Legion TD Mega 3.5 (B4) + 3.41 unprotect

[mala_fatt]

after wave start, all fighters change owner to "East Legion" or "West Legion", so it not longer belong to player and you can't control it.

if player can control it, then someone will move fighter around and "kite" the creep for hours without leaked, while other player have to waiting for hours per wave.

What I have in mind is players do not control fighters when the level begins BUT it behaves according to orders given during the countdown..

 

[Gazelle]

I always use dps/cost & HP/cost ratio to decide if that unit is good or bad.


violet dps ratio = 100dps/230 gold = 0.43 => above average
Violet HP ratio = 850/230 x 0.1 = 0.37 ==> poor

usually :
0-0.35 = useless
0.35-0.4 = poor
0.4 = average
0.45 = good
0.5 = very good

for Mudman:
Hp ratio = very good
dps = poor/average
overall = good

for Oceana:
HP = poor/useless
Dps = very good
overall = good/above average

Yeah I came up with similar ratios without rly looking all units, mainly I'm trying to build as many unit as possible close to the 0.5 ratio for dmg and for hp about 0.45.

The problem is that theory and pratice will never be the same, I know mudman should be a rly good tank, a violet good dmger, ofc lower hp since its ranged and flying, and aqua also good overall.
I've done many testing in single player thanks to debug mode and element wtv how you build it is ok from 1-6, then super weak at lvl 7, then again fine at lvl 8 and then bad till the end lol. (by bad I mean lower than most races in average value, so to income)

Element has good armor for magic, and some good dmger for it too, yet it's rly bad at lvl 13, and I'm not even talking about 14, 15, 17... You can sometimes beat those lvl with req value, but if you always "have" to keep req value, then you cant income enough, then it makes this race much weaker than others.
The best way to play element would be to get about 7/4 for after lvl 10, then stop incoming to prevent leaks, if you push incoming more, you'll fail.
Or ofc switch race lol.

 

[Averlance]

Please change ur system of the mapname... unfortunately too much idiots in garena think that 3.41 (b5) is newest cause they dont have a clue what BETA means They refer someone on epicwar then (
Better name in future the endversion of a version x.xx (FINAL) instead of x.xx

 

[HuanAk]

What I have in mind is players do not control fighters when the level begins BUT it behaves according to orders given during the countdown..

all fighters will charge toward teleport pad after fight start.

so it doesn't what command you have, it will cancelled.

 

[HuanAk]

Please change ur system of the mapname... unfortunately too much idiots in garena think that 3.41 (b5) is newest cause they dont have a clue what BETA means They refer someone on epicwar then (
Better name in future the endversion of a version x.xx (FINAL) instead of x.xx

yes, I notice that too.

In future it will similar to: 3.49 for beta, and rename to 3.5 after released.

and beta will have shitty loading screen (like 3.3's loading screen)

 

[mightym8]

Could u pls adjust hybrid ?
Cause we got undead now. and meatwagon is 15 points under t3 unit costs.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

^And you can get Ghost tier 4 for 135, which costs 200...

 

[HuanAk]

Hybrid's cost is correct.

new race only changed average cost by 0.5-2 gold.

and I believe Hybrid is OP and should cost more than average, but it become less popular after Prophet.

 

[MastaKilla]

Don't nerf hybrid I do like 80% hp hybrid games I like it as it is.

-----

Yeah, and you can also get Phantom (+40) from tier 3. And we also have Harpy for 70 on t3. Like huan said, the average cost almost didn't change.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Hybrid not op at all because of 2 reasons:

1. Only one (extremely costly) change builder. This is rather stupid because hybrid isn't any easier to play than other builders.

2, You don't have control over the units you get. This is frustrating when you just need that appropriate unit to beat the next 1-2 level (e.g. backrow fast-firing pierce for level 7, 13, or melee tank for 14, or siege for 17) whereas if you are a normal race, say goblin, you know you should build more turrets/blasters/backrow tanks for each situation above. Therefore, hybrid completely destroys the sense of game flow and makes smart play on attack/armor types impossible.

 

[Gazelle]

The only real tactic to play hybrid is to play with odds, but this can't garantee your success.

Hybrid is only op late game when you have alot of units of every types and get many auras.
Its indeed the race where you can get the most auras, but you need to be lucky enough to find them.

And to get to the point where you seems op, you need some king of luck early game to be able to make fine income.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Having a bit of everything makes you mediocre at best. Those dragons you random can really poop on the Lords of Death/Neotanks you random. As of the buffs? you usually get 5+ useless low tier units before you finally random a captain or troll (example). That royal waste of gold is more than enough to cancel out the benefits of "having all the buffs in the world".

Having a collection of the strongest units and buffers (which normal races can achieve with 5 change builders) is way scarier. Hell, you still have a good chance to change into hybrid, if that's really what you want.

 

[mightym8]

@Phr33 the thing about ghost is adjusted. cause the cost is the mean of all of the t4 units. but meatwagon is 15 under average costs. we got 14 races (since merc, hybrid, prohpet exist in hybrid)
so (13*85+60)/14 is round about 83,2 and if you are as unlucky as me and get 2 meatwagon. you lost 3-4 gold which actually is a lot early game ..

