The Idealists Challenge #2 "Mythical Creatures"

[sentrywiz]

The complexity thing is limiting me though. Usually my heroes would require a trigger or two per ability.

Complexity doesn't equal complex abilities or a complex hero. It means the balance point between simple and complicated.

Take for example, the Frozen Apparition and Sven from dota. To me, they are on the opposite sides of complexity. Sven is a one trick pony, he comes, throws all his spells and the enemy team dies. Plain and simple. Khaldar or Khaldir or whatever the name was, is on another different level. His spells have multiple levels of complexity and he has a myriad of ways to kill you. He also has map presence with his spells, causing him to participate in almost any fight that arises anywhere.

Both of these heroes are okay. One is complex by design and has more depth offered per spell. The other is simple by design and offers various mechanics and items builds to compensate for the straight path of play.

You can do either of these, as long as you know WHAT you're making.
If you set to create complex spells you have more to optimize and tinker
with because the hero has to be balanced and it has to have synergy
between his mechanics. On the other hand if you set to create a simple
hero, do take into mind that simplicity is good only when you add lot of
depth and choices to the player. If you design a simple hero, make up
for his lack of complexity in spells with various choices a player has to
make like item builds, jungling potential, ganking, awareness... in other
words give them simple but unique or powerful abilities.

For abilities you should go with the following formula:

Complexity vs Power

Simple abilities should have the greatest power.
Complex abilities should have various effects, but
lose the power in the process. Balance is key here
because imagine if you make a spell that does 4
things at once and it deals more damage than any
other ability and has NO DRAWBACK. This will clearly
score no points in balance and the hero score will be
low because the hero will be broken on design.

EDIT:

Can this hero be created into the chosen map? If yes, what is the complexity required for a playable state? Approximately how long would an average creator need to create this hero?

Oh. Well that too is tied to the design. The more complexity you put into a hero,
the more skill is required from the creator to put that hero into a map. You should
balance it, so that it doesn't go out of control.

Basically if it cannot be done in GUI, you did a poor job and your hero is clearly in
some way broken.

 

[Vinz]

You are correct. I was talking about this though:

Can this hero be created into the chosen map? If yes, what is the complexity required for a playable state? Approximately how long would an average creator need to create this hero?

 

[sentrywiz]

Am I free to comment on the WIPs so far, even if I'm judge?
This obviously won't be a rating in any form, but just some ideas for possible changes, pointing out flaws.

EDIT: Also are you ok with me also posting a hero idea to the theme? Obviously I would post it after the poll starts so nobody will be influenced by it? Or do you think this will effect my raitings as I will compare the entries to mine?

They are WIP's. They may change 300% tomorrow and if people are influenced to follow a certain WIP that someone else made, then let them. Competition breeds innovation.

I asked that too, and the answer was no.

Originally Posted by host
I would have to say no to giving feedback before the end date. Especially as a judge. Its same as helping them.

I explained that badly. Chaosy asked that fairly early and I didn't realize that I'd be hurting the contest by saying them to be stiff. My fault. I will rephrase:

You should be helpful if you feel that they can do better.
Giving helpful pointers or sharing links is great.

Doing it for them isn't. If you in anyway feel that you are making their
idea come to life, this is where you should stop. Its their idea, not yours
and you shouldn't fix it the way YOU THINK it should look.

 

[Templassassin]

can i judge?
actually i'm not in the mood for joining as contestant...

EDIT : i'll join

 

[Moy]

Wow, nice entries. HAHA.

Okay, I'm back now.

 

[sentrywiz]

Wow, nice entries. HAHA.

Okay, I'm back now.

The contest is mine now. You can't have it. ITS MINE I TELL YOU, MINE!

Okay back to common sense... welcome back.

 

[Chaosy]

My precioussss..

Seriously though I will start to look a little on the WIPs' to get the general idea about the concept. Prepare yourselves

 

[Moy]

Chaosy is starting his chaos. OMG

 

[Heinvers]

My precioussss..

Somebody's pumped already >

 

[jopi]

So here are my thoughts on the WIPs that are posted until now:

Raza'rr the Blade Tempest

Ok not much to comment on yet. But I have to admit I like the quality of presentation and the model you chose is one of my favorite so I'm curious what this hero will look like in the end.

