Southern Isles

[Moderator]

13:17, 20th May 2014
Orcnet: Map approved, can be acceptable

 

[Filmting]

Feels a bit large, might gonna make all chokes n stuff a bit smaller.

Edit: Map updated, changed a bit on the creeps, added some more detail, moved the golem/ogre expansion closer to the base and made various chokes a bit smaller by adding more trees.

 

[Heinvers]

A bit empty to be honest. Here's what you can do about it, try adding more river rushes to the shores, cattails and rocks, maybe some ashenvale/sunken ruins type to it.
Also you can add Ashenvale type lily pads and I also hate the Lordaeron Summer tileset.

 

[Filmting]

There's already quite a bit of that, not sure when you downloaded, but will take a look at it, like some ashenvale lily pads.

 

[Heinvers]

Now it's just fine.

 

[Conjurus]

I see why this is your favorite, seems like a very good map.

My thoughts on it:

You mentioned at some point that you intended that tiny isle next to the natural expansion to be a place to build your AoW/ToL in order to creep it. However the aggro range is set to Camp instead of Normal (which is the standard for gold mine creeps afaik). So you can build right infront of it which seems unintended (and can be abused).

ne vs orc:
I like the way the map is designed with a nice mixture of open areas and a decent amount of choke points. However the fact that there is only 1 shop with a strong creep camp makes it quite unavailable for the elf player except for night time. A good orc player who knows when heal scrolls and invu pots pop up can secure almost complete access to it giving the elf a very hard time. Plus the terrain around the center of the map is the more open and orc-friendly part with the elf-friendly parts (where you have obstacles and choke points to protect your talons) being closer to the edges of the map. Adding a level 1 non-attacking hawk with true sight (as it is done on Nomad Isles) would make it a little harder for the BM to just walk in on the shop during day time. Market places are nice and underused in current map pools imo but here it adds to the problematic.
The only other competitive map that uses 1 shop and 1 market place I can think of is EI. And there you have a quite tight map design with lots of choke points in addition to a creep camp (merc) that can be AoW-crept before the orc arrives if done correctly that grants level 2 and a powerful item to compensate.
(Also I watched a casted game by you in which a UD got his Lich's inventory almost fully stacked with claws - you might have a look into the claw drops, too).

Also I feel like the natural exe is a little too easy to creep and could use either slow or ensnare. On the other hand the area around it is quite open and therefore vulnerable to some degree. I guess that's a point to watch when observing custom games on the map.

For human the dragon creep favors AM first quite a lot over MK first imo. I think it's a good idea to actually have an air creep (to support UDs going gargs, especially since I count 8 creep camps with ensnare) - just in a different spot, maybe the random merc/lab. That way you can still creep the exe out with MK militia and the merc/lab isn't required to be crept out completely as creeps can be lured away to use it.

Although I enjoy random neutral buildings I don't think merc camp and laboratory are a good match. Imagine you're elf vs hu with the hu having a merc next to his exe which is quite an advantage while you have an easy possibility to blow your exe up right next to it. Or hu mirror with you being lucky and having AM first vs MK: you can creep the exe relatively easy with 2 WEs and have merc support while your opponent doesn't have merc access. Also you can find right next to the exe and the merc a wand of lightning shield, which is quite a big deal in hu mirror (maybe that would be a better drop somewhere else).

The orange creep next to the main could be rearranged (or the terrain altered) in order to make it easier AoW creepable (right now you got to pretty much place it right in front of the creeps which is risky)

Just my (probably elf-biased) opinion, overall I like the map

edit: also a human (AM first) has 2 easy fast expand possibilities at his hands currently. Don't think that's too good, I like the idea of changing creep camps of dragon exe with merc/lab. The current dragon exe could be a mid/late game expansion with hard orange/easy red creeps (kind of like SV). If you would do that i would rather move the exe to the outside (change positions with the merc/lab). Just saying

 

[Filmting]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback, will take a look at some your suggestions ;>
Auctelly totally forgot about the expansion camps aggro range in alot of the maps i done recently ;o

Btw, you had an oldish version as i can see from the screenshots.

 

[Filmting]

Updated map, changed some creeps and added some ancient of war creeping possibilities at the orange camp. Might revert or something, gonna do some testing and get more feedback. Still not sure what to do with shops, i would like a merc camp, but also a lab. Not sure which would fit best, feedback appreciated on which it should be and why ;>

 

[Conjurus]

The orange camp looks good now but I wouldn't have added the unbuildable terrain on the original AoW spot. That way you would have 2 options: build it right infront of the creeps to save a few seconds if you suspect your opponent to not send any early unit or to do it save (like you can do on SV). That's nothing important however.

Both lab and merc work in that position I think. If you decide to make it a merc camp you should make the exe camp harder another time imo (right now it's 6x3x2x2 and few milita + 1/2 footmen eat through the trolls while an AM + 2 WEs don't need too long for the dragon - although with the heal the dragon now lasts longer than in the older version, so maybe just having test games will figure things out)

btw, I would appreciate version numbers in the maps file name, but that's just me I guess

 

[Filmting]

Yeah, but with 15 downloads didn't find version numbers so relevant just yet.

