Whats Next General?

[Destroyer25]

Not sure where I should have posted this so I just posted it here.

Please refrain from going off topic and don't complain about the maps.

In this thread I will present you all with a battle situation and the 1st person to find a good solution to it wins. It will be mostly WW2 stuff but I may include, Medieval, WW1, and Post WW2. I will give you plenty of descriptive info and possibly pictures. Here is the 1st situation.

I think the mapa are pretty simple. (Map 2 shows the initial dispositions, CoA 1 has no map, map 3 is for CoA 2 and map 4 is for CoA 3) The blue lines=rivers, the big blue splatters are flooded areas/marshes(Which are impassible, you can attempt river crossing where there are no roads but it is very lengthy and dangerous operation, so stick to the roads). Black lines=Roads, black circles are towns/cities.

Now the set up.

You are Field Marshall (your name), commander of the 1st Panzer Group. Your Panzer group includes 2 Panzer Armies, which are made up of 4 Panzer Divisions and 2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions(Infantry on wheels, however these units have far less troops then a non mechanized infantry division.) You also have been given several Infantry Corps, on loan from out of sector armies, also the Powerful 1st SS Army has been ordered to cooperate with you.

This army is made up of 4 SS Infantry Divisions, which are pretty well mechanized, they have a large amount of transport, and in addition the 1st SS Army includes the 1st SS Panzer Division, one of the most formidible in the German Armed Forces, however it is understrength do to sustained combat. But despite that it is short on Tanks, its troops are seasoned Veterans, the best tankers of the Reich.

Be advised that this battle is fictional, however the time period is Mid 1943. You have Tigers, Panthers, Stugs, and your Panzer IVs all have long barreled, high velocity 75mm guns. Also you have various SPGs, and TDs(Mainly Marders). You also had numerous Panzer IIIs, however most of them are Ausf Ns, and therefor have short barreled, low velocity 75mm gun, these tanks do jhave decent armor though, about 70mm, making them ideal for infantry support.

Also, in this perticular battle there will be no air, as that makes things far more complex and aircraft isn't where my knoledge is strongest.

Your enemy, is the Red Army.

Your Soviet enemies have various tanks, Mainly T-34/76s, which are very good but are out gunned by the Tiger. Also the enemy has KV1s and KV2s, which are incredibly slow but have thick armor, also the enrmy posses many obselete BT-7s, and many SU-76 SPGs.

As you can see your enemy does outnumber you, however. (-) This, indicates that they are under strength.

As for the infantry. The Russian infantry still are nowhere near as well trained or equiped as you are. But American trucks have arrived and the enemy infantry is Semi-Moterized. While all of your forces, with the exception of the 4 infantry corps, are fully motorized.

Now for the Mission.

The OKH has ordered you to destroy as many enemy forces in your sector as possible, and you also must capture the main enemy city(The Big one, duhh).

Seeing how the map is so large and you have so many units, I have developed 3 COAs for which you can choose, or you can try and make up your own. The choice is yours.

COA 1, Redeployment. In this COA your 4 infantry corps will withdraw to the Stalin River, as shown on the Map. Your 2 Panzer Armies then withdraw and group up with the 1st SS Army, together your 3 armies attack the Russian 4th Army.

This plan does concentrate your strength more but it also leaves your 4 corps to defend your right flank alone. Strong Russian attacks could break through, however the Russian 4th Army will surely crumble against 3 powerful armies. And this could affect the balance of power, seeing how it is the only Russian army that is up to full strength, the loss of this powerful army would seriously affect the Soviet's offensive capabilities.

COA 2, 2 Pronged offensive. In this COA the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th corps will hold the the current river line while the 1st corps supported by the 2 Panzer Armies will attack the isolated 13th Infantry Division, this unit is a veteran unit, and is well equiped with transport and artillery but it is standing alone. You will smash this tiny division, then the 11st Panzer Army, will attack North-West and assault the Russian 4th Army in the rear, which will already be engaged with the 1st SS. Meanwhile the 1st Panzer army and the 1st Infantry Corps will move North-East, and attack the Russian 1st Army, these 2 units will then fortify their positions, preventing the Russian units to the south from escaping northwards.

