If the Horde won the Second War......

[Cherrymage]

......what will happen? If the Horde won the Second War

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

They go to Kalimdor under order of their demon commanders. I guess :3


EDIT: I figured I was wrong.

 

[Cherrymage]

......and they go destroy the world tree?

 

[VeljkoM]

Orcs in Second War didn't obey demons. Doomhammer destroyed the Shadow Council and later in war Gul'dan also dies (then again Gul'dan always served Gul'dan only).

What would happen is that humans would be enslaved or exterminated. High Elves would be exterminated and Trolls would gain back their lands. Dwarves and Gnomes would probably be under siege for a long time until either they surrender or Horde eventually successfully conquers them. Then Horde would face same problem it faced before First War (I am speaking from wc2 perspective when Draenei were extinct), which is "Who to kill now" and either they would discover Kalimdor (then back to square 1) or return to Dreanor to fight orcs that didn't have guts to follow them or make new portal and conquer new planet and repeat until final defeat.

 

[Cherrymage]

Ujimasa Hojo had made the "Desolation" map series which shows what might happened if the Horde won the Second War......but VeljkoM's imagination and explanation is good also

 

[VeljkoM]

Desolation Horde Story

When Gul'Dan and Cho'gall took a third of the Horde's army west out into the sea, Infinite Dragons in disguise advised Doomhammer not to go after them and instead, continue pressing on towards the Capital City. Despite the valiant efforts of its defenders, the city was eventually overrun by the Horde. While his warriors were busy consolidating their territory and pursuing the escaping civilians, Doomhammer received reports that remnants of the Alliance's army were gathering at Stromgarde. With that knowledge, he planned his next move.

Doomhammer marched his army toward Alterac City only to find the city sacked and its treacherous nobles executed. He decided to set up camp in the ruined city for his attack upcoming attack on Stromgarde. His warriors were able to round up some Perenolde loyalists. He then commanded them to join up with the fleeing refugees and infiltrate the other remaining kingdoms in exchange for their lives. His warriors would also find the exiled Frostwolves hiding in a valley. Doomhammer went there to ask Durotan personally to join his conquest of the continent but the latter refused. Durotan called out Doomhammer on his genocidal campaign and told him that he was no better than Gul'Dan and Blackhand. Despite their refusal to join, Doomhammer decided to leave the Frostwolves in peace.

Meanwhile in Quel'thalas, Zul'jin and his detachment was able to breach Silvermoon. With the help of Gul'dan's Death Knight who remained under his command, they were able to overpower the city's defenders. As they began to slaughter countless numbers of High Elves, they were attacked from behind by the Wildhammer Dwarves who had just abandoned Aerie Peak. Zul'jin's detachment was eventually routed with the remaining Death Knights annihilated. Zul'jin would gather another army in order to attack Silvermoon again but was called back by Doomhammer.

Thanks to the Horde's huge spoils, Trade Prince Steamwheedle was able to buy off numerous assets from the other cartels in Kezan. As he was aggressively taking over his rivals' businesses, Doomhammer would ask him for more siege units. Expecting even more spoils, Steamwheedle happily obliged.

After he had assembled his army, Doomhammer led the attack against the Alliance stationed at Stromgarde. The siege would drag on for months but the Horde with their superior numbers eventually won the battle. Doomhammer personally battled and slew Anduin Lothar in single combat. Despite their decisive victory, he would eventually discover that Stromgarde was just a decoy. By the time they had conquered Stromgarde, Dalaran was protected by a shield, Gilneas was protected by the Greymane Wall, and Kul'Tiras was protected by a naval blockade.

The Horde's victory in Stromgarde cemented their dominion in the mainland. Doomhammer ordered the settling of their newly conquered territory. Orcs from Draenor would arrive in droves through the Dark Portal. Meanwhile in Kezan, Steamwheedle was able to buy off the entire island for his cartel and now called himself Trade King with the other Trade Princes either going into exile or committing suicide. Despite all of this, Doomhammer knew that he would still have to deal with remnants of the Alliance in the future. Zul'jin had already began launching raids against Silvermoon once again while the Black Tooth Grin Clan continued with the siege of Ironforge and Gnomeregan. Doomhammer also knew that he would have to deal with Gul'dan as well and had already sent scouts after them. Nonethless, Doomhammer was confident that it was only a matter of time before all of the continent belongs to them.

