have still looked great, just like Path of Exile proves.

Personally I like less serious graphics from time to time. It is not like it makes any difference to the play. In fact one of my complaints with Diablo II was how bland the colour map was (used to leave me feeling slightly depressed at times, nothing to do with the art work only the colours used).

Imagine if Blizzard North was not closed down. You would probably find that in 2005-6 they released Diablo III except with graphics similar to WarCraft III as far as detail goes. People would have complained a lot more then even though the same developers made the game.

There is also another reason why graphics are much simpler in Diablo III than other games at this time. It is aimed at casual players and almost every casual player has the typical "pile of paper clips that they call a computer". Diablo III using Teselation, realistic grass and sight range model would be possible but only 1/8 or less of the players who did play it could have played it.

As it is the Bridge section of Act 3 pushes my computer to its limit due to all the particles and the panoramic background and a 275 GTX is not weak.

 

[Edhel-dur]

Well now you are just dwelling on personal preferences, 'maybes' and issues that were given to be solved anyway.

As for graphics, that's exactly what I said.

As for Blizzard North, I am pretty sure that what didn't set well with Blizzard was more related to copyrights and earnings.

 

[Radicool]

The only reason those were bad was the "third party" part as they were often making money from a feature that in the end they offered no legal coverage for.

The only reason? I don't think so.

It is in the nature of the game by the fact it was a key design point early in the development.

Isn't it a shame for the vast amount of people that hate the guts of the AH, actually revolve around it like planets and the sun being burned by it's presence?

I am prety sure this site does not support minority oppresions...

Forgive me

No? It was just more.... well... stupid... The unskilled balencing took the approach of "take everything and multiply it by 2" so they also increased their movement speed. In the case of Mephisto this was pointless as he was a caster in the first place. Also they did nothing to give them the slightest bit of AI so as to stop you standing from safety and killing them offscreen. Especially since Mephisto was meant to be the smartest of the Prime Evils, this was rather dissapointing in Diablo II.

You continue to bring in faulty AI into this. I am simply saying that they could feature more aggresion. Every 30 seconds or something, become enraged and go on a chasing style of fighting, then return to mechanics. A slow boss is just not scary. Then suddenly the fu**er starts chasing you, and your like s***, run! I think thats more interesting. The blood pumping, the heart racing.

What does that have to do with Cain being so helpless some Act 1 fallen guys managed to trap him in a poorly built cage?

Look at the videos, the very fact that cain didn't put up a fight is irrelevant. The story in Diablo 2 was told with badass cinematics. Diablo 3 allows the graphic engine to do the work. Nice cartoony graphic engine to tell some riveting storyline of course. Of course it has cinematics but its hardly as scary, intimidating, creepy or really anything. I'll say it again. Compare the 2 videos. You decide which one is more interesting. If you say Diablo 3, then I will say no more and my head will explode in confusion.

Tell that to Durance of Hate... World Stone 2... Countess Tower... All of them followed similar patterns that if you knew the entrance you knew where to look for the exit to next floor.

I agree, there was a pattern in some of the areas and dungeons. However, the first and second time playing, I don't think you'd already have figured that out. Even then, a random pattern beats a set area. Although random map generation was a little limited and how you said it "a computer putting blocks together", I actually agree. Given new technologies, better hardware, etc. Its really a disgrace they couldn't improve random map generation to be more realistic. They just removed it completely! Disgrace.

Tell that to the Sorcress... Without that Insight I would never make it through Hell mode so easilly. Infinite Mana FTF.

I loved my Diablo 2, spent so many hours on it. But despite that, I didn;t harvest runes and make uber items. I played casually and wore what I found. I never acheived that power, I think it was only for the serious and the ones who break down and study the game a bit to identify the most effective approach. My merc, although powerful, never surpassed my main character or could never own main boss.

Having problem with Baal? Holy Frost + Kelpie Snare and enjoy laughing at what a broken game Diablo II is.

You talk as if you can just get these items no problem. Sure, freebies on the net, no problem. Trade items with your other character to get those items and trasfer, no problem. That character is likely to at least have gotten some frees.

Did you actually find all that gear yourself? "Oh, having some trouble with Baal here. Hold on, lets get get the best frost item in the game. Fixed! Geez, this game is easy"

Because why would there not be such colours in a "Gothic Horror MA"? It is not like just because people are portraded as dying in gruesome ways that all yellows and purples suddenly evaporate leaving only greys... Next you will be saying that anything to do with WW2 has to be grey and mono-tone.

No, I'm not saying you can't have purple. I'm saying its unrealistic to use so much purple and deep blues, etc. It should not be used to the degree that Diablo 3 uses them. Even with that said, it would be even smarter to try and minimise any happy colours possible to enhance the "scary" atmosphere. Those brown colours the floors were coloured in in some underground passages were just so light and vibrant. For a bloody tunnel filled with monsters, it should be darker, dimmer. Even real life would look darker than Diablo 3.

Diablo II, broken game, imbalanced but fun.

Well I shorted the quote to cut the length. This hit the nail on the head. D2 was not mechanically perfect. There were many flaws I agree. It was however a fun game. Diablo 3 is mechanically better, but its kind of boring. Its lame. It didn't improve Diablo 2, but it changed Diablo 2, until its no longer a sequal, but a different game. They made so many poor choices its not funny. A lot of people say they adopted to many WOW features. I agree.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Given new technologies, better hardware, etc. Its really a disgrace they couldn't improve random map generation to be more realistic. They just removed it completely! Disgrace.

It is not removed. They just prefer the Kurast approach to overworlds (random blocks in static locations). Dungeons are as random as Diablo II but significantly smaller. The closest to a Diablo II dungeon is the various keeps in Act 3 which are made of huge collections of small rooms.

or could never own main boss.

