Why is Warcraft III not like this?

[Dr Super Good]

We all love Warcraft III do we not?

Then I saw this...

There is now do doubt about it. StarCraft II is beating Warcraft III massively.

 

[CampScouter]

Well, for me I think that Blizzard should release a patch that would change the game.

But, we already got modders in Hive, so, nevermind xD

 

[Statharas]

Guess who tried to bring people over to Starcraft 2 but everyone was like, NAAAAAH, WC3 is an eternal game, people will keep playing it forever.

 

[CampScouter]

Guess who tried to bring people over to Starcraft 2 but everyone was like, NAAAAAH, WC3 is an eternal game, people will keep playing it forever.

Lol.

 

[Doomcore]

I don't still know what is good with SC2 with just 3 races only and few modders doing game maps.

 

[CampScouter]

I don't still know what is good with SC2 with just 3 races only and few modders doing game maps.

Maybe its graphics? And the competitive scene still ongoing

 

[Dr Super Good]

I don't still know what is good with SC2 with just 3 races only and few modders doing game maps.

The question should be why are more people modding WC3 than SC2?

 

[Kyrbi0]

The question should be why are more people modding WC3 than SC2?

There's lots of answers to that question; perhaps as many as there are modders. Rather than list them all off, they are left as an exercise for the reader.

However, a common theme I tend to hear running throughout the community is the determination that Starcraft 2 is a lot less friendly to modding, most especially to beginners. While undoubtedly more powerful, the system is not conducive to the kind of freeform experimentation that the World Editor was and is.

 

[BritneySpears2016]

The question should be why are more people modding WC3 than SC2?

Cause SC2 has next to nothing audience compared to WC3 (lul 2001 game vs 2012 game)
Cause SC2 overtake ALL your work for free anytime anyday leaving you alone
How about these 2 at least?

 

[Doomcore]

Maybe its graphics? And the competitive scene still ongoing

Could be. Sc3 could haopen anytime and any moment because of that.

The question should be why are more people modding WC3 than SC2?

It is addictive. Many people like us appreciate it. Even the russians, chinese, and spanish men are addicted to it and some of them are in 'factions' like own websites and places other than thw. And everything in it is user friendly, you can play and mod very easily and a lot of people does that.

SC2 is hard to mod because of its engine I guess or if a success in modding it comes, I think the number of people who would get into it is much lesser than how many people would be into just one total conversion or campaign of wc3.

And Wc3 is the birthmark of Dota 2 now. People still look back into the classic game and remember everytime they play Valve's spin-off.

 

[Xonok]

The ratio of good to bad maps in SC2 is somewhat better, because you have to be quite dedicated to mod Sc2. New mapmakers frequently give up before uploading anything.
Once you know how Sc2 works it's not that hard, but the initial impression is pretty much the worst parts of Object Editor and Trigger Editor combined.
I haven't seen any truly spectacular maps in Sc2 though. A lot of the published maps are quite polished, but simply get dull. I wonder what the reason is.

 

[Eagle XI]

I haven't seen any truly spectacular maps in Sc2 though. A lot of the published maps are quite polished, but simply get dull. I wonder what the reason is.

Its probably that the modder had amazing ideas at the start of the road, yet spent so much time figuring ways of the sc2 editor he went with whatever works closebest to original intention instead tackling it further.

 

[Dr Super Good]

There are some technical marvels in SC2. The Dia blo map demonstrates how it is possible to recreate a lot of Diablo I mechanics in SC2 including random floor layouts, voice overs and movement system. There is also that BLZ enforcement map (forget exact name) which demonstrates top down shooter mechanics as well as extensive use of high quality custom made assets.

 

[robizeratul]

Whatever happened to Garena? A few years ago tons of people played it. 10+ rooms of dota where always full and 1 , 1-5 RPG room.

Now I just downloaded it again and to my shock it's all gone. No warcraft 3. Didn't hear anything about this...Need to find new places to play.

 

[Cuore]

There are some technical marvels in SC2. The Dia blo map demonstrates how it is possible to recreate a lot of Diablo I mechanics in SC2 including random floor layouts, voice overs and movement system. There is also that BLZ enforcement map (forget exact name) which demonstrates top down shooter mechanics as well as extensive use of high quality custom made assets.

So:

why are more people modding WC3 than SC2?