This plan could work, since like the first COA it consentrates your fighting power against the 4th and 1st Armies. However, again, like the first COA, it leaves your right lightly defended. And strong Russian attacks could cut off your supply line, and completely encircle your 2 Panzer Armies. A loss like that would end the war immediatly. (See map 3 please)

And finally COA 3, 3 Pronged offensive. In this COA you will a launch a massive offensive all along your front. The 1st SS will crush the 4th Army, and then link up with the 1st Inantry Corps to destroy the Russian 17th Tank corps. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Corps, and the 1st and 11th Panzer Armies will cross the river and smash the Russian armies, they will move incredibly fast and incircle the Russians before they can even get moving. T

The Russians are not guarding the river line, so chances are they will be incircled before they even know that you are attacking. This is a bold plan, however it does mean that if your attacks get bogged down, all of your other units will be unavailable to help. (See map 4 please)

It is 20:00 hours and Alfred Jodl, the OKW Chief of Operations has ordered that you launch your offensive at 0700 hours. Your are at your Army Group HQ with your subordinate commanders, and the commander of the 1st SS Army asks,
"Whats Next General?"

 

[Destroyer25]

Look, stop fucking complaining. If all you guys are going to do is be little bitch princesses who cant do a little reading then don't post at all

 

[TheDivineBoss]

Forum game thing? It's not like I can't understand you, I'm just not motivated to read it.

Give me a real map and few rules and objectives and I would be off.

Jeez, Hearts of Iron 3 is easier and more readable than this.

(In my scenario, I was outnumbered by the Russians with 2:3 but the quality of my troops was 3:1.)

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

i choose option 4, engage in a pronged guerrilla warfare style. divide up your forces into a mobile sub groups, go around very widely, flank them and retreat. repeat. you got longer range which would allow you to screw them up without trouble. keep on harrassing them left right while a third groups closes in from the back and cut off the supply line. keep until you are pretty sure the russians are peeved or low on morale or just tire. them all out assaultstarting from the force which took the supply line and then the main force at the front followed by the two flankers

...i am just guessing. i dont really know
might as well say something related to the topic

 

[Destroyer25]

i choose option 4, engage in a pronged guerrilla warfare style. divide up your forces into a mobile sub groups, go around very widely, flank them and retreat. repeat. you got longer range which would allow you to screw them up without trouble. keep on harrassing them left right while a third groups closes in from the back and cut off the supply line. keep until you are pretty sure the russians are peeved or low on morale or just tire. them all out assaultstarting from the force which took the supply line and then the main force at the front followed by the two flankers

...i am just guessing. i dont really know
might as well say something related to the topic

Guerrilla warfare is not something that the German Wehrmacht does.

Also, I have posted this scenario at 2 other forums, they aren't complaining and the reason for that is they are more intelligent and mature. I can see nobody here knows anything about warfare, because at the other 2 forums I have solutions, not complaints, they understood everything fine.

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

well you know i did try to contribute to your discussion.

and yes i know they dont do guerrilla warfare. they do the blitz and barge in on other people. since your scenario didnt allow any air, stukas, i didnt say the charge in option. but you know you did say what I would do and i would choose the guerilla option.
your frontal assault methods mean heavy casualties on both sides. the russian troops are basically cannon fodders which can be wasted. you could wipe out a whole infantry division and if you lose one tank in the process, you are pretty much the loser of the battle. all you so far gave as options is one bloody assault with no tactics what so ever. the russians will basically rush you with their cheap-ass tanks and infatry and pretty much gang you before you see anything

if i was smart, i would starve the enemy, not waste my resources and soldiers. considering that the germans tactlessly frontal assaulted the russians, wasted all their resources during the winter, and that the russians weathered the winters, waited for the german soldiers to tire and their supply lines to thin, and in the end kicked the shit out of the nazis proves my point

and the reason we are acting like children is because maybe we are. 14-18 is our major age group and we are a group that plays warcraft, a medieval related game that relys more on unit management rather than tactics involving terrain, food etc

if you like other forums so much, go away. honestly

 

[Destroyer25]

well you know i did try to contribute to your discussion.

and yes i know they dont do guerrilla warfare. they do the blitz and barge in on other people. since your scenario didnt allow any air, stukas, i didnt say the charge in option. but you know you did say what I would do and i would choose the guerilla option.
your frontal assault methods mean heavy casualties on both sides. the russian troops are basically cannon fodders which can be wasted. you could wipe out a whole infantry division and if you lose one tank in the process, you are pretty much the loser of the battle. all you so far gave as options is one bloody assault with no tactics what so ever. the russians will basically rush you with their cheap-ass tanks and infatry and pretty much gang you before you see anything

if i was smart, i would starve the enemy, not waste my resources and soldiers. considering that the germans tactlessly frontal assaulted the russians, wasted all their resources during the winter, and that the russians weathered the winters, waited for the german soldiers to tire and their supply lines to thin, and in the end kicked the shit out of the nazis proves my point

and the reason we are acting like children is because maybe we are. 14-18 is our major age group and we are a group that plays warcraft, a medieval related game that relys more on unit management rather than tactics involving terrain, food etc

if you like other forums so much, go away. honestly

Your understanding of WW2 warfare is lacking my friend, German troops and Generals haven't a clue how to do guerrilla warfare, and guerrilla warfare will not accomplish your mission Pay close attention to what your orders are, and conducting guerrilla warfare wont accomplish that in 100 years.