I disagree with this because it changes the the order of events from warcraft 2. As you see the first thing on the list is "Gul'dan not being stopped", which happens after destruction of Stromgarde and start of the Qul'thalas invasion. After Gul'dan was supposed to be stopped comes the first fall of Dalaran (out of 3). Of course Quel'thalas doesn't fall in Wc2 but if the Horde had destroyed Lordearon then I don't see how Elves and Wildhammer dwarves would stop Zul'jin who would receive the help he was promised. Graymane wall couldn't realistically stop the naval invasion so Gilneas would fall. Dalaran should be destroyed in the first place. And you can't "naval blockade" as defense, the idea of naval blockade is to stop ships from entering and leaving, if anything Horde would naval blockade Kul Tiras and that is worst thing that happen to a trade nation.

For some reason he assumes that Horde didn't go through Stromgrade first to reach Alterac. Also seems that Gul'dan is far more inclined to Necromancy when he was a Warlock and not a Necroylte. His story is nice and all but question here is "If the Horde won the Second War" so we must accept Wc2 orc ending without altering anything (So Gul'dan dead; Alterac, Lordearon, Stromgrade, Stratholm and Dalaran destroyed; Khaz Modan under siege; Quel'thalas in process of invasion.

 

[Cherrymage]

So you are right, tauren

 

[E.M.C]

Pretty interesting topic, and Veljko is pretty spot on. Too bad the Horde victory isn't cannon.

 

[Cherrymage]

Canon or Cannon?

 

[Biggrouse]

;;;squiboy;;;

 

[VeljkoM]

Canon or rather as Warcraft prefers "lore" since it is easier then to dismiss irregularities. And this would be cannon.

 

[JCarrill0]

Orcs in Second War didn't obey demons. Doomhammer destroyed the Shadow Council and later in war Gul'dan also dies (then again Gul'dan always served Gul'dan only).

What would happen is that humans would be enslaved or exterminated.

Do you ever see a history line where Horse enslaved people? and why would the humans be exterminated, why not survived but didn't win?

High Elves would be exterminated and Trolls would gain back their lands.

Elves Exterminated? Really cuase last time i checked the survived a scourge invasion and.. lol that was far worse then what trolls or Orcs did to them. Amani (Forest Trolls) want their lands back, but are backstabbers, Im pretty sure the orcs would of Destroyed the trolls before they would of Killed the elves...

Dwarves and Gnomes would probably be under siege for a long time until either they surrender or Horde eventually successfully conquers them.

Dwarves never surrender, Look at the dark iron Dwarves for example..
Why couldnt the humans be survived and have the kingdom of Stormwind in ruin where the had to seek refuge in ironforge? Does that not sound like humans and dwarves?

Then Horde would face same problem it faced before First War (I am speaking from wc2 perspective when Draenei were extinct), which is "Who to kill now" and either they would discover Kalimdor (then back to square 1) or return to Dreanor to fight orcs that didn't have guts to follow them or make new portal and conquer new planet and repeat until final defeat.

Ok, first off the lost one (draeni) were never extinct, Second The horde would kill the trolls before going to kalimdor, plus they would have to have areason to GO to kalimdor, keep in mind no one know about Kalimdor untill Mediev (the prophet) told them to sail to the "Distant Lands" .. and Im pretty sure he wouldnt be telling the horde to go there in this timeline. They would most likely suffer the same problems that had in lord of the clans where thrall found them lethargic. I do agree they might go BACk through the dark portal and try to conquer that but they would ahve to deal with Magtheridon and his fel orcs with the demon blood Fel orcs! Keep in mind orcs are strong but it was thrall who used his wits and smarts trained by humans to overcome odds, not Orgrim. I think they would have a hard time defeating Fel orcs imo. not saying it cant be done by the old horde, just not easy.

I disagree with this because it changes the the order of events from warcraft 2. As you see the first thing on the list is "Gul'dan not being stopped", which happens after destruction of Stromgarde and start of the Qul'thalas invasion. After Gul'dan was supposed to be stopped comes the first fall of Dalaran (out of 3). Of course Quel'thalas doesn't fall in Wc2 but if the Horde had destroyed Lordearon then I don't see how Elves and Wildhammer dwarves would stop Zul'jin who would receive the help he was promised. Graymane wall couldn't realistically stop the naval invasion so Gilneas would fall. Dalaran should be destroyed in the first place. And you can't "naval blockade" as defense, the idea of naval blockade is to stop ships from entering and leaving, if anything Horde would naval blockade Kul Tiras and that is worst thing that happen to a trade nation.

