The Dark Night (TDN) ORPG

[Hijax]

wait. you mean:
4 classes(mage, deathknight, cleric, warrior. am i missing something?)
10 spells per class.
= 40 spell icons(where did you ever get 120 from in the above calcualtion? 6*10=60 ya know)
=40*8kb
=320kb

+models for graphics and code(assuming the same size per spell that you used above)

just around 700 kb total.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

40 spell icons(where did you ever get 120 from in the above calcualtion? 6*10=60 ya know)

Your calculations are incomplete. You see, each icon set is composed of 2 icons - a BTN icon and a DISBTN icon. Thus it wouldn't be 40 icons, it would be 80 icons. Thus at least 640kb which is +- equal to 0.5 MB. A map can only support 5 MB max, yet this value is not realistic, a to be played on b.net a map should have a maximum of 3MB.

Anacron: it is doable and the solution is simple, don't import 120 icons.
Import won't make your project super nice, the game play, terrain and codes will.
Now, in my map I have many problems with imports as well. The solution? A standard. I made a standard for my heroes which is, each hero has 4 spells, and 2 of them can have imported icons. In your case each hero has 6 spells, 3 of them could be imported. You will lower the amount of imports by a major factor and you will still provide the player a new interface with exciting gameplay. Don't put too much emphasis on icon, they are not everything. The game has plenty of icons, you can, and SHOULD use some of them for the abilities.

IMO, a new system is more important than 0.5MB of imported icons. With 0.5MB you can make a lot of nice spells.

 

[Anachron]

A map can only support 5 MB max, yet this value is not realistic, a to be played on b.net a map should have a maximum of 3MB.

The maximum is 4mb, and actually 2mb is the normal size. Better maps are higher, and equal to 2,8 - 3,5 mb.

IMO, a new system is more important than 0.5MB of imported icons. With 0.5MB you can make a lot of nice spells.

I know. But actually I would like to have good icons and spells. And whats so wrong about having 6 good spells? I can change it later anyways.

Edit: Oh before I forget, 2 new screens:

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

The maximum is 4mb, and actually 2mb is the normal size. Better maps are higher, and equal to 2,8 - 3,5 mb.

I think it's 5... but that is not relevant xD

I know. But actually I would like to have good icons and spells.

If each hero only has 3 spells with imported icons (6 icons) you will be able to do that, and you will still save a lot of space.
When people start they don't pay attention to space in their maps, until it becomes critical, just like in my case. Don't under estimate the value of free space. It is one of those things people should take care in the start of a project and not in the end.

And what's so wrong about having 6 good spells?

You can have all awesome spells you want. An imported Icon doesn't make a spell awesome.

I can change it later anyways.

Major mistake. You won't change it later, you will struggle to try and find out what you can replace, what you can take away. In the it will be frustrating because you know removing it will make users unhappy. Trust me, unfortunately I was not careful with space when I started, and now CCFE is passing by this process.

Screenies: looks like a hall. If it is a place for a battle you may want to add some corpses, having in mind those are bandit guards holding the hall. Also, you could add a table with bear, or make a guard sleep, just to make it funny.
As for game play, it is a nice place for an embush. You can follow ROC campaign and make some statues come alive, or you can make a dying guard open another gate =P

 

[Campir]

Hell I didn't play WoW, and skills and spells are not from WoW. I will also have unique classes which I am hiding atm, because they are pretty much of additional feature, I will keep it a bit as secret.

I know that there are many ORPGs like this, so you might thing, where is the damn originality. Well I don't care that much about the originality, aslong as it makes fun. I create maps based on the gameplay, not on artwork and/or it is 100% original. That is nearly insane. As more original the game is, as longer it will take to create and as longer it will take to get a good gameplay. To come back to the main point, just wait a bit and try this map out. You will see its worth the shit.

Gameplay increases with originality not decreases. I also didn't mean to offend you, and didn't get across the fact I think your orpg is very high quality, and of course will have good gameplay, it's just its the same good gameplay you'll find in other orpgs. I'm also glad to see you have unique classes under wraps. Keep up the good work!

Excelent, so DeathKnight from the Undead ladder is a n idea that got stolen from WoW, even before it existed !!! SO NICE !!
I don't play WoW, when he talked a DeathKnight I assumed it would be a new regular class. The world doesn't live around WoW, so get over it.

And his map will be pretty good, if you think you know better orpg's then show them -> I bet they are all crappy GUI rpg's just like D3W.
Links will be enough.

