Lagoooon

[Moderator]

00:04, 17th Dec 2015
Shadow Fury: Back to needs fix!

 

[Rex.]

Wow, Thats a crazy one. I like your Idea.

 

[Eldin HawkWing]

I'm amazed on the Symmetry!
Good Job.

 

[Rufus]

Wow, Thats a crazy one. I like your Idea.

I'm amazed on the Symmetry!
Good Job.

Thanks, I appreciate it!
Glad you liked it!

EDIT:
Added screenshots to this thread instead of pastebin.

 

[Daffa]

Nicely done. Both ends are pretty symmetric. And this perfects the theme of "Rush Blows", since you have to strike enemy fast.

 

[Rufus]

Nicely done. Both ends are pretty symmetric. And this perfects the theme of "Rush Blows", since you have to strike enemy fast.

Thanks!
Yeah the games goes in crazy speed...
Do you mind rating aswell?

 

[Shadow Fury]

Crazy as hell, messy as hell... that's how I'd describe your map in brief words.

The idea of making a tiny fast-paced melee map is fantastic but the way you executed it isn't good. By simply looking at the dimensions of the starting locations, I immediately realized that the map was already problematic. The locations are very restricted and the pathways are very narrow. Even a humble battle of a bunch of tier 1 units plus some heroes would be very hard. Besides, if the players manage to expand their armies, it will be extremely hard to fight, making the game boring. In addition, building a full base is virtually impossible so it is pretty hard to get tier 3 units if you survive the first minutes of the game of fast attacks from the enemy player.

I have a word on item drops and creep camps. Specific item drops are never a good idea because they ruin the uniqueness of each game. I'd highly recommend making them random. In regard to creep camps, they are too overpowered for such a tiny map. I'll never be able to tackle the red creep camps as my heroes will not be able to level up enough and I won't be able to let all my units fight due to the very restricted area.

Lastly the terrain. You could of some tile variation at the starting locations rather than leaving it with one tile only. You may also add some watery doodads on the shallow water such as seaweeds and lily pads to decorate it.

I'm a little unsure about this map. I'd prefer to see the issues I mentioned fixed before considering an approval. You must expand the playable area even if it's a 1v1 and fix the creep camps + item drops. For now, your map is set to needs fix.

 

[Rufus]

Lastly the terrain. You could of some tile variation at the starting locations rather than leaving it with one tile only. You may also add some watery doodads on the shallow water such as seaweeds and lily pads to decorate it.

More doodads can always be added! I tried populating the waters a little, but wasn't satisfied with the results... I can try harder though!

Specific item drops are never a good idea

Might be. All I really wanted was to make sure you recieved powerful items. If you know the map, you see the creeps as objectives, knowing they will greatly empower your hero, which is important because of the small armies you can conjure.

This is also why there are such powerful creep camps (maybe I should reduce a little). You take a risk engaging them, but gain a grand prize for defeating them. I have considered increasing the power of the items dropped from them.

I don't mind fixing random drops, but I cannot see its importance.
Please tell me if you think it is important, and I'll do it!

...looking at the dimensions of the starting locations...

I have considered adding just a little area behind the bases for more area to build on. Although, that would mean increasing it over 32x32 which was the challenge I wanted to keep to... If you think that it is absolutely neccesary for approval, I'll do it.

Besides, if the players manage to expand their armies, it will be extremely hard to fight, making the game boring

This was intentional. I don't think it is necessarily boring, I think this offers new tactical experiences. If you are not able to create a powerful army, you'll have to rely more on your hero (thus the oppurtunity to get good items).

I think that following most of your suggestions will turn this into just another blizzard style melee map, which is not what I wanted when I created it. Should I perhaps classify it as an altered melee to avoid this issue?

To do:
-Try to improve terrain a little
-A little less powerful creep camps
-Random drops?

 

[Shadow Fury]

More doodads can always be added! I tried populating the waters a little, but wasn't satisfied with the results... I can try harder though!

That's great! Keep experimenting.