 

[Coolty44]

You never acually said that Guerilla Warfare wasn't an acceptable battle plan.

I'm guessing you've posted this on forums either about WW2 or war game forums, were you would get people more educated in the underworkings of the German and Russain army's.

I think you also need more information in your OP. What type of weapons do you have? Whats the terrain like? Basic things that can really tip the scales of battle

 

[Destroyer25]

You never acually said that Guerilla Warfare wasn't an acceptable battle plan, so YOU fail.

I'm guessing you've posted this on forums either about WW2 or war game forums, were you would get people more educated in the underworkings of the German and Russain army's.

If you don't like the responses here, then just say "Oh, bad idea" and stop posting. We havn't taken tthis thread as a seriouse discussion becuase 1) You had horid formatting before you're edits. 2) You try to argue every post, I'm even betting posts that have a picture of a rabbit with a pancake on its head. 3) You rejected the only response becuase "it didn't fit the the fighting style of the Germans".

I think you also need more information in your OP. What type of weapons do you have? Whats the terrain like? Basic things that can really tip the scales of battle

I described all the equipment info, and if there were major terrain features(other than the rivers) I would have indicated it onthe map. Russia is extreemly flat(or atleast everything west of the Urals is). I apologize if you think there was a lack of info or the formating is bad. But I'm used to doing this with people that already are very knoledgeable on the subject.
So I apologize if you found it difficult, I was just doing things as I always have. I've never had an issue with this before, so when you all started complaining you can see why I might be upset.

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

my mission was to screw up the russians and then take the city
starving and breaking soldier morale i think would be a part of it

and saying that a flat terrain allows no other tactic other than all out assault, why did you even give us the question when you know it all

I described all the equipment info, and if there were major terrain features(other than the rivers) I would have indicated it onthe map. Russia is extreemly flat(or atleast everything west of the Urals is). I apologize if you think there was a lack of info or the formating is bad. But I'm used to doing this with people that already are very knoledgeable on the subject.
So I apologize if you found it difficult, I was just doing things as I always have. I've never had an issue with this before, so when you all started complaining you can see why I might be upset.

are these knowledgeable people WW2 veterans by any chance? WW2 veteran officers? WW2 generals? do you have a WW2 german tank driver right bside you? Or by knowledgeable did you mean textbook, gun/war otaku knowledgeable (aka : dont mean shit)
i might not be the smartest guy around here but most of the times when people seem knowledgable on the internet, they are usually talking shit. like i was moments ago and i have aknowledged that and it was for good fun. especially at gaming forums, where it is filled with people who are confusing calculated and controlled simulations with the real thing

its like a rich financial analyst trying to analyse the current world poverty using a graph. he doesnt know shit. all he can say is the cliches and the obvious such as "the current recession is leaving a lot of families hungry. if the economy does not improve, they will go on being hungry" and they put up ther serious face. duh! tell us something we dont know.

 

[Squiggy]

TL;DR -> don't spam - else ban

 

[Destroyer25]

my mission was to screw up the russians and then take the city
starving and breaking soldier morale i think would be a part of it

and saying that a flat terrain allows no other tactic other than all out assault, why did you even give us the question when you know it all



are these knowledgeable people WW2 veterans by any chance? WW2 veteran officers? WW2 generals? do you have a WW2 german tank driver right bside you? Or by knowledgeable did you mean textbook, gun/war otaku knowledgeable (aka : dont mean shit)
i might not be the smartest guy around here but most of the times when people seem knowledgable on the internet, they are usually talking shit. like i was moments ago and i have aknowledged that and it was for good fun. especially at gaming forums, where it is filled with people who are confusing calculated and controlled simulations with the real thing

its like a rich financial analyst trying to analyse the current world poverty using a graph. he doesnt know shit. all he can say is the cliches and the obvious such as "the current recession is leaving a lot of families hungry. if the economy does not improve, they will go on being hungry" and they put up ther serious face. duh! tell us something we dont know.