I think that much of the answer lies in the notion that modders do this as a hobby. They aren't paid and they do what they do for fun.
Probably the ratio of wC3 to SC2 modders is related to the fact that many among the audience don't feel that modding sc2 is comparable to a hobby, fun, or relaxing if you will.
SC2 modding has a higher skill barrier, it's a very prevalent opinion. I believe that those who are technically educated (due to their study or job career) don't feel this barrier a lot, and have no reason to prefer WC3 to SC2.
But those that aren't educated in the technical fields that are relevant for game development feel this barrier weighing heavily and have a relatively high risk of getting frustrated while trying to overcome it: the driving force of "fun" is lost at that point. WC3 is so much more limited in what it can do, but it's so much easier to make something, even for the technically inexperienced modder.

What follows is obvious enough but making technical marvels isn't easy. The promise of technical marvels that SC2 holds is not attractive enough for many individuals interested in modding if the road to those marvels is paved by frustrations.

Also the strong ties with the very famous videogame wow, and the storytelling strength that WC3 has over WoW, are not to be ignored. SC2 doesn't have anything of the sort to relate to, and that could be important too.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Also the strong ties with the very famous videogame wow, and the storytelling strength that WC3 has over WoW, are not to be ignored. SC2 doesn't have anything of the sort to relate to, and that could be important too.

SC2 has the entire WC3 asset set in it, every single unit, doodad, sound, icon and destructable...

 

[LordDz]

The problem with the SC2 editor is that while it's advanced, it just takes a very long time to do things.
Take for example, creating a Footman with a grunt model in wc3.
I right click footman, type in name, change model, change damage some and change icon, change upgrade.

For SC2, I duplicate a unit, go to the actor, change the name of it because it's called the unit + copy, same for each model (unit model, death, fire death, acid), update the unit icon, wireframe icon, group icon.
I duplicated the weapon so I change the name of it, change name of all effects, set damage.
I want upgrades to apply for it? I have to edit all three levels of the upgrade for it to apply to the unit and set them to affect the unit.

Then testing it and hoping nothing broke.

I'm currently mapping for Starcraft 2, but I totally understand why people stick to WC3.
The trigger editor however is love and not having to bother with leaks is really nice.

 

[Chaosy]

For me, lack of assets to even consider it.
I do play the occasional sci-fi game, yes I enjoyed SC2, but my main interest is in the fantasy genre.

Which is why wc3 is more pleasing to me.
I know SC2 have SOME wc3 models, but they cannot be compared to the vast number of models and skins available on wc3 modding sites.

 

[Cuore]

SC2 has the entire WC3 asset set in it, every single unit, doodad, sound, icon and destructable...

Sc2 has wc3 assets. First of all it's just a fraction of the assets really available to wc3 thanks to the modding communities, and making additional, custom assets for sc2 with a wc3 feel to them requires considerably more effort than making custom wc3 assets.
Even regarding assets sc2 is more advanced and difficult to mod than wc3.
And secundarily, how can these assets be enjoyed? is wc3 playable on sc2? Are there single- and multiplayer maps for warcraft 3 in sc2 that can make good use of those assets?
I am stuck at considering Armies of azeroth the most advanced attempt at remaking wc3 in sc2, and it's still incomplete as far as i can tell. I have no idea of the details, but the general impression I get is that it has been incomplete for years because the tasks required to make it work are hard to accomplish, especially for people who work on it as hobbyists. If someone is better informed on the subject please fill me in.
EDIT: due to me being utterly uninformed about the SC2 modding scene, this idea that sc2 doesn't have a good mod to emulate wc3 is not based on known facts, it's an impression I get and could very well be false. I believe there have been attempts to port wc3 into sc2 which i'm not aware of. Successful mods of this kind should get some more visibility imo. Still the issue of the technical barrier to use and/or improve them would remain.
reEDIT: typofix

 

[Kyrbi0]

SC2 has the entire WC3 asset set in it, every single unit, doodad, sound, icon and destructable...

'Having the form thereof, but denying the power of godliness'

 

[Cuore]

As a side question stemming from the theme of this thread, I would like to ask those who are better informed than me: what is the current status of mods aiming to port warcraft 3 in starcraft 2?
I've been summarily looking at:

• StarCraft II Modding for "warcraft" as search term
  
• Warcraft Modding - Player Zone - SC2 Mapster Forums - SC2Mapster

I understood thanks to an intervention of @Shar Dundred that the warcraft 3 assets in sc2 are a purely design mod, meaning that they aren't enough by themselves to port wc3 into sc2.
I see that a modder going by the name of Renée has created a conversion project known as war3 mod(ga) in 2015 and that his/her contributions in the dedicated forum come to a halt in the mid 2017. I receive a summary impression that this mod is functional but it suffers from missing features and bugs, and I don't understand who's nowadays actively developing it.