 

[Gazelle]

Having a bit of everything makes you mediocre at best. Those dragons you random can really poop on the Lords of Death/Neotanks you random. As of the buffs? you usually get 5+ useless low tier units before you finally random a captain or troll (example). That royal waste of gold is more than enough to cancel out the benefits of "having all the buffs in the world".

Having a collection of the strongest units and buffers (which normal races can achieve with 5 change builders) is way scarier. Hell, you still have a good chance to change into hybrid, if that's really what you want.

As I said you have to play with odds, tier 3 has 2 auras, go for tier 4 to get more auras for your gold, I dont even try to find captain, I make about 2-3 tier 3 overall in a game, usualy get crap, if I even get 1 captain, then I stop doing tier 3.

I was actualy thinking the same about hybrid, which I dont play much. But the only time I went late game on a hp all hybrid game, I got half lucky, manage to get fine income, ended up with about 15k value at lvl 28. I had mostly hydras, some dragons alot of magic dmg. Thought we were gonna lose, yet I killed my wave with demon, and another 24 leaks from the 2 other players...
Dont think there's any better example than this to show how good hyrbid can be late game, it was just an average game.

 

[HuanAk]

Hybrid shouldn't have change builder (same as Prophet)

but I give them one change because they don't have re-roll.

and only pro can understand the power of Hybrid, all other will think hybrid suck.

 

[MastaKilla]

and only pro can understand the power of Hybrid, all other will think hybrid suck.

Thank you! 100% agree

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

As I said you have to play with odds, tier 3 has 2 auras, go for tier 4 to get more auras for your gold, I dont even try to find captain, I make about 2-3 tier 3 overall in a game, usualy get crap, if I even get 1 captain, then I stop doing tier 3.

I was actualy thinking the same about hybrid, which I dont play much. But the only time I went late game on a hp all hybrid game, I got half lucky, manage to get fine income, ended up with about 15k value at lvl 28. I had mostly hydras, some dragons alot of magic dmg. Thought we were gonna lose, yet I killed my wave with demon, and another 24 leaks from the 2 other players...
Dont think there's any better example than this to show how good hyrbid can be late game, it was just an average game.

Grats on your victory with hybrid, in an all hybrid game...
Whatever you could do there, you can do better with normal races +5 change builders.

Hybrid shouldn't have change builder (same as Prophet)

but I give them one change because they don't have re-roll.

Hybrid can only use cb once, while normal races have a roughly 50% chance to change into hybrid with 5 cb. The two sides are not equal.

only pro can understand the power of Hybrid, all other will think hybrid suck.

Instead of arguing against my points with reason, you make a useless statement unsupported by facts. "Oh well you're certainly not a pro so quit judging." zzz...

Once in a while I have been called a "pro" by people playing with me, though I never think of myself as one, as it is too vague a word to classify people into. However, no matter if I am truly a "pro" or not, I still came up with good arguments about hybrid's weaknesses.

 

[Gazelle]

The main problem is the cb mode, plz can you remove it from default mode? So people actualy have to type it for it to work.
Hybrid is the best race by far without cb mode, and an average race overall in cb mode, since it can get more auras than any other races, but you can't chose what tower you'll get, so many ranged will be in front etc.
I'm not saying its better than starting with a good race then change builder, but if you're lucky it can, if you're not it wont.

 

[HuanAk]

Hybrid can only use cb once, while normal races have a roughly 50% chance to change into hybrid with 5 cb. The two sides are not equal.



Instead of arguing against my points with reason, you make a useless statement unsupported by facts. "Oh well you're certainly not a pro so quit judging." zzz...

Once in a while I have been called a "pro" by people playing with me, though I never think of myself as one, as it is too vague a word to classify people into. However, no matter if I am truly a "pro" or not, I still came up with good arguments about hybrid's weaknesses.

phr33st00fpl0x, change builder have 10% chance. if you use it 5 time, still 10%... 1000 time still equal to 10% chance. this is pretty basic calculation for math/stats problem.

If you played 1x version long enough, you will know Hybrid is most powerful race in x1 version. same as 2.7's X3 version, Hybrid is really powerful.

I always though Hybrid suck because it is boring, but it is still most powerful race because it don't have any "weakness".

-----------

Gazelle, I agree CB is most unbalance mode, but I can't do much because people like them. CB, GG and X3 is main reason why Egze's X3 version become more popular than Lisk's X1 version.

remember the formula for my score system ? if you don't use change builder, you will get "bonus" score. once score become more and more important as a show off "number", good player will try not use them to show off their score.

in next version, I will remove "highest XXX is Player_XXX", and add first, second and third highest score.

after title system is add, people won't use CB to try for unlock all race

I think I will change the title system:
- player will *buy* 1 skill point per race unlock
- each skill point cost 10 gold (so they can't buy them at level 1)
- they can buy or upgrade "aura" with skill points (on builder)

eg, Command Aura:
level 1 = 1% damage aura
level 2 = 2% aura
..
level 10 = 10% aura

Regeneration Aura:
level 1 = 1hp/second aura
level 2 = 2hp/second
...
level 10 = 10hp/second

most aura should be stackable with fighter's aura.

 

[m05he_d4j4n]

in ap public games 7/8 players take pala and mass 2 lines priests ...

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

phr33st00fpl0x, change builder have 10% chance. if you use it 5 time, still 10%... 1000 time still equal to 10% chance. this is pretty basic calculation for math/stats problem.

