StarCraft II Editor too hard for you?

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Now, I've always understood WE, and after about an hour working on some terrain, I took a look into the data editor. To say the least, it's confusing.

One odd little thing I noticed, the unique models, like Raynor seem to be missing, or atleast hidden. This new editor makes me itch.

Set your dependencies to include campaign units.

 

[Dreadpap]

Seriously. Stop trolling the forums just for that. If Blizzard wants to make it hard for you to spam the internet with crappy maps, they do it. Just because the editor is hard to master, and is not what you call "Izzy Sheet", then don't attempt it at all. GE is INDEED better than WE, but please. Do not call it a "Shit editor". It does what we wanted it to do. If you want it to be more simple, then use World Editor.

End of the line. Read tutorials or don't even bother running GE.


To finalize this, what Blizzard intended to do, is avoid spam and failmaps on the Battle.net. Making it hard is one of the ways to stop those maps.

Umm thats a tiny bit harsh but yeah you are still right and imo its hard but with enough time it can be mastered For me atm i progress slower than with WE but there are much more opportunities with it and i rly wana learn it. I still gotta get that actor system

 

[Direfury]

Bah, they should have just kept it like WE, just with dropdown menus including those extra fields, allowing you to do general edits, evening out the extra info unless you go right into the extras and edit them manually. They also should have kept the palette thing, or atleast kept the hotkeys for it the same. Pathing, too, you just can't press P and see the blocked/allowed paths in whatever colors they appear in.

Right now, it's messy and intimidating.

 

[Statharas]

Bah, they should have just kept it like WE, just with dropdown menus including those extra fields, allowing you to do general edits, evening out the extra info unless you go right into the extras and edit them manually. They also should have kept the palette thing, or atleast kept the hotkeys for it the same. Pathing, too, you just can't press P and see the blocked/allowed paths in whatever colors they appear in.

Right now, it's messy and intimidating.

Yeh. Some parts are annoying. But seriously, I would NEVER change GE to WE.
DSG is helping me create a spawn system for my map. And it's not using triggers. At all.

The Data Editor is too powerful. If you can't grasp the power, you can lose conciousness just by using it.

Symptoms include Ragequiting, Rage, Urge to kill, diarhea, sickness, brain failure and loss of life by suicide. Consult your Dr Super Good before use.

 

[Mooglefrooglian]

A spawn system without triggers? Are you trying to make me cry?

Triggers are the perfect tool for something like that. The data editor seems to be trying to be something it's not, and becoming ridiculously complicated.

 

[mrzwach]

Uhh, using the data editor for things like abilities and effects is good. But something like a spawning system really should be done with triggers. Just because you can do something with the data editor doesn't mean you should :\

Also more drop down menus would be annoying as shit.

 

[kewlthis]

Uhh, using the data editor for things like abilities and effects is good. But something like a spawning system really should be done with triggers. Just because you can do something with the data editor doesn't mean you should :\

Also more drop down menus would be annoying as shit.

True. I always liked making triggers more than messing around with data. Sometimes it can be anoying that you have to do stuff with data editor that you could before do with triggers.

 

[Gilles]

I agree with previous posts. Making the data editor do things that triggers could do just fine is useless and over complicates the data editor. Which is one of my beefs with GE.

That and doing terrain is a pain in the ass.

 

[StormWarriors2]

I agree with previous posts. Making the data editor do things that triggers could do just fine is useless and over complicates the data editor. Which is one of my beefs with GE.

That and doing terrain is a pain in the ass.

Actually i'm fine with the Terraining Part. Its just i hate the water Tiles lol.

 

[Gilles]

Terrain is definitely better than before, but it's more of a pain to do imo, and they didn't include some features I was hoping for.

 

[Rispetto]

/Facedesk

This thread needs to die.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

/Facedesk

This thread needs to die.

Well, that came out of nowhere.

Why is it that discussing shit about the Galaxy Editor is such a horrible thing? I believe someone even mentioned that this shit should be "stickied". So go on. Tell me, what heinous acts has this thread committed?

 

[Adiktuz]

Advancement often comes with some difficulties. we just need to cope with it and learn how to use it properly, once you get the hang of it you'll probably like it...

anyway no one forces us to use the GE so if you find it hard then stop using it...

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Advancement often comes with some difficulties. we just need to cope with it and learn how to use it properly, once you get the hang of it you'll probably like it...

anyway no one forces us to use the GE so if you find it hard then stop using it...