With the Snare + Holy Frost he could easilly solo Baal as Baal did nothing but sit there, unable to act.

Did you actually find all that gear yourself? "Oh, having some trouble with Baal here. Hold on, lets get get the best frost item in the game. Fixed! Geez, this game is easy"

Yes... Infact I found so many running Hell Mephisto that I stupped picking them up alltogether. My brother still has the 3-4 mule accounts filled with worthless junk like IK Mauls that we found.

They made so many poor choices its not funny.

A lot of them are only in your opinion poor.

Those brown colours the floors were coloured in in some underground passages were just so light and vibrant. For a bloody tunnel filled with monsters, it should be darker, dimmer. Even real life would look darker than Diablo 3.

Why do people think that making stuff dark and dull is good... If anything it would annoy people as they want to see to play the game and not have to turn up their brightness/contrast. I remember in Diablo II that I had problems resolving monsters because the game was so dark, it forced me to turn up my brightness which then made overworld areas too bright.

 

[Radicool]

It is not removed. They just prefer the Kurast approach to overworlds (random blocks in static locations). Dungeons are as random as Diablo II but significantly smaller. The closest to a Diablo II dungeon is the various keeps in Act 3 which are made of huge collections of small rooms.

Just close to being removed. Ok.

Yes... Infact I found so many running Hell Mephisto that I stupped picking them up alltogether. My brother still has the 3-4 mule accounts filled with worthless junk like IK Mauls that we found.

So you alone, or in a Lanning party made it to Hell without any help? No rushing, frees to allow you to rush, etc. If I remember correctly, Hell is not exactly the easiest place to do Mephisto runs. I remember my brother did it easily being level 80 and having half is gear transfered from other characters or traded with various other players or accepted freebies.

When I play Diablo 2 offline (single player or with a friend on LAN), you start dying quickly on Nightmare. It gets serious. We never made hell, I'd imagine it would be very difficult. We didnt have any battlenet bulls*** to rush us, gives frees, trade with or anything. We found our own items (drops, shops, gamble, quests) which were worthy of replacing our old ones and thats how we progressed. Thats why I hate online only and the AH and how its required to actually beat the game, but thats not my point here anyway.

A lot of them are only in your opinion poor.

I am stating things that Diablo 3 changed of Diablo 2. These changes were made with little reason, and have failed to improve upon anything the old systems as stated in my original post, with the exception of mear mechanics or balance. They generally sacrificied fun for balance. This point won't stand for the AH because that topic is sitting on the fence in terms of like-ability. E.g. Making mercs useless to fix them using an overpowered item, ultimately making them a boring addition to the game when they have the potential to be so much more. I'd also like to mention that nearly all arguements represent the voice of many others. I wouldn't be surprised if they were the majority, considering the same topics smothered the Diablo 3 forums with most people areeging on the cases and those who opposed received negative comments. A great Diablo 1-2 fanbase was lost with the creation of Diablo 3.

Why do people think that making stuff dark and dull is good... If anything it would annoy people as they want to see to play the game and not have to turn up their brightness/contrast. I remember in Diablo II that I had problems resolving monsters because the game was so dark, it forced me to turn up my brightness which then made overworld areas too bright.

I never had a problem with the outside world being too bright, nor dungeons being too dark. Additionally, as you stated in your older posts, I never had problems with green (poisoned) units appearing behind walls, or any display problems for that matter.

 

[Edhel-dur]

This topic has derailed.

Arguments are all over the place.

 

[Dr Super Good]

So you alone, or in a Lanning party made it to Hell without any help? No rushing, frees to allow you to rush, etc. If I remember correctly, Hell is not exactly the easiest place to do Mephisto runs. I remember my brother did it easily being level 80 and having half is gear transfered from other characters or traded with various other players or accepted freebies.

I played with my brother in a team on BattleNet in various ladder sessions. Seeing how Diablo II was a coop game I think this fits your requirements. Only gear we used was self-found (until much later after we did Hell). Usually went complimenting elemental sorcesses to handle the immunes. Other times I went summon necromancer as those can inch through hell without much gear thanks to summons.

I do admit we did some power leveling at times in public games but these were often run by us and we were building up levels to progress. Once we got to Normal Baal we stayed and leveled until we could get to NM Baal before progressing giving us a clear level advantage for the next difficulty. As this was usually early on during ladder sessions we often ended up having to walk to places (if our teleport was not capable of getting us there). Thanks to Insight polearm on merc we had unlimited mana so teleporting was not too difficult. Hardest to get was the spirit shields which required time farming Hell mode to find the base 4 Socket Monarch shield. Luckilly we could use the socket quest to turn any old Monarch into a 4 socket Monarch thus all we really needed was a White or Superiour White Monarch (not too hard to find).

Obviously you may not have access to Spirit as it is a Ladder only runeword however I failed to see a point to play outside of ladder.

you start dying quickly on Nightmare.

Yes but those deaths are almost meaningless seeing how 1-2 pieces of the right gear are enough gold to res your merc and that you only stop gaining experience fast towards 90.

We never made hell, I'd imagine it would be very difficult.

Yes it is if you do not use the right builds and farm at the right spots.