Jhesh'Nu, Watcher of the Underworld

• Fling: Pretty straight forward, not much to say about (that does not mean its bad!).
• Lacerate: Spamable ability, the damage does not seem to be that overpowered. I assume the 10% bonus from the Ult only add to the initial damage? (If there are some things that may be misunderstood, but you don't want tomake the spell description too long just add notes to the spell)
• Devourer: I like the synergy with Lacerate but it feels kinda strong to me. Maybe it's a good idea to take a look on Bloodseeker's Skillset.
• Form of the Underworld: While I get the purpose of this I'm sure you can easily do better than a 'simple' ability upgrade.

Malendis, Creature of Darkness

• Lore: Well written and even uses DotA lore, very nice!
• Wraith Form: Ok thats a hard one: this ability can do two things,
  
  First it phases the hero out, there are three abilities in DotA I can think of immediately: Puck's Phase Shift, Obsidian Destroyer's (Outworld Devourer in DOTA 2) Astral Imprisonment and Shadow Demon's Disruption. You should take a look at them, hopefully you get what I want to point out.
  
  Second it removes buffs/debuffs. Here also are things you should look at: Lifestealer's Rage, Tidehunter's Kraken Shell and Black King Bar.
• Spell Negation: I like this spell.
• Dark Isolation: First I thought it's OP but then I read the durations, fine ability I guess.
• Blades of Torment: Ok after making some calculations on this, please forgive me but I'm gonna have some fun with you:
  
  Riddle me this: My numbers grow per level, but my effect becomes weaker by this. Who am I? (unless it's intended to be like this)

Furnace, the Missing One

Ok I see some problems with this hero, as the Firelord model is already used by the hero Shadow Fiend.
Also, while I know it's an early WIP, you really should work on the lore. Who is Doomlord? There is a hero in DotA that is called Doom is it him?

• Flaming Shield: You should take a look at Ember Spirit's Skills. You should find out easily why.
• Doom Sight: Re-read this description: What has Furnace to do to create an explosion?
• Furnace Heat: Pretty straight forward.
• Doomlord: This again feels like a pretty generic transforming ultimate. I'm sure you can easily do better.

Diana, Master Huntress

I'm not commenting on this yet, as I feel that it's to early to do so.

For the skill sets I've mentioned please follow the link to the hero page of playdota.com (can be found in the opening post).

Also I want to say that I give A LOT about balance so please be sure to also compare your hero to heroes that are in DotA already and try to imagine if your hero is too strong or too weak.

 

[Moy]

The diana entry, is it a mythical creature? I don't understand.

 

[Dreadwing]

The diana entry, is it a mythical creature? I don't understand.

If she is a elf, maybe elf is a mythical creature. (right?...)

 

[Vinz]

Why are Diana and Malendis' BBcodes the same?

 

[Dreadwing]

Why are Diana and Malendis' BBcodes the same?

Well, maybe...
-the those creators are close friend and learn BB codes together, or
-The one of those creator taught BB codes to another creator, or
-They use same template

Anyways Nice entries

 

[Vinz]

Last time I tried guessing, I only succeeded with Thero. xD

I think I know though, too.

 

[Sclammerz]

I guess the authors of those two share the BB code together! Diana is a mythical girl that suddenly showed up. Anyway Goodluck guys.

Edit: dhika axe: You are not joining?

 

[sentrywiz]

The diana entry, is it a mythical creature? I don't understand.

I wondered about that as well. She seems human enough to not be considered a mythical creature. I guess you can easily tie loose ends in the lore, add that she is some sort of a goddess of hunting or an elf, half-elf, half-giant something to make her unique.

Last time I tried guessing, I only succeeded with Thero. xD

I think I know though, too.

Well until that information is in the open, you can all guess which is which all you want. Nothing wrong with assumptions. At least you add unnecessary drama into the mix

THINKING ABOUT ADDING ONE MORE RULE


As it stands right now, people are fighting to make their own template. However, that is clearly an advantage. In other words, if you know any graphic design software, you gain
a significant advantage. Not to mention that people can easily guess which template is which based on how much they know the people. For example, you can visit my profile and
see that in my resources all I have are maps. I have basically nothing of art to offer. Therefor you can somewhat accurately assume I don't have skills for art. But if we go through
each participant and look at their resources, you can get a whooping +50% accurate guess on which person made which template. The people with lot of art assets in their resource
page will have the best templates. And its not every other participant's fault that their interests lie somewhere else.

