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Ninja Delete! Ninja Delete! Ninja Delete!

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I'm pretty sure I posted something in the User of the Year thread before. i didnt measure it but by estimate it lasted like 4 seconds before someone cut it off the page. now THIS. THIS I dont have a problem with. I wont be a whiny tit about you doing your job, I get that it is in your ballpark to keep the forum clean, and I figure I was off topic because I didn't nominate anyone. but what sort of threw me off was that there was no notice. I feel like there should at least be a visitor message with a brief explanation or a wrapped cookie to take the sour away.

Just one piece of advice: nothing pisses internet people off nice and good like deleting their posts without explaining why you did it

P.S. I dont care about who did it. not trying to uncover who did it or anything stupid like that.
this is more a head's up. because ninja deletion is pretty much a dick move unless it's blatant spam
 
Level 19
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.........

it was auto-deleted because you were not active in the time that the voting takes place thus would have an invalid vote.

calling the admins "dicks" when you recently joined is not something thats going to make you favored. this is not the site for rage. this is the site for creative idealism (whatever that means)
 
Level 3
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if this actually IS endorsed I would like to have a community-open discussion about it.

if it isnt I just need one official statement ensuring it wont happen again and I can put it behind me.

if the staff really thinks this doesnt belong in a public section,
they are free to move it as long as I can still post in/read it.

.........

it was auto-deleted because you were not active in the time that the voting takes place thus would have an invalid vote.
i didn't vote for anyone. i responded to a post. ironically about just "invalid nominations." or sketchy nominations to be precise.

but for reference this is actually the issue. if that was the reason, fine. the point is that I wasn't told.
calling the admins "dicks" when you recently joined is not something thats going to make you favored. this is not the site for rage. this is the site for creative idealism (whatever that means)
really? did you even read anything I posted or did you zoom in on "dick move"?..

I wasnt calling anyone out. I am completely fine with that it got deleted, I would just like to know WHY it got deleted. holy crap.
 
twat said:
I dont care about who did it. not trying to uncover who did it or anything stupid like that.
this is more a head's up. because ninja deletion is pretty much a dick move unless it's blatant spam
Your post followed my very last one, in which I pleaded for the second time to stop random discussions in the nomination thread, stating that you can very well open a thread in Site Discussion if there's anything you want to talk about, regarding the UotY award.

It is our job to evaluate all the masses of nominations in there, and it's much more work when people can't follow a request I have posted several times by now.

I am keeping a very close eye on this nomination thread, and clear it when I deem it to be necessary.

Note that deletions per se can not be viewed by non-staff-members.

Does this answer your "ninja deletion" issue?
 
Level 3
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it answers why it got deleted. and that's alright, thanks for taking the time to explain it, but that wasn't the real issue. the issue is that I had to make a thread about it to find out.

to sum things up:

barring this example, and barring that deleting it was justified, do you guys normally give notice after you delete posts?

if you do -> I have no qualms and you can close this thread.
if you don't -> I really think you should start.

hope that clarifies
 
twat said:
(...) do you guys normally give notice after you delete posts?
Nope.
As I said, deleted posts can only be viewed by staff members, aswell as the stated reasons.
We delete posts if we deem it to be necessary (offtopic, higly inappropriate etc.).
More commonly, we edit posts, should they include any of those subjects.
This can be viewed by everyone.
 
Level 19
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it answers why it got deleted. and that's alright, thanks for taking the time to explain it, but that wasn't the real issue. the issue is that I had to make a thread about it to find out.

to sum things up:

barring this example, and barring that deleting it was justified, do you guys normally give notice after you delete posts?

if you do -> I have no qualms and you can close this thread.
if you don't -> I really think you should start.

hope that clarifies

If your post was deleted than it was in violation of Hive rules (which includes off-topic posts) and if you truly feel like your post shouldn't have been deleted than thats why you use Staff Contact, but they're not going to personally leave every person a VM that had their post deleted
 
Level 3
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^that.

Nope.
As I said, deleted posts can only be viewed by staff members, aswell as the stated reasons.
We delete posts if we deem it to be necessary (offtopic, higly inappropriate etc.).
More commonly, we edit posts, should they include any of those subjects.
This can be viewed by everyone.
this is a problem. most of the time you wouldnt even realize you did anything bad. if you don't want to leave a VM, that's peachy. but couldn't you use the rep system? a site I used to frequent had the vB rep system too and they handled this with "blank reps" (adding/subtracting 0) to leave a quick concise explanation. it usually doesn't need more than a couple words. "not on topic. deleted." goes a long way here.

this way you can even keep track if a user goes and derail threads frequently and you can step in and tell him off. user feels dignified and moderator didn't waste more than 5 seconds avoiding annoying twats posting SD threads ranting about it. how's that for a pancake?
 