Good builds for coop
Sorceress single elemental (do not stack, choose different elements). This is almost vital for the easy access to teleport allowing you to farm.
Necromancer General build (on LAN use all the summons you can, online you need to drop mages as those will cause the server to disconnect you).
Palidan Smiter (good damage against bosses).
Amazon Javlin build (insane lightning damage).
Trap Assassin (insane lighting damage, corpse explosion and traps can shoot stuff offscreen)

Builds NOT to use
Anything Barbarian. Although they do help boost drops and their crys help survival, they deal near no damage to anything so are not useful in small groups.
Anything based on weapon damage. You will not be getting HRs any time soon (if ever) so anything weapon based will be ineffectual.
Anything Druid, other classes are better unless you have huge numbers of players.
Kicker Assassin, smiter is more effective for less effort.

considering the same topics smothered the Diablo 3 forums with most people areeging on the cases and those who opposed received negative comments.

Actually that is the stupid minority who like to troll the forums. Everyone who liked the game would not bother informing others they liked it since they like it so much they are playing it. Look at SC2 melee ones and you will see the same kind of trolling (atleast in early SC2 days) where people say Blizzard sucks with their game balance and that X unit is rigged. Too bad SC2 is a competitive game with much praise.

I never had a problem with the outside world being too bright, nor dungeons being too dark. Additionally, as you stated in your older posts, I never had problems with green (poisoned) units appearing behind walls, or any display problems for that matter.

You were either using a piece of hardware from early 2000 or DirectDraw (which made a dated game look more dated).

Diablo II was written for Voodoo Graphic cards and apparently looked amazing on them. As you know these no longer exist (thus why the glide options is shaded out on all modern computers). Although elmulation attempts have been made, these do not function well.

Diablo II is the only game I know that somehow performs like total garbage on our modern futuristic systems... Yes, using Direct3D mode on many Nvidia based systems causes Diablo II to run as low as 5 FPS in intensive situations. No one knows what causes this bug but it started as early as 2005.

 

[Radicool]

This topic has derailed.

Arguments are all over the place.

I don't think so? I am arguing that the game is not fun. Doctor is arguing the opposite. We have reference to every single point in the original post. In my post before yours, I talk about Random Map Generation and Atmosphere.

I also talk about technical difficulties and ease of finding overly powerful items which relates to mercs soloing bosses. Ultimately, we are finding points for and against Diablo 3. I think that relates to "Why Diablo 3 was a Letdown". I think were on topic. Although, as you said, I think the arguements are all over the place. Luckily we quote eachother so we know what were arguing against.

I played with my brother in a team on BattleNet in various ladder sessions. Seeing how Diablo II was a coop game I think this fits your requirements. Only gear we used was self-found (until much later after we did Hell). Usually went complimenting elemental sorcesses to handle the immunes. Other times I went summon necromancer as those can inch through hell without much gear thanks to summons

Well done then.

You were either using a piece of hardware from early 2000 or DirectDraw (which made a dated game look more dated).

Diablo II was written for Voodoo Graphic cards and apparently looked amazing on them. As you know these no longer exist (thus why the glide options is shaded out on all modern computers). Although elmulation attempts have been made, these do not function well.

Diablo II is the only game I know that somehow performs like total garbage on our modern futuristic systems... Yes, using Direct3D mode on many Nvidia based systems causes Diablo II to run as low as 5 FPS in intensive situations. No one knows what causes this bug but it started as early as 2005.

I'm not very savvy when it comes to this kind of stuff. I dont know how graphic engines work and different kinds of direct X or Direct3D work. However, to this day, I still have not had a problem with my Diablo 3. I don't receive errors, display problems, slow FPS or anything. It looks the same as when I got it about 8-10 years ago or something (when Diablo 2 non expansion was out). I have played the game on very old computers with ancient graphic cards, and I have also played it on my new laptop, having a 2012 model graphic card from Nvidia.

Diablo II was written for Voodoo Graphic cards and apparently looked amazing on them. As you know these no longer exist (thus why the glide options is shaded out on all modern computers).

Looks the same now as back then.

Diablo II is the only game I know that somehow performs like total garbage on our modern futuristic systems...

No problem playing on my new laptop, or my dad's new laptop. Mine being Nvidia, dad's being a Radeon. Both 2011 or 2012 models.

 

[Dr Super Good]

No problem playing on my new laptop, or my dad's new laptop. Mine being Nvidia, dad's being a Radeon. Both 2011 or 2012 models.

Some Nvidia cards handled it fine, others did not. Also driver updates could start or stop the problem. Usually hose that handled it fine suffered from the funny graphic glitches I mentioned such as everything "poison enhanced" glowing green.

Well done then.

I do admit that I have played probably 20-30 characters to level 80. After doing that it becomes prety much second nature how to progress and what is viable. The game is certainly a lot easier with two people as you can ignore immunes for the most part due to the two elements of damage.

Another thing I noticed was you needed to play on the correct geographic region in respect to where you live as otherwise you will be unable to teleport efficiently once your sorcress reaches a high FCR. This exhibits itself in the form of teleport bouncing where every second teleport sends you back a bit due to teleport order lag (the result of high ping with their servers). Annoyed me so much (as it meant all progress on that server was for nothing).

 

[Edhel-dur]

I don't think so? I am arguing that the game is not fun. Doctor is arguing the opposite. We have reference to every single point in the original post. In my post before yours, I talk about Random Map Generation and Atmosphere.

I also talk about technical difficulties and ease of finding overly powerful items which relates to mercs soloing bosses. Ultimately, we are finding points for and against Diablo 3. I think that relates to "Why Diablo 3 was a Letdown". I think were on topic. Although, as you said, I think the arguements are all over the place. Luckily we quote eachother so we know what were arguing against.

I didn't say you were offtopic, but it is all over the place, as in messy.

Also many points you guys bring aren't legitimate, because discussion kinda turned from "D3 sucks" to "D2 sucks". Personally I do not think you can compare the games, because one is old, and the other is new. Sure the old game has it's flaws, and is not perfect, but that's normal, because it did some things good and it furthered the genre. What should have had happened with D3, is they should have took D2 and improved upon it and not change it.

