Beyond the Throne: Tides of Darkness

[davisSS3david]

Yes, it was a failed experiment. I'm in the process of removing them now, and I guess a plus is that whatever was causing the Seed AI to fatal error is no longer an issue.

Suggestions for additions to human and orc tech trees?

No it wasn't a failed experiment. The Seed is an interesting race but it was more like out of place. Like Linaze said I saw it too as a combo of Wc3 and Wc2 and to me it was HORDE vs ALLIANCE but then suddenly another race pops out of nowhere with a totally, totally, totally different gameplay which in my opinon just doesn't fit to the main concept of this map.

 

[Linaze]

As for additions to the two current races, I say think outside the box. Think less wc2 and more original.

 

[KILLER11454]

Gnomish Inventor Model

Hey Im Working On a Warcraft 2 mod myself but cant find a WCII model for the Gnomish Inventor... Can u plz tell me where u got that model?
or if u made it post it?

 

[Trilby]

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/map-development-202/orcs-humans-tides-darkness-32321/index30.html
The 6th post on that page.

 

[KILLER11454]

ty

PLZ OPEN JPG

 

[Delterius]

Perhaps you could stop incrementing the Alliance and Horde techtrees and focus on gameplay aspects. I know that this map is meant to be much like a melee but that doesn't mean you couldn't add some fun features.

 

[Kam]

I was thinking about a control point game mode.

Is that what you were thinking of?

 

[Delterius]

I was thinking of overall gameplay improvement, nothing specific. The techtrees feel good so far, perhaps the heroes could still evolve a bit more.

But unfortunately I can't test much, the map still crashes me even though I updated every driver. I suspect of bad ram and if this is the case, I simply can't do anything for a while.

 

[Trilby]

I think it was the Seed AI that was causing the crash?

 

[Kam]

Yes, and the Seed are gone in the next version.

It will be crash free, I promise.

 

[Trilby]

I hope so.
So, how's the next version coming along?

 

[Kam]

Very smoothly, I've implemented some new tech 3 units that have some nice abilities. The terrain is completely redone (see my last post): http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/terrain-board-267/post-worldtree-melee-map-157153/

Many dozens of minute balance changes including a drop in damage done by all units by about 25%, the intent being to make combat last long enough to use all the abilities. I'm working on some more abstract things at the moment, and of course the map is about 2000 kb smaller.

 

[Delterius]

Seems to be an awesome terrain, I hope you don't leave this one behind in future versions Kam.

So, I was wondering. Ever though of a Ranger and a Berserker upgrades?

 

[Trilby]

:O
That terrain is awesome. When is your best estimate for releasing it?

 

[Kam]

Probably tomorrow night.

My main concern with the Ranger and Berserker upgrade is lack of models and then of course the increase in filesize. Currently those two units are quite useful even into later game because they are: cheap, ranged which means they can nuke units, and good for dealing with air units.

 

[Kam]

Sorry for the delayed release, applying to graduate school and such.

I'm very excited to release this as it has been refocused on the original two races. The tech trees have been refined and of course the Seed are no more.

Enjoy and I look forward to feedback.

 

[Delterius]

I've played a bit as human and the Purifier seemed quite over the top to me. With 3 of them I was able to completely keep all of my remaining opponents without peons in their gold mines.

 

[Kam]

Yea the AI's aren't to bright, a human player won't have any trouble though. I'll try and think of a way to get the AI's to respond better to that.

As it stands the Purifier has basically no splash damage, very little health, and is a substantial investment considering you could buy two Paladins for what it costs.

 

[Delterius]

Even with the Attack Ground?

 

[Kam]

It seems to be fine to me; I've played it about a dozen times on bnet and once people figure out what is shelling them they take care of it pretty quick. I will continue to scrutinize it though, as I'm sure you know I seek to make this as balanced as possible.

Then there is Recall, which units must be within 1000 range to be affected by - but the thing is the minimum firing range is also 1000. It's a complex unit that has very different applications, just like the Durnholde Warrior.

I can explain that as well. The combat bonus given is rewarded for each kill so the basic idea is to keep your warriors alive in a battle as long as possible. It is also beneficial in a losing battle to sacrifice the warrior and let it die to provide a similar effect to vampire aura and also give a burst of xp to surrounding units. The balance is of course that it's expensive and can be nuked just like the Purifier, and in this case the AI does target them after it targets heroes, and that the warrior must have three kills.

 

[Kam]

Here's a question I've been pondering.

Would it be better if you had less overall units that lasted longer in combat? An example would be taking an Ogre and reducing it's damage by 50% and then setting the food cap back to 120.