My original statement is "normal races have a roughly 50% chance to change into hybrid with 5 cb".

And here's my calculation.

14 normal races + hybrid + prophet = 16 races in total.
Each CB gives you two random (different) races, therefore, the chance you get hybrid from a CB is 1/8.

The chance you get a hybrid from 5 change builders is:

(1- "the chance you don't get hybrid at all") *100%

(1-(1-1/8)^5) * 100% = 48.709 %.

 

[HuanAk]

It is 1/16 because you will never get 2 Hybrid at same time.

so you have 28% chance to get Hybrid after used "all 5 change builder". (still 6.25% chance if you use change builder once)

what is total cost for: "all 5 change builder" ?

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

It is 1/16 because you will never get 2 Hybrid at same time.

so you have 28% chance to get Hybrid after used "all 5 change builder". (still 6.25% chance if you use change builder once)

what is total cost for: "all 5 change builder" ?

No, it is not 1/16 because the 2nd option still has a chance to be hybrid if the first one fails. (1/15 chance for 2nd option to be hybrid)

Total chance to get hybrid in one cb:

(1-(1-1/16)*(1-1/15)) *100% = 12.5% (hey it's still 1/8 - -)

So the total chance is still 48.709 %.

Total cost for 5 change builders? 500g + 1500 lumber
Total cost for hybrid one single change builder? 200g + 500 lumber
Total cost for first 3 regular change builder? 150g + 500 lumber

 

[HuanAk]

you are so good at math, so player have 50% chance to get any race after used all 5 change builder.

Total cost for 5 change builders? 500g + 1500 lumber

500 gold + 1500 lumber is not cheap, with 50% chance to get a "powerful" race.

I don't know why you complaint about this, you should complaint about CB into Prophet, I always choose Prophet if it show up from changed builder, but rarely choose Hybrid.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

you are so good at math, so player have 50% chance to get any race after used all 5 change builder.



500 gold + 1500 lumber is not cheap, with 50% chance to get a "powerful" race.

I don't know why you complaint about this, you should complaint about CB into Prophet, I always choose Prophet if it show up from changed builder, but rarely choose Hybrid.

Ah-ha. I wasn't complaining about normal race's 5 cb's. I was complaining how hybrid has only one (costly) cb; remember?

Now that you say you rarely choose Hybrid in a cb, it proves my point that Hybrid isn't a superior race to the rest, and it too deserves 5 change builders.



About Prophet: it exists in cb to pwn all other options. Who wouldn't love to replace their 150/400 cb with 5 re-rolls? Well, I guess a real random fanatic would hold on to cb and hope he randoms a prophet on the last cb! lol.

 

[mightym8]

Hmm i dont know if the new bounty system is as good as u think.
Cause it forces newbies to leave if they leak. and then the teams are unbalanced. Cause if they fucked up once they won't probably come back.
If u would change it back to version 3.4 ppl that leak dont mess up the game so hard and u already have a disadvantage due to less bounty.

And yes they get fed and if the leaker leaves they have an advantage but mabye u can do something like dont giving them the level cap gold since the time he leaves and something else. But cutting off so much bounty is really ...

I think it is not fair that u have to play with a newbie and then also get more disadvantaged by having a hrad time killing his leaks and dont get anything from it later on

Edit: Is there a timelimitation for teleporting to the king's area ?
Cause i played with a mate and he was busy killing his mobs. at this time my leak passed the middle area.
as he finished his wave (my wave just arrived at king) and his mobs were heading towards teleportation area. They couldnt teleport at all. Then they ran back to their starting position (at this time the king was fighting with my leak). Suddenly they teleported from the current position (not in the teleport area) to the king. But somehow not all of his units.
And sometimes they just teleport withou any problem.

 

[Gazelle]

People switching race and getting prophet should have one more roll than the amount of change builder they had left.
But I think the price should still be low, since a re roll with prophet = 1 row of 6 randoms towers.
A change builder give 2 races, so possibility to choose from 2 times more towers than a re roll.
So mainly a cb is better than a re roll, so giving 1 free re roll + the amount of re roll equal to the amount of cb left seems fair.

I also think that you shouldn't get the same race 2 times in a row, so if you have beast, you cant get it on next re roll, but on the third one yes.
Like that the unlucky situation where you change builder twice, then on third change you get the same 2 races you had will happen less often.

This will make a cb even better but I suggest that you do this only when the score will have an actual impact on the game.
That way people wont change builder as often as before, it will balance the game. (if you're rly going to add title system, or skill points wtv you had in mind)

 

[Gazelle]

Funny how you also said Violet is weak because of its damage being spread apart.

Now what? The Warchief does 30/1.5*20%= 4 dps in a very small area, air units excluded. How is that any close to being "useful" past level 3, when one pulverize only hits 3 units instead of 20? At least the Violet can sit at backrow and do guranteed damage with its phoenix fire, the Warchief can't even land its hits well against ranged enemies, due to bad melee AI.

I just tried violets until lvl 31 to make sure what I was saying was right.
One more problem with violets, they do like some other air units, going in front of tanks when you have alot and dying rly fast. I tested them with many diff values on lates lvl, especialy 28 and they are very very weak!
I even compared with thunderbirds with similar value, thunderbirds were more effective.