What you and DSG are doing now, is simply pointing strengths and weaknesses of D2, which should be irrelevant because it's an old game, it's the foundation for the new games. It's like saying an old car today is bad because it doesn't go past 50 miles (70 kilometers) an hour. Well ofc it doesn't, it's old! It's a stepping stone.

The issue at hand isn't that D2 is a broken game but fun, we kinda agreed on that, the issue at hand is that D3 isn't fun, for a lot of veterans.

The issue is that D3 could have been a better Diablo game, not a clone of WoW.

I have a question for DSG, in D3, what's there to explore? I mean sure, you reach lv 60, you finish the game on Inferno. But besides doing the map dungeon where you fight two bosses in order to get the ingredients for the Hell-fire Ring, and farming Paragol Lvls and golds... what's there to do? Me, myself, as a player... what can I hope to do? Not necessarily succeed but hope.

 

[Dr Super Good]

I have a question for DSG, in D3, what's there to explore? I mean sure, you reach lv 60, you finish the game on Inferno. But besides doing the map dungeon where you fight two bosses in order to get the ingredients for the Hell-fire Ring, and farming Paragol Lvls and golds... what's there to do? Me, myself, as a player... what can I hope to do? Not necessarily succeed but hope.

The same as Diablo II but slightly easier... Reach maximum level, get lots of loot and become rich.

 

[Radicool]

The same as Diablo II but slightly easier... Reach maximum level, get lots of loot and become rich.

You forgot to mention something. The drive to get better loot and become stronger is to battle others in PVP. Unfortunatley there really is no drive in Diablo 3 considering it still lacks PVP. A substitue is coming for the battle style of PVP because blizzard's words were something along the lines of "After a few hours of playing it, it got boring". So, they spent so long into a failure. Took them long enough to figure that out too.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The drive to get better loot and become stronger is to battle others in PVP.

Nope, I never had that drive. If anything I hated all the noobs who hostiled me for no reason.

 

[Radicool]

Nope, I never had that drive. If anything I hated all the noobs who hostiled me for no reason.

Well, I never liked PVP either. However, I am well aware that PVP was something special for a whole lot of people out there. Thats why I mentioned it. Just because it doesn't affect you, doesn't mean the point is invalid.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Well, I never liked PVP either. However, I am well aware that PVP was something special for a whole lot of people out there. Thats why I mentioned it. Just because it doesn't affect you, doesn't mean the point is invalid.

Said "The drive" when you are now agreeing it is only "A drive".

All this said, the one part I do miss about Diablo II was the apparent complexity it had. Even when in reality it was very simplistic it originally fills one with that sense of mystery and awe as you read skills, look up items and gain levels. Diablo III never had that, it entered the "pro" level of play much faster than Diablo II allowed as there were much fewer wrong choices one could make. However Diablo II ended up feeling the same after your second ladder season.

 

[Edhel-dur]

All this said, the one part I do miss about Diablo II was the apparent complexity it had. Even when in reality it was very simplistic it originally fills one with that sense of mystery and awe as you read skills, look up items and gain levels. Diablo III never had that, it entered the "pro" level of play much faster than Diablo II allowed as there were much fewer wrong choices one could make. However Diablo II ended up feeling the same after your second ladder season.

That was great and a big part of what made the game great, and it should have stayed.

 

[Radicool]

Said "The drive" when you are now agreeing it is only "A drive".

Please dont get so analytical on my words...lol. You know what I mean.

All this said, the one part I do miss about Diablo II was the apparent complexity it had. Even when in reality it was very simplistic it originally fills one with that sense of mystery and awe as you read skills, look up items and gain levels. Diablo III never had that, it entered the "pro" level of play much faster than Diablo II allowed as there were much fewer wrong choices one could make. However Diablo II ended up feeling the same after your second ladder season.

Yes Diablo 3 doesn't have that feeling. Since there are no stat points, skill points, choice of picking skills, there is no difficulty in making decisions. Its a no brainer that items which higher armor or dps and stats is better than the old. There is no decision making technicallities, making it very simplistic as if Blizzard is holding your hand through the game. Very annoying.

This point also branches into things such a lack of customization, etc which was pointed out in OP.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Few games have that feeling now though. It was the same feeling you got when playing Age of Empires.

Anyway new patch preview is out. They have some changes that you might like.

 

[Edhel-dur]

Yeah they enhance the current Diablo 3.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The crafted items are interesting, if they are cheap it might be a good way to suplement my gear.

The new gems sound awesome but the stupidly high cost means that it is well beyond what I can afford.

 

[Edhel-dur]

Gold costs, yeah, just more 'incentives' to play and... gold sink mechanic.

They really treat D3 like an MMO.

 

[Grey Nightmare]

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii

User ratings don't really say much for it either.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The problem is the people who like the game are so busy playing it that they do not rate it positivly. The only people who write all the bad reviews are the small minority who hate it with a passion (yet still play it in some cases?!).

 

[Edhel-dur]

I disagree. When people asked me why I liked WoW and not Lineage 2, or why I liked LoL and not DotA 2, I had more to say than L2/DotA2 have this so bad. I can say WoW/LoL has this and they are so good because of that.

While with D3 I haven't heard anyone yet say "D3 has runes, they are so good". I mean really, D3 has nothing interesting, nothing which makes it cool. I can tell why SC2 is a superior RTS, but I can't say why D3 would be a superior ARPG.

DSG you play this game for a long time, why is D3 cool, what's so good about it? And don't start your sentence with "well compared to D2...", there is no D2. Describe why D3 is so good.