No one forces you to play SC2 either. That doesn't mean it's not doing a good job if it's covered with pestilent razor blades.

 

[Prince.Zero]

i dont see what's what, i'm a professional at map making and galaxy editor is another blizzard fail . I don't like that you can trigger things the way you want to. Everything else is ok.

 

[mrzwach]

True. I always liked making triggers more than messing around with data. Sometimes it can be anoying that you have to do stuff with data editor that you could before do with triggers.

I like the way they have stuff done with the data editor better personally, but meh.

Also, I don't really like some of the things they screwed up in custom script, ie,

-no function pointers
-no GetLocalPlayer
-no hashtables
-2mb scripting limit
-no GetHandleID

There are other minor things, but those are the main issues. All of those were present in WC3's JASS too, which is pretty annoying. :\

 

[Orly_YaRly]

lets put it this way.

I thought WE was harder than SC1's editor when i first started.
now its the same effect with WE and SCII

but i don't think it's because it actually IS harder, it's just a different editor i need to get familiar with

This
Let's say you are a young child. You have a favourite toy - Robot. It have switch on his back which make him walk when its on. One day you broke your robot. You are very sad, but your parents buy you another one, which looks exactly same. But - instead of one switch it have control pad with many buttons. You don't know which one does what.
But - Does it means it's harder, or it's just different and you need to experience it?

 

[PurplePoot]

It's more like several switches instead of several buttons.

 

[Orly_YaRly]

It's more like several switches instead of several buttons.

Do you know control pad? On television? Does it have switches?
No nO and NO.

What am i trying to say is that Starcraft II editor isn't harder, it's just different.
We were making maps in WC3 editor for like 8 years, so GE seems hard for us.

 

[mrzwach]

That's a nice idealistic viewpoint, but unfortunately it is not true.

For example, take GUI and JASS/galaxy. Anyone who knows how to use galaxy will feel it is far superior (and easier) than GUI, but still, many people use GUI because scripting is hard to learn.

Also, the SC2 editor is definitely more complex and more difficult to learn than WC3's editor. In exchange, we get the ability to create more complex and more customized stuff.

 

[tagg1080]

Do you know control pad? On television? Does it have switches?
No nO and NO.

What am i trying to say is that Starcraft II editor isn't harder, it's just different.
We were making maps in WC3 editor for like 8 years, so GE seems hard for us.

I politely argue differently.

It is not "just different"

It is an unorganzied jumble of things, some of which are more complicated than they need to be.

If you want the Robot analogy:

-The first robot had 1 button, and it walked forward.
-The second robot can walk forward and backward, but it takes a 5 button sequence to do either.


So yes, GE can do more than WE, no one is arguing that.
Yes, GE will naturally be more complicated.
BUT!
We have had the tool long enough, that "oh, you guys are just noobs" doesn't work anymore. The tool is legitimately not user friendly, and many people have to spend much longer to do simple tasks than should be taken.


Blizzard made the tool, made the game, then took stuff out of the tool to make it less powerful.

They needed to clean it up better.

 

[RED BARON]

Seriously. Stop trolling the forums just for that. If Blizzard wants to make it hard for you to spam the internet with crappy maps, they do it. Just because the editor is hard to master, and is not what you call "Izzy Sheet", then don't attempt it at all. GE is INDEED better than WE, but please. Do not call it a "Shit editor". It does what we wanted it to do. If you want it to be more simple, then use World Editor.

End of the line. Read tutorials or don't even bother running GE.


To finalize this, what Blizzard intended to do, is avoid spam and failmaps on the Battle.net. Making it hard is one of the ways to stop those maps.

Agreed, though I get the notion why people are complaining since the original editor managed to allow even very complex things while at the same time remained simple. The new editor doesn't really succeed in that aspect, except when it comes to terrain. But damn I love it anyway.

 

[Callahan]

More captain obvious thread to be sure everyone agree and looking cool.

 

[Statharas]

I don't like that you can trigger things the way you want to. Everything else is ok.

Reverse Psychology ftw. You almost got me there.

Anyway, has anybody noticed that

YOU ARE ARGUING ON HOW THEY COULD IMPROVE THE GAME?

Improved editor, sure said blizz. If you're a blizz fan, you should always remember that they do stuff their own way. The Blizzard way.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Reverse Psychology ftw. You almost got me there.

Anyway, has anybody noticed that

YOU ARE ARGUING ON HOW THEY COULD IMPROVE THE GAME?

Improved editor, sure said blizz. If you're a blizz fan, you should always remember that they do stuff their own way. The Blizzard way.