But see you don't have to see how he see's it, You only have to accept that it was his vision he decided to base his map on, not that any of it would be actual facts. Much like you basing opinion which you see the best way to go, while I disagree with you. I do have to accept that it is your opinion which I have

For some reason he assumes that Horde didn't go through Stromgrade first to reach Alterac. Also seems that Gul'dan is far more inclined to Necromancy when he was a Warlock and not a Necroylte. His story is nice and all but question here is "If the Horde won the Second War" so we must accept Wc2 orc ending without altering anything (So Gul'dan dead; Alterac, Lordearon, Stromgrade, Stratholm and Dalaran destroyed; Khaz Modan under siege; Quel'thalas in process of invasion.

Why must we accept that dalaran would fall so easy? your saying the council of 6 would just easily fall to the horde? I don't think so bud.
I do agree all of which would be in troubles of on going invasion, but just because the orc won the second war, does not mean they won by total domination... Many, many, MANY different outcomes can be issued if simple minor details were changed that allowed them to win, Not just total supremacy!

Please, oh please make sure you can get a better understanding of how timelines can work and how a minor change in the timeline can make significant changes, but not have just ONE outcome

 

[Cherrymage]

Do you ever see a history line where Horse enslaved people? and why would the humans be exterminated, why not survived but didn't win?

Elves Exterminated? Really cuase last time i checked the survived a scourge invasion and.. lol that was far worse then what trolls or Orcs did to them. Amani (Forest Trolls) want their lands back, but are backstabbers, Im pretty sure the orcs would of Destroyed the trolls before they would of Killed the elves...

Dwarves never surrender, Look at the dark iron Dwarves for example..
Why couldnt the humans be survived and have the kingdom of Stormwind in ruin where the had to seek refuge in ironforge? Does that not sound like humans and dwarves?

Ok, first off the lost one (draeni) were never extinct, Second The horde would kill the trolls before going to kalimdor, plus they would have to have areason to GO to kalimdor, keep in mind no one know about Kalimdor untill Mediev (the prophet) told them to sail to the "Distant Lands" .. and Im pretty sure he wouldnt be telling the horde to go there in this timeline. They would most likely suffer the same problems that had in lord of the clans where thrall found them lethargic. I do agree they might go BACk through the dark portal and try to conquer that but they would ahve to deal with Magtheridon and his fel orcs with the demon blood Fel orcs! Keep in mind orcs are strong but it was thrall who used his wits and smarts trained by humans to overcome odds, not Orgrim. I think they would have a hard time defeating Fel orcs imo. not saying it cant be done by the old horde, just not easy.


But see you don't have to see how he see's it, You only have to accept that it was his vision he decided to base his map on, not that any of it would be actual facts. Much like you basing opinion which you see the best way to go, while I disagree with you. I do have to accept that it is your opinion which I have

Why must we accept that dalaran would fall so easy? your saying the council of 6 would just easily fall to the horde? I don't think so bud.
I do agree all of which would be in troubles of on going invasion, but just because the orc won the second war, does not mean they won by total domination... Many, many, MANY different outcomes can be issued if simple minor details were changed that allowed them to win, Not just total supremacy!

Please, oh please make sure you can get a better understanding of how timelines can work and how a minor change in the timeline can make significant changes, but not have just ONE outcome

Hmm......actually you're almost right (if not completely right)

 

[VeljkoM]

Before I respond back I must make on thing clear. I was considering the given lore from Warcraft 2. I did not consider what was added in WoW at all. Not everything I said are opinions many things were simple Wc2 facts.

Example:
"Warcraft 1 and 2 manual specifically say that natives of Dreanor are dead (Draenei first appears in in Wc2 manual). In Wc3 retcons that and makes Draenei alive barely. WoW retcons further and we all know all that."

Do you ever see a history line where Horse enslaved people? and why would the humans be exterminated, why not survived but didn't win?

Hm I should consider Horse thing sounds like a fun concept but if that was poking hole in my claim that orcs not serving demons well I have already said that Doomhammer destroyed the Shadow Council. Doomhammer never drank the blood of Mannaroth and didn't want warlocks controlling him. And I did say "exterminated or enslaved" so death was not the only option. Of course it is not unreasonable to instead say that humans went in to hiding and wage guerrilla war like Draenei (lost ones) and is I agree more logical conclusion. My main point was Horde would win and human kingdoms would be gone.

Elves Exterminated? Really cuase last time i checked the survived a scourge invasion and.. lol that was far worse then what trolls or Orcs did to them. Amani (Forest Trolls) want their lands back, but are backstabbers, Im pretty sure the orcs would of Destroyed the trolls before they would of Killed the elves...