Or perhaps leave it the way it is in terms of numbers and cut the damage by %50, so you have large armies but end up with longer battles?

Just a thought.

 

[Dragon Knight]

Make Advanced Builder and Normal Builder the same model and name,
and give the Normal Builder a Morph spell to shift through buildings avaible more swiftly
remove advanced builders from town-halls.

 

[Kam]

If you had to have one unit to be a "super unit" for each race, what would it be?

 

[viktor1995]

I think its a good idea. But you can make only one from it, and if the super unit die, you can't make another one or revive that.

 

[Kam]

Yes, currently they are built at the alters and once they die you can't revive them.

The humans have a long range magic cannon, not sure one the orcs.

 

[viktor1995]

You should add a new buildings directly for them. This building will be in the tech trees' last building.

 

[Kam]

I considered that, but to be honest there are already too many buildings. In play testing I have realized that while WC3 supports as many units and buildings as you want, there is a limit to what is enjoyable for the user.

This is also why there is no refinery for either race for naval units.

 

[viktor1995]

Yes you are true, especialy i love the large types of the units/buildings but this is only i. Hard to make a map that everybody like.

 

[Kam]

So we are nearly at a release here.

Here's a teaser.

 

[supertoinkz]

I see my model <3, I'll look for the next versions.

 

[Trilby]

So, are there any other changes you are planning?
Oh and you might want to remove this from the main post.

"The recent addition of the Seed has been exciting for me as it is a very different race that relies heavily on your ability to micro."

 

[Kam]

So, are there any other changes you are planning?
Oh and you might want to remove this from the main post.

"The recent addition of the Seed has been exciting for me as it is a very different race that relies heavily on your ability to micro."

Ah yes, thank you.


Also there are a very large number of changes that affect combat. Expect units to deal less damage again and battles to last longer. Spell damage has been drastically reduced and more of an emphasis has been placed on confusion and causing disarray among enemy forces. The most significant additions are those of the racial super units, of which you can only train one per game. Heroes are significantly weaker and play a greater support role.

Other things are general balance, spell nerfs, a new map for four players, and creeps that drop worthwhile items.

 

[Kam]

Major update, see OP.

 

[Kam]

I made a decision today, I'm going to reintroduce NE and UD as half races like the naga in stock WC3.

UD are going to be Dark Remnants and NE will be Fallen Guardians.

Unit suggestions?

For instance instead of Ogre/Ogre Magi and Durnholde Warrior, they would have one unit that fulfills both of those units purposes.

The UD will have a teleport ability that can target ziggurats like the protoss in SC2.

 

[Kam]

After rustling with some things for the past day I've come to a decision: I'm going to retire from WC III editing.

It is simply too time consuming and while I have ideas by the plenty I simply have gotten too old to spend so much time here.

I'm going to make one final update to this map before June 5th, if you have any requests or any opinions you want to see manifested in the final version please tell me now.

As it stands the ogre hero will receive a nerf, the Death Knight or Necrolyte will get an ability based on entangle, and there will be slight damage reductions to all combat units.

It's been a long journey with you all for the past 6 years, here's to finishing what I started.

 

[Trilby]

Aww ):
Well, I gotta say this is one of the, if not the, best melee map I've ever played. I really like it as it is now, so I won't ask for anything in the final version.

 

[andrewsarch6]

Aaaagh, first Linaze, and now you, best ones always seem to quit...

Best of luck in your life Kam

Anyways, my largest gripe in this game is the ages it takes to build up a sizable army, it takes a really long while to gain the amount of gold needed for units. I really do think you should lower the HP for the unit, and the cost of the units.

 

[Kam]

I'm flattered you would term mine as the best melee you've ever played, I was never quite sure how many people actually played my map.

In the coming days I'm going to release the updated version, as well as the beginnings of the demonic race I was working on.

I will also be releasing my map open source, my hope is that some industrious member of the hive will continue editing it. I will however leave a disclaimer in the final version stating that it is that, and any version released at a later date is not official.

And I thought this might be a bit of a treat, this is one of the earliest versions of my map, dating back to 1/1/2004. It's simple, and even has a word misspelled in the loading screen.

Look for the final update soon.

EDIT: Just for anyone who is reading old posts, I obviously did not end my project. Keep reading.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

Goodbye Kam. It was nice to know you. I was wondering around while giving first breaths to my wc1 remake and i found you doing yours. Good luck with your life.

 

[davisSS3david]

After rustling with some things for the past day I've come to a decision: I'm going to retire from WC III editing.

