How is my map?

[Darkflame864]

Below is a link to my map. I'd like it if you'd respond on how I can make it better (w/out the use of imports) Thanks! By the way I updated it>>
Last Posted Version> Ruin Combat v1.22
Currently Posted Version> Ruin Combat v1.28

http://www.wc3sear.ch/?p=Maps&ID=8969

Above is the new link, if you want to try it.

 

[Lord Raszul]

i found it kinda boring.

sry if this isn't the kind of ansewr you wanted, but as long as you want the player to use the DEFAULT nightelves to play with, you can not expect much.

the idea is kinda nice even thoug the shrines may be a little to powerfull.


e.g.
all players in a team give all their ressources to one player and that one masses one kind of units the shrine will double the amount of units and together with the player the enemy will quickly have to fight agains ~300 units while the others can build up some defences and some unitproduction of their own, sponsored by the one with the many archers...


you should create another 'race' to play with and limit the number of units of each 'level' (assign a level to each unit, responding to it's strength and limit them so that the weak ones may be more than the strong ones. (like max 30 archer but only 5 giants)

and you should do the guard-towers as units, so they turn towards the target they fire at (movementspeed = 0, gameplay const - min unit movement = 0)


Another thing is, that units tend to mass. They have to many hitpoints or to low damage, so they are produced way faster than they can be killed.


i guess that's all for now. i'll replay the map once you did a little more of your own touch to it (espacily the unit-building ^^).

- Raszul

 

[Darkflame864]

Thanks for responding,

hmmm... what if I just gave all of the units owned by the spawners a percentage of their normal Hit Points, such as only 75% of their normal hit points (using the handicap). Would that work do you think? :?

If you think that this would work, please state a percentage.

P.S. Oh, and you can choose your race. The shrines are just Night Elves. You can choose whatever of the four races you want.

 

[Lord Raszul]

mh...
okey, i made the mistake of ignoring the race i picked. Therefore presuming that only nightelves are available.

Sry about that.


and for the shines:
i would keep them unchanged. If one team can mass the other one could too. So there is no problem about it.
Maybe if you put in a 'limit units per type' (the weaker the more) thing, it would become more balanced.

For the %age - that isn't neccessary.

But i would definatly apreciate if you make units killed faster.
Your map is a map that uses mass units. Therefore it should have the capability of killing them quite fast.
Maybe double the damage and/or half the hp of all units.

Dunno if that works,but you might try.


and last but not least:
even if i did make the mistakes with the race, it's still a fact, that you can only use the original races. In my opinion they are boring. (i don't want to play them, thats the reason for me to play custom maps, or at least one of the reasons).

If you need any suggestions about the races, just ask ^^.
I liked your map and will therefore continue to support it. (whenever i'm online - i'm curently killing and reinstalling my pcs)

- Raszul

 

[Darkflame864]

umm

1st of all 1/2 the HP thing works w/ the percentage thing. I tried it and it causes the units to die faster. Just I am using about 70% of the normal Hit Points. The unit cap per spawn is around 50. Okay, and next I have no idea how to balance my races w/out practically copying the race whose units I'm using. Oh and by the way whenever I make a change on the map I increase the version number, even if it's a tiny change.
ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC:
-Do you have any tips on how to make the ccustom races more unique, so they are not just copies of a normal race (besides custom abilities, of course) I'd like to keep them balanced so they can keep up with the normal races and vice versa. (no idea how to spell that)

 

[Darkflame864]

umm

1st of all 1/2 the HP thing works w/ the percentage thing. I tried it and it causes the units to die faster. Just I am using about 70% of the normal Hit Points. The unit cap per spawn is around 50. Okay, and next I have no idea how to balance my races w/out practically copying the race whose units I'm using. Oh and by the way whenever I make a change on the map I increase the version number, even if it's a tiny change.
ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC:
-Do you have any tips on how to make the ccustom races more unique, so they are not just copies of a normal race (besides custom abilities, of course) I'd like to keep them balanced so they can keep up with the normal races and vice versa. (no idea how to spell that)

 

[Lord Raszul]

1st - doublepost
why is it, that so many people do double post? i do not mean to be ofensive, but how is it possible to do that mistake that often? (this does not directly mean you - just a generall question)

2nd - new race/s
if i were you, i woudn't use the original races any longer.
You might 'invent' some kind of mathematics to calculate a 'combat value' for each unit, then add all those of a race together and keep them about equal...

(you might try something like "(HP+MP/2+dmg/attackspeed+range/10+'spellvalue') - gold - wood" that should return a quite acceptable value - try it out ^^)

you should think of maybe 2 themes, and create a race around them. then move towards the next one.
You should also make some 'generall definitions' (like each race has 1 creep(very light unit), 1 light caster, 1 knight, 1 heavy fighter, 1 artillery, 1 heavy caster, 3 heroes or something like that - just take a look at the original races)
But:
i would apreciate it very much, if you could get away from the default building-system - that one is used for melee and does not truly fit into your map...


to make it more simple:
just add me in ICQ and we continue our conversation in there (maybe in german?)

- Raszul

 

[Darkflame864]

Hello. Why do I bother writing here?