I'm glad you took it in your liberty to flame someone else's orpg and use redundant arguments to show how smart you are.

I was talking from an orpg standpoint, WoW is the only orpg with the death-knight class as far as I'm aware.

I never claimed the world lived around WoW i merely tried to say to not use classes people associate directly with WoW, which he did.

Your attempt to passive aggressively flame me in defensive of someonelses orpg (someone who took the cc much more openly then you) was a failure.

 

[Anachron]

To Flame_Phoenix

I think it's 5... but that is not relevant xD

Its 4, I am 100% sure. Ever seen a map over 4096kb hosted in Battle.Net? No.

If each hero only has 3 spells with imported icons (6 icons) you will be able to do that, and you will still save a lot of space.
When people start they don't pay attention to space in their maps, until it becomes critical, just like in my case. Don't under estimate the value of free space. It is one of those things people should take care in the start of a project and not in the end.

Guess mixing the icons will make it look worse.

You can have all awesome spells you want. An imported Icon doesn't make a spell awesome.

But it make it look more professional. I am thinking about it.

Major mistake. You won't change it later, you will struggle to try and find out what you can replace, what you can take away. In the it will be frustrating because you know removing it will make users unhappy. Trust me, unfortunately I was not careful with space when I started, and now CCFE is passing by this process.

Hmm thats sad, but actually, I made my decision. 6 spells are pretty good enough for an OPEN RPG with 6 (atleast 'public') classes. I will more informations later.

Screenies: looks like a hall. If it is a place for a battle you may want to add some corpses, having in mind those are bandit guards holding the hall. Also, you could add a table with bear, or make a guard sleep, just to make it funny.

Yeah, its not done. As for now, how do you like the stairs and enviroment? I am gonna update it surely.

As for game play, it is a nice place for an embush. You can follow ROC campaign and make some statues come alive, or you can make a dying guard open another gate =P

Thanks, I already have good ideas in mind.

To Campir

Gameplay increases with originality not decreases. I also didn't mean to offend you, and didn't get across the fact I think your orpg is very high quality, and of course will have good gameplay, it's just its the same good gameplay you'll find in other orpgs. I'm also glad to see you have unique classes under wraps. Keep up the good work!

Well you got me wrong. I mean, as more you change it from Wc3, the more it will become unhandy for beginners.

I'm glad you took it in your liberty to flame someone else's orpg and use redundant arguments to show how smart you are.

Flame didn't want to flame anything, he just pointed out what hes not liking.

I was talking from an orpg standpoint, WoW is the only orpg with the death-knight class as far as I'm aware.

Who cares? xD Actually its a nice class and I'm quite sure it doesn't matter using base classes also, because people will know them and play them, because they are easier. My advanced classes will have more creativity, but are also harder to play, because nobody knows how to play them.

I never claimed the world lived around WoW i merely tried to say to not use classes people associate directly with WoW, which he did.

Why not? I mean that is my aim, using base classes each know how to play and creating unique ones. Is that that bad?

Your attempt to passive aggressively flame me in defensive of someonelses orpg (someone who took the cc much more openly then you) was a failure.

You don't know the background. We (I and Flame) agree to the statement that the Diablo III - Warcraft (Which is a ORPG as ours is) has a good Art quality, but the gameplay fucked up, because of bad coding.
Thanks for dicussing anyway.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

I'm glad you took it in your liberty to flame someone else's orpg and use redundant arguments to show how smart you are.

1 - saying the truth is not flaming. I only said it in a rude way, I admit that.
2 - the argument was not redundant, it was irony. Want me to link you to wiki?

I was talking from an orpg standpoint, WoW is the only orpg with the death-knight class as far as I'm aware.
I never claimed the world lived around WoW i merely tried to say to not use classes people associate directly with WoW, which he did.

Sp, because WoW has a DK class, eveytime you see one YOU associate it with WoW. As I said, that is how you see it, not the way I see it. IMHO a Dk class is original, I never played WoW and I don't intend to. By your logic Warhammer 40k is just a cheap copy of starcraft but with orcs... seriously, I can't say a DK class is not original just because 1 exists in WoW. Your argument would be relevant if the spells and the design were the same, but the class isn't even done yet. You simply can't say it is not original.

Your attempt to passive aggressively flame me in defensive of someonelses orpg

This is awesome, I always wanted to know how to passively be aggressive at the same time. I even thought these two words were contradictory, but who cares...