Would you care to explain to me in great detail the definition of Modern Mobile Warfare? Explain some tactics, and tell me what single battle was the foundation for the improvement of Modern Warfare? (AKA the begining of the change from trench warfare to Modern Mobile warfare). Can you do all that? Can you explain the tactical doctrines used by all the countries in WW2? Don't tell me I don't know shit, because I can do all of that. So don't go telling me that I dont know anything. I am a highly experienced wargamer, I've loved the history of warfare since I was 10, started playing with toy soldiers at 4.

 

[Hakeem]

It's sooo nice to go strolling through the forums and see a friendly debate about warfare tactics. Not a trace of spam or personal attacks to be found.

^_^

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Meh, nuke or carpet bombing. Possibly fuel air bombs.

No I did not read the whole thing.

 

[Pyritie]

I VOTE GEURILLAl

 

[Huurka]

Sorry, but what?

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

Would you care to explain to me in great detail the definition of Modern Mobile Warfare? Explain some tactics, and tell me what single battle was the foundation for the improvement of Modern Warfare? (AKA the begining of the change from trench warfare to Modern Mobile warfare). Can you do all that? Can you explain the tactical doctrines used by all the countries in WW2? Don't tell me I don't know shit, because I can do all of that. So don't go telling me that I dont know anything. I am a highly experienced wargamer, I've loved the history of warfare since I was 10, started playing with toy soldiers at 4.

i do believe its my turn to rebut so...
no. i would not care to explain the definition of modern warfare.
no. i would not explain the battle doctrines of the countries in ww2
you know why? cos i dont give a shit about those things

it seems that you have completely missed my previous argument

are these knowledgeable people WW2 veterans by any chance? WW2 veteran officers? WW2 generals? do you have a WW2 german tank driver right bside you? Or by knowledgeable did you mean textbook, gun/war otaku knowledgeable (aka : dont mean shit)

You replied to me...

...Don't tell me I don't know shit, because I can do all of that. So don't go telling me that I dont know anything. I am a highly experienced wargamer, I've loved the history of warfare since I was 10, started playing with toy soldiers at 4

i would like to emphasize the warGAMER part. Are you implying that you know everything about modern warfare because you play wargames? you know everything there is to know about war because you've read some textbooks? And are you, for all seriousness, comparing playing with toy soldiers with what really happens in real life battlefield?

...people who are confusing calculated and controlled simulations with the real thing

i do believe you just shot yourself in the foot

 

[Destroyer25]

You don't need battlefield experience to know a lot about modern warfare, how do you think Patton, Eisenhower, Bradley, Simpson, Hodges, etc learned this sort of thing. West Point. Lolwut? I have books made by West Point!? How did the Germans learn, well I believe there was a very good Officers school at Dresden that Rommel attended. Lolwut? I have books by the teachers at Dresden too? A soldier doesn't learn how to fire a rifle out on the battlefield, he is trained, and then gets better with experience. Same with generals, they are taught with books, and by WARGAMING. Yes, proffesional generals use wargaming. So don't look down at it. Now lets get back on topic, anyone want to take a crack at this?

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

when i said knowing about a battlefield, it meant nothing about terrain or calibre specifications or battle tactics like flanking. i meant do you know how a bullet in your stomach feels. i meant how it affects a squad of soldiers when one of their members have their head shot off. i meant what kind of effect it has to army morales when the enemy sticks the head of your fallen comrades on pikes and display them on their tanks

and yeah. the russian soldiers had professional training so thats how they fought the germans back. oh wait. no they didnt. they had crap loads of propaganda and the "not one step back" or " deserters get a bullet" or what the hell ever you call it doctrine.

 

[Destroyer25]

when i said knowing about a battlefield, it meant nothing about terrain or calibre specifications or battle tactics like flanking. i meant do you know how a bullet in your stomach feels. i meant how it affects a squad of soldiers when one of their members have their head shot off. i meant what kind of effect it has to army morales when the enemy sticks the head of your fallen comrades on pikes and display them on their tanks

and yeah. the russian soldiers had professional training so thats how they fought the germans back. oh wait. no they didnt. they had crap loads of propaganda and the "not one step back" or " deserters get a bullet" or what the hell ever you call it doctrine.

How is this relavent to the thread? If your not going to post a solution don't post at all, and learn some grammer. Even I am discusted, and I hate grammer Nazis.

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

the reason why it is relevant is because none of your wargames takes into account how war fucks up with people's mind. for instance if you have the highly trained veterans of war some how so spooked, they are shaking in fear in a puddle of their own urine against a highly motivated, propaganda intoxicated foot soldier, the foot soldier would proably win. applying this to your situation, the germans may be well trained but they might be on low overall morale while the russians may be full of confidence due to their high number.

and.. oh please. lets not play the grammar game. it only shows that your arguments lack backing.
or shall i anal retentively correct your reply, both your grammer and spelling? and follow your example to turn this thread into an english teaching thread?