Might be. All I really wanted was to make sure you recieved powerful items. If you know the map, you see the creeps as objectives, knowing they will greatly empower your hero, which is important because of the small armies you can conjure.

This is also why there are such powerful creep camps (maybe I should reduce a little). You take a risk engaging them, but gain a grand prize for defeating them. I have considered increasing the power of the items dropped from them.

I don't mind fixing random drops, but I cannot see its importance.
Please tell me if you think it is important, and I'll do it!

Random item drops provide different loots every time, introducing some uniqueness to the game. Some players might not like to get the same items every single game or they might not suit their favourite heroes, that's why it's a very good idea to make them random.
Powerful creep camps are... too powerful. Yes, it's a risk, but it's not worth it at all! You are a few metres from the enemy thus losing your army means instant defeat. It's 100% sure you'll lose so this is a suicide. Making the items dropped stronger doesn't fix anything because the creeps are still too difficult to beat. You must nerf them.

I have considered adding just a little area behind the bases for more area to build on. Although, that would mean increasing it over 32x32 which was the challenge I wanted to keep to... If you think that it is absolutely neccesary for approval, I'll do it.

No, don't expand, just move/remove some of the canopy trees and it'll be alright. You may even increase the HP of trees if too few remain at the end.

This was intentional. I don't think it is necessarily boring, I think this offers new tactical experiences. If you are not able to create a powerful army, you'll have to rely more on your hero (thus the oppurtunity to get good items).

Well, in all melee games I've played in my life, when the armies were clogged up, the game got pretty long and boring. My heroes were stuck amidst my units and the ones of the enemy. Ranged troops kept damaging my heroes until they died. All I could do was watching the massacre. That was with wider areas than the ones in your map. Heroes have no escape therefore I cannot really see how I should rely more on my heroes.

I think that following most of your suggestions will turn this into just another blizzard style melee map, which is not what I wanted when I created it. Should I perhaps classify it as an altered melee to avoid this issue?

The problem isn't with the map category. If you classified this as an altered melee map, rejection would be its only fate as this isn't at all an altered melee. My suggestions should help you improve your map and increment the balance and fun.

 

[Rex.]

You can do it Rufus!

 

[Rufus]

Fixed changes as suggested by Shadow Fury:
-Made creeps drop random
-Increased base size by removing trees and increasing lumber amount in each remaining tree
-Nerfed north-west and south-east creep camps greatly and added rune of greater healing to the drops of the hydra in the middle.
-North creep camp doesn't take up as much space, making it a potential battlefield
-Added more eye-candy

EDIT:
I'm considering changing the max food limit to 50, and changing upkeep levels (to 20, 30, 40) in order to prevent the players from building massive armies, and clogging up the battle areas.
What do you think?

 

[SeedinAethyr]

Keep it a traditional melee map. Don't edit the game constants.

 

[Rufus]

That's what I thought aswell.
I might just put it in the altered melee version otherwise.

Hmm, I'll probably follow your advice. Thanks!

 

[Shadow Fury]

Keep it a traditional melee map. Don't edit the game constants.

Why not? Some originality would spice up the game.

Anyway, have you thought of scaling down the units a little (less collision size) and/or changing the Pathing Map of structures? That would really help.

Regarding items, making them specific is never a good idea. Why always getting the same items every single time? Varying every time would be better. In addition, the item sets you created are unbalanced. The Hydra, for example, ranges from level 3 to level 6. But... the creep is level 10! Getting an item of level 3, 4 or 5 would be scanty, even if it drops a rune of greater healing. Mind changing the item drops?

 

[Rufus]

Mind changing the item drops?

Of course!
This is my first melee map, so I appreciate the feeback.
After reviewing a lot of pending maps I also understand that this is a strange and not very good way to have items drop.

Anyway, have you thought of scaling down the units a little (less collision size) and/or changing the Pathing Map of structures? That would really help.

If I did both I might aswell just make the map bigger.
I think I'm going to stick to changing building paths, so that they don't have an unbuildable field anymore, and perhaps scale down some structures.

Can you set this maps status to Awaiting Update?
This map is not really my priority right now, and it is part of the pending clog.