Apojii Islands v 1.04

WolfFarkas · Aug 12, 2018

Reserved

status: none

v 1.01

Vibe · Aug 12, 2018

Obviously this map shows us a pretty interesting idea - players need to consider more factors from neutral buildings and possible threats from the sea.
It is foreseeable that there will be many mercenaries, ships and airships.
Personally, I really appreciate this kind of map.

WolfFarkas · Aug 12, 2018

Vibe said:
Obviously this map shows us a pretty interesting idea - players need to consider more factors from neutral buildings and possible threats from the sea.
It is foreseeable that there will be many mercenaries, ships and airships.
Personally, I really appreciate this kind of map.

Thanks for your feedback!!

I played this map being Human against Orcs Insane. They expanded to both goldmines. They developed Taurens.
They don´t use the zeppelings and ships so is a lineal figth. But still they constantly attacked me and I resisted, it was somehow a tie until they got the taurens with the pulverize skill and +3 armor and attack.

As human I used dwarf riflemans, knigths and elfs spell- stealers.

I lost (Taurens against Knigths, bad idea) since I couldn´t support my army with aerials.

Of course this map will have more options for player vs player than player vs AI.

cleavinghammer · Aug 12, 2018

No waterfall over the edge of the world? Awww.

WolfFarkas · Aug 12, 2018

cleavinghammer said:
No waterfall over the edge of the world? Awww.

Hello there, mmm yes there is this a bit of waterfall for the edge of the world. But not all the waterfall.

The waterfall in the rigth down corner.

TheLordOfChaos201 · Aug 12, 2018

This map was tested by the Warcraft Spelling Checker which generated the following report.

Number of spelling errors: 7

Total Objects: 5

Number of Custom;

Items: 0

Abilities: 0

Units: 0

Doodads: 5

Destructibles: 0

Buffs: 0

Upgrades: 0

List of swear words detected: 0

Percentage of Flat land: 64.0%

Number of doodads loaded with map: 3221

Number of units/buildings loaded with map: 103

Imported files used: 0 of 0 files used

Estimated In Game loading time: 292.32 seconds

WolfFarkas · Aug 12, 2018

TheLordOfChaos201 said:
I tested the map with my spell checker and it generated the following report.

Number of spelling errors: 16 (Including 'np')

Total Objects: 8

Number of Custom:

Items: 0

Abilities: 0

Units: 0

Doodads: 0

Destructibles: 0

Buffs: 0

Upgrades: 0

List of swear words detected: 0

Flat land: 3.0%

Number of doodads loaded with map: 26

Number of units/buildings loaded with map: 21

Imported files used: 0 of 0 files used

Estemated In Game loading time: 4.2299999999999995 seconds

Hello there, if I may respond, using a spelling test in a melee map (is interesting) but unnecesary.

The spelling errors np, when I map I alter the doodads, np means no path, they are doodads with less size (0.5) and no pathing textures, so I choose if use a normal doodad or an np doodad.

In game doodads with different name won´t affect the game, you can´t click a doodad in game.

I hope this anwser will explain my point

Flat land 3.0%, mmm well water parts are flat, I imagine that 3% refers to the land only seems a low number I think.

well, thanks for your feedback.

see ya.

TheLordOfChaos201 · Aug 12, 2018

Ragnaros17 said:
Hello there, if I may respond, using a spelling test in a melee map (is interesting) but unnecesary.

The spelling errors np, when I map I alter the doodads, np means no path, they are doodads with less size (0.5) and no pathing textures, so I choose if use a normal doodad or an np doodad.

In game doodads with different name won´t affect the game, you can´t click a doodad in game.

I hope this anwser will explain my point

Flat land 3.0%, mmm well water parts are flat, I imagine that 3% refers to the land only seems a low number I think.

well, thanks for your feedback.

see ya.

It feels nice getting feed back. I see that reviewers tend to complain about or reject a map if it has a lot of flat land. Considering how little flat land your map has, I think you are in the clear

Spelling errors aren't really a problem, I think very few maps actually get rejected for poor spelling. There would only really be a problem if you had swear words of like 1000 spelling errors. You make a fine point however, that the spelling of 'np' was in a doodle no user would actually see. Perhaps I should make a work around for that.

Also could you confirm, your map has no custom content?

