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Another SC2 question ?

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Level 17
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So I understand SC2 will be composed of three parts...Wings of Liberty, Heart of the Swarm and the protoss campaign which is under development. What I want to know is if I have only Heart of the Swarm let's say, will I be able to still create maps and play on battle net with players even though they have other parts ? Or do I need the whole pack ?
 
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I'm sure it acts the same way as SC&SCBW, War3 RoC and TFT... If you have HotS you will be able to play WoL with starting your WoL application but you cannot enter in HotS and play with people from WoL but you should still be able to chat with them in bnet (I think).
 
Pretty much as Eimtr said; like all other expansions Blizzard has made.

You need the lowest tier installed to upgrade to the higher tier, (1 to use 2, 1 and 2 to use 3).
You can chat with everyone from any expansion but you can only play with people from your expansion.

Though blizzard may let people play together cross-expansion if the map in question is compatible with both (bnet 2.0 ftw).
 
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Well ain't that stupid ? If I want only HotS I have to buy the first one too...

Oh and something else: My computer specs are: Amd Athlon Dual Core 4900+ at 2.4 GHZ, Nvidia GForce 9500 GT at 512 MB Dedicated Memory + 257 Shared Memory = 769 total video memory and only 1 GB of RAM. I'm just 1G of RAM away from Recommended Specs for SC2. Will I be able to play it smoothly if I lower the video quality a little let's say keep it on medium ?
 

Dr Super Good

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Blizzard has me skeptical about the details of SC2's "Expansions". Orignally they were saying each was standalone thus you could HotS without buying WoL. This is further backed up by the fact that the campaign data for HotS is completly new (they prommised to try and recycle as little as possible).

Thus I would not be suprized if HotS melee changes are ported to WoL when HotS is released allowing for full global melee competitivness but the campaign data is what the expansion is for. A map using HotS campaign dependiencies will not be playable in WoL unless you buy HotS as well. Like wise maps using WoL dependencies will be unplayable in HotS until you buy HotS.

This is atleast what I can make of it so far from what they said in the past. Ofcourse they might just be using their standard expansion approach now.
 

Dr Super Good

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I guess it does not mater to most people who will have all games in any case.

I just hope that accompanying the graphic enhancements of the expansion they reimpliment and perfect pointers and introduce some natives with a dynamic memory footprint (such as standard data structures like linked lists, dynamic arrays and maps).
 
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Hmmm. I have never felt the need to use pointers in any of my work, though I don't come from a development background that has ever done extensive work with pointers. You don't find Data Tables sufficient for your dynamic needs? Can you give an example of something pointers are needed for that we can't do already? I don't think they will be adding it this expansion.
 

Dr Super Good

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Can you give an example of something pointers are needed for that we can't do already?
Proper struct usage. For functons that take a dynamic struct (a struct per player or a struct per instance etc) you are forced to map all structs into a single array and then pass the integer index of the array as a form of pointer. If this struct needs instances allocated to a new system you need to eithor overallocate the struct array (resulting in wasted virtual machine memory which is already very limtied) or you need to sum all the required instances and manually increase the array size to fit requirements exactly (as there are no macros to keep count of where instances are needed and no way to dynamically allocate memory) which is very time consumming and error prone. Let us not mention the inefficincies this introduces as you need to resolve an array index instead of having a direct address to the struct in question. Most importantly this makes local structs completly usless as it is impossible to modify local structs via functions.

You don't find Data Tables sufficient for your dynamic needs?
Data tables are a global or local map of a string to a value. They are very useful for certain tasks but a lot of their usefullness is lost due to their limited scope settings (what if I want a system to have its own private map to avoid collisions?). String sufix/prefix are not a valid solution to scope as they add extra processing overhead. For non-map dynamic storage they are horriable as they require giving each reference a unique string which is extreemly demanding to generate compared to using an integer index.

If you want to create a list of references for dialog items (controls I think) and you do not know how many there will possible be you currently need to use the datatable to perform some sort of list. You can not store a struct using them so you are forced to map each component separatly. This means a 2 component string of <instance number> + <component name>. <instance number> is a converted int which also takes time and concatination requires allocation of new space to hold the string so also takes considerable time. To add an item to a linked list would need atleast 2 such strings with one for the previous node's link and one for the current node's value (assuming the lsit terminates at a lack of next entry existance). Removing would require the generation of atleast 3 such strings. This is a lot of strings for a task where no strings at all are needed.