1st: RE: Doublepost
Okay I think people double post because they do not think that their message went through, so they click submit again.(That's what I did...) This is a habit that many people execute when they are impatient with the loading speed of their computer. (I just did not think that it went through, however )

2nd: RE: ICQ+German
First, I do not have an account on ICQ, but I may get one it depends. Oh, and sorry I do not speak German so our conversations would need to be in English :? sorry...

3rd: Back on topic with my map
Alright, I like your races idea! I was working on a golem race that builds like a normal game but i'm just going to stop because your idea sounds SOO much easier (yay only need to make a few units and buildings) Your unit equation is creepy but cool I may actually try it out on my map! I am probably going to make these new races all share one attack+defense upgrade, however. I do not want to make individual ones. And do you think I should make only 2 buildings: 1 for training troops and another for upgrading, or should I make: a melee, ranged, spellcaster, flying, siege and upgrading buildings?

 

[Lord Raszul]

1st - thanx
for your 1st and for your opinion about the formula. - i just typed it down and it might not even be balanced - no shure. maybe you need to multiply one of the values or a few of them to make them count heavier...
(i did MP/2 for i think it's only half as important as HP - you might add some factors in there too - maybe a *2 with DMG for the DMG numbers usually are quit low and therefore not that important in the end value - do as you wish but please gimme the formula you think of as balanced ^^ - i wanna use it too)


2nd - ICQ
it would be fine, if you had one.
I have currently about 20 mappers in my ICQ-ContactList (i know that's not very much) Whenever i have a question i think of as too complicated to be solved here fast - of that hangs aroun dhere for some time already i ask them to help me - most of the time successfully ^^


3ed - races
i guess i would do the buildings race-dependant.
A strong warior race would not mind the differences of things so much and therefore maybe only have 2 or 3 buildings, where a fragile magican race would very well know the differences and keep them high.
Just create a formula of your own for the buildings (remember that it is negative to have to build many - they should have a negative value) and include that into your race-value calculation... (but don't stack them with to high values, or the units of 'mass building' races will become to strong.)

i would generally think about 3 types of 'building structures'

1. Normal
   each type of units has it's own structure - melee, ranged, basic units, casters, ...
2. Centered
   all untis are produced in one structure, but each group/individuall requires external buildings to be available - bit like the 'zerg' from starcraft
3. Variations
   you might have every single unit to have it's own sructure, or simple group together all 10 melees into one building - thats up to you

... i just wanted to tell you a few possibilities.
//maybe one of the other readers has a idea too?

BUT, last but never ever least - you should limit each unit type (maybe set some kidn of levels for the different strengthes? likme footman = lv 1, archer= lv2, knight = lv3, etc - like in Heroes of Might and Magic)
the stronger a type is, the lesser one can have of that type. (so only 1 grand dragon, but 20-30 skeletons, or something like that ^^)

You might also think of giving each race 1-3 individuall abilities that only them, but ALL of them have - for a spider race it would be to be net-down flying units or to attack flying units + poision - and for your golems it might be 'y% chance to ignore x damage' (y=const, upgradeably; x = n*level) + 'magic imunity'

something like that - maybe even one more ability/feature that is global and 'non-creature-related'
- the spiders may have their main building lay an egg from time to time, that hatches one of their basic units, or the golems may have +1 gold, whenever they slay an 'organic' (like a reward for killing the worst enemy ^^)
stuff that does not tide the balance, but is unic for each race and adds some 'spice' to it ^^
(i love necromancers - 'undead - %damage reduce + regeneration' - 'mass - 1/2 unit strength, 2x unit amount' - 'necromancy - %chance to revive a killed unit' - just as a suggestion ^^)

now it's up to you to create some races - i will provide you with some of my ideas, if you want to, but please tell me your 'basics' (like how many units of which level) before, so i can adjust my thoughts acording to that ^^ - the balancing i leave entirely up to you (nevertheless i try to make them balanced from the beginning ^^)


4ed - posting
lol, looks like we share the habit of styling our posts - without this point we would have had 3 times 3 points in our topics ^^


- Raszul

 

[Darkflame864]

Stop asking me for a subject, www.wc3sear.ch! NO NEED FOR 1

Thanks for the ideas, I'm going to go try them out and see what I get. I'm liking your centered idea because then I do not need to make too many buildings (I am quite lazy in World Editor). Thanks!

Here is the equation so far:

(HP+[HP*HP regeneration rate]+MP/2+[MP*MP regen.]+dmg+max dice value/attackspeed+range/10+Value of all spells added together+# of upgrades used+[10*Status(air or ground)]+[4*dmg value]+[20*hero?]+2*Armor-# of requirements to buy unit*2+(10*attacks ground and air or just one?)+(5*can it ever attack air?)-# of spell requirements*)-gold-wood

Return Value 1 for TRUE
Return Value 0 for FALSE

STATUS>>>
AIR Unit=2 (b/c they can be targeted less)
Ground Unit=1

DAMAGE VALUES>>>
MAgic=0
Pierce=1
Normal=2
Siege=3
Hero=4
Chaos=5

SPELL VALUES>>>
% chance spells (Bash, critical, Pulverize)=Level 1
Summon Spells=6
Always Spells (Slow Poison, frost attack, etc.)=2
Assist Spells=5 (bloodlust etc.)
Auras and activate/deactivate no mana spells=4
Single unit Damage Spells=3
AOE spells=7


This equation is confusing but I think it works. I've included everything I could think of except for Armor type. Tell me what you think.