Warchief is a fine tank for the cost, massing them as tanks on first line, if its the the only good tank I have with, lets say prophet, works pretty good.
1400 hp for 300 gold and fine dmg + a skill.
This scenario happened to me many times until lvl 28-31, didnt even needed to up them, focusing instead on ranged dmger and every game I was able to income alot and get a super strong defense for late lvls.

I can't even compare violet and warcheif as "usefull" units, violets are not part of the towers ill bother to build anymore.

Edit: Oh and for pulverize maybe you didnt noticed but on lvl 22+ creeps are pretty small its not only hiting 4 units. And I never said that's what was mainly killing creeps on late lvls but it add a significant dps to their dmg. You have to see your defense as a whole, I never said I was using warcheif to kill air units.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

I just tried violets until lvl 31 to make sure what I was saying was right.
One more problem with violets, they do like some other air units, going in front of tanks when you have alot and dying rly fast. I tested them with many diff values on lates lvl, especialy 28 and they are very very weak!
I even compared with thunderbirds with similar value, thunderbirds were more effective.

Warchief is a fine tank for the cost, massing them as tanks on first line, if its the the only good tank I have with, lets say prophet, works pretty good.
1400 hp for 300 gold and fine dmg + a skill.
This scenario happened to me many times until lvl 28-31, didnt even needed to up them, focusing instead on ranged dmger and every game I was able to income alot and get a super strong defense for late lvls.

I can't even compare violet and warcheif as "usefull" units, violets are not part of the towers ill bother to build anymore.

Edit: Oh and for pulverize maybe you didnt noticed but on lvl 22+ creeps are pretty small its not only hiting 4 units. And I never said that's what was mainly killing creeps on late lvls but it add a significant dps to their dmg. You have to see your defense as a whole, I never said I was using warcheif to kill air units.

I didn't say you are wrong about Violet. It was funny for you to mention Violet, because while you regard its 30 spread dps as useless (which I couldn't agree more, btw), you go ahead and say "pulverize is totally usefull after lv3!!!", ignoring the fact that pulverize adds a laughable 4 dps to a Warchief. Be it AoE or not, it is nonexistant after lv3. (well maybe also excluding 6 and 7.) After that it is pretty safe to say Warchief has no ability.

It works as a tank, I agree, but it no longer has a viable upgrade like Sea Giant or Moon Guard have.

 

[Gazelle]

I didn't say you are wrong about Violet. It was funny for you to mention Violet, because while you regard its 30 spread dps as useless (which I couldn't agree more, btw), you go ahead and say "pulverize is totally usefull after lv3!!!", ignoring the fact that pulverize adds a laughable 4 dps to a Warchief. Be it AoE or not, it is nonexistant after lv3. (well maybe also excluding 6 and 7.) After that it is pretty safe to say Warchief has no ability.

It works as a tank, I agree, but it no longer has a viable upgrade like Sea Giant or Moon Guard have.

On late game pulverize is less effective than early game, for the simple reason that with a big defense you force creeps to create a line.
But lets say you have 9 warchief, since they are melee and fight in a tight group they will at least hit 10 creeps at lvl 22+
Well then your warchief deal 4x9x10=360dps it is still better than many spell, ofc its not huge.

I think its still better than fan of knives, exept than its not hiting air.
As you said it's spread dmg but spread dmg works much better on high units, if violet had 950-1k hp it would be a much better unit.

I think I kinda explained it already though, the only reason I build warchief is when I pick orc or if its my main tank with prophet because there are many better tanks.
So I dont think we should argue anymore on that unit since it wont be modified anyway.

Yet for sea giant I'm puting him a bit in the same group as warchief, hydras are rly weak at lvl 28 and its the main lvl to be rdy in a game.
I like how stronger they are now but I dont mainly mass this unit anymore.
They will kill lvl 28 but you can't "overkill" the lvl with only those as main dmger.
They can still be very good tank for other good dmgers with 350+ range.

 

[MastaKilla]

Bug in 3.41:

Young Frost Dragon seems to have some weird issues killing a whelp Therefore check replay, teal player, Round 2.

He got 2 whelps, first died "normally". Second took it like 6 hits to die. Can't tell if thats an Whelp - Frost Dragon issue or an Mob at all - Frost Dragon issue

 

[MastaKilla]

Ah, and I want to file a complaint

Why exactly was it necessary to make harpy/poison not being able to kill units anymore? The 1hp stop _completely_ ruins this unit(s) in my opinion! Not quite sure, but is Wind Rider still able to kill with its poison?! I kinda have that feeling, but cant tell for sure right now.

--------------

And a second, well complaint/thought.
Level 3 is really tough now with all the very fast normal attack and medium armor! It's like quite often that I am able to build first wisp during round 3 or after 2 and risk a (big) leak in 3. But I somehow could live with that. But that leads to the biggest problem I encounter right now. As the bounty on 3 is so high and so hard nowadays, ppl will ragequit A LOT more, if they leak kinda hard on 3 as it's so much money they lose. This makes it more and more to a pro only game.

--------------

While I was writing all this I got interested in the overall average leaver rate and did some caluclations... (where player left voluntarily and gameduration - leavetime of player is > 120 seconds; beta maps aren't considered as they've never been on autohost and it's only a handful of games anyway)
The result is:
23.02% leaver rate for 3.41 (totally 7172 games hosted)
16.91% leaver rate for v3.4 (totally 8491 games hosted)
21.03% leaver rate for 3.3 (totally 31019 games hosted)

Of course, round 3 may not (only) be responsible for the rapid increase of 6% from last version, especially where 3.4 was too easy on several rounds, but still.. 23%.. thats almost 2 player leave every game.

