Rotten Death Knight

[PrinceYaser]

Aren't all Death Knights rotten?

 

[deepstrasz]

Aren't all Death Knights rotten?

Perhaps, some are like vampires?

 

[PrinceYaser]

Perhaps, some are like vampires?

I didn't know Lich King could raise vampires.

 

[deepstrasz]

I didn't know Lich King could raise vampires.

Neither did I.

The new (Warcraft III) Death Knights are not reanimated creatures but corrupted living ones. They are undead more by the means of their soul being turned to the realm of dead or some sort of shenanigans like that. It's not really clear. However... from WoW onward, these death knights are made pretty much like regular reanimated corpses but given a so called special sword/blade to connect their souls with.

 

[Footman16]

Hey similar to some of the other skins if you could add how much is CnP or freehand roughly, it helps speed up the review process.

 

[AnyNameYouWish]

Hey similar to some of the other skins if you could add how much is CnP or freehand roughly, it helps speed up the review process.

The majority, probably. Like the Lich and Dreadlord, I made these a while ago. I hope that you know that using other images in a skin effectively involves a lot of editing and adaptation and not just pasting it on - including freehand edits to those images.

 

[Footman16]

I hope that you know that using other images in a skin effectively involves a lot of editing and adaptation and not just pasting it on - including freehand edits to those images.

As someone who has made textures before both freehand and CnP I am aware of what goes into it, however the standards of moderation are there to incentivise and encourage freehand work and textures hence why we have the minimum freehand requirements for anything above the Useful/Simple rating. This is to make simple CnP/Recolour textures available for mapmakers and that part of the community who require those kinds of resources whilst maintaining the artistic integrity and credentials for the side of the community. There was a time all CnP/Re-colours were rejected making them completely unavailable, but I think U/S and Lacking is a fair compromise to satisfy everyone.

Since this is CnP, but might be useful to some, it is Approved as Useful/Simple.

 

[AnyNameYouWish]

As someone who has made textures before both freehand and CnP I am aware of what goes into it, however the standards of moderation are there to incentivise and encourage freehand work and textures hence why we have the minimum freehand requirements for anything above the Useful/Simple rating. This is to make simple CnP/Recolour textures available for mapmakers and that part of the community who require those kinds of resources whilst maintaining the artistic integrity and credentials for the side of the community. There was a time all CnP/Re-colours were rejected making them completely unavailable, but I think U/S and Lacking is a fair compromise to satisfy everyone.

Since this is CnP, but might be useful to some, it is Approved as Useful/Simple.

That last line always feels like a total neg or the most backhanded barely-a-compliment whenever I read it. 'Artistic integrity' where you hold certain techniques as worth more than others. 'Yeah, some people might want to use it, but its made using that shitty technique so eh'. I appreciate that that's not necessarily how you mean it, but how I interpret it. Also, you rated these useful/simple and my Necropolis skin uses as much CnP and that's still at lacking, which makes it hard to find. Your standards are subjective and hardly consistently applied as they rely on your flawed judgement. I guess all standards would, but why not judge based on how the final result looks? The description for Useful/simple is 'Simplicity is bliss, low effort and/or may contain minor bugs.' My skins are often judged for their lack of simplicity, they are by no means low effort (except the Icecrown skeleton but that was a request and I only uploaded that because other people found it useful) and none of them contain any bugs.

Of course mentioning how much CnP there is (when you've guessed wrong in the past) speeds up the review process- you don't have to judge on the actual quality of the finished product, just your arbitrary assignment of worth to different techniques. I raised this point to you before, and you said that it wasn't my work because I used other's material. Which is just factually false, because I used the material to make something else. It wouldn't exist without my creativity. You couldn't put the original material I used side by side with my finished skin and get the same thing. It's not like I uploaded one whole image that wasn't mine as a blp and put in a texture path.

Believe it or not, I don't want to start an argument, I don't have the energy for that. I don't think I'll change your mind or the site as a whole, I'm just weak and my brain will be mad at me if I don't say this.