So I think to make it both fair and simple. Everyone will use the same template. To play the devil's advocate - you can say that about any part of the hero ideas.
I can easily get an advantage in the other departments because I understand game mechanics more and I make lots of maps with innovative or unique mechanics.
Someone else might be a great storyteller, so his or her lore will hook you and give you a cliffhanger.

Though, its impossible to filter out all of the people's talents so heroes will be measured against some perfect scale of talent. Each of us has their own pros and cons.
I guess that's why its a contest, to measure our own best versus other people's best and see which would catch most eye and attention.

What do you guys think?

Also, to spice my reply a bit with some offensive yo momma jokes:

My favorite jokes of the day

Your mom is so fat that she can't fit in this joke.
yo mama so fat that she dont need the internet she's already world wide
Yo momma so fat she sued xbox 360 for guessing her weight
Yo mama so fat when she sat on my iPad she made a flat screen tv!
Yo mama so fat when she sits on the beach she makes sandpaper
Yo momma so fat I could travel halfway across the world and still see her shadow

 

[Darko_Darkking]

I will join

 

[sentrywiz]

I will join

Okay, I'll add you to the list once you send me your first WIP

 

[Chaosy]

While it's a possibility to make a somewhat accurate guess on whose entry is being submitted, I doubt people will go as far as to stalk people in order for vote for them.

Unless the one who joins tells people which entry is theirs via PM there shouldn't be issues. (and that's against the rules btw)

 

[Moy]

Everyone will use the same template

No for me,

I will work on my entry later.

 

[Sclammerz]

Everyone will use the same template

I agree with ~Nightmare it is a NO! Anyway Good Luck!

 

[Dreadwing]

Edit: dhika axe: You are not joining?

I don't know... I am little bit busy.
But if I have a time I'll join...

 

[Vinz]

It kinda limits the presentation, but it has a point. I don't know...

 

[jopi]

Well, presentation is a point that is rated in the end, so if everybody has the same template this point should not be in the list anymore.

IMO while sentrywiz is right that people that have experience in BBcode or 2D art have somewhat of an advantage, it's their right to use it.
Also you have one month to make your entry, this is far more than enough to at least master BBcode (on a side not before the previous IC I had nearly no clue of BBcode, just saying...).
And I'd say it's not against the rules to ask anyone from the community for advice or help. Not like: 'Please someone do this for me' but 'I want to make this but I'm stuck at this point, can someone point out what I'm doing wrong?'

And on another side note I'm currently working on a template and gonna link it here soon. It will also include some important information about how to use it, as it's kinda tricky.

 

[Vinz]

If I get it right, though, asking for code help might reveal the user's hero.

 

[jopi]

Well THAT's a point XD....
Well you can ask someone trustwothy to ask for you or something like that.

Also an idea would be to just lower the points you can earn by 'Presentation', or to ask those who had the best points in 'Presentation' to make a template out of it for the next IC?

 

[Vinz]

Also an idea would be to just lower the points you can earn by 'Presentation', or to ask those who had the best points in 'Presentation' to make a template out of it for the next IC?

Both! :3

 

[Moy]

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/pastebin.php?id=7md7jm

Hero maker made 2 months ago. Requires .NET Framework 3.5, works on 64bit Win 7, not sure about 32bit and WIN XP. Thero Template. Follow the Instructions in the pastebin entry. FEEDBACK please.

 

[sentrywiz]

You both have a point. As @jopi said, asking the best template users to make a template for others is a good idea. Since their strength lies in art. Maybe we should look at this from another angle.

Presentation isn't about the template being pretty. Its also not about the effort the author put in it. That was their choice. Judges might look at the extra details the author put into their idea and rate it higher. This is where the problem is. Making the concept well presented has nothing to do with beauty. Its a subjective matter when we say this is pretty. But it is an objective matter if we look at something and understand it.u Our understanding is subjective, but the fact that we both understood what the author said is a shared quality. I think judges should go for that as the main point and leave the details aside.

 

[Vinz]

Wow, it's much better than Sanguine's Hero Maker.

Are there functionalities in 'save' though?

 

[sentrywiz]

Judges and Participants, take a look at the bonus hidden table under Judging for extra information regarding your entries.