But this statistic doesn't say that much and so I tried to see leave rate on early rounds. (Just tested it, I left right after I finished round 3 without any leaks in 1 or 2, which totally took me 329 seconds. Lets say if ppl slighty leak in round 1 and round 2 a dino or whelp or something, the overall time to reach end of round 3 might increase by ~60 seconds and as ppl also leave before a round is over we might subtract a little bit... 30 seconds.)
So the following leave rate is for people with leaving time between 300 and 400 seconds of gameplay, who left voluntarily and where gameduration - leavetime of player is > 120 seconds.
The result is:
4.17% leaver rate for 3.41 (totally 7172 games hosted)
0.55% leaver rate for v3.4 (totally 8491 games hosted)
1.16% leaver rate for 3.3 (totally 31019 games hosted)

Thats a huge increase. ~8 times more than on v3.4 and ~4 times more than on 3.3.

And don't get me wrong here, I don't wanna blame you or force you to change anything. The interest on those stats just crossed my mind and I thought you might be interested... If you need any more data, please let me know.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

But lets say you have 9 warchief, since they are melee and fight in a tight group they will at least hit 10 creeps at lvl 22+
Well then your warchief deal 4x9x10=360dps it is still better than many spell, ofc its not huge.

I think its still better than fan of knives, exept than its not hiting air.
As you said it's spread dmg but spread dmg works much better on high units, if violet had 950-1k hp it would be a much better unit.

I think I kinda explained it already though, the only reason I build warchief is when I pick orc or if its my main tank with prophet because there are many better tanks.
So I dont think we should argue anymore on that unit since it wont be modified anyway.

Yet for sea giant I'm puting him a bit in the same group as warchief, hydras are rly weak at lvl 28 and its the main lvl to be rdy in a game.
I like how stronger they are now but I dont mainly mass this unit anymore.
They will kill lvl 28 but you can't "overkill" the lvl with only those as main dmger.
They can still be very good tank for other good dmgers with 350+ range.

10 units per pulverize is overexaggerating even at 22. The only case where that happens is if a warchief is completely surrounded, which means instant death. As incomers we don't worry about melee levels between 22 and 27 anyways.

I just ran a debug game. It seems warchiefs do a lot better than moon guards against these levels (also surprisingly well in 24), but it is because of collision size. Seems like warchiefs don't have any collision size

Hydras are good dps/tank before 20 (really weak on 18 though. If you mass it you gonna die on that xD), just a good tank after 20. The dps is pretty meh.

For 29, I assume you will be upgrading your frontrow warchiefs to thralls.

 

[Gazelle]

Ah, and I want to file a complaint

Why exactly was it necessary to make harpy/poison not being able to kill units anymore? The 1hp stop _completely_ ruins this unit(s) in my opinion! Not quite sure, but is Wind Rider still able to kill with its poison?! I kinda have that feeling, but cant tell for sure right now.

--------------

And a second, well complaint/thought.
Level 3 is really tough now with all the very fast normal attack and medium armor! It's like quite often that I am able to build first wisp during round 3 or after 2 and risk a (big) leak in 3. But I somehow could live with that. But that leads to the biggest problem I encounter right now. As the bounty on 3 is so high and so hard nowadays, ppl will ragequit A LOT more, if they leak kinda hard on 3 as it's so much money they lose. This makes it more and more to a pro only game.

--------------

Poison on sky rider dont kill either last time I checked, and I agree that this is a stupid change.
Reason I think that: simply because late game poison will only be used to slow and dmg creeps, not to kill them since they have high hp.
This mean that this change only makes an already weak unit at start, even weaker.
Why? that I dont know lol.

Another thing is bothering me, I guess HuanAk had alot of complains about nightmare, which was already good, to switch his armor type.
Mainly nightmare is actualy weaker on lvls he should be strong like lvl 14, 15, 17 and strong on lvl where he shouldn't be strong, lvl 4, 13, 16 etc.
This was a change to help noobs who couldn't play shadow. (Only see this change justified for lvl 7 actualy)

But then I would like to understand why are units like gnoll still light armored?
And how about making all melee/low range light armor units unarmored while were at it, like protons, phantoms etc.

For lvl 3 I agree it lead to more leaving, and that's sad because making it harder at start is quite interresting.
I noticed though that some units like Nightsaber can't kill lvl 3 anymore, maybe barely with 0 worker trained.

10 units per pulverize is overexaggerating even at 22. The only case where that happens is if a warchief is completely surrounded, which means instant death. As incomers we don't worry about melee levels between 22 and 27 anyways.

I just ran a debug game. It seems warchiefs do a lot better than moon guards against these levels (also surprisingly well in 24), but it is because of collision size. Seems like warchiefs don't have any collision size

Hydras are good dps/tank before 20 (really weak on 18 though. If you mass it you gonna die on that xD), just a good tank after 20. The dps is pretty meh.