Its 4, I am 100% sure. Ever seen a map over 4096kb hosted in Battle.Net? No.

No because the map would be too big and people would refuse to dl it.... it is a matter of common sense.

Guess mixing the icons will make it look worse.

Not really. You see CCFE ? Take as an example the Bandit Lord or the Ranger. These 2 heroes only have 1 imported icon, and yet people love them. Why? Because their design and spells are good.
Now take as an example the Chaos Blademaster. All his icons (or most of them) are imported, yet no one plays that hero ... why? because he is a single killer in a world drived by armies...
You are acting like the super coder you showed me last day ...

 

[Anachron]

No because the map would be too big and people would refuse to dl it.... it is a matter of common sense.

You are not serious. I mean, if 5mb are the limit, atleast noobs would make 5mb maps. Btw: 4mb

Not really. You see CCFE ? Take as an example the Bandit Lord or the Ranger. These 2 heroes only have 1 imported icon, and yet people love them. Why? Because their design and spells are good.
Now take as an example the Chaos Blademaster. All his icons (or most of them) are imported, yet no one plays that hero ... why? because he is a single killer in a world drived by armies...
You are acting like the super coder you showed me last day ...

Well, its up to how the hero is made. I know. But good icons increase the effect of effective mapping.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

. Btw: 4mb

It is a link to a dota forum, therefore I refuse to see it xD
And yes, when I was a newb CCFE got 5MB .... which was stupid, because I couldn't even play the map in single player lol

Well, its up to how the hero is made.

This is my main central point ! =D
Good heroes don't need fancy pancy icons to make them look nice. This is one of the reason why Dota sucks, the heroes are weak and their spells suck, but they have imported icons.... and guess what, no one plays those heroes (just take a look at razor back per example or enigma...)

But good icons increase the effect of effective mapping.

I am not saying you shouldn't have them, I am just saying you can have them, but in limited amount.

Anyway, you got the point=P

 

[Anachron]

It is a link to a dota forum, therefore I refuse to see it xD
And yes, when I was a newb CCFE got 5MB .... which was stupid, because I couldn't even play the map in single player lol

Again, thats wrong. 4mb is only for Battle.Net the limit. Campaigns and singeplayermaps don't have a limit.

This is my main central point ! =D
Good heroes don't need fancy pancy icons to make them look nice. This is one of the reason why Dota sucks, the heroes are weak and their spells suck, but they have imported icons.... and guess what, no one plays those heroes (just take a look at razor back per example or enigma...)

To be honest, I like Enigma. DotA spells were easy becaues DotA is old, and the new heroes get more and more impressive coded spells. Beleave me or not, but DotA spells are atleast vJASS.

I am not saying you shouldn't have them, I am just saying you can have them, but in limited amount.

I know, and I think 6 spell icons each class is acceptable.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Again, thats wrong. 4mb is only for Battle.Net the limit. Campaigns and singeplayermaps don't have a limit.

Then it was surely a corrupted model or something like that ... we never know the claws of GUI xD

To be honest, I like Enigma. DotA spells were easy becaues DotA is old, and the new heroes get more and more impressive coded spells.

Sure, tell that to Kattana's and the return bug.
They have eye candy, that's it. You or I could make any Dota spell ...

I know, and I think 6 spell icons each class is acceptable.

As you wish...

 

[Zack1996]

They have eye candy, that's it. You or I could make any Dota spell ...

Although I don't want to drag DotA into this, but if you can find me 1 DotA spells with more eye candy than the spells we have on the hive, I'll give you a 100000 reps.
I do agree that anyone who is good enough at vJass could make a DotA spell, everything has limits, even vJass. What makes you think its possible to make things that are unmakable by others who use the same code? The difference is being the first.

I would have to side with DotA on this issue, Flame Phoenix. Because you seem to be out to hate everything related to it. Live with the fact that its popular, it won't kill you.

On-Topic: So all spell icons will be imported? That would make the filesize go up quite a lot. The new screenies don't show much :S. Any progress on the heroes and spells? Would love to see some screenies of those!
The terrain is pure awesome though! But I don't like how those two arches cross in the last screenie in your first post. Maybe make them cross somewhere in the middle

PS: How are your other maps (Storm Escape, Templar Arena) going? Are they dead?

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Although I don't want to drag DotA into this, but if you can find me 1 DotA spells with more eye candy than the spells we have on the hive, I'll give you a 100000 reps.