As for the dragon expansion, it was not really meant for humans to fast expand to it, or if they do they are forced to go Archmage. It's a harder to take expansion, but is in turn more safe. The other expansion is easier to take, but is more open. This was made to also support a choice of where to go for maybe a secret expansion, depending on the random neutral building that spawns at those two bases. You would know if a player will fast expand, he will take the easy expansion, while later in the game your choice for a second for third expansion may variate depending on the neutral building, so i kinda think it's alright for the shop to be a random of both. Your strategy might change depending on which shop that spawns at what locations this time, and by making it hard to take as a first expansion this counteracts the potential imbalance between different shop spawns. The trick here is just to make the expansion here not a viable choice for a 1st one, or punish you in some way if you choose it as a first early expansion.

I think i'm gonna revert the change with the orange camp being AoW creepable. It was never meant to be so to begin with. The first green camp is AoW creepable, and it's quite a high level camp for a green one. In an Elf vs Orc scenario as you stated above, i think it's already quite hard for a Blademaster to creep, his first camp while a Elf can do it without losing any health. The vision thing, just seems odd and not very meleeish to me, because it counteracts the purpose of sleep and invisibility.

There's alot more stuff to talk about, and be sure i read every feedback and take it into consideration and that i have reasoning behind everything, but right now i would say i need some more feedback to really do any changes. There's more research to be done on the racial balances and various matchups, and really need a bunch of people to play it and get a bunch of feedback. There might be alot of stuff i haven't considered while making the map. Gonna stop here, wrote enough already lulz.

Anyway, map updated, reverted the initial orange camp and made it uncreepable with an AoW, and made the Dragon Expansion harder for humans to fast expand to, by changing around the creeps. Also swapped the gold of expansion mines so dragon camp is now 10k, and golem camp is now 11k.

 

[Conjurus]

As for the dragon expansion, it was not really meant for humans to fast expand to it. [...] You would know if a player will fast expand, he will take the easy expansion [...]

Was going to say that a human got 2 perfectly fine fe spots but I've seen there are 2 added little dragons so that might work out as intended.

So you not only reverted the close orange spot to the original but also added unbuildable terrain to it? Ah jeez.

The vision thing, just seems odd and not very meleeish to me, because it counteracts the purpose of sleep and invisibility.

It's being used in a perfectly fine melee map NI and doesn't, at all, interfere with sleep. The hawk doesn't sleep but as he can't attack he doesn't alarm other nearby sleeping creeps. Creeps are alarmed on NI because the vile temptress doesn't sleep. But I see your point with true sight for creeps being uncommon.

There's more research to be done on the racial balances and various matchups, and really need a bunch of people to play it and get a bunch of feedback.

Always nice to watch that on your stream

 

[eubz]

Review

1. Terrain is nicely done with spices added as doodads, props etc.
2. You used some global weather, this is nice and good.
3. Player positions and acquisition of trees and goldmines is just balanced.
4. Creeps are evenly spaced.

Suggestions:

1. You always fail with item drops. Some level 5 or 6 creeps drop lower level items. PLease check them to balance the item drops to the creep levels.
2. I don't think it is good to see forest trolls below red dragons.
3. Could you just have 1 item drop for each green creep camps?
4. I recommend you to have 2 item drops for red creep camps, that would be better.
5. I would like to suggest to use some terrain fog to add some fog effects.

Vote

2/5 Approval

 

[Filmting]

1: These item drops are in the perfect level range. You balance the drop around the camp not the level of the mob dropping it. Try to compare my item drops with those of other blizzard maps used in the competetive play. A level 4 or 5 item from a level 5 mob could be insanely good if the mob is alone, while if it's a bigger camp might be better, but if a weak mob drop too powerful items a blademaster could go in and kill the weak mob and get out again.

2: I think they fit fine, and it was made more for balance purpose since the map was designed for competetive play.

3: I could, but for that initial camp it was more fitting to add 2 items, since there is no biggest creep. The camp itself is also designed in a way to make it harder for orcs to creep it for balance purposes.

4: The red camp have 3 item drops?

5: No

 

[Orcnet]

Map approved.

 

[WTii]

I love the design of this map & overall layout. It has a very nice feel to it, many open paths (some more closed than others), lead to multiple opportunities for players to engage in combat & position themselves strategically.

I think the Red Dragons guarding a gold mine might make it more unobtainable for certain races, I understand it being guarded by tougher creeps to make it more challenging to obtain (as it is more valuable) but I'd prefer those creeps to be land based so it's doable but hard.

Maybe one or two more green camps could be included to switch it up for the players when it comes to creeping patterns.

I'd like to thank Filmting for creating this map, I give it a 4/5 - with a few adjustments I think it will be worthy of a 5.

I had a fun time shoutcasting a game played on Southern Isles by a couple of bitter rivals. If you'd like to see the game for yourselves & how the map plays out in a real 1v1 situation then you can find the video in the description at the top.

 

[Filmting]

Map updated:

The random shop is now a Mercenary Camp
Added 2 Mud Golems to the natural expansion
Changed around on some of the item drops.

Edit: Map updated again, reintroduced the ancient of war creeping of the orange camp near main base.

 

[JCarrill0]

Map updated:

The random shop is now a Mercenary Camp
Added 2 Mud Golems to the natural expansion
Changed around on some of the item drops.

Edit: Map updated again, reintroduced the ancient of war creeping of the orange camp near main base.

This was a great change by the way! (sorry if I haven't spoken up, I have played this map through 3 changes And it gets better each time)

Side note: Don't get me wrong, I just always felt this map would of been better as a Sunken Ruins tileset. *Shrug* I think its because of the outer doodads