Yeah that's what I meant about warchief, just tested too lol, they are rly small so creeps actualy do make a circle around a group of about 5 warchiefs.
Ofc from lvl 22 they die fast but my focus isnt on those tanks anymore.
For lvl 24, 9 warcheif is 2700 gold, any heavy armor tanks get eaten rly fast that lvl but 2700 value on the 9k+ I usualy have, is not much.
This mean I have over 6k value spent on ranged and auras to kill lvl 24.
Also dont forget that at lvl 31 you just need barely enough tanks to hold 31 and the rest ranged, if you make too many tanks it goes to waste at that lvl.
Since usualy your team will make already enough tanks and not enough ranged lol.

I also saw someone who made for about 2 full lanes of warchief, never actualy tried it in a real game but with their size it was surprisingly working good.

For lvl 29 it depends, if we past lvl 28, this mean we will probably go till 31, so I prefer upgrading ranged than thralls, that's just my way of playing maybe its not the best.

 

[HuanAk]

Ah, and I want to file a complaint

Why exactly was it necessary to make harpy/poison not being able to kill units anymore? The 1hp stop _completely_ ruins this unit(s) in my opinion! Not quite sure, but is Wind Rider still able to kill with its poison?! I kinda have that feeling, but cant tell for sure right now.

Because any corpse will removed after 1 seconds, so any poison take longer than 1 seconds may not give gold.

eg, if fighter's corpse is removed before creep killed by poison, then game can't identify who kill it.

So all poison can't kill anymore after "corpse will removed after 1 seconds"

--------------

And a second, well complaint/thought.
Level 3 is really tough now with all the very fast normal attack and medium armor! It's like quite often that I am able to build first wisp during round 3 or after 2 and risk a (big) leak in 3. But I somehow could live with that. But that leads to the biggest problem I encounter right now. As the bounty on 3 is so high and so hard nowadays, ppl will ragequit A LOT more, if they leak kinda hard on 3 as it's so much money they lose. This makes it more and more to a pro only game.

--------------

yes, I don't really like 3.41 about :
- Making wave harder (level 3, 7, 17)
- Remove income cap (as well as lower bonus gold)

but bounty have to lower if want to remove income cap. in 3.3 it is very hard to get 20k value due to 0 bonus gold for high income.

but 20k is so common after 3.4 after income cap removed. and game is so much harder for new player.

While I was writing all this I got interested in the overall average leaver rate and did some caluclations... (where player left voluntarily and gameduration - leavetime of player is > 120 seconds; beta maps aren't considered as they've never been on autohost and it's only a handful of games anyway)
The result is:
23.02% leaver rate for 3.41 (totally 7172 games hosted)
16.91% leaver rate for v3.4 (totally 8491 games hosted)
21.03% leaver rate for 3.3 (totally 31019 games hosted)

Of course, round 3 may not (only) be responsible for the rapid increase of 6% from last version, especially where 3.4 was too easy on several rounds, but still.. 23%.. thats almost 2 player leave every game.

But this statistic doesn't say that much and so I tried to see leave rate on early rounds. (Just tested it, I left right after I finished round 3 without any leaks in 1 or 2, which totally took me 329 seconds. Lets say if ppl slighty leak in round 1 and round 2 a dino or whelp or something, the overall time to reach end of round 3 might increase by ~60 seconds and as ppl also leave before a round is over we might subtract a little bit... 30 seconds.)
So the following leave rate is for people with leaving time between 300 and 400 seconds of gameplay, who left voluntarily and where gameduration - leavetime of player is > 120 seconds.
The result is:
4.17% leaver rate for 3.41 (totally 7172 games hosted)
0.55% leaver rate for v3.4 (totally 8491 games hosted)
1.16% leaver rate for 3.3 (totally 31019 games hosted)

Thats a huge increase. ~8 times more than on v3.4 and ~4 times more than on 3.3.

And don't get me wrong here, I don't wanna blame you or force you to change anything. The interest on those stats just crossed my mind and I thought you might be interested... If you need any more data, please let me know.

one of possible reason for leave rate is: they still use old built, but level 3 & 7 suddently become harder.

I think level 3 / 7 / 17 should become easier so game is more friendly to new/average player. and only add hard level after level 20+.

and I really want to put back income cap :
- enable "li" = income cap remove, with lower bonus (same as 3.41)
- disable "li" = put back income cap, higher bonus gold (same as 3.3)

for database statistic, I am interest in follow value:
- average "value" for player reach level 31 (don't count those leave before 31)
- average "score" for player reach level 31 (don't count those leave before 31)
- average "level" for all game
- average "value" for top player at level 31 (like PanicX etc)

 

[HuanAk]

Hmm i dont know if the new bounty system is as good as u think.
Cause it forces newbies to leave if they leak. and then the teams are unbalanced. Cause if they fucked up once they won't probably come back.
If u would change it back to version 3.4 ppl that leak dont mess up the game so hard and u already have a disadvantage due to less bounty.

And yes they get fed and if the leaker leaves they have an advantage but mabye u can do something like dont giving them the level cap gold since the time he leaves and something else. But cutting off so much bounty is really ...