 

[Dr Super Good]

For the first playthrough of every class you have the awesome experience of trying out all the skills. Although in the end only a few are truely rigged, at the start they are all about as equally useful.

The character designs also offer a lot as far as choice goes.
Want to use magic? Wizard
Want to shoot stuff? Demon Hunter
Want to be slightly evil? Witch Doctor
Like martial arts? Monk.
Need to kill stuff with melee weapons? Barbarian

After you have done the core part of the game (a playthrough with every class) you need to define personal goals. If you have none, then now is the time to stop playing.

A personal goal could be gold in stash, time played, paragon level 100s, hardcore, achievements or anything that meets your fancies. In the end this is the only reason players play any game for extended periods of time.

 

[Edhel-dur]

I'm not attacking D3 now, and I'm not ironic, but I will keep your format, apply it on Torchlight 2 and extend it.

For the first playthrough of every class you have the awesome experience of trying out all the skills. Using the in-game system or even a mod, you can actually try all the skills and decide how useful to you they are, for your build.

The character designs also offer a lot as far as choice goes.
Want to use magic? Embermage, Berzerker, Outlander
Want to shoot stuff? Outlander, Engineer
Want to use summons? Outlander or Engineer
Need to kill stuff with melee weapons? Engineer, Berzerker, Outlander.

Each playthrough is unexpected, as the randomization degree of both outdoors and dungeons is extensive, that in 70% of the content you can't ever guess how big the area will be, where the interest points are located, or the exit towards the next year.

Feel the need of some help for your character? You have a pet which levels with you, and you can assign certain spells to him and feed him food to increase his effectiveness. You want to blaze through content alone? Put the pet on passive stance.

Bags full? Don't want to return to town and continue killing? Transfer all your items to your pet and send him to town to sell and buy stuff for you!

Want to take a break from killing everything? You can fish at certain places on the map, which reward you with fish which empower your pet, or even gems and items.

After you have done the core part of the game (a playthrough with every class) you need to define personal goals. If you have none, then now is the time to stop playing...

OR

...you can continue doing dungeons and explore your character up to lv 100 and 132 skill points through the Mapworks, or restarting the campaign in NG+.

If you started on Normal, you can switch to Veteran on Elite for a more suitable challenge.

Of course you can also start a Hardcore character, and play Offline Mode.

Furthermore, if you really enjoy playing the game, you can start a new character, even of the same class, but take a different role. Of course for the lazy, there is a mod which allows you to respecc skill points at will.

So you have done all this and you want other reasons to enjoy playing the game? Well you can install Synergies Mod, which currently is the only mod which acts as an expansion. It provides extra levels, more dungeons, a new class, however it's still in development, but the WIP is playable.

Which brings me to the next point, modability. Currently there are enough mods created to enhance your experience, either through re-texturing, changing the UI, and many others. Play the game you want to play. I will admit there are some cons, there is no ladder because of this. Someone can just mod a super weapon and that itself ruins the ladder experience.

However, you want to change the atmosphere of the game, be a little more dark, want mobs to aggro you from bigger distances? One answer, Mods.



And I will leave here a small personal experience. There are these Phase Challenges. You kill a spectral wolf, a portal spawns which takes you to an arena where you have to complete a challenge. I've done Act1 at least 10 times. The first 9 times or so it was a variation between closing spider entrances, defending totems until they rise and kill monsters fast enough in order for the challenge to be completed (DPS race basically). On my 10th time I was placed in a maze I never seen before. I was amazed, that after so many times of doing Act1, I've found content I never saw. And the maze, I was walking on water, and stepping stones would come out of the water in front of me, and sunk back down behind me... and when I met a dead end... rocks would simply stop rising.

P.S.: There are Steam achievements too.

 

[Dr Super Good]

As of July 2012, more than 10 million people have played the game.[75] Diablo III remains the fastest selling PC game to date, and also one of the best-selling PC video games.

In April 2012, Torchlight II became available for pre-purchase through Steam, those who pre-purchased received the original Torchlight free.[20] On August 30, 2012, company president Travis Baldree announced on the official forums for Runic Games that the game was to be released on September 20, 2012.[2] The game sold over 1 million copies in 2012.[21]

As you can see, the customer base of Diablo III is an order of magnitude larger than that of Torchlight II.

Many of the practices Torchlight II only are viable in single player designed games (like Diablo II was). If you want a massieve interactive community you need to forgo mods and singleplayer. Mods force fragmentation since each mod would have to be separate from each other. Singleplayer allows pirate custom servers which also increase fragmentation and discourage people from buying the game.

Of course you can also start a Hardcore character, and play Offline Mode.

Self-defeating since death cannot be permanent in single player (you just restore the save files back to a previous state). You can also exit bad situations at will since you control when the game progresses state. This makes hardcore in Torchlight II a feature only for purists since mostly it will act exactly like softcore except softcore is more convenient. Playing hardcore earns you no credibility since you could have cheated any progress in it.

Furthermore, if you really enjoy playing the game, you can start a new character, even of the same class, but take a different role. Of course for the lazy, there is a mod which allows you to respecc skill points at will.

The fact such a mod was made shows how important such features are in game design. Why it was not included in the main game is a big question.

Bags full? Don't want to return to town and continue killing? Transfer all your items to your pet and send him to town to sell and buy stuff for you!

Except in Diablo III we hit 'T' and in 5 seconds are in town and can do all that stuff in person. A pointless feature in Torchlight II?

Feel the need of some help for your character? You have a pet which levels with you, and you can assign certain spells to him and feed him food to increase his effectiveness. You want to blaze through content alone? Put the pet on passive stance.