I find that odd... a few years back the hive rejected all maps with no custom content. I think its great if they are approving such maps now but I almost don't believe you map has no custom content. Is my program wrong in saying this?

WolfFarkas · Aug 12, 2018

TheLordOfChaos201 said:
It feels nice getting feed back. I see that reviewers tend to complain about or reject a map if it has a lot of flat land. Considering how little flat land your map has, I think you are in the clear

Spelling errors aren't really a problem, I think very few maps actually get rejected for poor spelling. There would only really be a problem if you had swear words of like 1000 spelling errors. You make a fine point however, that the spelling of 'np' was in a doodle no user would actually see. Perhaps I should make a work around for that.

Also could you confirm, your map has no custom content?

I find that odd... a few years back the hive rejected all maps with no custom content. I think its great if they are approving such maps now but I almost don't believe you map has no custom content. Is my program wrong in saying this?

Hi again.

My map doesnt have imported material, that mean if you check the import manager you won´t find nothing.

"No imported matierial has been used, only WC3 preset elements"

Can you Define "custom content"?

What I do is to copy paste the doodads and alter them to have the posibility to decorate more the map. Small doodads, or doodads with no pathing textures so I can put more and overlaping, or change the colors of the doodads like the blue cristals (I copy paste doodads from map to map to do it more fast).

All my maps have doodads changed, I also choose some doodads and put the category tilse set: all so I don´t have to look them in every tileset because is boring (and sometimes I don´t find it).

"I find that odd... a few years back the hive rejected all maps with no custom content."
Never heard of it, this is my 18th map, I have 17th melee maps approved, never had problems with the... doodads before.

I hope this answer your question about the custom content.

Daffa · Aug 13, 2018

TheLordOfChaos201 said:
I find that odd... a few years back the hive rejected all maps with no custom content. I think its great if they are approving such maps now but I almost don't believe you map has no custom content. Is my program wrong in saying this?

You missed the point that such things are not part of consideration to Melee maps. You need to understand the type of map you're reviewing before making such statement. Melee map has been approvable given their terrain has decency and balanced gameplay, despite the non-existence of custom contents, for years.

Knecht · Aug 13, 2018

Thanks to this map, I discovered yet another interesting aspect of boats - they can see over 1 level cliffs unlike normal units.

You want a review, you get a review. And this being a shipyard map should make it more interesting.

Art, terrain
I have no knowledge of the Golden Sun series, therefore I cannot judge whether you matched the theme outside from the the picture you posted. Imo, ashenvale grass would fit the lush green from the picture better but whatever. It's easy to decipher the author of the map thanks to the doodads used :cgrin:

as they are the same as in the Kraken map (the crystals in mid are also a reoccuring doodad). The 1x1 batches of grass feel random in some places. One common "mistake" I see in your maps (in terms of composition) is the absence of borders. While I was revamping Synergy by Filmting with SweetW3 we had to add borders otherwise it wouldn't have any chance of getting into the ladder. That is why there's always some mountains or forests or even water on the border. You can even see it when you turn on the camera borders. The aesthetic is more pleasing to the eye when things are not stuck to the border. However, you created borders in the corners. If you did the same all around the map, it would feel nicer imo. I really like the small ponds at the GMs though.

Balance
Lots of cliffs, chokepoints and weird creep camp placement. Cliffs are a powerful tool that easily creates imbalance. The middle can easily become a tower island, just like all the other islands as they don't have enough shallow water. The creep camps are all over the place if I might say so. The creep camps should be placed according to the heroes journey, he starts out weak and progressively gets to stronger units. It should have the flow in both creep progression and map progression. I'd blame the deceitful boats for this layout as you have focused way too much on them. The boats shouldn't ever be a necessity, just an option. This way we have a lot of dead ends and backtracking which both do no good in map flow. For example the troll camp behind the bridge is so far off I wouldn't even consider creeping it. If you were to put a way from the shallow water (from the mid) to the troll camp, it wouldn't feel as awkward and would greatly help the flow and add more possibilities to the player.
I'm not against the use of gold coins (or lumber) in maps, even others like mafe endorsed the idea. However, they should drop from a creep imo. They don't really offer much in this map, not in terms of action between the players. The first one to get the boats gets them both. Wrong, NE with warden gets them both. You don't even have to defeat the creeps, just buy a boat when you get your hero and quickly get to the coins. This is why I think there should be an ensnare creep at the shipyard in any map (as the ships start with 3 stock). Also, check your pathing with P (might help to turn off water). Due to the vision of the boats, you can access the market with your hero from the bottom shallow water (behind the market).