There are many stunning freehand skins on this site. However I'm sure you've rejected your fair share of crappy freehand skins. Likewise, I've found stunning skins, perfect for my projects, that are judged as 'too simple' or 'CnP bad' or 'not enough freehand'. I appreciate that CnP is not rejected wholesale anymore but I feel like the foundation of how these techniques are perceived is fundamentally flawed, and is filtering out and discouraging a lot of good art.

 

[Footman16]

CnP can be moderated as Lacking or U/S, the "Useful" part of Useful/Simple does a lot of heavy lifting. If I believe a skin might be useful to people in some way then it gets U/S. It just depends.

How you interpret what I write is up to you but I add it to give context to the rating. In this case I state how it might be useful in spite of being CnP hence U/S whereas another CnP skin I might point out it's lack of use to the broader community and perhaps lack of quality and hence I would approve it as Lacking.

In terms of arbitrary assignment of techniques this is something that has been around long before I was reviewer and moderator. It doesn't matter how much effort you think you put into your copy and paste jobs, at the end of the day you haven't "drawn" anything artistically as a texture but taken other peoples art. For something to be recommended it requires a certain amount of freehand. Also you point out how I've gotten the amount of CnP in a work wrong before because yeah I'm only Human, I don't have a knowledge of all the art in the world ever produced to be able to tell if it was drawn or not and I know you've drawn textures before.

Have you spoken to other texturers/skinners about this to get their perspective? Because at the end of the day it's the community that decide these rules, and like I said before there was a time these skins would've just been rejected outright for being CnP. I am trying to keep as many people happy here as possible but at the end of the day if you choose to read my comment like that all I can say is that that's not how it's intended, but yes artistic integrity does mean valuing freehand drawing over copying other people's work, this seems perfectly logical and natural to me and is what should be encouraged.

 

[AnyNameYouWish]

CnP can be moderated as Lacking or U/S, the "Useful" part of Useful/Simple does a lot of heavy lifting. If I believe a skin might be useful to people in some way then it gets U/S. It just depends.

I've also seen a lot of skins that have been said to be not useful and CnP, and so get rejected or rated as lacking, have comments that say they're exactly what someone is looking for - therefore being useful.

It doesn't matter how much effort you think you put into your copy and paste jobs

'How much effort you think you put into your copy and paste jobs' so how am I supposed to interpret that? As you not implying that I'm overblowing or straight up lying about the work I put into my textures?

Your arguments are completely circular. It is how it is because that is how it is.

'At the end of the day you haven't drawn anything artistically as a texture but taken other people's art.' You make it sound so malicious. And adding the word artistically just makes it seem like, again, you are implying or outright stating that collage techniques are less artistic than drawing freehand.

Have you spoken to other texturers/skinners about this to get their perspective?

No, I haven't spoken to other texturers/skinners about this. However I did speak to a friend about this who has had her collage work displayed in an art exhibition. Seems that technique is artistic enough for a gallery. And they don't consider it to not be her work, and definitely not 'stolen' or 'taken'. Do you make every brush you use in a drawing program? Did you make the stylus or the tablet? Everyone's using something made by someone else. Would you rather my art never see the light of day because I had to send off emails and wait for permission from artists and photographers and websites, most of whom are probably not even contactable anymore, and a lot of whom wouldn't care that I used it in something they won't see that isn't making money?

but yes artistic integrity does mean valuing freehand drawing over copying other people's work, this seems perfectly logical and natural to me and is what should be encouraged.

Why? You haven't given a reason. You're just accepting it as is, a priori. It seems perfectly logical and natural to me that the author of the work is who makes it, and whatever materials they feel are right to use should be used to make the art come into existence. I guess we have incompatible views on this, and that's fine, I just wish I got a bit of respect. Not a single word of the replies on this thread have been about the skin itself. I appreciate you're a moderator for a website and that's a busy job. It's also fully possible to do technically good but creatively lazy freehand work.

Because at the end of the day it's the community that decide these rules

Is it? Because a lot of people don't stick around in the community precisely because of the moderation. It influences people to value certain things above others.

I know you've drawn textures before.