Where as in Diablo III if you need help you can join a public game and have a fully interactive real player accompany you. Some of the time they are able to communicate even. Better yet, they can even start conversations with you about stuff outside Diablo III. Their AI can be a bit broken at times but for the most part it is far better than any other AI in such a game. I would like to see those shallow Torchlight II pets do that...

 

[Edhel-dur]

As you can see, the customer base of Diablo III is an order of magnitude larger than that of Torchlight II.

That's just marketing. Blizzard and Diablo made it happen. And quantity has no relation to quality.

Many of the practices Torchlight II only are viable in single player designed games (like Diablo II was). If you want a massieve interactive community you need to forgo mods and singleplayer. Mods force fragmentation since each mod would have to be separate from each other. Singleplayer allows pirate custom servers which also increase fragmentation and discourage people from buying the game.

Or closed multiplayer. It's still an ARPG. it's just not an MMO. You are playing a game, and you are playing it with friends, or even strangers, and you can enhance it. As for piracy, yeah it's a risk the company is taking, but that doesn't make the game less of a game. But than again it's 15$-20$ vs 60$.

Self-defeating since death cannot be permanent in single player (you just restore the save files back to a previous state). You can also exit bad situations at will since you control when the game progresses state. This makes hardcore in Torchlight II a feature only for purists since mostly it will act exactly like softcore except softcore is more convenient. Playing hardcore earns you no credibility since you could have cheated any progress in it.

Or you could play Hardcore and not do that, and the only person who needs to know that is you.

The fact such a mod was made shows how important such features are in game design. Why it was not included in the main game is a big question

You can respecc just not fully. People want it because it's hip, it's new. But most importantly it's a choice you make as a player. You can choose how you want to play the game.

Except in Diablo III we hit 'T' and in 5 seconds are in town and can do all that stuff in person. A pointless feature in Torchlight II?

We can hit 'T' and do that too. But we rather send the pet to sell, and we just continue to hack through monsters.

Where as in Diablo III if you need help you can join a public game and have a fully interactive real player accompany you. Some of the time they are able to communicate even. Better yet, they can even start conversations with you about stuff outside Diablo III. Their AI can be a bit broken at times but for the most part it is far better than any other AI in such a game. I would like to see those shallow Torchlight II pets do that...

DSG you are talking about real humans. Don't worry, you find them in TL2 too. But really the pets are awesome and actually helpful in all stages of the game. And you can use them in multiplayer too.

---------------

Bottom line, there is no evidence that D3 design is fun. Or it's fun in the sense of ego/e-peen boosting, showing off, facebook generations. Because it's fun to show you are great at a game, everyone should know it. But it's not fun in the sense that it isn't captivating by itself. Strip down all the ego parts about D3, and it's just a boring and bland game, an MMO with an ARPG twist.

D3 and TL2 do share something tho, no real endgame. But while D3 came out with no end game options and Blizz has been releasing them over time... TL2 did had two endgame scenarios on release, and through modding, more is added. If DotA taught anything, and even Wc3, and the Sims, is that modding isn't necessarily sub-par to official game development.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Or you could play Hardcore and not do that, and the only person who needs to know that is you.

Where as Diablo III lets you use your profile as evidence of your hardcore playing capabilities.

You are playing a game, and you are playing it with friends, or even strangers, and you can enhance it.

Except it fragments the community and nothing stops cheating.

DSG you are talking about real humans. Don't worry, you find them in TL2 too. But really the pets are awesome and actually helpful in all stages of the game. And you can use them in multiplayer too.

But in Diablo III you are garunteed other players that are not cheating. There are also more players on average.

 

[Edhel-dur]

Where as Diablo III lets you use your profile as evidence of your hardcore playing capabilities.

Well yeah. this is a matter of perception I guess. You see for me it doesn't matter what other people think, in terms of gaming I mean. If I managed to beat the game on Hardcore, go me. If I did but I also cheated, I think I'd know that. At worst I am fooling everyone that I beat the game on Hardcore. Last time I checked, beating a game on HC didn't bring you a hot girl-friend, a Porsche, or anything... except rights to brag. Those for me mean nothing. I finished the game on HC and I am legit.. what does that tell about me and why should I care?

Except it fragments the community and nothing stops cheating.

But in Diablo III you are guaranteed other players that are not cheating. There are also more players on average.

Well yeah but there is no ladder. Okay so Online only prevents cheating. Point for D3. Community is fragmented, true. Indeed TL2 isn't the social experience. And the community is smaller. But... strip down the always Online factor, and no-cheaters factor (which make people secure that they are politically correct and can show off w/e), and D3 is just a dull game mechanics wise.

 

[rulerofiron99]

DSG, casuals such as myself and millions of others don't really care for ladders and the possibility of hackers. I've never played TL2 online, nor do I intend to. It's an amazing game to LAN with friends (up to 6 players), and among friends I have not encountered anyone hacking, and no one in my group would do it because it makes the game lame. We play hardcore, and stick by it.

On the other hand, I won't even touch D3 because it's online only, and the lag is an issue for me. I've played the demo, and there was a fair amount of lag. Probably due to my distance from the server. But even if I was next to the server, the thought of losing a hardcore character to internet connectivity frightens me. The link to the server has many points of disconnection.

 

[The_wand_mirror]

A thing I really like about an ARPG being mandatory online is that the items cannot be cheated in when the drops are regulated by the server. Also "singleplayer" charachters are now directly compatible with multiplayer. I remember being so annoyed with D2's system of not being to use my singleplayer char in multiplayer, and i also remember being annoyed with these stupid cheaters and bots. Diablo 3's philosophy has eliminated alot of problems that I had with the prequal but at a closer look they have removed to many core elements from the main game.

