Why are WoW models not allowed?

[LordDz]

I think that it is hilarious Hive does not support WoW exports of ANY kind, yet supports an astonishing amount of advertisements of illegal sales of gold for the game on this website. Try justifying that.

Exports from WoW: No cash, at the very best you'll get a sue from Blizzard.

Gold ads: Cash to keep the site alive. Remove the Gold ads and export wow models - no more hive.

 

[Captain Griffen]

It's quite simple kids.

EULAs are not law. Breaching the EULA may or may not be illegal. It's a gigantic gray area which lawyers just love. Almost certainly it'll vary from country to country. A lot.

Copyright law on the other hand is very clear. There's also a similar split in morality. Is gold selling bad or not? Open question. Is ripping artist's work without their permission bad? Yes.

 

[Skazothnick]

I think that exporting the wow models is not allowed, because administrators don't like wow models.

And not all players of warcraft III have wow.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

Alright, ill put it this way and end it...

Exporting models is illegal in the sense that if you export it from WoW and allow public download of it, it becomes the same as music piracy. But, then again a lot of resources here are exported from Warcraft III, and god forbid not every single person who might cruise the net run into this website and they can potentionally download the models meaning it would then be considered the same as if someone with Warcraft III downloaded WoW models that does not have the game. This now created a never ending cycle of hypocracy that I am stating this site enforces.

Just because you earn the gold while playing WoW doesn't mean you own it and reserve the right to exploit it for profit. That gold is code, and like models, code is property owned as well since it was created by Blizzard. While it may not be specifically copyrighted, you can not make a profit off something another person or company made. Programs like Maya and Photoshop, and many sound editing programs cant specifically copyright anything you make, but they can legally bind you to an agreement that you can not commercialize or make profit off anything created with that program unless you pay alot more money or they can and will sue you. A EULA is legally binding, its the matter of how much of it can be enforced, and anything related to the exploitation of profit is without a doubt enforceable. If you work at a shoe factory, just because you helped make the shoes in the process doesn't mean you can take those shoes off the production line and sell them to people because you made them.

So, what my argument has been all about is if the administrators decided to not allow custom wow exports because of legality issues, then they would also not be promoting wow gold selling all over the site. So they need to get rid of this sense of justice that they disallow wow exporting because they want this site to be clean, and admit it was just a personal opinion and dont care about legality when it comes to personal gain. (making money off ads enacting in illegal practices)

I dont care about the ads being on the site since like I mentioned before, you gotta make money to support the site somehow, but get rid of the bullshit that it was banned because it is illegal and immoral when the site turns around and supports nearly the same ideal in gold ads. All of you seem to bash on one illegal practice, while support another illegal practice just because is advantageous to yourself. Just another pathetic stupidity of todays society, everyone is a hypocrite.

 

[Captain Griffen]

A EULA is legally binding, its the matter of how much of it can be enforced, and anything related to the exploitation of profit is without a doubt enforceable.

Not actually true. The question can also be rephrased as, do you have the right to do with your WoW gold as you please, or can Blizzard dictate what you do with your character's items? The second one would preclude you from in fact playing the game, which is a violation of the basic tennant under which you entered into the contract with Blizzard. That would under that argument thus be an unenforceable part of the EULA.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

Not actually true. The question can also be rephrased as, do you have the right to do with your WoW gold as you please, or can Blizzard dictate what you do with your character's items? The second one would preclude you from in fact playing the game, which is a violation of the basic tennant under which you entered into the contract with Blizzard. That would under that argument thus be an unenforceable part of the EULA.

If this were so, then programs such as Photoshop, Maya, and any other type of interactive-media software used today would never make any money. Why is this? Well, because for programs like Adobe applications make their money by enforcing a license agreement that anything created within the program can not be exploited for profit without the requirement to pay large sums of money to them through a commercial version. You think software developers just buy the cheap student versions and use them all they like? The answer is, no. A commercial product and a private or even educational version all have a different agreement. The non-commercial ones bind you from making profit off anything created in it, and they can indeed seek compensation in the court of law, and will win. The same thing can go for WoW. Upon agreement, you acknowledge (as stated in the agreement) that all objects, code, and anything that is acquired in the game is specifically owned by Blizzard. And as I have stated many times, exploiting something you DO NOT OWN for profit is THEFT, and ILLEGAL. Arguing otherwise is simply ignorant. And as I had already as well, Blizzard has no reason to take action against anyone who does it because they will not make any gains doing it. Nor would they ever do anything about the use of their models from WoW as you are not selling them, are you.