Yes Elves would be exterminated (or human example from above) as in this concept their allies humans were defeated and they can't expect Keal this time to come from Outland with new powerful magic to save them. Also it is actually very unreasonable that Blood Elves are numerous as they are in WoW since Scourge Invasion supposedly killed off 90% (I still think that estimate is ridiculous) population and did decimate Silvermoon and even Well of Eternity. Forest Trolls aren't backstabbers they left the Horde because it was Horde who disappointed them when Doomhammer instead of finishing of Quel'thalas attacked Lordearon instead and even then trolls stayed with orcs (we can be sure they were still allied during events of dark Portal). In short Trolls were backstabbed not the other way around. Even if Trolls did decide to betray Orcs they still would do it after they have first secured their ancestral land or else whole alliance would be pointless. Trolls hate elves much more than anyone else.

Dwarves never surrender, Look at the dark iron Dwarves for example..
Why couldnt the humans be survived and have the kingdom of Stormwind in ruin where the had to seek refuge in ironforge? Does that not sound like humans and dwarves?

Under sufficient torture everyone breaks. It might take years, decades, centuries but Dwarves alone would fall eventually. How long could they survive hiding inside Ironforge while orcs occupy surface (yes they had secured Khaz Modan before attacking Stromgarde). Dark Iron Dwarves were added in WoW and I forgot them since they seem to me like they appeared out of thin air. And to refresh your memory after destruction of Stormwind humans evacuated to Lordearon under guidance of Lothar and not to Khaz Modan. And before you ask regarding why didn't other kingdoms evacuate to Khaz Modan keep in mind that was the direction from where one part of the Horde army was comming from.

Ok, first off the lost one (draeni) were never extinct, Second The horde would kill the trolls before going to kalimdor, plus they would have to have areason to GO to kalimdor, keep in mind no one know about Kalimdor untill Mediev (the prophet) told them to sail to the "Distant Lands" .. and Im pretty sure he wouldnt be telling the horde to go there in this timeline. They would most likely suffer the same problems that had in lord of the clans where thrall found them lethargic. I do agree they might go BACk through the dark portal and try to conquer that but they would ahve to deal with Magtheridon and his fel orcs with the demon blood Fel orcs! Keep in mind orcs are strong but it was thrall who used his wits and smarts trained by humans to overcome odds, not Orgrim. I think they would have a hard time defeating Fel orcs imo. not saying it cant be done by the old horde, just not easy.

Yes they were (Link of my claim) (in wc1 manual they weren't even named):

Like an elemental force of havoc and destruction we thundered through the lands of the Draenei devastating all that we beheld. Not one life was spared. No building was left standing. The only traces of their existence were the blood-soaked fields they had worked for nearly five thousand years and the rank, acrid smell of the huge victory fires that consumed the bodies of their young. The Draenei were a weak people - hardly worth the effort of our raiding sweep. In the end, however, even these simple victories serve to keep the inferior in their place.

I do think it is far fetched that they would go to Kalimdor, I assumed it would be found by accident, extorted from High Elves or reported by Goblins. I don't know why would they go to war with trolls since they were quite similar back then. Only because the lack of any other opponent.

Magtheridon wouldn't be on Dreanor and fel orcs wouldn't existed as destruction of Dreanor wouldn't have happened. With Horde never defeated in second war it questionable if events of Dark Portal would happen again so no destruction of Dreanor and Outland becoming part of Twisted Nether. Instead on dreanor would be Orc Clans that didn't cross Portal or accepted leadership of Doomhammer like Laughing Skull clan or what ever forces Ner'zhul could intentionally gather.

But see you don't have to see how he see's it, You only have to accept that it was his vision he decided to base his map on, not that any of it would be actual facts. Much like you basing opinion which you see the best way to go, while I disagree with you. I do have to accept that it is your opinion which I have

Oh I have no problem about what he thought up, it is really great story. I am just saying it isn't strictly "Orcs won Second War". Also key difference he retcons events, I make assumptions (not facts) based of lore up to the point of Wc2 orc ending with no change.

Why must we accept that dalaran would fall so easy? your saying the council of 6 would just easily fall to the horde? I don't think so bud.
I do agree all of which would be in troubles of on going invasion, but just because the orc won the second war, does not mean they won by total domination... Many, many, MANY different outcomes can be issued if simple minor details were changed that allowed them to win, Not just total supremacy!

Yes, damn city had fallen 3 times (1,2,3) and against all logic it gets remade. Twice in Wc2 and once in Wc3. This is not my conclusion it is literally mission before the last in Wc2 orc campaign when Dalaran falls. Blame Blizzard not me.