I think it is not fair that u have to play with a newbie and then also get more disadvantaged by having a hrad time killing his leaks and dont get anything from it later on

I will look at how to make it newbie friendlier in next version.

one example is: game is easier in -ap without "li"

Edit: Is there a timelimitation for teleporting to the king's area ?
Cause i played with a mate and he was busy killing his mobs. at this time my leak passed the middle area.
as he finished his wave (my wave just arrived at king) and his mobs were heading towards teleportation area. They couldnt teleport at all. Then they ran back to their starting position (at this time the king was fighting with my leak). Suddenly they teleported from the current position (not in the teleport area) to the king. But somehow not all of his units.
And sometimes they just teleport withou any problem.

Teleport happen every 1 second.

Please post replay for anything unusually so I can see why it happen.

 

[Gazelle]

When wind rider's poison was killing, dont remember not getting gold from kill was that something you had alot of complains about?

Another problem with leaks and king: if you fight a lvl for a long time, and meanwhile some leaked melee creeps have time to get to king, once your unit teleport to middle they wont see the creeps and wont fight to help king.

 

[HuanAk]

When wind rider's poison was killing, dont remember not getting gold from kill was that something you had alot of complains about?

Another problem with leaks and king: if you fight a lvl for a long time, and meanwhile some leaked melee creeps have time to get to king, once your unit teleport to middle they wont see the creeps and wont fight to help king.

default corpse decay was like 6-7 seconds, so poison always fine as long as it not more than 6-7 seconds.

in my test during one of beta (after change to 1 second corpse decay) :
- 1 full row of Medusa
- lost 1-2 creep's bounty every 1-3 wave.
- It is very rare bug but it fixed with disable poison kill

same bug happen for LegionTD UE or 2.7's (rarely but still happen if unlucky)

 

[Gazelle]

default corpse decay was like 6-7 seconds, so poison always fine as long as it not more than 6-7 seconds.

in my test during one of beta (after change to 1 second corpse decay) :
- 1 full row of Medusa
- lost 1-2 creep's bounty every 1-3 wave.
- It is very rare bug but it fixed with disable poison kill

same bug happen for LegionTD UE or 2.7's (rarely but still happen if unlucky)

I think I remember a time where it was happening too witth young frost dragon, now its 5 sec, was that to make sure that bug wouldn't happen?
Maybe then increase a bit dmg on poison and decrease duration, so they can kill again?
Or you mean than even with duration reduced, if it get hit many times, so still poisoned more than 6-7 sec you would still lose few bounties?

 

[HuanAk]

I think I remember a time where it was happening too witth young frost dragon, now its 5 sec, was that to make sure that bug wouldn't happen?
Maybe then increase a bit dmg on poison and decrease duration, so they can kill again?
Or you mean than even with duration reduced, if it get hit many times, so still poisoned more than 6-7 sec you would still lose few bounties?

I am not sure about young frost dragon, it is harder to test (because it don't cast frost in every hit)

but I can test them for next version.

 

[Gazelle]

I am not sure about young frost dragon, it is harder to test (because it don't cast frost in every hit)

but I can test them for next version.

I think it happened before 3.3, frost breath would kill like 15 units without giving a single bounty.
No need to test it though it was an old bug I believe, was just wondering if it was happenning for the same reason than with harpy.

 

[toasted]

default corpse decay was like 6-7 seconds, so poison always fine as long as it not more than 6-7 seconds.

in my test during one of beta (after change to 1 second corpse decay) :
- 1 full row of Medusa
- lost 1-2 creep's bounty every 1-3 wave.
- It is very rare bug but it fixed with disable poison kill

same bug happen for LegionTD UE or 2.7's (rarely but still happen if unlucky)

Maybe this solution is too dumb and simple, but why you don't change corpse decay of Wind Rider to 0,5s + poison duration?

And btw Orc is boring b/c it's enough to spam your Wolverines with some Thralls and one Doc.

 

[Food4Balance]

@HuanAK - Unfortunately 3.41 isn't as fun as 3.3, mainly because many of the normal races (meaning not Hybrid, Prophet, or Merc) are too weak. Merc is no longer fun to play at all since the changes you made were just too drastic. In every 3.41 game, I play Prophet or Shadow because it's almost a definite that I will get 7/15 by level 22 or 23. I haven't been able to get 7/15 with any other race so far. It's possible with Hybrid but I don't play Hybrid and not being able to know what unit you're getting for a certain position is a big minus, so Prophet is generally much better.

I would love to see some replays on 3.41 for the normal races getting 7/15 by level 22 or 23, in a game without many leaks (so not a noob match).

Can you consider nerfing level 14 and 17 a little? Even getting the correct values can cause big leaks if the other team sends some tough units at you on those levels.

 

[Gazelle]

@HuanAK - Unfortunately 3.41 isn't as fun as 3.3, mainly because many of the normal races (meaning not Hybrid, Prophet, or Merc) are too weak. Merc is no longer fun to play at all since the changes you made were just too drastic. In every 3.41 game, I play Prophet or Shadow because it's almost a definite that I will get 7/15 by level 22 or 23. I haven't been able to get 7/15 with any other race so far. It's possible with Hybrid but I don't play Hybrid and not being able to know what unit you're getting for a certain position is a big minus, so Prophet is generally much better.

I would love to see some replays on 3.41 for the normal races getting 7/15 by level 22 or 23, in a game without many leaks (so not a noob match).

Can you consider nerfing level 14 and 17 a little? Even getting the correct values can cause big leaks if the other team sends some tough units at you on those levels.

I agree with merc, it's boring now and in ap I 99% of the time get prophet.