Bottomline is this, in Diablo 2 you defeated hordes of creatures. Loot their stuff. Check items, socket them, purchase and sell, level up add attributes and pick abilities from the skill tree and more.

In diablo 3 you just progress all the time, abilities are unlocked automatically there is almost no inventory management but changing your gear and you cannot customize your attributes anymore. Where diablo 2 felt to versatile diablo 3 feels so streamlined, but it was streamlined to death. In you level up in diablo 2 (or in Path of Exile) you have actually have some stuff to click on and items to look into.

We can offcourse keep this simple and just say the magic word - Auction House. It is a money grab, i understand blizzard is a company that has employees but they make so much fucking money i cannot believe they could not have let it out. It completely wrecks everything, you can't resist going to the AH when you want to progress and if you do then you are just wasting your time because wouldn't you rather browse some stuff for 20 minutes instead of grinding for 20 hours to get some good gear for the next act or difficulty. And it's also way to easy to get yellows, yellows dont mean shit anymore thanks to the AH. It was a fun game, i can't deny that. But it could have been so much better. (Oh and btw is PvP not there yet? Whatever.... it's like duke nukem forever)

 

[Dr Super Good]

(Oh and btw is PvP not there yet? Whatever.... it's like duke nukem forever)

PvP is there... Just only on the PTR at the moment. Hopefully the PTR will close soon and we will get it in the main game.

But it could have been so much better.

Or so much worse...

I find Diablo III a lot less furstrating than Diablo II. I can gear my character up without relying on good drops than never happen (using the gold I find, I will never use RMAH). There are no ninja-looters taking all the items you earned because you were generous enough to power level them. Selling stuff does not involve advertising against hundreds of other people. Best of all they removed all the useless and stupid mechanics such as attributes (aka mouse button wearers), teleport (aka skip half the content because it sucked) and impossibly rare items (aka Ber and all other high runes).

 

[Radicool]

I just added more information regarding Diablo 3's music to the original post.

Or so much worse...

I don't understand this statement. Its ultimately your opinion that you disliked D2's dueling system. I cannot say too much since I never cared for it. I played for PVM only. However it would make sense to allow a D2 style PVP system to exist, then have the areana style system for the competitive. Also, this could have a ranking system. Wow I'm a genious, I solved the mystery. That allows casual players to enjoy themselves, and the people who wanted a ranking system would also get what they want, without making Diablo 3 feeling too "competitive" as Blizzard clearly stated in their videos, posts, etc (Blizzard design choice for not including competitive PVP was something like it'll ruin the game for casual players, since not everybody likes competitive).

DSG, casuals such as myself and millions of others don't really care for ladders and the possibility of hackers.

This reflects myself. A big complaint a lot of people have is bots, duping, etc. This did not apply to me and a lot of people. Doctor appears to be more interested in better functionality, mechanics, etc than most. These sort of aspects of Diablo are more important for you. That makes sense, your arguement clearly represents your personality. I say that because your an intelligent person, at least in programming and stuff. Your a logical thinker from what I've gathered from your personal interests in off topic forums and your attitude to help others, the list goes on and on(no I dont spy you, I just take notice of the people around me, lol).

But you forget where the majority lies Doctor. To be frank, a view of yours is the view of the minority. Less people are interested in these things and simply want a fun game. I belelive there are more casual players than competitive. I beleive there are more people who don't calculate damages, stratergies and builds, than people that do. I am not saying your opinion does not count, I am open to it in fact and agree. I just thought I'd point this out because your arguements arn't always the important ones.

Anyways, this is just my view. Don't be offended, I don't actually know you or any1 else here as well as I made this post out to be. Curious to see replies

 

[Dr Super Good]

However it would make sense to allow a D2 style PVP system to exist, then have the areana style system for the competitive.

The Diablo II system ruined hardcore. There are thousands of threads where people complain some random "noob" joined their game and killed them for no reason. I believe MineCraft has since coined the phrase as a "Griefer", a person who uses effort just to ruin the fun of others in a bid to amuse himself.

This is the main reason I never played Hardcore in Diablo II. I have really enjoyed Hardcore in Diablo III.

 

[Radicool]

"Griefer", a person who uses effort just to ruin the fun of others in a bid to amuse himself.

The human race is a bitc* isn't it This quality in a person reminds me of the word "sadist". Its ultimately a sad story. I agree with you. There needs to be measures to stop people like this.

The Diablo II system ruined hardcore. There are thousands of threads where people complain some random "noob" joined their game and killed them for no reason. I believe MineCraft has since coined the phrase as a "Griefer", a person who uses effort just to ruin the fun of others in a bid to amuse himself.

This is the main reason I never played Hardcore in Diablo II. I have really enjoyed Hardcore in Diablo III.

The fix to this problem would be just too simple to implement in Diablo 3. Hardcore characters can not lose their characters if killed my another player, unless they concented it was ok. They could tick the only ones they concented to in an alliance menu (like D2's alliance menu). Theres no way you'd beable to be killed that way without knowing it. It was not neccicary to remove the free world stlye of PVP.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The fix to this problem would be just too simple to implement in Diablo 3. Hardcore characters can not lose their characters if killed my another player, unless they concented it was ok. They could tick the only ones they concented to in an alliance menu (like D2's alliance menu). Theres no way you'd beable to be killed that way without knowing it.

Opens up abuse though. You do not kill them but wound them enough so that monsters kill them. People go through all kinds of troubles just to ruin games for others sadly.

Their current arena system solves all this.

 

[Radicool]

Opens up abuse though. You do not kill them but wound them enough so that monsters kill them. People go through all kinds of troubles just to ruin games for others sadly.

Their current arena system solves all this.