Are you serious? Just check my spells. Comparison? Compare them to ... Illuminate hero (with all special effects imported for eye candy) or the Zombie hero. Also, compare them to Void's Ultimate, or Queen of Pain, they all have imported models and FX for eye candy.
Check any of my spells, you will see they have less, or no eye candy at all. Why? because good spells don't need imports nor eye candy to be awesome, they need good codes and a good idea.

Because you seem to be out to hate everything related to it.

I don't hate maps related to Dota, what I hate is the fact that people are retarded enough to value a map that has no decent codes all and that is sick coding. I hate the fact people do not and can not evaluate quality.
I know plenty of AoS better than Dota, and they are not as popular as it ... I hate the fact things are not fair. That's all.
If one day, Dota become a decent map, then I will love, but until that day comes ....

So all spell icons will be imported? That would make the filesize go up quite a lot.

Not anymore. Anachron developed a special way of compressing icons that allows him to have icons with good quality but that are reduced by 80%. Meaning each icon will be 4 KB (2KB per file) instead of 16KB (8KB per file). This will increase free map size in a huge factor, I even think of doing the same to CCFE.

The new screenies don't show much :S. Any progress on the heroes and spells? Would love to see some screenies of those!

It is a WIP... but he has lot of ideas... perhaps 2 many I am afraid.

 

[Anachron]

So all spell icons will be imported? That would make the filesize go up quite a lot. The new screenies don't show much :S. Any progress on the heroes and spells? Would love to see some screenies of those!

I found a way to reduce the size of icons to 2kb without loosing much quality. In fact you won't see it ingame. So I can import alot of icons.

I have made far more as I posted here, but I developed the hidden classes more firstly, and sadly I will not show them at this stage. I want this to be secret, to make something unique.

As much as I can say now, they are pretty good balanced and will fit to the overall gameplay.

The terrain is pure awesome though! But I don't like how those two arches cross in the last screenie in your first post. Maybe make them cross somewhere in the middle

Thanks =) Yeah I guess I update them.. They are only fast WIPs.

PS: How are your other maps (Storm Escape, Templar Arena) going? Are they dead?

Sadly, Storm is dead. Don't know about Templar Arena, because I used the return bug there. Mhh..

Edit:

Not anymore. Anachron developed a special way of compressing icons that allows him to have icons with good quality but that are reduced by 80%. Meaning each icon will be 4 KB (2KB per file) instead of 16KB (8KB per file). This will increase free map size in a huge factor, I even think of doing the same to CCFE.

Depends on icon quality. I have had icons I compressed to 1,45kb, without loosing that much quality.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Sadly, Storm is dead. Don't know about Templar Arena, because I used the return bug there. Mhh..

Let this be a reminder of what happens when you don't listen to me.... I told you many times before using Kattana system was evil and deprecated, now you have the proof.
At last, my moment of glory: "I told you so."

 

[Anachron]

Let this be a reminder of what happens when you don't listen to me.... I told you many times before using Kattana system was evil and deprecated, now you have the proof.
At last, my moment of glory: "I told you so."

Yeah, you got right. Sadly, I should've listened earlier. But anyway, I learned my lesson, which is very good. I can't think about learning it harder as having to redo 9 hard spells at the best map I ever made just to release the public beta for testing purpose.

Edit: Update!
I imported Diablo III UI and tested the systems and Art the first time.
Enjoy!

 

[Campir]

the argument was not redundant, it was irony. Want me to link you to wiki?

Yes because wiki is the best place to look for web definitions.

Sp, because WoW has a DK class, eveytime you see one YOU associate it with WoW. As I said, that is how you see it, not the way I see it. IMHO a Dk class is original, I never played WoW and I don't intend to. By your logic Warhammer 40k is just a cheap copy of starcraft but with orcs... seriously, I can't say a DK class is not original just because 1 exists in WoW. Your argument would be relevant if the spells and the design were the same, but the class isn't even done yet. You simply can't say it is not original.

1) Of course you don't see it because you are one of the few gamers who don't play WoW. 11 million people (many of which stemmed from the wc3 community) play WoW, and will find the class a rip off. Unless he makes the class without using a rune system (which I assumed he would because he used rage for warrior) the class will be seen as a WoW ripoff. I am ot claiming WoW is an all consuming force I'm pointing out a mere fact that it is influential on how other orpgs get made.