One thing, however: Do you know how I could make the spawners be smart and cast spells without them running all over the place like they do when they have the Melee AI? (I do not know how to make an AI of my own)

Oh, and HOW DO YOU MANAGE TO WRITE SO MUCH EVERY TIME YOU POST!!!!!!

 

[Lord Raszul]

sry, i haven't looked through your equation right now, i will do so later, when i have made some more progress with my own map ^^ (nevertheless it looks as thought it might be ok... even though more complicated than it might be neccessary - i look at it later)

and for the spawners:
simply spawn them for a computer player. and use the original spells for them (so a spell that deals damage, deals damage in about the same way with your spell)
It should work. If it doesn't (and i guess it does not as good as it should) you might try
- exporting your WHOLE object data
- going to the AI-Edit
- import your object-data
- set the values on the first page
- delete all the values from the other pages(or all you think of as coming into your way)
- save it
- import it into your map
- launch it for your computer players via trigger.

The setting of the first page should be quite self-explaining.

i hope this helps you a little ^^

- Raszul

PS:
and for posting that much:
i simply type down whatever i think at the very moment - that combined with beeing able to type not that slow, i come to texts of quite some size ^^

 

[Darkflame864]

Okay

Okay I have bo idea how to use the AI Editor, I've tried... and failed. Anyway, when you say for a "computer player" my assumption is that you mean orange and purple the spawners. And no that doesn't work. When they spawn Necromancers they will not summon skeletons, and Shamans will not cast bloodlust. It confuses me, for when I do the EXACT same thing with heroes and abilities (normal and custom), they work!!! I really do not get it. :?

-Oh, and now is the time where...
==You can make up as many races as you want!!! (Please keep in mind, however, I will not be able to use EVERY sugguestion but I will probably use at least one!)

 

[Lord Raszul]

1st - spells
Autocast
if you want a unit to automatically cast autocast spells you should go to the object edit, to your unit, to the place where you set it's abilities. Right below that, you can select another ability. Select the unit's autocast ability there.

vola - it casts it automatically

2nd - Races
sample
As soon, as you gimme a sample (e.g. your golem race) i will create a race (or several) that are about the same strength as the golems.
You might do so, by either sending me an empty map with only them in (or another map with them in), or by typing them down here...
If you send me a map, i will send you one too...
If not, i will write them down here.

mail: [email protected]

- Raszul

 

[Darkflame864]

The Spells like bloodlust do not autocast when owned by the spawners, and those are by default meant to autocast. Oh, and when you come up with the races, like how are you going to do it? are you going to write down each individual building on this post, or are you going to pre-make it... I do not understand how you are going to go about creating the races.

 

[Lord Raszul]

1st - autocast
if you have added it as an ability to the unit AND have added it as teh default auto-cast spell, it WILL be used for the spawners. - i did that myself a few times.

2nd - races

1. post
   if we were to post it, we would have to write down every unit, ability, upgrade, building, item (for an eventual race trader) etc.
   And yes: that would be more than a little efford.
2. map
   if we were to put it into a map, we could:
   [list:c2c26211ea]
3. make them easier (faster made, and faster shared)
4. balance them easier (by fighting against each other on that map)
5. Design them easier (for everyone creates his/her race as he/she want to, there are no misunderstandings about anything - espeacily looks ^^)

[/list:c2c26211ea]

- Raszul

 

[Darkflame864]

Okay but...

Sounds good, but...
How do you export a specific group of units, and how do you import without overwriting all of your old units?

 

[blademasterEXO]

NO u cant, u have to take the hard way...

Copy Paste Copy Paste , BLizzard should really put copy paste in groups available instead of 1 by 1 .

 

[Lord Raszul]

if we create the races all in the same map, then you should have not problems at all....

we simply have to talk, so we are not editing the map at the same time...

 

[Darkflame864]

THAT STINKS THERE'S NO GROUP EXPORTT

oh well. Anyway, when you say "same map" do you mean the ACTUAL map or another map?

 

[Lord Raszul]

sry for replying so late, i have been a week in belgum (that's it in eng, isn't it? - in ger: Belgien)

That depends on whether you accept sharing you map unprotected with me.
For me either way is fine, but a new map is a little more work for you - you need to get all the stuff that remains from the old map into that map, or the other way - everything from the new map to the old one...

I'm fine with both ways. Just tell me, or send me the map via mail:

raszul @ gmx . net
remove the spaces - i put them in to fool email-search-machines.

 

[Darkflame864]

OK I may not be doing Wc3 for a while b/c I'm kinda taking a break from it. (I can't play one thing TOO much, you know) so anyway, I'll be getting back to the map eventually... when I do I'll let you know. (I've got a feeling I'll be getting back to it soon...)