Level 25
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^that.


this is a problem. most of the time you wouldnt even realize you did anything bad. if you don't want to leave a VM, that's peachy. but couldn't you use the rep system? a site I used to frequent had the vB rep system too and they handled this with "blank reps" (adding/subtracting 0) to leave a quick concise explanation. it usually doesn't need more than a couple words. "not on topic. deleted." goes a long way here.

this way you can even keep track if a user goes and derail threads frequently and you can step in and tell him off. user feels dignified and moderator didn't waste more than 5 seconds avoiding annoying twats posting SD threads ranting about it. how's that for a pancake?

As far as I know, blank reps are used as warnings for when someone has broken the rules, and can sometimes have a negative impact on the rule-breaker (not getting help on requests-section i.e.). Posting a single off-topic message is really no big deal, and I reckon 13lack just wanted to spare you from negativity.
 
chr2 said:
(...) blank reps are used as warnings (...)
Exactly, and we can not give reputation to the same user indefinitely.
We are bound to the same reputation rules as everyone else.
The only exception are admins and our chieftain, as far as I know.

twat, you assume that we delete messages as punishment of some sort. That is not the case.
Most of the time, it is merely forum moderation, to keep things in order.
Should it actually be because of inappropriate content and the like, the respective user is notified (VM, PM, blank reputation warning, the field "Reason for Editing" etc.) to avoid future breaking of our Code of Conduct.
 
Level 3
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As far as I know, blank reps are used as warnings for when someone has broken the rules
isn't that what you use neg rep for?
twat, you assume that we delete messages as punishment of some sort. That is not the case.
Most of the time, it is merely forum moderation, to keep things in order.
Should it actually be because of inappropriate content and the like, the respective user is notified (VM, PM, blank reputation warning, the field "Reason for Editing" etc.) to avoid future breaking of our Code of Conduct.
not really punishment. but there was obviously something out of line with the post if you decided to delete it. I think the poster has the right to know what that was. especially if you take time putting together a coherent post that you legitimately want to bring to attention.

and without at least a notice it is bound to happen again.

alternatively you can split the topic and create a new thread for it. you must have the tools for that right?
 

Rui

Rui

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Right now, my head is full with exams coming up this week and I don't have all the patience I'd like to do a small dissertation on this matter. I'm just leaving a quick comment (edit: nvm, it's the small dissertation after all) here to avoid, as is usual, to find the thread locked, when I return here to post — probably next weekend, which is plenty of time for this to evolve into what most will label “drama thread”.

From what I understood, it seemed you were concerned less about the erasing of the post in privilege of the lack of a notice, then moving on to suggesting users should be notified when one of their posts get deleted.

It stroke me as odd, because it seemed you wanted to know why, then you said people just should get a notice. Which raises the question: why would there be such a dire need for a notification if not for the user to know the reasons? Is it possible that this user is just concerned not in his particular case but that the site might lose its members because of people getting distressed over their posts being shadowy sickled? Is he on a humanitarian mission?
Then you said users needed to know why their posts were deleted but you don't seem to care why yours was. I am a little confused, but I am not being sarcastic.

I understand and underline that it does «piss users off». One of my recent experiences was the deleting of a large post justifying the creation of the Medal of Honor, in an attempt to prevent, once more, someone from defiling one of my ideas into some twisted aberration.
However, the act was reversed, and I believe you should post in Admin Contact whenever you feel some decision wasn't right. There are still a few staff members (including administrators, unfortunately) who believe the... so-called "Code of Conduct" to be a tome of rigid doctrine more than what it should be: guidelines to be interpreted and applied case-by-case. Where one moderator was too severe, another could have been more soft (note in next paragraph).

Users complain not only about posts but also about resources — which makes it all harder because, since we have so few moderators for each section, there is a sort of absolutism in the criteria to approve a resource (which is that of the section's respective moderators). Relating to the above paragraph, I tried to maintain an environment on the reports forum where moderators should give input on what to do concerning every situation.

Yellow (0 rep) warnings was an idea I toyed with and eventually began using and they seem to be taken quite more lightly.