 

[Destroyer25]

Wargaming can only be so realistic, if you want things to be so realistic then go to fucking Iraq. Otherwise stop complaining, its quite obvious you know nothing bout modern warfare and therefor are unable to participate in the game. So just go away.

 

[Coolty44]

All right then, Mr. High N' Mighty warlord, what would YOU do?

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

first you wanted to prove the realism of wargaming and the effectiveness of wargaming applied to real life situation and now you are saying i am being to complex and "too" real-life-like?

secondly...wars are planned by generals but fought by soldiers. if that is the case, then what could be more important, in any warfare, than the mind of a soldier. however, it seems you dont care about that bacause
a) you never thought of it
b) your thinking is not that deep enough
c) or because all your life, all you ever thought of a soldier was "just another plastic soldier"; permenent, precise and predictable in every single way.

now just because i care about the mind of a soldier, it make me ignorant in all aspects of modern warfare? i would say you are kidding yourself

lastly, but not the least important, after all this argument, all you could come up with was "go away"? tut tut tut. you greatly dissappoint me sir... i thought you would come up with something better than that. you being a strategist and all. i mean, i thought your previous argument was a simple retort or anger vent but two lacking arguments in a row? you could have at least made a gigantic list of all the grammar errors(even if i told you not to) i put in this thread(cos i see a few as i write this), or bombard me further with your knowledge of modern warfare. instead, you just chose to tell me to piss off. it would seem that you ran out of arguments and rebuttals, or of ammo if you wanna put it that way.

i shall go away now as you requested. you can count this as one of your "victory", as another kill mark on the side of your tank if you please. as for me, i see no further intellectual nor entertainment value in this discussion

 

[hawk_767]

If you all don't recall this thread got closed because of the fighting before. I'd advice it stops or it's just going to get closed down again.

Hey Destroyer do you think I could ask you to make a better map of the battlefield? I'd like to take part in this contest but it's hard when the map is kind of massed together and the description doesn't give that much explanation as to the land other than roads, marshes, and rivers.

 

[Pyramidhe@d]

all i originally wanted was an understandable explanation why, except for the fact that german army does not use guerilla warfare, my idea of guerilla warfare could not work

 

[hawk_767]

It shouldn't matter what they "used." In this game you should be your own general and your coming up with your own war plan and you should be able to use what ever strategy you want and see fit.

 

[Pyritie]

this is on the verge of getting closed again

 

[redscores]

Well, ok, I give you a strategy which would turn out, I am german by myself.

We always had the best tanks, in every war, I would say that we go for a direct fight, an assault, but not over clear terrain, like a 3-side war, and on 1 side the enemy, I am quite lazy to make now some movement tactics up to force a 3-side war, but we should use the higher range of our tanks to take the short-ranged infantry under fire, and let our infantry troups first be back, behind the tanks, so we force the enemy to use tankkiller weapons, but then the infantry division should be already done, just because of the superior range, if the first division fell, the infantry will march forward, the tanks will keep firing on further targets, so the infantry division can clear pretty much the "last few" enemies.

And you should get some better painting skills, no one can make a fucking war plan with those "paint" shizzles.

 

[Destroyer25]

If you all don't recall this thread got closed because of the fighting before. I'd advice it stops or it's just going to get closed down again.

Hey Destroyer do you think I could ask you to make a better map of the battlefield? I'd like to take part in this contest but it's hard when the map is kind of massed together and the description doesn't give that much explanation as to the land other than roads, marshes, and rivers.

I told you that the terrain is incredibly featureless, I suggest you do some reading on the Russian Steppe. Its flat. Western Russia is very very flat, tere are no major hills, the only terrain features are the rivers, the marshes and the roads, towns and cities.

And redscores, head on assault is not the solution. Sending tanks and infantry en mass at entrenched enemy forces is suicide. The enemy artillery and AT guns have just as good range as your tanks, and they are entrenched in gun pits. Your tanks are sitting out in the open shooting at a bunch of camoed AT guns and SPGs? Good luck with that, tactics is everything.

Your technological advantage isn't that big, and the fact that the enemy is in prepared positions makes up for that. Your just an arrogant German who thinks German equipment is always the best. This is only the case sometimes. German technological advantage was actually existant briefly during WW2. In 1939-41 Germany only had a technological advantage in the air, her tanks weren't very good. In the early stages of barbarossa Russia might have not had many T-34s but they were far superior to anything Germany had. And the German 88 would be the 2nd best AT gun when the 17 pounder came into service.