It is simply too time consuming and while I have ideas by the plenty I simply have gotten too old to spend so much time here.

I'm going to make one final update to this map before June 5th, if you have any requests or any opinions you want to see manifested in the final version please tell me now.

As it stands the ogre hero will receive a nerf, the Death Knight or Necrolyte will get an ability based on entangle, and there will be slight damage reductions to all combat units.

It's been a long journey with you all for the past 6 years, here's to finishing what I started.

So this is it, it's a darn shame. Well that's your decision and we respect it.

And what Trilby said, this is definitely, one of the best melee maps ever.

Best of luck to you, Kam.

 

[Kam]

Post final version is uploaded. I will be mostly inactive for the next 5 weeks, at the end of which I will release the final version after you guys have had time to root out all the imperfections.

Thanks for all the support guys.

 

[viktor1995]

hy
It's a very sad news that you leave us.
I remember when i didn't know so much about the WE and i tried to make my first wc2 reamke. You helped me a lot. And i never forget it. Good luck with your life

about the final edition: I interest if there any "walking" building. That will interest
viktor

 

[zuligan]

nice! =D

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Gosh... This looks like it's having a good progress, it's really great so do keep up with the good job ~

 

[Kam]

Here is an update list so far for the final version, more will come when I have time.

orb of annihilation on autocast, fixed description
necrolyte/inquisitor adept does not list same structure req.
Can no longer retrain kodo and Purifier
Teleport cast time reduced to 5 seconds
Dark summoning cast time increased to 3 seconds
Ability lists for all units now list abilties in order they are on units from left to right
Archer/Axe Thrower armor decreased to 5 and 6
Healing research description now correctly says 185 healed
Brilliance Aura tells bonus in description
Archer/Axe Thrower magic immune ability descriptions made more clear
All armor and weapon generic upgrades display bonus for each affected units
Archer attack range increase displays % increase
soul sentry no longer works on buildings or mechanical units
specified ogre is alive for ogre replace - stops graphical glitch
Necrolyte armor reduced to unarmored
Catapult secondary attack removed
Catapult and Ballista range increased by 150
Orc Barracks hit points increased to 1400 and Human Barracks decreased to 1300
Cost of melee upgrades increased significantly
Purifier no longer harms friendly/player owned units
Sappers/Demolition Squad now available at tier 1 and cost 30 gold less
Player 5 and 7 defeat messages now correct
Air units selection circle "on water" set to default, False
You will now get one secondary worker in your starting units
keep/castle upgrades given more specific descriptions
Naval towers damage to ships increased by 100 and damage type changed to normal



Also, what would you think about a mix of Icecrown Glacier and Northrend tiles for the 4 player map and Barrens for the 2 player map?

And if there is a neutral hero you'd like to see let me know.

 

[Kam]

Progress continues on the updates and balancing - you also have some new units and heroes to look forward too.

Speaking of which, I've spoken with TriggerHappy and he's approved a mini-hero contest for my map.

Contest Details
I'm looking for a hero that fulfills the following requirements:

1. Neutral hero - That means not directly related to Humans or Orcs.
2. Lore related - This map is a post-wc3 era, so I'm looking for something like a forsaken nightelf guardian or some sort of demon remnant.
3. Naval integrated - This is the most demanding of the requirements by far. The hero needs to somehow work with naval units in a useful way, maybe the hero augments firepower or can drag large amounts of units out to sea.
4. Hero must not exceed 200 kb in custom material before squishing and texture compression.

Reward
1st Place 10 reputation points
2nd Place 5 reputation points
3rd Place 2 reputation points

Current Contestants:
supertoinkz
Kingz

I'm going to ask that you have the hero done before July 21st at 23:59 Central US time.
Contest reward icon is my avatar. =)

 

[supertoinkz]

I'll join, but I have questions.
Does the hero is just one character? (I mean not like the wc3 heroes who have many names)

Thank you.

 

[Kam]

No it is like the other wc3 heroes with multiple names.

 

[Kingz]

Is a sea revenant model suiting enough?

Also can you clarify the 3rd requirement a bit more?

 

[Kam]

The sea giant model is ok, it's definitely an under-utilized model.

As is stands stock warcraft 3 was not designed with naval in mind, hence the years I've put into my mod. Heroes spells and general strategies are based on ground and air units, they treat any water but shallow water as scenery. I'm looking for something that doesn't "own" the seas, but gives the player an edge in naval battles; as you know ships are much more powerful than a single hero.

Also if you'd like to see what the current hero models are for the racial and neutral heroes I've attached a screenshot.