That said, I also understand why most moderators are not open to disclosure why they have deleted a post. Sometimes, the user will be looking for the reasons merely to discredit them and attempt to bend the rules. Understand that, when negative reputation is given for rule infractions (which we already do), not all users will be happy about it.
When one user provokes another who in return responds with flaming, both of them should receive negative reputation, the first for being provocative, the second for flaming. I found myself neg-repping the second harder than the first, but I can't count how many times that was interpreted as supporting the wrong side («WTF HE BULLIED ME AND I GET -7 HE GETS -3 LOLZ», «So John Flamer insulted the other guy and you gave Grumpy more neg-rep?»). Users inclusively get the notion that it's something personal against them. Right on top of my head I have two examples: FlamePhoenix, who sent me a ragePM and left the site, utterly convinced I held a grudge on him and stalked him, and HeroSlayer, whose nickname I remember from nowhere, who supported my demotion claiming I was a bad moderator in the thread Ralle created to announce it (furthermore, neg repping users was inclusively mentioned as one of the reasons in support of my demotion).

To cut it short on that topic (and others), I will not elaborate on my experiences, but I said this to mention because (being a new member, you probably don't know) staff-user relation has always been a fragile topic around here. Most users on the staff are new, but they know some of our history. Secondly, answering the «why»s is very noble, but not always as pacific and straightforward a resolve as it might seem at first. Nevertheless, I hope the recent fiasco of mass bans and censoring taught people a lesson, especially those now in the staff.

On my end, I would suggest to make users able to see deletion notices, but I believe this was by default and then they no longer could. That story surpassed me. Alternatively, just use the Visitor Message or yellow/grey reputation.



P.S. — Okay, this turned out MUCH longer than I thought, I'm rereading a bit and I think I abstracted a bit, I shouldn't be posting this at this time. I hope you take something out of it. Sleepy, logging off.
 
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It stroke me as odd, because it seemed you wanted to know why, then you said people just should get a notice. Which raises the question: why would there be such a dire need for a notification if not for the user to know the reasons? Is it possible that this user is just concerned not in his particular case but that the site might lose its members because of people getting distressed over their posts being shadowy sickled? Is he on a humanitarian mission?
Then you said users needed to know why their posts were deleted but you don't seem to care why yours was. I am a little confused, but I am not being sarcastic.
oh. the "dont care why" thing was specifically in my case just now for the sake of thread. it was to skirt drama. I can read this situation pretty well; new guy around trying to force-correct the staff. SOMEONE is going to try and pin me as a wanker whining because my post got deleted.

so. the point is I want people to be told (notified) when their posts are deleted with a short concise message explaining why. I'm not expecting Moby Dick, I am expecting "deleted because not on topic".

and humanitarian is a bit iffy. I am being completely selfish here but I am also trying to be rational and this does pay off for everyone.
I understand and underline that it does «piss users off». One of my recent experiences was the deleting of a large post justifying the creation of the Medal of Honor, in an attempt to prevent, once more, someone from defiling one of my ideas into some twisted aberration.
However, the act was reversed, and I believe you should post in Admin Contact whenever you feel some decision wasn't right. There are still a few staff members (including administrators, unfortunately) who believe the... so-called "Code of Conduct" to be a tome of rigid doctrine more than what it should be: guidelines to be interpreted and applied case-by-case. Where one moderator was too severe, another could have been more soft (note in next paragraph).
posting in Admin Contact works on two conditions: this isnt an everyday thing, and the staff actually takes you seriously.
That said, I also understand why most moderators are not open to disclosure why they have deleted a post. Sometimes, the user will be looking for the reasons merely to discredit them and attempt to bend the rules.
but no disclosure just gives that rule-bending twat something else to bitch about.
On my end, I would suggest to make users able to see deletion notices, but I believe this was by default and then they no longer could. That story surpassed me. Alternatively, just use the Visitor Message or yellow/grey reputation.
yyyyyyyesss. eggsactly. we are through the shell and closer to the yolk of my point now.
 

Ralle

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twat, I completely agree. Users should always know why their post is deleted.
Rui said:
On my end, I would suggest to make users able to see deletion notices, but I believe this was by default and then they no longer could. That story surpassed me. Alternatively, just use the Visitor Message or yellow/grey reputation.
I have no idea about when if ever this was changed.
 
So, is it possible to automatically generate PMs / whatever when posts are deleted?
Don't forget to make filling out the "reason" field mandatory, that would be the easiest way of notification, I'd assume.

I completely agree with this, it's the best solution, and since posts can get deleted due to not so serious offenses sometimes, we shouldn't handle it with rep system (as that'd possibly require more changes, be way messier and public).
 
Level 17
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You know, instead of coming in here and complaining "where has my post gone?" you could have just stayed on-topic in the given thread and listened to the moderator. We don't need messages generating when a post has been deleted - people just need to THINK before they ACT.

I think the staff are doing just fine warning people through the reputation system.
 
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