My point is German victories were chiefly accomplished by 3 things. Their superior tactical doctrine, their excellent generals, and the fact that they had excellent all arms coordination.

Don't be a lazy ass and put some effort into your plans, why should I even bother trying to improve my map if nobody will show me that they will put effort into their responces. The map is readable, and doesn't lack any details.

 

[Pyritie]

I told you that the terrain is incredibly featureless, I suggest you do some reading on the Russian Steppe. Its flat. Western Russia is very very flat, tere are no major hills, the only terrain features are the rivers, the marshes and the roads, towns and cities.

He's referring to your (lack of) MS Paint skills.

Don't be a lazy ass and put some effort into your plans, why should I even bother trying to improve my map if nobody will show me that they will put effort into their responces. The map is readable, and doesn't lack any details.

Quote of the day.

 

[Destroyer25]

I apologize for my paint skills, I've never done this online before. I normally draw maps and do it that way. Sadly I dont have a scanner so I couldn't use the maps I draw. Paint probably isn't the best program to be doing this with anyway, I'm sure theres something better.

Suggestions?

 

[Coolty44]

I told you that the terrain is incredibly featureless

Constant shelling from artillery says diffrent

Your technological advantage isn't that big, and the fact that the enemy is in prepared positions makes up for that.

Then why do many people agree that Germany had many technological advatages, they sat around and made weapons in the Depression

My point is German victories were chiefly accomplished by 3 things. Their superior tactical doctrine, their excellent generals

Germany was also allied with Russia, so they knew how the Russians fought.

I doubt a general could think up a battle plan, relay it to the squads, have a team scout the enemy positions, and then tell them if it has a good chance of working or not before the artillery starts to fly.

Don't be a lazy ass and put some effort into your plans, why should I even bother trying to improve my map if nobody will show me that they will put effort into their responces.

I still want to see your "battle plan"

 

[Destroyer25]

Did you know that Poland's Light 7TP tank was actually just as good as Germany's best tank of the time? In the France campaign Germany's tanks couldn't even puncture the frontal armor of France's tanks. Germany's so called technological advantage on the ground was non existant until the arrival of the Tiger and Panther. And constant shelling does not do much, sure it might make travel for armor a little be harder but thats it.

Germany was Russia's ally, so that means Germany knew all the details of Russian tactical doctrine? Russia's tactical doctrine changed drastically between the winter of 1939-40 and the summer of 1943(which is when this scenario takes place in). Also Generals make descions based on intellegence, and when they don't have for that they just have to choose solution which seems best.

My solution is CoA 2. It maximizes your armies capabilities to the fullest. 3 armies and 1 corps would cripple the Russian 30th Infantry. The Russian 4th army would be encircled incredibly easily, broken up into small pieces and destroyed piecemeal. With this army destroyed your forces would outnumber the enemy greatly. The 17th Tank Corps would have to fight 2 fronts or withdrawl, either way your army would be in an excellent position to advance and take the enemy's main city. Even if the enemy attacks your forces along the south flank, getting their armor across the river would be challenging. The Russians had little if not no experience in making large scale river crossings. While the Germans had a great deal of experience from crossing the rivers of the Netherlands, Belgium and France. The result of the battle would be having your 3 powerful armies in the north with the city secured. The Russians to the south would be cut off from their supply hub. GG Russians. CoA would surely fail because it gives up a great deal of territory, and wastes huge amounts of fuel too. CoA 3 is the worst, frontal assault against entrenched enemies is a recipe for disaster, just look at Kursk.

 

[Billy the Cat]

I apologize for my paint skills, I've never done this online before. I normally draw maps and do it that way. Sadly I dont have a scanner so I couldn't use the maps I draw. Paint probably isn't the best program to be doing this with anyway, I'm sure theres something better.

Suggestions?

GIMP could be a nice free drawing tool

 

[Destroyer25]

GIMP could be a nice free drawing tool

GIMP? Whats that?

 

[redscores]

Well, my post had a touch of irony and sarcasm inside.

You know, if someone is acting so elitist, that he goes to a wc3 forum and gives so complicated stuff, and wants to have serious answers, just to make himself feel better and intelligent, ...

Just get some real life.

My suggestion.

And if you want precise answers... give some more details, and a 100% perfect map, additional, your arguments are shit, what do you think we were talking about when we talked about german technological advance? maybe the tiger tank? which was the most produced tank in the 2nd world war????? maybe you understand now, and now, get out of here and join a military nerd forum.