A native implimentation could provide the same functionality and need no string generation at all. Adding would need arguments for the list instance and the balue to add. Removing the same. A dynamic array list implemention could allow for O(1) lookup times where that would need a 3 component string using the current mapping method.

I would really like to see...
1. Map (like current Data Tables system but takes an instance reference instead of a local/global boolean).
2. Dynamic array (also instanced).

Some others would be nice for convenience and efficiency but emulation via the above is satisfactory.
3. Llinked list (more meory efficient and more reliable add times).
4. Queue
5. Stack
6. AVL Binary tree
7. Piority queue

Combined with pointers, a greater efficiency would be obtainable.
 
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Seems a lot of your concerns revolve around performance issues. I'm not convinced, with mods running on Batte.net servers, that effeciency is THAT important. I am under the impression that Blizzard prefers the stability of a pointerless development environment over one that favours performance with a greater potential to break clients. I don't see Blizzard worrying about these features untill there are modifications demanding enough and, even then, I see these changes as unlikely unless the modifications in question are their own.

Edit: One thing that you mentioned that I am looking forward to us being able to declare the size of arrays using constants instead of defining them explicitely through the editor's interface. Blizzard has mentioned they are looking on adding this feature. This will at least stop overallocation to an array of records, and do away with manual tweaking of the array size which is most definitely error prone.
 

Dr Super Good

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Seems a lot of your concerns revolve around performance issues.
And usability. Pointers would make structs extreemly useful unlike now where they are mostly usless. Dynamic structures would encourage library systems which are easier to use instead of eithor having to be very bloated or demand users have a technical understanding as to how they opperate.
 
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Thus I would not be suprized if HotS melee changes are ported to WoL when HotS is released allowing for full global melee competitivness but the campaign data is what the expansion is for. A map using HotS campaign dependiencies will not be playable in WoL unless you buy HotS as well. Like wise maps using WoL dependencies will be unplayable in HotS until you buy HotS.

How can you play melee when (as you said) it could act as a separate game allowing you to play HotS without expansion (though that doesnt make sense or that wouldn't be called 'expansion'). Even if you could play hots w/o WoL that further means it is like a separate game thus you cannot play Melee with people on WoL, wtf o_O

Demo version allows you to enter games and play with others having the full but it is still WoL both. I think if there is a demo for HotS it will be still so, but considering the vast changes it is not going to play Expansion and Non-Expansion in 1 game lol...
 

Dr Super Good

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The melee data files are separate from the campaign data files.

Thus what the melee mod structure could look like...
1. Default SC2 WoL melee.
2. Default HotS melee (replaces the current patch as all the current patches become v2.0 which is HotS).
3. HotS patches melee mod.

All WoL would need is to download these mods (very small as melee mods are) and you would have HotS melee. The campaign mods depend upon default melee so WoL would still use the default WoL melee mod but HotS would use the HotS default melee mod (patch version 2.0).

Ofcourse, this is if they keep to their orignal idea. If they go the expansion apprach this structure would probably only exist in HotS and WoL would be unchanged and unsupported.
 
If they go the expansion apprach this structure would probably only exist in HotS and WoL would be unchanged and unsupported.

IMO that sounds more logical, because what if people don't like HotS (not saying there's a reason to, but I knew quite a few people that would only play RoC instead of TFT).
Then WoL would be changed entirely and the WoL lovers would get screwed.
Then again they did that with WoW, so what the hell. It's more than possible.
 

Dr Super Good

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Why would you get Hots Melee Data for WoL? That makes no sense to have free access to Hots units frm WoL.. Blizzard would never do that, their idea is to buy the game thus whatever comes with HotS is exclusive for HotS users.
To not cause a tripple fragmentation of the community? Also it is only a few units that would be added (most of the units are in the campaign data). On top of this you restrict them from playing HotS melee maps and you have enough insentive.
 
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To not cause a tripple fragmentation of the community? Also it is only a few units that would be added (most of the units are in the campaign data). On top of this you restrict them from playing HotS melee maps and you have enough insentive.

Ideally yes.. but that's not how Blizzard works. There is a lot more tha few units that differ Hots from WoL you can think of them as two different games. graphics some changes.. cant be compatible to play w each other. Like RoC and TFT are, you just say hi to your lost 'bros' stuck in RoC. You will see how it goes.
 
Ideally yes.. but that's not how Blizzard works. There is a lot more tha few units that differ Hots from WoL you can think of them as two different games. graphics some changes.. cant be compatible to play w each other. Like RoC and TFT are, you just say hi to your lost 'bros' stuck in RoC. You will see how it goes.

Tell that to the WoW designers pl0x.
 
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