Because Blizzard is an all-encompassing mastermind superpower and therefore any constructive criticism directed towards it is absolute heresy.

Are you seriously going in this direction?

"If you're a Nintendo fan, you should always remember that they do stuff their own way. The Nintendo way."
"If you're a James Cameron fan, you should always remember that they do stuff their own way. The James Cameron way."
"If you're a MacDonald's fan, you should always remember that they do stuff their own way. The MacDonald's way."
Ad nauseum
Ad nauseum
Ad nauseum.
Seriously.

Being "different" doesn't instantly absolve you of all your imperfections.

This
Let's say you are a young child. You have a favourite toy - Robot. It have switch on his back which make him walk when its on. One day you broke your robot. You are very sad, but your parents buy you another one, which looks exactly same. But - instead of one switch it have control pad with many buttons. You don't know which one does what.
But - Does it means it's harder, or it's just different and you need to experience it?

If you're suggesting that a single switch on the back of your robot is just as easy as an entire control pad with a multitude of buttons, then your ability to sympathize with other people is worse than I could have ever expected from this site.

 

[RED BARON]

If you're suggesting that a single switch on the back of your robot is just as easy as an entire control pad with a multitude of buttons, then your ability to sympathize with other people is worse than I could have ever expected from this site.

Unless of course that control pad was one of those child ones, with giant colored buttons with pictures of each effect it has. But then again, if the editor was like that (initially) then it would be easy to control it...

I still go for having a robot with obvious colored child buttons.. and then after you smash its head in, you'll discover a mystical net of wires and connections which will allow you to do things you never dreamed off.. like electrocuting that annoying brat that steals your toys.. Anyway point is: Make it not with the same functionality as the old one, but make it with the same initial simplicity.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Unless of course that control pad was one of those child ones, with giant colored buttons with pictures of each effect it has. But then again, if the editor was like that (initially) then it would be easy to control it...

I still go for having a robot with obvious colored child buttons.. and then after you smash its head in, you'll discover a mystical net of wires and connections which will allow you to do things you never dreamed off.. like electrocuting that annoying brat that steals your toys.. Anyway point is: Make it not with the same functionality as the old one, but make it with the same initial simplicity.

This.

People seem to be under the impression that it's impossible to have complexity and potential without sacrificing user-friendliness and intuitive controls. Short answer: It's not.

 

[Carth]

The one thing is, in WE you can do EVERYTHING that creators of game done in campaign or maps.
In GE you do unlimitly more.(Such as i spotted triggers for 2D cursor!)
For me actually, i prefer first one, because i want the game to be authentic.
If i wanted to do absolutely new game, i would like to have engine source, not the editor.
But i played warcraft, and however it changed on any custom map, it was still warcraft 3: with its own rules and gravity.
Here there are no limits.No limits so you just have nowhere to stand and fall in the void.

 

[RED BARON]

People seem to be under the impression that it's impossible to have complexity and potential without sacrificing user-friendliness and intuitive controls. Short answer: It's not.

Hehe, indeed. Good way to sum up my rather odd example

 

[Statharas]

I'll give you a hint. Galaxy Editor wasn't made for users originally. Like the World Editor. They were made so that Blizzard Employees would make their Units, and Campaigns. They did NOT make them for the public. They simply release that editor to the public.

Besides, now with Sc2, they will work more and more on GE. They are packing lots of changes, including mods, in the 1.1 patch.

 

[RED BARON]

I'll give you a hint. Galaxy Editor wasn't made for users originally. Like the World Editor. They were made so that Blizzard Employees would make their Units, and Campaigns. They did NOT make them for the public. They simply release that editor to the public.

Besides, now with Sc2, they will work more and more on GE. They are packing lots of changes, including mods, in the 1.1 patch.

Let me correct that a little.. true it wasn't made for users originally, but before they released the WE they did modify it.. don't go believing that GUI was what they used originally

And when WE was the first one, and had the principle of simplicity + complexity.. and made the wc3 way more popular then anticipated by Blizzard, so much that they made sure to talk a lot about the Editor for SC2 and give beta keys to modders so they could test it out. They sure as hell made a lot of stuff to the new editor just for the users.. but sadly it shows that they been thinking over it too much.. thats the whole problem. Anyway I do like what they've done to make new things possible, they just gave away some of the simplicity from the original one.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I'll give you a hint.

I'm assuming this is your attempt at sounding smug and that you don't actually think this is some kind of riddle.