Please, oh please make sure you can get a better understanding of how timelines can work and how a minor change in the timeline can make significant changes, but not have just ONE outcome

Think I have shown that I have quite firm grasp of pre-wow lore. What I said is one of the possibilities and I can't claim what I said is only one possibility. That is the nature of "What if'" histories always. But before I change my mind I would like a theory that doesn't disregard warcraft 2 orc campaign. I maybe no longer claim title of loremaster but do not think I have forgotten lore of Warcraft 1,2 and 3.

 

[JCarrill0]

Understandable, but keep in mind some of the events such as the war of the three hammer (was not during wow, but way before the bronze beards won ironforge)
I change my opinion on Dalaran, I just think the dang mages are too damn stubborn to give up. Its the council of 6, these mages are very powerful!
As for the elves, well not all High elves were blood elves later on, meaning they didn't all follow Kael, several moments even in vanilla wow and later on show that high elves existed after the new found Blood Elves came to be. So I do think they would exist, much liek they do now in current timeline. just scattered
As for the Forest Trolls (Amani) think why they allied up with the horde. They wanted their lands back, They wont share it. The Amani would eventually go to war with the horde imo, but hey we all have different opinions here
Orcs discovering Kalimdor by accident? Hmm ok I can go with that....

And finally as for your Lore on only wc1-3 and not Wow... well hey not all loremasters keep up to date, so don't give up your title just yet.

I just think Deathwing would come back after all of this anyways just like he did before, question is.. Would he serve along side them, or try to lead them... Onyxia and Nefarion would also be around eventually... Not to mention The Dragon Aspects would step in (and yes they were around BEFORE wow lore).

Also say the Orc didnt discover Kalimdor By accident, what if the night Elves came to Azeroth after the burning legion returned... keep in mind they will happen regardless of who won the war... Question is, would the horde survive a Scourge Invasion Followed by Demons returning? Whos to say Kel'thuzard didn't get replaced by an Orc Warlock-necromancer-Lich? They don't have to be Humans to be cult of the damnned, not humans to be turned into the undead scourge, they had orcs too yanno

 

[VeljkoM]

When I say WoW lore I mean lore created for WoW game. There was no War of Three hammers before WoW game as far as I know. Still Dark Iron Dwarves lore was mostly in classic WoW quests so I do not know what Dark Iron Dwarves were doing in Second War. I mean maybe Dark Iron Dwarves would surprise the Horde from the back while Orcs are busy in North and their forces were stretched thin. Heck maybe Jungle Trolls too would attack Horde from the back.

Dalaran falling is an odd thing but should take in too consideration that magic used to be less powerful, brutish (blame games for only showing destruction) and number of magic users didn't seem that common. I believe anyway that Horde used Death Knights who were before original more magic oriented and were created for sole reason to counter Dalaran mages.

Well I don't say High Elves no longer exist (real timeline), many found sanctuary in human cities. Sadly the high elves from Classic WoW that were in Plaguelands were killed off in Cataclysm. But most elves did became Blood Elves but that doesn't mean all blood elves went to Outland. It was still Outland Elves that came help their brothers that stayed in Quel'thalas to retake it and they joined the horde while those that stayed on Outland remained with Ilidari. But if orcs had won than blood elves wouldn't exist and they would never go to Outland where they gained power. It is confusing when I say it like that.

Actually Trolls allied out of debt to the Horde after Zul'jin was rescued. Orcs were more interested in fighting than owning land but they needed Azerothian allies against Alliance and Trolls were perfect who until then only had enemies everywhere. Either they would in the end come to understanding (like orcs had done with Ogres) or orcs would kill trolls after they were no longer useful. Trolls were wiling to go to Dreanor in post second war and fight for Ner'zhul even after Doomhammer failed so I think Forest Trolls and Old Horde did have some respect for each other. Besides all orc clans if given a chance would try to rule the horde so troll mentality fits perfectly.

I rejected loremaster title because I dislike WoW lore. I simply can't accept WoW as part of the previous games. But this is not the place to explain my dislike for WoW lore.

Aspects were in Wc3 manual and pre-wow novels. Alextraza was enslaved by orcs, Malygos was insane and didn't care about anything, Ysera forever sleeps, Nozdromu was/is/will be insane and all 4 were at that point in time handicapped because of events from War of the Ancients. As for Deathwing he was the one who helped orcs to enslave red dragons in the first place out of spite. In Dark Portal Deathwing joins the Horde in exchange for orcs to grant him a world for himself. While in the novel Day of the Dragon (location in timeline unclear) Deathwing manipulates humans and orcs. It is not unreasonable to say that Deathwing would find a way to benefit from orc victory since he helped them a lot.