I believe that perfecting conversion mods such as this one would ultimately allow to transform the current old warcraft 3 in what the OP was talking about. The question then becomes: who wants to take upon themselvs the hurdle of doing it? (and in case they aren't technically prepared, also to learn a fair deal of technical knowledge before starting to work on it?)

I think that the motivational drive represented by fun, that leads the vast majority of modders, alone will rarely be enough to convince someone to work on such ambitious and daunting tasks.

What I ask myself is why the property of these softwares, which has the resources to motivate professionals and see jobs like these done relatively quickly, doesn't undertake similar enterprises that would ultimately attract to sc2 a portion of audience now confined to the old warcraft 3. The answer must lie in considerations over the lack of profitability of such development choices.

EDIT:typofixes

 

[FeruEnzeruJKun]

We all love Warcraft III do we not?
View attachment 281888
Then I saw this...
View attachment 281886
There is now do doubt about it. StarCraft II is beating Warcraft III massively.

Interesting.

Only part SC2 does not have are "Maps" and "Campaigns" folders. It only has "mods" folder (Well i don't do SC2 mods).
I always watch SC2 vids with mods, but i'm better off with a "Custom Map" and "Mod" free SC2 and a "Mod" free Diablo 3.

I'm not a big fan of Blizzard games (including EA and Ubisoft games) that does not allow custom maps, custom campaigns and custom mods excluding D3 (Well i like Diablo 3) and WoW (Besides. Blizzard can make WC4 be like SC2 having no Maps folder).

Only Blizzard game i want to play with Custom Maps and Campaigns is Warcraft 3.


Only part i'm not happy about SC2... is SC2 beating WC3 massively. :\

 

[Dr Super Good]

Only part SC2 does not have are "Maps" and "Campaigns" folders. It only has "mods" folder (Well i don't SC2 mods).

You can download all Arcade games from BattleNet.

I always watch SC2 vids with mods, but i'm better off with a "Custom Map" and "Mod" free SC2 and a "Mod" free Diablo 3.

Not sure what you are talking about. SC2's version of custom maps is often referred to as the Arcade. Feel free to try it out as all SC2 Arcade maps are free, you do not even need a single SC2 licence to play them, just download SC2 from Blizzard BattleNet app and play them.

 

[FeruEnzeruJKun]

You can download all Arcade games from BattleNet.

Yeah, somewhat as i imagine. :\

Not sure what you are talking about. SC2's version of custom maps is often referred to as the Arcade. Feel free to try it out as all SC2 Arcade maps are free, you do not even need a single SC2 licence to play them, just download SC2 from Blizzard BattleNet app and play them.

No thanks I'm good. Besides, my 1-2 year old Windows 10 Alienware is having OS problems and issues like "Windows Explorer Not Responding Crash/Freeze Issue" and Blue Screens of Death meaning is about to have a chance to die.

My laptop is not good enough for SPORE, XCOM:EU/EW-2, DOW and other games excluding WC3, OXC, HOMM5 and others i might want or do not want to test on my laptop.

I can't live without that laptop i'm using for WC3, LDD and other games/apps (Not new games) i want to test on Windows 10 (It really needs to get fixed from a windows computer repair place that can fix its problems and issues. Some Alienware computers might have 2GB, 3GB or 1TB hard drives).

I tried WC3 without Blizzard App on my laptop since last year (2016) with the US version of the official CD.

I'm just fine, WC3, D3 and SC2 on Blizzard App's very important for other circumstances.

Also, i'll probably get my own Blizzard Account (along with App) for WC3, SC1&2, SC1R and D3 right until my W10 Alienware laptop gets fixed (If not, i'll get the newest Alienware laptop that will be Windows 10-12 in the future with better components), or until i get the desktops in future i'm talking about for years or both if it depends (I'll maybe save the BN account for Gmail instead of the email site i'm using if i like).

In the meantime, i'm saving the SC1&2 stuff for the future i suppose (But not D3 mods).

Why not.