You say you get 7/15 at 22-23, what lumberjack do you usualy have after second arena?
I personnaly never go for 7/15 unless I'm way too fed and get it for second arena, past that lvl upgrading lumberjack mean lowering your value for late lvls which is rly bad for your team.

For shadow, I can pretty much income as much with races like goblin, elf, merc, orc is good too.
The race I can income the most is nature, but not without risking leaks on lvl 20.

 

[Food4Balance]

I agree with merc, it's boring now and in ap I 99% of the time get prophet.

You say you get 7/15 at 22-23, what lumberjack do you usualy have after second arena?
I personnaly never go for 7/15 unless I'm way too fed and get it for second arena, past that lvl upgrading lumberjack mean lowering your value for late lvls which is rly bad for your team.

For shadow, I can pretty much income as much with races like goblin, elf, merc, orc is good too.
The race I can income the most is nature, but not without risking leaks on lvl 20.

With Shadow, I'm usually 7/13 after the second arena and 7/15 by 22. HuanAK said that it takes about 8 levels to benefit from incoming so 22 or 23 is fine. I used to be able to do the same for Arctic in 3.3, but it looks like the ice shamans got nerfed in 3.41. Mech and Orc are still good races in 3.41, but I haven't been able to get 7/15 for them yet.

 

[Gazelle]

With Shadow, I'm usually 7/13 after the second arena and 7/15 by 22. HuanAK said that it takes about 8 levels to benefit from incoming so 22 or 23 is fine. I used to be able to do the same for Arctic in 3.3, but it looks like the ice shamans got nerfed in 3.41. Mech and Orc are still good races in 3.41, but I haven't been able to get 7/15 for them yet.

Most games end at 28, so I focus more on being strong at that lvl.
More than 50% of the times I reach that lvl, I'm the only one not leaking in my team so I kinda have to play that way...
Arctic can be a very strong incomer at start, but I usualy switch race after 10 cause I dont rly like dragons anymore, I make like 1-2 azure dragons for frost attack.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

Most games end at 28, so I focus more on being strong at that lvl.
More than 50% of the times I reach that lvl, I'm the only one not leaking in my team so I kinda have to play that way...
Arctic can be a very strong incomer at start, but I usualy switch race after 10 cause I dont rly like dragons anymore, I make like 1-2 azure dragons for frost attack.

In my opinion, arctic truly shines in midgame (10--20), where Ancient Wandigoos tank everything and out-dps everything. I don't build dragons at all. their poor dps make them as cost-ineffective as a unit can get. I usually change builder at around 14, after I have 4-6 AW's. If a Shadow is randomed, it basically means the same thing as GG you are invincible now. xD

Also, where do you play? Most of my games played end on 17 or 20... (garena usa rpg room)

 

[Gazelle]

In my opinion, arctic truly shines in midgame (10--20), where Ancient Wandigoos tank everything and out-dps everything. I don't build dragons at all. their poor dps make them as cost-ineffective as a unit can get. I usually change builder at around 14, after I have 4-6 AW's. If a Shadow is randomed, it basically means the same thing as GG you are invincible now. xD

Also, where do you play? Most of my games played end on 17 or 20... (garena usa rpg room)

I think 1-2 dragon are usefull to slow down mouvement and att speed of a large group of creeps though, I dont build them for dps they are pretty weak.
Also I keep young frost early game since dps is better, only up them later.

What I should've said is that most games that goes past lvl 20 end at 28 lol.
I play on garena europe room, the rpg rooms, or sometimes element TD room.
Sometimes I do have many good games in a row lasting after 20, depend against who I'm playing ofc.

I think game were lasting more often till 31 on 3.3 though.

Many strong players are staying in element TD room, but I cant get in during day its always full lol.

 

[phr33st00fpl0x]

I think 1-2 dragon are usefull to slow down mouvement and att speed of a large group of creeps though, I dont build them for dps they are pretty weak.
Also I keep young frost early game since dps is better, only up them later.

What I should've said is that most games that goes past lvl 20 end at 28 lol.
I play on garena europe room, the rpg rooms, or sometimes element TD room.
Sometimes I do have many good games in a row lasting after 20, depend against who I'm playing ofc.

I think game were lasting more often till 31 on 3.3 though.

Many strong players are staying in element TD room, but I cant get in during day its always full lol.

Just use the autojoiner from garenamaster. It gets you in approximately 10 min if the room is full. Depends though. Garena sucks big time anyways. The people running it are corrupt, greedy and incompetent as hell. I always see retards trolling/spamming in room chat and they don't give a fuck about it.

 

[Gazelle]

Just use the autojoiner from garenamaster. It gets you in approximately 10 min if the room is full. Depends though. Garena sucks big time anyways. The people running it are corrupt, greedy and incompetent as hell. I always see retards trolling/spamming in room chat and they don't give a fuck about it.

Oh ok I never downloaded those stuff I always have the feeling they are full of virus lol. Do you have a safe link to it?
Also do you have the dota tool that give stats of any units in a map? Tried to find it but couldn't.

The only time I saw garena taking care of trolling/spamming/advertising was when there was an actual moderator in the room, I saw 1 about 2 times.
They are purple and can kick anyone spamming or ban anyone cheating or spamming links.
But that methode is so uneffective, he gets in 1 room at the time and often kick host spamming, so everyone gets mad hahaha.