All in all, to use the ships well as a creator you must either have a great amount of knowledge of W3 map design or just luck (e.g. Thawing Snow :cgrin:

ridden with mistakes). They take from the flow and add little in return. They are either the star of the show or the forgotten gimmick in the background. I'd say you tried to put as many things on this little chunk of land. If it were 128x128 or even 96x128 it would work much better as it wouldn't be as "claustrophobic". But hey, it's a boat map :piru:

WolfFarkas · Aug 14, 2018

Knecht said:
Thanks to this map, I discovered yet another interesting aspect of boats - they can see over 1 level cliffs unlike normal units.

You want a review, you get a review. And this being a shipyard map should make it more interesting.

Art, terrain
I have no knowledge of the Golden Sun series, therefore I cannot judge whether you matched the theme outside from the the picture you posted. Imo, ashenvale grass would fit the lush green from the picture better but whatever. It's easy to decipher the author of the map thanks to the doodads used as they are the same as in the Kraken map (the crystals in mid are also a reoccuring doodad). The 1x1 batches of grass feel random in some places. One common "mistake" I see in your maps (in terms of composition) is the absence of borders. While I was revamping Synergy by Filmting with SweetW3 we had to add borders otherwise it wouldn't have any chance of getting into the ladder. That is why there's always some mountains or forests or even water on the border. You can even see it when you turn on the camera borders. The aesthetic is more pleasing to the eye when things are not stuck to the border. However, you created borders in the corners. If you did the same all around the map, it would feel nicer imo. I really like the small ponds at the GMs though.

Balance
Lots of cliffs, chokepoints and weird creep camp placement. Cliffs are a powerful tool that easily creates imbalance. The middle can easily become a tower island, just like all the other islands as they don't have enough shallow water. The creep camps are all over the place if I might say so. The creep camps should be placed according to the heroes journey, he starts out weak and progressively gets to stronger units. It should have the flow in both creep progression and map progression. I'd blame the deceitful boats for this layout as you have focused way too much on them. The boats shouldn't ever be a necessity, just an option. This way we have a lot of dead ends and backtracking which both do no good in map flow. For example the troll camp behind the bridge is so far off I wouldn't even consider creeping it. If you were to put a way from the shallow water (from the mid) to the troll camp, it wouldn't feel as awkward and would greatly help the flow and add more possibilities to the player.
I'm not against the use of gold coins (or lumber) in maps, even others like mafe endorsed the idea. However, they should drop from a creep imo. They don't really offer much in this map, not in terms of action between the players. The first one to get the boats gets them both. Wrong, NE with warden gets them both. You don't even have to defeat the creeps, just buy a boat when you get your hero and quickly get to the coins. This is why I think there should be an ensnare creep at the shipyard in any map (as the ships start with 3 stock). Also, check your pathing with P (might help to turn off water). Due to the vision of the boats, you can access the market with your hero from the bottom shallow water (behind the market).

All in all, to use the ships well as a creator you must either have a great amount of knowledge of W3 map design or just luck (e.g. Thawing Snow ridden with mistakes). They take from the flow and add little in return. They are either the star of the show or the forgotten gimmick in the background. I'd say you tried to put as many things on this little chunk of land. If it were 128x128 or even 96x128 it would work much better as it wouldn't be as "claustrophobic". But hey, it's a boat map

"For example the troll camp behind the bridge is so far off I wouldn't even consider creeping it."
One thing I can reply, cosider it creeping there is a very good amount of wood for the saw-goblin machine.

When I played this map, I creep that camp to put a lumber mill (human race) to have more wood.

yep, decided to abort the treasure island thing (forgot the warden skill, I tend to play with orcs and humans than the other to races, and when I am NE, I never develop the teleport skill of the warden.

edit

"This way we have a lot of dead ends and backtracking which both do no good in map flow."
Dead ends helps to avoid agro. Dead ends may be not nice, but agro is very bad and it may be considered a bug.

agree with the rest. (sugestion try to separate the lines in items 1) 2) 3) , more easy to read, more easy to respond),

thank you a lot for the review.