 

[Dr Super Good]

No thanks I'm good. Besides, my 1-2 year old Windows 10 Alienware is having OS problems and issues like "Windows Explorer Not Responding Crash/Freeze Issue" and Blue Screens of Death meaning is about to have a chance to die.

What does this have to do with StarCraft II? I run the game on a 7 year old computer which has had to have its PSU and GPU replaced about 3 years ago. Still runs fine.

If overheating is a problem, limit frame rate and lower shaders. That is how I got SC2 to run on an 8800GT without burning it out.

I tried WC3 without Blizzard App on my laptop since last year (2016) with the US version of the official CD.

WC3 has still to integrate Blizzard BattleNet application. Attaching it to your Blizzard BattleNet account is purely for licence management purposes as it means you can always reinstall it if you lose your CDs.

SC1 is on Blizzard BattleNet application. They recently ported it for the HD re-release.

 

[FeruEnzeruJKun]

What does this have to do with StarCraft II?

What does this have to do with StarCraft II? I tried SC2 with no mods since 2010-2012 like something to do with Blizzard banning, downrating and downvoting SC2 maps and mods sometimes in 2010-2011 (I think in 2013-2017 that Blizzard maybe stopped banning, downrating and downvoting SC2 maps and mods? I dunno).

I'll try SC2 mods (Well SC2 is 2GB or 3GB i guess. I don't want to install SC2 on my laptop because SC2 has huge files) eventually unless i have a desktop with 2GB or 1TB for them (Because SC2 is a huge game with lots of GB/TB in it).

That's why i want to try them out and see if it affects Blizzard rules, T.O.U and E.U.L.A i believe.

I run the game on a 7 year old computer which has had to have its PSU and GPU replaced about 3 years ago. Still runs fine.

Okay. Also, i can't update my nvidia driver on my Alienware because i don't know how updating it works, and starting to get hard for me to install the updates.

If overheating is a problem, limit frame rate and lower shaders. That is how I got SC2 to run on an 8800GT without burning it out.

I see, but seems okay. :\

WC3 has still to integrate Blizzard BattleNet application. Attaching it to your Blizzard BattleNet account is purely for licence management purposes as it means you can always reinstall it if you lose your CDs.

Yes it is. I do not have Blizzard BN account for WC3, SC1&2, SCR and D3 i believe, i can still promise to get it along with the games if i lose my cds.

That is correct.

SC1 is on Blizzard BattleNet application. They recently ported it for the HD re-release.

Yeah, but @Jayborino always doing the Reaver Menace custom campaign with no HD remaster because SC1 maps are not compatible with SCR.

Maybe next year or next future, Blizzard maybe needs to update SCR in order to add a better map editor for SC1 maps i presume.

Don't get me wrong.

 

[Dr Super Good]

What does this have to do with StarCraft II? I tried SC2 with no mods since 2010-2012 like something to do with Blizzard banning, downrating and downvoting SC2 maps and mods sometimes in 2010-2011 (I think in 2013-2017 that Blizzard maybe stopped banning, downrating and downvoting SC2 maps and mods? I dunno).

I'll try SC2 mods (Well SC2 is 2GB or 3GB i guess. I don't want to install SC2 on my laptop because SC2 has huge files) eventually unless i have a desktop with 2GB or 1TB for them (Because SC2 is a huge game with lots of GB/TB in it).

That's why i want to try them out and see if it affects Blizzard rules, T.O.U and E.U.L.A i believe.

What does this have to do with SC2 Arcade maps, as pictured above?

Yes it is. I do not have Blizzard BN account for WC3, SC1&2, SCR and D3 i believe, i can still promise to get it along with the games if i lose my cds.

WC3 is not on the Blizzard BattleNet application. I can post screenshot evidence if required.

Yeah, but @Jayborino always doing the Reaver Menace custom campaign with no HD remaster because SC1 maps are not compatible with SCR.

Does not matter seeing how SC1 non-remastered is completely free for everyone, including multiplayer support.

 

[Kakerate]

For people who are content programming on the war3 engine, theres no need for a program to port your map over for sc2. Aside from that, anyone dedicated who has wanted to put their project on sc2 has simply recoded it for sc2. The small subset of people this program would help doesn't include anyone who could actually make it.

If you really want to see this software finished, maybe offer up like $50 for someone to take for putting in work for you.


edit: It's possibly a little unfair saying only a small set of people would use this if it was made. However, aren't sc2 maps stuck on 256x256 size? Also not sure about the amount of imports allowed, but with the complexity of sc2 models I don't think a project that had 100+ custom assets would be convertible.