Sorry for being harsh, but this is a bad joke, we are mappers, not military freaks.

 

[Destroyer25]

Well, my post had a touch of irony and sarcasm inside.

You know, if someone is acting so elitist, that he goes to a wc3 forum and gives so complicated stuff, and wants to have serious answers, just to make himself feel better and intelligent, ...

Just get some real life.

My suggestion.

And if you want precise answers... give some more details, and a 100% perfect map, additional, your arguments are shit, what do you think we were talking about when we talked about german technological advance? maybe the tiger tank? which was the most produced tank in the 2nd world war????? maybe you understand now, and now, get out of here and join a military nerd forum.

Sorry for being harsh, but this is a bad joke, we are mappers, not military freaks.

Your quite right, you know abseloutely nothing about the WW2.

maybe the tiger tank? which was the most produced tank in the 2nd world war

Very few Tigers were made in comparrison with the Number of Shermans,
T-34s, and Panzer IVs made. I'd say about 2000 Tigers Is were ever made, it could be even less. The Tiger was an excellent heavy tank but it had flaws, mainly its unrealiability.

 

[Billy the Cat]

GIMP? Whats that?

http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

 

[Ghost765]

why not wait for reinforcements, and keep shelling the russians in the city. or bring in one of those super-guns and blow the damn city up. After that, under cover of night, have some Fallshirmjaegers parachute/infilitrate into the city, sabotage enemy tanks and such, and when dawn comes, have the Tigers and Stug IV's lead the assault, and the ground troops would sweep the city, killing pockets of the remaining reds.

you're leaving us with very few choices, it seems as if you want us to go a limited number of ways that youve set up, which is rather boring.

how is knowledge modern warfare even relevant to WWII? Modern Warfare is now more tactically based, a stark contrast to the massed battles of WWII.

 

[Destroyer25]

why not wait for reinforcements, and keep shelling the russians in the city. or bring in one of those super-guns and blow the damn city up. After that, under cover of night, have some Fallshirmjaegers parachute/infilitrate into the city, sabotage enemy tanks and such, and when dawn comes, have the Tigers and Stug IV's lead the assault, and the ground troops would sweep the city, killing pockets of the remaining reds.

you're leaving us with very few choices, it seems as if you want us to go a limited number of ways that youve set up, which is rather boring.

how is knowledge modern warfare even relevant to WWII? Modern Warfare is now more tactically based, a stark contrast to the massed battles of WWII.

It appears you didn't read the operational orders. I believe I said you must attack immediately.

 

[Destroyer25]

Alright I have here something special. I made up this scenario last year. Its set in 1942, North Africa, its set in the Halfaya Pass-Capuzzo area. This is my favorite wargaming scenario, it took me and my friends and family 3 weeks, a lot of chalk, beer, pens and paper, to wargame it. We reviewed Rommel's, Neuman Silkow's, and Ravenstein's tactics, and the tactics of all the British commanders ranging from Brigade-Army. We finally settled on the most effective solution to counter the British attack. Lets see what you all think. Here is the situation.

You are Field Marshall Erwin Rommel, Commander of PGA(Panzer Gruppe Afrika), your command consists of the 21st Panzer Division(100 Tanks), the 15th Panzer Division(100 Tanks), the 90th Light Division(Mechanized Infantry, they are fully mobile, have AT guns, artillery and a Panzer Battalion(50 tanks) in support.), and several Italian units, however in this battle you only have Ariete, however it has been reinforced and has a great deal of equipment, some of it is German too(They have about 100 tanks, half are obselete, the other half are of some use, non are German).

In toal you have 350 tanks, but only 300 of are any real use, and 250 are German, you also have hundreds of AT guns, 37mm, 50mm, 75mm, 88mm and you also have 105mm artillery guns. Your tanks also have better guns than the British tank, and thicker armor for the most part.

PLEASE NOTE THAT PLANES ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THIS SCENARIO, AS CALCULATING THEIR EFFECT IS VERY DIFFICULT

Now the enemy force, consists of 5 Divisions under the command of Sir Allen Cunningham. These 5 Divisions are:
The 4th Indian, which has about 50 Matildas in support.
The 1st SA(South African), which also has about 50 Matildas in support.
The 2nd NZ(New Zealanders, who are excellent troops but are understrength and battle fatigued.) The NZers have about 20 M3 Lee/Grants in support.
The 150th Infantry(British), they have about 30 Misc Cruisers in support.
The 7th Armored Division(The Desert Rats, who are excellent troops but are a bit understrength in terms of tanks, they have 250, normally they would have around 300, organized into 3 brigades).