Night Elves don't know what is going on in Eastern Kingdoms as far as I know. And actually Scourge might not happen as destruction of Dreanor would be avoided and Ner'zhul wouldn't be the Lich King and start Third War. Also most Liches were Orcs (notice the skull shape?), they were necrolytes that followed Ner'zhul through the portal and ended up in Twisted Nether. Actually what is more logical to happen is: "Legion guides Horde without their knowledge to destroy Night Elves and then Legion would come and "reward" Horde". Hey it worked against Cenarious.

 

[JCarrill0]

I don't think you read my post correctly, you are just confirming what I posted about.
I guess your saying you agree with me? *shrug*
you also keep basing your idea on One and only One outcome. I think there is many different outcomes who to say That there would be no Lich king? Just because one event doesn't take place, does not mean the future event can't happen any other way.
Timelines are tricky, and hard to debate on. While some events cant be change in order to prevent certain outcomes, it's not entirely true, some events prevented can cause a different outcome that STILL make the events your trying to prevent still come true!

And just because you refuse to acknowledge that wow is apart of Warcraft Lore, doesn't mean its Not. It is Lore! Period.

Why don't you make a post on how you think what COULD happen, rather then post a thread on what WILL happen

 

[VeljkoM]

Yes I did agree with some stuff you said and added some additional info I find relevant. We are here to discuss not argue.

I agreed that I should have considered Dark Iron Dwarves and have suggested how they can change my original idea.

For Dalaran I was implying that I understand how you feel but by mentioning Death Knights I was saying how Orcs managed to win (Death Knights).

High Elves was me just stating basic lore. Seemed to me like you thought that Blood elves were only those that followed Kael to Outland. It is slightly off topic.

Trolls I agree and disagree. You say that troll and orcs would fight while I say that is one option but I have shown examples why I think orcs and trolls could tolerate each other.

Regarding aspects I disagree that they would step in against Horde because they were too weak and insane and one was enslaved even. Deathwing I agree that he would be relevant and I don't know what he would do. Would Deathwing still behave like he did in Dark Portal expansion, would he decide that orcs are too powerful and need to be delt with?


Why do you persist that I only think there is only "One outcome"? I am saying in case of Lich King it couldn't be Ner'zhul and that there is no reason for burning legion to make scourge (plan B). They created Scourge because Orcs lost the war (plan A failed). BUT if orcs had won the war (plan A) than why create Scourge which is plan B. I am saying why start plan B when plan A didn't fail. Also don't you consider destruction of Dreanor a rather big event?

 

[JCarrill0]

what I ment by the Elves was not all Elves followed him through the dark portal (which you mentioned them going to outland, not all elves did this (not irreverent here)

I think the dragons would step in once Deathwing came back, that's all I ment by that. Also if the Scourge invasion threatened Azeroth where they felt they needed to step in.

Also on the comment of Plan A & Plan B. I mentioned this earlier about how sometimes just because an event is changed, does not mean another outcome is prevented. I still think Plan B could of happened TBH.

I mean no disrespect towards you or your opinions, I hope you do not think otherwise

 

[VeljkoM]

Well yeah I also said not all blood or high elves went to Outland but just few. I was just saying that if it wasn't for those few that went to Outland and gained new power the rest wouldn't be saved...I'll stop now ^^;

Well Dragons were unwilling to step in for a long time and preferred to sleep, moan and what ever Nozdromu does. At this point Red Dragons were already in the Horde. It would still be 3 aspects who were handicapped against full powered aspect and this time no meddling human to destroy the Dragon Soul. And if all dragons went to war it would be Greens and Bronze (blues were not strong enough) against Red and Black. We are talking a full scale Dragon Wars. Though I suppose Dragons are scared since Orcs could enslave them like they did with red dragons (such is the power of Dragon soul). Also fun how Dragons didn't bother to get involved in Third War too when World Tree itself was in danger. Dragons are not responsible bunch.

But why would plan B happen that is what I ask. If Plan A was going almost perfectly why risk creating a different Scourge (perhaps instead of Ner'zhul picking Jaina the Lich Queen) and then have Plan A and Plan B kill each other while Night Elves remain safe. I mean sure it could happen but seems like it would be flawed move on legions part.

Not at all, not at all kind sir. I do enjoy little brainstorming. Don't let my posts scare you I merely bark.

 

[JCarrill0]

I can not say about Plan B since I do not think like demons do, But I guess why not have the best of Both worlds...

 

[VeljkoM]

Hmmm I was thinking because Scourge and Old Horde attacked each other in wc3 they would do it again but that doesn't mean it has to happen. Still on the other hand Old Horde did have Death Knights who are skilled in necromancy so no need for independent undead forces they could make their own. Unless Demons make plan C which isn't neither orc or undead.