 

[Xonok]

Actually, if I could reasonably do that, I would port to SC2 or even move over entirely.
However, the cost-benefit ratio is heavily skewed against it unless you put a lot of time into it.
SC2 needs an easy mode for data editor, just like GUI is for WC3.

 

[A Void]

Tbh, I prefer the old-school Warcraft 3 lobby. That's just me I guess, everything was a lot simpler and less cluttered.

 

[Dr Super Good]

everything was a lot simpler and less cluttered.

So simple that finding a game with players in it is near impossible.

 

[A Void]

So simple that finding a game with players in it is near impossible.

Can you elaborate? What does that have to do with finding players?

 

[Dr Super Good]

Can you elaborate?

Look at the screenshots. In the WC3 one most of those lobbies have no players in them and the only way to find out is to join them and leave once you realise there are no players. In SC2 firstly the list only shows games which have at least 1 player in them (already better than WC3), then one can select them individually and see who is in the lobby so know how soon the game will start.

 

[A Void]

Look at the screenshots. In the WC3 one most of those lobbies have no players in them and the only way to find out is to join them and leave once you realise there are no players. In SC2 firstly the list only shows games which have at least 1 player in them (already better than WC3), then one can select them individually and see who is in the lobby so know how soon the game will start.

That's just a feature, which can be easily added to Warcraft 3. I was talking about the overall design of the SC2 lobby.

Most of those features should be patched in without changing the design of the lobby.

 

[Naze]

Look at the screenshots. In the WC3 one most of those lobbies have no players in them and the only way to find out is to join them and leave once you realise there are no players. In SC2 firstly the list only shows games which have at least 1 player in them (already better than WC3), then one can select them individually and see who is in the lobby so know how soon the game will start.

These indeed are nice features that ease browsing a lot, most recent games have them. Idk if they'll update the WC3 lobby design, however it seems Blizz ultimately wants to incorporate WC3 to modern battle.net, so if it happens those would be welcome changes. I don't find SC2 lobby design cluttered or anything, it's just nice and functional. A bit too... clinical clear to the eyes, maybe? It's sci-fi themed so I can understand, but I'm always for a bit more grunge in the textures, since it's been some years that most major games bear this clean, sterile UI design - even when they're not futuristic (e.g. For Honor, CoD: WWII, Total War: Rome II, Shadow of War).

 

[Rui]

There is now do doubt about it. StarCraft II is beating Warcraft III massively.

Sure, but you are saying this on top of an improved lobby system? The Wc3 lobby system could easily be fixed if only it received some real attention.

Guess who tried to bring people over to Starcraft 2 but everyone was like, NAAAAAH, WC3 is an eternal game, people will keep playing it forever.

Same here... God knows I did try. But I said it then and I haven't changed my mind: we needed way more hype than a forum and a few resources.

SC2 has the entire WC3 asset set in it, every single unit, doodad, sound, icon and destructable...

Which came only after a significant period of time. Even though a few people, me included, continuously warned, even before the Beta, that the lack of resources/assets in SC2 would be harmful to modding.
In answer to your initial question, SC2 suffered immensely from timing problems. This was one of them. The other timing errors were the modeling tools only getting released 2 or 3 years after Wings of Liberty, and the horrible lobby system it had then, far worse than the one you pictured in post #1.

Sure SC2's Editor is great. But, and I've lost count how many times I've written this in the past 7 years, the editor screwed up on basic things that got me on my nerves the very first time I tried it:
— the 256x256 map size limit;
— the 8 textures limit;
— unable to properly organize data in folders
— things would vanish if edited through XML,
— unable to apply the melee mod on top of campaign mod so as to have unit melee stats

Spoiler

E.g. Marauder 125hp instead of the 100 hp it has prior to Kinetic Foam campaign upgrade.

To top it off, you had the schizophrenic map management system and copyright laws.

And yes, as many have already mentioned, the editor is hard to work with. A known fact from educational science: complexity that is too low or too high is bad for learning. That applies to modeling too. Good graphics doesn't just mean good graphics: it represents an extra effort for artists. They said it now and again. The level of complexity demanded from SC2 models is just too high. If you were to get there, you'd be better off working and getting paid for doing models that complicated.

 

[Kyrbi0]

^This.