Galaxy Editor wasn't made for users originally. Like the World Editor. They were made so that Blizzard Employees would make their Units, and Campaigns. They did NOT make them for the public. They simply release that editor to the public.

No. This logic is bad.

It doesn't matter what they originally made GE and WE for. The reality is that you, them, and plenty of other people know that they derive a large chunk of their revenue from their modding scene. Since Warcraft 3, they already know that their editor should be geared towards modders and potential modders.

Besides, now with Sc2, they will work more and more on GE. They are packing lots of changes, including mods, in the 1.1 patch.

No one said the editor isn't going to improve. No one said the editor didn't have tons of features. All we're saying is that if they want to improve their editor, this is the first step they should take.

Well, that and the bugs.

 

[lightning brigade]

Let me correct that a little.. true it wasn't made for users originally, but before they released the WE they did modify it.. don't go believing that GUI was what they used originally

And when WE was the first one, and had the principle of simplicity + complexity.. and made the wc3 way more popular then anticipated by Blizzard, so much that they made sure to talk a lot about the Editor for SC2 and give beta keys to modders so they could test it out. They sure as hell made a lot of stuff to the new editor just for the users.. but sadly it shows that they been thinking over it too much.. thats the whole problem. Anyway I do like what they've done to make new things possible, they just gave away some of the simplicity from the original one.

Although Stathis is getting a little arrogant, I think this is a logical fallacy...
They DID use GUI originally...I suppose the maps within the mpq were just there to throw people off. RED, I do admit the editor could be simpler, this is true, but I think the data editor being a giant techtree is the only hard part. It's similar to coding, where everything has to be mapped out. I've figured out a lot, but there's a lot I don't know. But there's always a S***storm every time a new editor is released, so I doubt blizzard will fix it.

 

[Statharas]

._.


I just figured out that this is REALLY off-topic............

Anybody wants to close this thread?

 

[Vestras]

in b4 lock

 

[Carth]

I just figured out that this is REALLY off-topic............

Pretty much on-topic to me.
Retired usenet moderator

 

[gmgo]

If I can add my two cents,

I think the editor could really use a simple change: the possibility to handle a unit and it's actors as a whole. That would make the data editor very easy to use, and add the option if someone wants to use it this way or the way it currently is.

Since every actor respond to one unit, there is really no point on having to multiply the labor of copying one single unit. I think this change would be an important first step to simplify the editor without loosing potential.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

There are plenty of nice, simple things to do that can make the editor exponentially more inviting. I know they're diametrically opposed to the concept of a manual, but the possibility's always there, and really, if they can't be bothered, why should we? Unit duplication should be by default as simple as it was in Warcraft III. Dependency is bugged and should naturally be adjusted. Data editor should at least give the option of a simpler format, like the GUI to the current editor's JASS. There are plenty of little things they can do to make the editor less horrifying and more of the gateway modding tool that it was before.

 

[Bags159]

I want a switch to give me a WE style unit editor. Like how you can do GUI or jass in WC3. I'm trying to make a TD and I don't need the unit editor to do anything super fancy. I could finish a tower in minutes with the WE. I've spent five days messing with the Data editor and I have:

1 fully functioning tower with proper animations, arts, and tooltips
3 functioning towers with weird / slightly wrong animations, arts, tooltips
1 tower that can't shoot because apparently it "Cannot face target"

Terrain / doodads works fine, though.

 

[Statharas]

THAT is why i made this thread. You can't stand the editor? Then don't use it. It's made to be hard, and for hardcore modders. If you can't do it, then don't.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Blizzard decided that with the so many forums, tutorials that exist over bnet, they do not need to create any manuals and mapmakers will learn it like their fingers. They are right this time. There is plenty of guides even here the ones explaining fields in the Data editor.

 

[RED BARON]

THAT is why i made this thread. You can't stand the editor? Then don't use it. It's made to be hard, and for hardcore modders. If you can't do it, then don't.

Thats a really bad argument.. Again the purpose of the editor for Blizzard is to get people to mod maps, thereby having people play them.. and therefor buy the game..

So why in the mother of God would they want to make it only for hardcore modders? They don't..

Anyway thats not really the thing or the problem with the editor.. Being a programmer myself, I can figure out how to use it.. but it really shouldn't be required to have knowledge of coding to use it.

That was the giant force for WE, that even a complete newb modder could make a map and encourage friends to play, then maybe make another and in the end become rather good at the editor.