 

[JCarrill0]

Hmmm I was thinking because Scourge and Old Horde attacked each other in wc3 they would do it again but that doesn't mean it has to happen. Still on the other hand Old Horde did have Death Knights who are skilled in necromancy so no need for independent undead forces they could make their own. Unless Demons make plan C which isn't neither orc or undead.

LOL good point, then of which I have no idea.!

 

[Dr Super Good]

They never could win seeing how they are Orcs. They were doomed to lose from the start.

 

[E.M.C]

They never could win seeing how they are Orcs. They were doomed to lose from the start.

Reported for racism.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Reported for racism.

Well if I ever meet a real Orc (not a Human who thinks he is one) then I will change my attitude towards them entirely. Until then I do not think it offends many people to be racist against a piece of fiction.

 

[VeljkoM]

Must be boring to be that serious.

Still consider what orcs consider victory. Killing everyone else.

 

[E.M.C]

Well if I ever meet a real Orc (not a Human who thinks he is one) then I will change my attitude towards them entirely. Until then I do not think it offends many people to be racist against a piece of fiction.

That's pretty ignorant of you to say. I know for a fact that some Orcs out there are hiding, assimilated into society in fear of reprisal. They're among the nicest people I've ever met.

... anyway, as an old school Wc2 player, in my opinion, Human Alliance was very incompetent during the Second War. Horde was quick to accomplish pretty much anything they set their mind to, and they took the strategic Alliance points by storm. The only reason Alliance won is because Blizzard sucks (would probably be too "gritty" for an "evil" race to win the war). That's why I personally find the whole "Gul'dan takes one third of Horde with him in search of Sargeras' corpse" thing a bit too far fetched. I mean I know that he's a power hungry megalomaniac, but he was a pretty clever power hungry megalomaniac, and as such it would be much more sensible to wait until the Horde wins, so that he doesn't get owned by Doomhammer in the process.

Looking at the lore from the aspect of Orcish Victory is very exciting indeed. I agree with most points brought by Veljko. There is no reason for Kil'Jaeden to create the Lich King if the primary objective was already a great success. I imagine that it would be only a matter of time before they'd slaughter the rest of the high elves, and then proceed to summon Archimonde just like Arthas did. And from there, taking Kalimdor isn't that much of a difficult task.

I also detest the WoW lore a great deal, but that's a discussion for another topic.

 

[VeljkoM]

Regarding Gul'dan betrayal and sudden Alliance counter attack here are my two cents.

Actually it was best time for Gul'dan to betray Horde. If the Horde had won than Ogrim wouldn't send just Blacktooth grin clan, he would personally with might of entire Horde crush him. By choosing to take two clans right before the final invasion Gul'dan had hoped that Doomhammer would not be in position to stop him in time. Gul'dan's goal is clear, personal power, he never cared about the Horde. Unexpectedly Ogrim decided to send away part of his army as he feared Gul'dan would be serious danger. Gul'dan and Cho'gal died (except not), Stormreaver and Twilight Hammer were destroyed (good joke...) and Black Tooth was victorious.

And now we come to the turning point. A rather odd one when you think about. Alliance Nations were knee deep in their own blood and managed to stop the fatal attack because not whole Horde Army was there. Fair enough, one victory at last moment. But lets keep in mind that Alterac, Stromgarde, Dalaran and Khaz Modan were destroyed or not able to join the main Alliance Army which leads Lordearon and Quel'thalas who were both damaged, Kul Tiras and funny Gillneas who weren't even willing to send soldiers. Then they managed to push back from Lordearon to Dark Portal Horde armies like they were nothing. Problem is that even though humans won, both campaigns have canon events and false events. Siege of Lordearon is lore event so that would suggest that orcs campaign until that point was more or less correct which would suggest that terrible losses happened. It just seems that there were far more conflicts to reach Lordearon than there were to reach Dark Portal because Orc campaigns are all aimed at reaching Lordearon while Human campaigns spend great deal defending their territories and only last 3 missions are set in orc territories from before second war (well ok 2, Crestfall is an island and not main land).

 

[Dr Super Good]

The reason is Orcs are not well known for having much between the ears. They are formidable fighters with some powerful spiritual magic and allies but really that is all they have. Humans on the other hand are more crafty and better planners. Even though they might have been suffering massive losses they thought of something and turned the war in their favour, even if it was taking advantage of internal conflicts.

It is the same reason that humans survived scourge even though a large number of them died.