Yeah, but no one technique or medium is going to be applicable for all the different kinds of things I want to make. Some effects you can only get a certain way.

 

[Footman16]

I've also seen a lot of skins that have been said to be not useful and CnP, and so get rejected or rated as lacking, have comments that say they're exactly what someone is looking for - therefore being useful.

Saying this without showing me doesn't mean much, we don't tend to reject skins any more unless it's absolutely broken or stolen. And different standards were applied in the past as I've made clear multiple times.

'How much effort you think you put into your copy and paste jobs' so how am I supposed to interpret that? As you not implying that I'm overblowing or straight up lying about the work I put into my textures?

No I'm not saying you don't put work into your textures, but what I'm saying is that if you were to handraw the same texture it would require more work and that that work is inherently more valuable that using the select tool, copy and past and then adjusting it and stretching it or warping it to fit. Rather than drawing it from the ground up. I say all this has someone who has made CnP textures and freehand.

Your arguments are completely circular. It is how it is because that is how it is.

Are you familiar with Münchhausen Trilemma?

'At the end of the day you haven't drawn anything artistically as a texture but taken other people's art.' You make it sound so malicious. And adding the word artistically just makes it seem like, again, you are implying or outright stating that collage techniques are less artistic than drawing freehand.

If it were malicious you would be penalised, I'm just describing what you've done and you're interpreting it as such which probably says more about your perspective than mine.

No, I haven't spoken to other texturers/skinners about this. However I did speak to a friend about this who has had her collage work displayed in an art exhibition.

And here your collage work is displayed on modding website without issue. You're the one taking issue with the fact it gets rated as U/S or Lacking and won't ever be Recommended or HQ or DC which we as a communtiy and website are free to dictate based on our own standards.

Seems that technique is artistic enough for a gallery. And they don't consider it to not be her work, and definitely not 'stolen' or 'taken'. Do you make every brush you use in a drawing program? Did you make the stylus or the tablet? Everyone's using something made by someone else. Would you rather my art never see the light of day because I had to send off emails and wait for permission from artists and photographers and websites, most of whom are probably not even contactable anymore, and a lot of whom wouldn't care that I used it in something they won't see that isn't making money?

I also think there's a difference between your friend does and what you're doing. Also your next points about the brush and stylus is just silly imho and not worth engaging with.

Why? You haven't given a reason. You're just accepting it as is, a priori. It seems perfectly logical and natural to me that the author of the work is who makes it, and whatever materials they feel are right to use should be used to make the art come into existence.

Because it requires more effort and talent to make something that's good with freehand work than just copy and pasting. Anyone can copy and paste, but to draw and make it look good requires time, talent and skill.

I guess we have incompatible views on this, and that's fine, I just wish I got a bit of respect. Not a single word of the replies on this thread have been about the skin itself. I appreciate you're a moderator for a website and that's a busy job. It's also fully possible to do technically good but creatively lazy freehand work.

I don't recall ever being disrespectful, you've told me you're deliberately interpreting my words in a particular way and getting upset about it whereas I'm just describing things. You want your CnP work to be valued the same as freehand work and see it as disrespect when its not, but the truth is CnP is just not as valuable artistically for textures as freehand in this community, and that's just the way it is, you can argue with it and try and change it and I am always open to feedback like if you want to make a thread discussing it to get other people's views I'd wholeheartedly support that but this is how it currently stands. I have given you extremely in-depth reviews before for your textures, but as I've made clear before I'm sure, there is no reason for me to give the same level of feedback to a CnP texture when you yourself didn't actually draw it, so why would I?

Is it? Because a lot of people don't stick around in the community precisely because of the moderation. It influences people to value certain things above others.

Yes, we value certain things above others. We believe artistic works that people have made themselves are more valuable than when people geo-merge in the case of models or CnP in the case of textures.

Yeah, but no one technique or medium is going to be applicable for all the different kinds of things I want to make. Some effects you can only get a certain way.

Sure you are free to make whatever you want, nobody's stopping you but we are also free to moderate and review it as we see fit. Anything else would be pure entitlement.