I don't understand. Most duels are carried out in normal mode, Act 1. Monsters are not a problem. Even so, the players dont wander that far from town, so they don't encounter many monsters.

You do not kill them but wound them enough so that monsters kill them

Remember, nobody can hurt you unless you accepted the dual invitation (or whatever you call it). If they want to use monsters to their advantage, good on them. Thats part of dueling in the wilderness. Its a risk you accept by dueling in the wilderness. There are players, and there are monsters. Not to forget the little influence monsters have anyway.

You are thinking black and white. I am thinking. Why not have both? And....why not Doctor? There can be an areana for those who want a competitive and/or monster free environment, and there is the wilderness. If people want a more casual dueling area with a new enviornment. But I still dont see how anybody can troll people in the wilderness.

• Nobody can attack you unless both players have accepted that they will be fought by that player.

• If you are hardcore, you do not lose your character unless you also consented to that (I dont know. Maybe your really serious, lol. Or somebody put bets down, with people's characters on the line).

• Monsters are not a problem. I really don't understand how they can be used to grief people. They have little effect, and if somebody manages to utilize them in a duel, I only see that as "well played". Monsters are part of the wilderness, it only makes sense if the players work around, or with the monsters in their dueling. Lets not forget, the abundance of these monsters is low, as well as their weak hp/dmg.

Rather than eliminate the wilderness stlye of dueling, you can enhance it, and also implement an areana. Then you wont have masses of people complaining about PVP. Beleive me. Too many are disatisfied with the new PVP system.

Edit: I tohught I'd add this. Maybe people are forgetting what made the wilderness dueling interesting. The random map generation, random shrines, random trees in the way and monsters randomly scattered. These elements added unpredictable elements to the dueling process. Some may argue this interferes with the dueling and can also make the match uneven. Well, if you are more strict about your PVP, you should play the areana stlye PVP. The unpredictability of the wilderness makes it interesting, new and fresh. Its more free, and can be a different experience each time. Its a different kind of way to duel. It is not wrong.

Perhaps Diablo 3's direction with a lot of things was to ensure the game was more balanced and focused on mechanics, fair playing. But they forgot about fun... I watched an interview with Jay Wilson about removing stats and its related function it had in the game. He just said it wasn't a good customisation system becuase everyone built it the say way. Strength for their armor, energy to use skills, and the rest in vitality. It supports my argument that they are worried about functionality, mechanics, etc. But they forgot that allocating your own stats was a fun experience and offered you to build your character in different ways. Maybe their same focus on fair, mechanical PVP lead them to remove wilderness PVP and offer a controlled Areana system. Just maybe. But, its not fun anymore...

 

[Dr Super Good]

I don't understand. Most duels are carried out in normal mode, Act 1. Monsters are not a problem. Even so, the players dont wander that far from town, so they don't encounter many monsters.

Tell that to the people who are level 1-30 and leveling in normal mode... You do enough damage or debuff them so monsters kill them and ruin their fun. Also what would stop someone going to Inferno just to kill players?

Unless both players need to consent to PvP before any damage can be dealt (like the arena system we are getting) then there will always be abuse. I agree that such safety systems should not be required and do prevent some fun but they are required to stop some sick people ruining the fun of others.

Most duels in Diablo II were done in Hell mode for the extra difficulty. Not that it mattered much since the damage difference was not worth considering except for some very specifc builds and anti-builds. A Hammerdin teleporting on you and releasing a Blessed Hammer would deal as much damage in Normal as it did in Hell, which would usally 1 hit you (unless you had very high vitality or a damage restricting shield such as a morph where the second hit launached that second would kill you).

Remember, nobody can hurt you unless you accepted the dual invitation (or whatever you call it).

Which is what the arena system does now. You can only deal damage to players who enter the arena.

They are looking for more interesting types of PvP. Think Hero Line Wars but in Diablo III and that is just one posibility. Such PvP would still be competitive but a lot better suited to the game balance as it involves PvM damage.

 

[Radicool]

Tell that to the people who are level 1-30 and leveling in normal mode... You do enough damage or debuff them so monsters kill them and ruin their fun. Also what would stop someone going to Inferno just to kill players?

Monsters are a part of the wilderness. Its not trolling, monsters can be incorporated into the match. If your very worried about it, maybe you and your opponent can clear an area of monsters first before fighting, then begin. Its freedom. You can do anything you want. If you don't like monsters, use the areana system. So the people that do like the wilderness, can use the wilderness.

Unless both players need to consent to PvP before any damage can be dealt (like the arena system we are getting) then there will always be abuse.

Yes, nobody can just join in and kill you. He'll just have to watch, unless everybody agrees that the guy can attack them. Simple. I'm sure you'll argue that he can use spells to annoy or distract you. I mean, I don't see how far your going to argue this! Its not hard to keep ur game troll free. On blizzard's side and on your side. This odd occasion happens that somebody pisses you off. You either vote kick him, or leave. Blizzard could allow you to ban certain people from games you make or something so you dont see him again (making games and locking certain players out or something).

Which is what the arena system does now. You can only deal damage to players who enter the arena.

Its not right to say that the areana does what I want in a PVP system. They are not the same. I cannot argue every aspect of each side. But I want wilderness, not an areana. I know they are different. I can tell the difference between a rock and a tree. You cannot convince me that I will prefer one over the other. Remebering, I'm not saying the areana is bad, its just not what I want, or what everyone wants. Just implement both an areana and a wilderness. Everyone is happy.

They are looking for more interesting types of PvP. Think Hero Line Wars but in Diablo III and that is just one posibility. Such PvP would still be competitive but a lot better suited to the game balance as it involves PvM damage.

Sounds like fun. I hope they do. Reminds me of some Warcraft mini games on Diablo. Cool.