In total the British have 400 Tanks, but they are lacking AT guns, and very few of them are the new 6 pounders(57mm), so they mainly have 2 pounders(40mm), they also have 25 pounders(88mm) but these are technically artillery, and are very difficult to transport and lack good optical sights.

Now, the attack. As indicated in the map(See bottom of page). If you save the map then you can open it up in a larger size using paint.

The British are planning an attack, and your Intellegence officer has found out where and with what they plan to attack. Pay close attention, and you'll be able to see that all your divisions, with the exception of the 21st, are being directly attacked by 1.5 enemy divisons. So while you are out numbered, you do have the 21st in reserve.
Please make note that the arrows indicate the plan, not the actual enemy movements, this is what they plan on doing.

As you can see they plan to encircle the 90th Light Division, do not let this happen, the 90th contains veteran troops, for some reason this unit is simply excells in combat, when ever there is a challenge this unit will get it done. Don't under estimate its opponent though, the 2nd NZ is it's long time rival. Also you can see the 1st and 4th Divisions are attacking the Halfaya-Sollum-Qualala area, this sector is defended by the Italians. And the strongest enemy unit, the 7th Armored, is attacking your 15t Panzer in the Capuzzo-Musaid area.

Keep in mind classic Rommel tactics, make use of AT guns, all your Divisions have them.

Its a Saturday, and its 4:00AM you know the British plan on attacking at 8:00AM, you have 4 hours to radio your divisions and give them their orders.

So, Whats Next General?

 

[redscores]

Well... I think you should learn to read, and learn from your mistakes...

 

[Destroyer25]

Well... I think you should learn to read, and learn from your mistakes...

I don't care if you all cry about it being too long and complicated. I realize there are very few people on this forum that know anything about wargaming of Modern Mobile Warfare. I've posted this for the few people that do know something. I'll kindly ask you all not keep your petty complaints to yourself.

 

[PurplePoot]

How is this relavent to the thread? If your not going to post a solution don't post at all, and learn some grammer. Even I am discusted, and I hate grammer Nazis.

Oh my, did you really criticize someone's grammar with four spelling errors and several grammar errors in two sentences?

--

Plenty of excellent suggestions are being made here, but it seems that you are unable to look over your massive ego to take their good advice. Really, grow up.

 

[Coolty44]

I've always wanted to know why people think "hypothetical" war games like this have an outcome. In war, theres millions of variables that can kill a person/tank/whatever. To acually find out what happens, you'd need to acually do it, with things and training from the time it takes place. Even if I could hold oof until support arrived or whatever, who's to say how many mend I have left?

 

[Destroyer25]

Its just a game, sure there are variables, but this still gives people a pretty general idea of how things are going to work out. I suggest you quit critizing it, the generals of the 3rd Reich did this, and they are some of the best that ever lived. Theres a reason they used wargaming, its effective. So don't critize something that the greatest military minds that ever lived used. Now for gods sake, you all show how inmature you are by just posting this spam. I've asked you all a dozen times to just shut up if your not going to participate in the wargame.

 

[hawk_767]

I think it would be nice if Ralle and other mods would enforce being more on topic on this thread. Yes this forum is of WC3 modders and mappers but this is the "Off Topic" thread meaning it has little if nothing to do with WC3.

Anyways, on topic. I think, since as the Germans your attacking Russian controlled land that waiting or trying to cut off supply lines to force your enemy out of their footholds would be a bad idea as there could be Russian reinforcements moving in at any time.

To me the best way to handle this battle would be the German Blitzkrieg. This way you could move all of your forces in at once. With the armor that your packing you can easily pummel the enemy infantry and armor as you move into their territory. After I've been able to move my armor into the enemy lines I would then spread the armor into preset squads packing additional groups of infantry which would scout ahead.

The squads would fan further out to cover more of the enemy territory and continue forward to the enemy HQ. The basic idea is to perform a quick and effective assault but then using more advanced tactics and covering your enemy from all sides and slowly circling them out flanking and maneuvering them.


Here is another tip for when you post the battle situations. When you describe the battlefield, go into maybe a bit more detail? I'm sure a lot of people on this forum will be to lazy, including I, to research the terrain and really figure out a battle plan.

 

[Squiggy]

I'm sorry for not closing this thread until now.
I'll have a cleanup or even a deletion of this later

 

[Pyritie]

Just leave this as it is or RB it. Hakeem's already tried to clean it but that didn't really work.