 

[VeljkoM]

The reason is Orcs are not well known for having much between the ears. They are formidable fighters with some powerful spiritual magic and allies but really that is all they have. Humans on the other hand are more crafty and better planners. Even though they might have been suffering massive losses they thought of something and turned the war in their favour, even if it was taking advantage of internal conflicts.

It is the same reason that humans survived scourge even though a large number of them died.

Warhammer orcs are the one who are stupid. Warcraft orcs are shown to have various intelligence levels from unintelligent peons to rather intelligent clan chieftains and mystics. Average human might be smarter than average orc but Horde Leaders are not stupid (Garrosh excluded but he is a great sin of WoW). Spiritual magic comment suggest lack of knowledge regarding topic. Orcs most definitely didn't have shamans in second war and instead used necromancy and fel magic. Also Human Kingdoms were not united properly as they allowed Stormwind first to fall before deciding to stop orcs, Alterac switched sides and Gillneas flat out refused to even send any military. And Alliance won because of Gul'dans betrayal but most importantly because they are good guys.

Also barely surviving is not really a victory and some like Scarlet Crusade are completely insane. And since Cataclysm most of the humans survivors were killed by Forsaken. There still mater of fact that out of 7 human kingdoms only 2 remain which shows that being "more crafty and better planners" doesn't help much if it was ever true.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Also barely surviving is not really a victory and some like Scarlet Crusade are completely insane. And since Cataclysm most of the humans survivors were killed by Forsaken. There still mater of fact that out of 7 human kingdoms only 2 remain which shows that being "more crafty and better planners" doesn't help much if it was ever true.

No that shows what trying to balance the races does. I mean considering the Orcs fled with a few boats and met nomadic Taurens their numbers would have been far less than any of the human survivors, especially since Ghrom managed to get half of them permanently corrupted by demons in WC3. Equally well the Night Elves are no longer immortal so should be running out of people by now. Like wise the Blood Elves were the few surviving people of the High Elves who number was no more than could be shown to evac in a Tower Defence. Let us not forget you play WoW as a hero who can keep dying and resurrecting himself!

That raises the big question why anyone ever dies in Warcraft seeing how you can just walk to your body / be resurrected at an alter and fight again. Games do not make sense and Warcraft makes even less sense.

At least Diablo has Hardcore, where death is permanent so the lore can be seen to make a tad more sense (playing softcore is not really cannon).

 

[VeljkoM]

Gameplay and story segregation, look it up.

-You can't actually consider that all orcs that left for Kalimdor realy fit in those few boats. They don't even represent all orcs in the first place just select group of liberated clans who were later boosted by more and more orcs joining their ranks since many clans remained in eastern kingdoms. In the end honestly there are more orcs than humans seeing that blizzard prefers them over humans.
-Night Elves loosing immortality means they now age but they still have long age span and they boosted their numbers by double with male population returning. Not to mention Highborn from Direm Maul returning and even more increasing population.
-Blood Elves are just ridiculous and prove that blizzard are not to be trusted with numbers. You are right about blood elves but not because of reasons you stated. TF mission only represented Blood Elves that were in Keals army and not literally whole Blood Elf race. Most blood Elves actually were still on Azeroth.
Conclusion = It is undeniable that lore has suffered a lot because of WoW status quo but still humans are in far worse situation than orcs. It is just one of million reasons I hate WoW.

Because game-mechanic is just in game that is why people can die (then again notice how everyone miraculous returns as a boss to be killed even if you have to destroy space and time to do it). WoW players don't exist in Warcraft Story. Bosses they kill are always in lore killed by someone else since "being killed by random group of terrorists" sounds out of place. Onixia for example was killed by King Anime-hair.

Do you also think that battlecruisers can be really shoot down by few marines with riffles?

Well of course Hardcore would be closer to canon, you can't have main character die in the middle of your story. Again gameplay and story are not same.

Also we drifted far far away from the topic. If you really want to discuss more about these topics send a PM.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Do you also think that battlecruisers can be really shoot down by few marines with riffles?

No they cannot because marines only do like 1-2 damage and are 2-3 shot by them if you research armor upgrade. They can however be totally and utterly obliterated by Kerrigan in 1 hit by casting Psionic Implosion (I swear she should be considered one of the most rigged bosses in a Blizzard game).

I have given up with Blizzard lore ever since they randomly decided to demote Archimonde from his WC3 form of being the ultimate demon lord to some random nobody warlock. Heroes of the Storm pretty much describes the current state of Blizzard lore, they should just merge everything together and be done with it as that way people would have more fun.

 

[JCarrill0]

so is this discussion about if horde won the second war, or something else now?

 

[VeljkoM]

Temporary went off topic. Still about Horde wining Second War. I just don't have anything new to say.