Also allowed new users to make a map faster and thereby feel the satisfaction of a finished product faster.
Besides, at my college we are focusing a lot on how to create design so its the best as possible (which often means that the product will sell more), and the biggest focus there is user simplicity. That the user can instinctively understand the product and use it. Thats where the new editor fails and thats the sole complain about it.

I have absolutely nothing against the idea that one needs to be a hardcore modder to do some of the more advanced stuff in the editor, but doing basic things or making a simple TD (or edit units) should be way more simpler then it currently is.

Of course Blizzard always writes that the editor ain't supported by them, but heck they still updated it due to the massive use of it.

Btw: Do you think that so many forums would have appeared if WE had been like the new editor, so that only the really really dedicated people would create maps? I doubt it, though of course forums would have appeared.. but not that many.

Finally, its always bad to say that a program should only be used by pro's when it was made for all.. thats a fail.

Imtor: Tutorials and such is fine, but one should still be able to create the basics by pure trial and error.. which was way more possible in WE (though WE of course also had its share of bugs and underestimated stuff which one needed to know or learn from tutorials).

 

[Avex]

Blizzard just dared to make a blue thread where people will post their complaints to the Custom Map system.

It's lulz. (lemme find a link)

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/248107291

 

[RED BARON]

Hehe, goes to show how much Blizzard fucked up.. they have way over thought the whole custom content idea and doing that process they forgot the basics of custom: That it is custom...

Hell I don't get what Blizzard is thinking by limiting amount of maps to each account.. so a really good map create cant create more then 5? And I can't host it on LAN, even with Internet? I am actually not even sure it will be played since its not popular.. and I can't test it online or make beta tests.. I can't write realistic dialog or make interesting stories due to filters.. and no custom sounds or content.. How glorious.

Well whatever.. back to topic: Blizzard - put some good stomping bots on and take a walk into the nearest waterfall, then come out with a clear mind and fix those things.. You did it so well in the SC1 and Wc3 so why change it? Why not just improve upon it and keep what doesn't require improvement.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

THAT is why i made this thread. You can't stand the editor? Then don't use it. It's made to be hard, and for hardcore modders. If you can't do it, then don't.

Then here is my incredibly intelligent, on-topic reply:

No.

We're perfectly justified to complain about the editor. To say it's not for beginning modders is absolute bullshit, like I've been repeating for the past seven pages.

Stop repeating the same tired argument over and over again. Because then it convinces me that you have Alzheimers, and I have to repeat the same damn response to your argument, and then you ignore it and wait for another opportunity to try to cleanse this thread.

That is what this thread is about.

 

[Bags159]

THAT is why i made this thread. You can't stand the editor? Then don't use it. It's made to be hard, and for hardcore modders. If you can't do it, then don't.

Calm down kiddo. I've used it for about five days now. You seem quite mad, bro.

I'd like to see a link to Blizzard stating it's for "hardcore modders" only, though.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Blizzard just dared to make a blue thread where people will post their complaints to the Custom Map system.

It's lulz. (lemme find a link)

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/248107291

DSG was right it seems. US forum is read but EU forum can just die. I reported/asked the Blizz posters to delete some thread, seeing how they dont even moderate bad language, EU forums and server are just left alone.

 

[RED BARON]

DSG was right it seems. US forum is read but EU forum can just die. I reported/asked the Blizz posters to delete some thread, seeing how they dont even moderate bad language, EU forums and server are just left alone.

Interesting if that is true, then it will be another nail in the coffin for Blizzard and its online features (including support then).. wonder how Blizzard could screw up like this, when they really didn't have to make that many changes with everything already made and fully tested in the first games.

 

[TheFairfield]

I've been playing around with the Galaxy Editor for a while now, and from what I've seen while using it, I can assume that the whiners are only those who have short tempers and tried to do something to advanced for them from the start.
GUYS! Most people sucked at the World Editor when it first came out, but with time, we improved our skills, and look at some of the fantastic maps you see today!

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Interesting if that is true, then it will be another nail in the coffin for Blizzard and its online features (including support then).. wonder how Blizzard could screw up like this, when they really didn't have to make that many changes with everything already made and fully tested in the first games.

Blizzard follow neither EU/NA, they have a feedback thread and Im not sure they read it at all. The least, they have said they would limit their activity to minimum, so without contact from them, no one knows what is going on with their bnet or anything. Dialogue was very important thing nut they decided not, so no wonder ppl will rage. What I had to say, I said it in beta, in current blizz forums, here, so im pretty much done posting to any forums anywhere about that.