2) I think I'm gonna use your crappy metaphor for sc and 40k to prove my point. Notice how 40k has 100% different and original races then sc? Even the human races in the games are completly controversal to the terrain team found in SC.THis is why each game has been able to make it's own community and grow on it's own. The deathknight class will be judged as a WoW class, and all though I'm not sure, I'm gonna prejudice that anarchons Deathknight may have similiar traits to the WoW one.

This is awesome, I always wanted to know how to passively be aggressive at the same time. I even thought these two words were contradictory, but who cares...

Passive agression is a means of behaviour in which feelings of agression are expressed in passive ways.

You can wiki that if you want

 

[Anachron]

Yes because wiki is the best place to look for web definitions.

Wiki is manipulated in a bad way. Search for anything against the USA, you will not find it, because USA has a group of People who remove the bad stuff of their goverment. Just for you to know.

1) Of course you don't see it because you are one of the few gamers who don't play WoW. 11 million people (many of which stemmed from the wc3 community) play WoW, and will find the class a rip off. Unless he makes the class without using a rune system (which I assumed he would because he used rage for warrior) the class will be seen as a WoW ripoff. I am ot claiming WoW is an all consuming force I'm pointing out a mere fact that it is influential on how other orpgs get made.

But whats so bad about joining the class in my map? I do my own classes and the base classes, meaning you can choose whether you know the class and can handle it or whether trying one of my classes. I see you want originality, you can get them from the other classes.

2) I think I'm gonna use your crappy metaphor for sc and 40k to prove my point. Notice how 40k has 100% different and original races then sc? Even the human races in the games are completly controversal to the terrain team found in SC.THis is why each game has been able to make it's own community and grow on it's own. The deathknight class will be judged as a WoW class, and all though I'm not sure, I'm gonna prejudice that anarchons Deathknight may have similiar traits to the WoW one.

Well whats so bad about it? I don't understand.

Passive agression is a means of behaviour in which feelings of agression are expressed in passive ways.

You just changed the order of words, lol.

You can wiki that if you want

I'm quite sure he won't.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Yes because wiki is the best place to look for web definitions.

See irony.

1) Of course you don't see it because you are one of the few gamers who don't play WoW. 11 million people (many of which stemmed from the wc3 community) play WoW, and will find the class a rip off. Unless he makes the class without using a rune system (which I assumed he would because he used rage for warrior) the class will be seen as a WoW ripoff. I am ot claiming WoW is an all consuming force I'm pointing out a mere fact that it is influential on how other orpgs get made.

You assume all wc3 players play WoW and therefore all wc3 players will find it a ripoff. I am the living proof such a theory is wrong. The DK is not even made... at least I understand why you believe SC is a ripoff wh40k....
We obviously share different points of view... better stop spamming this thread.

I'm quite sure he won't.

You are right =P

@screenie
The interface now looks great. You could however make the terrain look more like "Diablo III" I still think it would be awesome.
As for heroes and spells you already know what I think, but about the fountains you could make them like in D2:
- heal fountain
- mana fountain
- double damage fountain
- speed fountain
- experience fountain (would be awesome)

With your secret recipe idea, this would simple be great =D

And I think there are no more fountains left xD

 

[Campir]

Wiki is manipulated in a bad way. Search for anything against the USA, you will not find it, because USA has a group of People who remove the bad stuff of their goverment. Just for you to know.


But whats so bad about joining the class in my map? I do my own classes and the base classes, meaning you can choose whether you know the class and can handle it or whether trying one of my classes. I see you want originality, you can get them from the other classes.


Well whats so bad about it? I don't understand.



You just changed the order of words, lol.


I'm quite sure he won't.

Um, you failed to grasp the sarcasm in my post... Anyone with a 5th grade education knows wikipedia is one of the least credible sources of information on the internet (of course flame is the exception).

His metaphor was bad because it didnt fit in context with the WoW DK and your Dk issue. W40k and sc are completly diferent so his metaphor made no sense.I have no idea how flamephoenix got out of that post that i agreed w40k is a ripoff of sc...

Anyway in summary i think its dumb that your putting a class that 99% of players will find to be a WoW ripoff and thats all im gonna say.

 

[Flame_Phoenix]

Anyway in summary i think its dumb that your putting a class that 99% of players will find to be a WoW ripoff and thats all im gonna say.

In conclusion, I think you are dumb because you are the only guy here that thinks that implementing a DK is a WoW ripoff.