"But hey, it's a boat map :piru:

"

Again thanks, I will take it as you liked my try.

mafe · Aug 15, 2018

My short review of the map: I'm not a big fan of boats. But for this map layout, I think they are ok. Of course, you said it is an experimental map and I think this is perfectly valid and has achieved its goal. There are a few things I would do differently/check if I was going for a more ladder-map design:
-Many dead ends (unless you buy boats/zeppelins): I will at some point write about this in more detail in my guide at some point, for I just summarize the idea as "wherever you army is, it should have at least 2, better 3 directions where it could go and do something useful". This isnt the case here unless you buy boats. So as this actually provides an incentive to buy boats, it could be ok.
-Too many cliffs for my liking. This can lead to stand-off situation, which one can like or dislike (like me). I would replave sum cliffs with ordinary raised terrain.
-AoW creeping options look not very attractive.
-No real ways to get a fast lvl2 without taking risks (as human, you dont want to creep the sea giants with militia due to pulverize).
-Buggy unpathable tile near top shop.
-If you buy a merc from the eastern sunken ruins merc camp, can it spawn on the low ground in certain situations?
-Not a fan of bright/green doodads near expansions as I think it looks weird if undeads expand there.

Good stuff: Terrain looks nice, items and creeps are good.

WolfFarkas · Aug 15, 2018

-"Too many cliffs for my liking. This can lead to stand-off situation, which one can like or dislike (like me). I would replave sum cliffs with ordinary raised terrain".
I learned from Orange that he didn´t like one cliff level of the map because there was no scout limit for farms and wisps. Cliff is very complicated someones doesn´t like it (do to towers exploit) and others think is a must to refrain scouting. And others like some terrain exploit.

-"No real ways to get a fast lvl2 without taking risks (as human, you dont want to creep the sea giants with militia due to pulverize)". Will change that creep for an easy one.
-"Buggy unpathable tile near top shop". Will check that.
-If you buy a merc from the eastern sunken ruins merc camp, can it spawn on the low ground in certain situations? will check that

Also I am going to delete the green creep far away from bases.

Well I will start focusing to fix this ones.

thanks for the reviews!

edit:

Version 1.02
- Deleted sunken ruins merc camps.
- Deleted goblin labs
- Added unbuildable terrain to avoid tower exploit near tavern area.
- Changed creeps to help creeping.

Vibe · Aug 16, 2018

I'm glad to know that you have updated the map.

There are many new details. so I guess you really love small doodads stacking.
Especially under the sea, I noticed those stones and Coral reef.That's so cool and creative.

--Maybe there are too many waterfalls in the lower right corner, which may not seem reasonable.
There should be a better way to make the edge of the world look normal.

--Please pay attention to the position of creep.
Creep will be supported if it has other creep in its 600 range.
My hero angered Merc camps's guards, but he just wanted to challenge the little crab on the water side.

Once again, coral reefs are so cooool.

deepstrasz · Aug 16, 2018

For a map that requires you to use ships, it's too small.
Pathways are quite narrow even for a 1v1 map. There are places where you could just leave some towers and keep artillery units behind or ranged units. Might work for Warcraft II but III it might be annoyingly problematic.
Ultimately I guess the idea of the map is to finish the match as quick as possible using all means (boats included).
Each player has two mines of which one can be guarded by some towers since getting to it isn't too easy: by boat.

As @mafe wrote: it's pretty much experimental at this point but nevertheless can be a prototype for future better maps.

Approved.

Deleted member 247165 · Aug 17, 2018

I simply love all of your melee maps. Played them all. 5/5

WolfFarkas · Aug 18, 2018

Vibe said:
I'm glad to know that you have updated the map.

There are many new details. so I guess you really love small doodads stacking.
Especially under the sea, I noticed those stones and Coral reef.That's so cool and creative.

--Maybe there are too many waterfalls in the lower right corner, which may not seem reasonable.
There should be a better way to make the edge of the world look normal.

--Please pay attention to the position of creep.
Creep will be supported if it has other creep in its 600 range.
My hero angered Merc camps's guards, but he just wanted to challenge the little crab on the water side.

Once again, coral reefs are so cooool.

I have to fix, that, is not range, is creeps linked, I can fix that.

thanks for tell me.

edit: Fixed in 1.03 (tested)

Apojii Islands v 1.04

Apojii Islands (Map)

Deleted member 247165

Deleted member 247165

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