 

[Sclammerz]

only one participant did not send his/her WIP.

Spoiler

And I know who he/she is

HAHA!

 

[Vinz]

Oh wait that means... er..

Nice info sentrywiz.

 

[sentrywiz]

only one participant did not send his/her WIP.

Spoiler

And I know who he/she is

HAHA!

BANNED FOR KNOWING TOO MUCH!

J/k. Keep it to yourself though.

 

[Moy]

Oh my god, sure thing I have not yet started fully.

 

[Vinz]

I have a problem finding a model.

For compatibility issues, is it okay if DotA already uses the model and ability names? Is it okay if I use the screen of a model not yet released?

 

[Chaosy]

tbh my brain is not good enough to translate it o-o

edit: either I translate it wrong or I think it's a stupid method to use. I don't know which..

 

[Sclammerz]

BANNED FOR KNOWING TOO MUCH!

J/k. Keep it to yourself though.

OMG. I was shocked about this. :3 Yes, Sire!

 

[jopi]

@Mythic: tbh it really should not be that hard to find a fitting model that isn't used in DotA.
If it's only for the matter of the WiP, sure its ok, but in the final entry if it's still the case you should try to maybe find something different or give a reason why it really HAS to be THIS model.

 

[sentrywiz]

@Mythic: tbh it really should not be that hard to find a fitting model that isn't used in DotA.
If it's only for the matter of the WiP, sure its ok, but in the final entry if it's still the case you should try to maybe find something different or give a reason why it really HAS to be THIS model.

This makes no sense in my mind.

Dota uses wacraft 3 models 90% of the time. These models aren't the property of Dota nor they relate to dota in any manner. Sure, seeing those models will trigger Dota players to relate to that model, but that's for dota players. This contest isn't about adding heroes to dota, its just to show a hero idea.

@Mythic don't let it bother if you use the same model as the one in dota. Your hero will probably never be heard of by the dota community nor will be added in the official dota release.
Yes, I just crushed your secret dreams, I know.

 

[Moy]

Well we can use it, to the official map of Idealists Challenge

 

[Vinz]

Yes, I just crushed your secret dreams, I know.

I've been there. I hated being there. Even LoL, I created concepts for it. But I just wasted time.
Thank you for the clarification, though.

This contest isn't about adding heroes to dota, its just to show a hero idea.

New question, is it okay not to use default icon borders when presenting abilities?

 

[sentrywiz]

I've been there. I hated being there. Even LoL, I created concepts for it. But I just wasted time.
Thank you for the clarification, though.


New question, is it okay not to use default icon borders when presenting abilities?

Well you got to understand their point of view too. If they took every concept seriously, they'd be making a new hero basically every 10 seconds because everyone has their own point of view, thus their own ideas. I cannot imagine turning on LoL just to pick one of 10 million possible heroes because every random guy on the internet had to think 50 heroes for LoL/Dota to make.

I don't understand this one. What are the default icon borders really?

 

[Vinz]

Well you got to understand their point of view too. If they took every concept seriously, they'd be making a new hero basically every 10 seconds because everyone has their own point of view, thus their own ideas. I cannot imagine turning on LoL just to pick one of 10 million possible heroes because every random guy on the internet had to think 50 heroes for LoL/Dota to make.

I know, which is why I wasted time I could've spent learning something else.

The default BTN borders, I wanna replace them.

 

[Sky Green]

May I join, if it isn't too late?

 

[jopi]

sure go ahead, just keep in mind to send sentrywiz your entry before the deadline (~15th of january, please check opening post for exact date)

 

[Moy]

PM your WIP or Final Entry to the HOST (sentrywiz)

Finished ideas for the abilities of my hero, now for balancing.

 

[GreeN!X]

Due to recent chat with Ralle
I was informed that I do not use the pastebin for hero entries.
WIP's and Finished Ideas will now be placed in hidden tags
in the main panel table, visible to everyone.

May I ask, why? Should we stop using pastebin for this purpose then?

 

[Moy]

What Ralle mean, these entries should not be pasted in the pastebin since it is only stored there temporarily. (Well, my pastes there which is in FOREVER were gone) That's why I also asked all of you to post your entries on the last contest not only for the reputation but also to preserve it. But, we should use the pastebin for testing out BBCODES of our hero ideas.

EDIT:
Should this be moved to the Mini-Contests Forum?