Both are illegal, attempting to justify one over the other is blissful ignorants which brings me back to my first point which was Hive condemning one immoral act while turning its head at the other for its own benefit.

 

[Captain Griffen]

If this were so, then programs such as Photoshop, Maya, and any other type of interactive-media software used today would never make any money. Why is this? Well, because for programs like Adobe applications make their money by enforcing a license agreement that anything created within the program can not be exploited for profit without the requirement to pay large sums of money to them through a commercial version. You think software developers just buy the cheap student versions and use them all they like? The answer is, no. A commercial product and a private or even educational version all have a different agreement. The non-commercial ones bind you from making profit off anything created in it, and they can indeed seek compensation in the court of law, and will win. The same thing can go for WoW. Upon agreement, you acknowledge (as stated in the agreement) that all objects, code, and anything that is acquired in the game is specifically owned by Blizzard. And as I have stated many times, exploiting something you DO NOT OWN for profit is THEFT, and ILLEGAL. Arguing otherwise is simply ignorant. And as I had already as well, Blizzard has no reason to take action against anyone who does it because they will not make any gains doing it. Nor would they ever do anything about the use of their models from WoW as you are not selling them, are you.

Both are illegal, attempting to justify one over the other is blissful ignorants which brings me back to my first point which was Hive condemning one immoral act while turning its head at the other for its own benefit.

Your arguments are wrong from a moral perspective, and fall down on a legal perspective in many ways, such that as advertising does not constitute an offer, and hence does not constitute in itself breach of contract or of the law, or even an offer to do so.

The analogy falls down for several reasons. For example, the fundamental contract is you get to do what you want your character, and his stuff, and blizzard gets your monthly fee. That cannot be altered by the small print, because, hey, that's the heart of the contract - in the UK at least, if you try and alter the main tenant of the contract by small print like the EULA, you're not going to get anywhere. This isn't the case in stuff like Photoshop, where it's clear that the basic agreement's for non-commercial use.

And as I have stated many times, exploiting something you DO NOT OWN for profit is THEFT, and ILLEGAL. Arguing otherwise is simply ignorant.

Just...no. Really. No. Counterexample: Say I take a picture of your property and then sell it. Is that theft? No. Say I rent a house and then sublet it. Is that theft or illegal? No. You most definately can make a profit off something you don't own. Alledging otherwise is simply wrong, as those two counter examples of different kinds show, and there are plenty of others - parody, for example. Reviews of stuff make money off something you don't own, ffs!

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

Your arguments are wrong from a moral perspective, and fall down on a legal perspective in many ways, such that as advertising does not constitute an offer, and hence does not constitute in itself breach of contract or of the law, or even an offer to do so.

this has no relevance to the conversation, i never mentioned anything about advertisement.

The analogy falls down for several reasons. For example, the fundamental contract is you get to do what you want your character, and his stuff, and blizzard gets your monthly fee. That cannot be altered by the small print, because, hey, that's the heart of the contract - in the UK at least, if you try and alter the main tenant of the contract by small print like the EULA, you're not going to get anywhere. This isn't the case in stuff like Photoshop, where it's clear that the basic agreement's for non-commercial use.

really, dont pull that "well but for photoshop its clear" bullshit, its perfectly clear in this clause:

C. exploit the Game or any of its parts, including without limitation the Game Client, for any commercial purpose, including without limitation (a) use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site without the express written consent of Blizzard; (b) for gathering in-game currency, items or resources for sale outside the Game; or (c) performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling;

.... and a terms of service clause, even though you think is ignorable.

A. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard.

there are no if, then, or buts this is part of the LICENSE AGREEMENT not terms of use, just as applications such as photoshop would have. you cant try to defend yourself in court saying the license agreement stating XX wasnt clear enough when you accepted it agreeing you read and fully understood what you are agreeing to. it is clear as day that you are not to exploit anything in the game for outside currency.

Just...no. Really. No. Counterexample: Say I take a picture of your property and then sell it. Is that theft? No. Say I rent a house and then sublet it. Is that theft or illegal? No. You most definately can make a profit off something you don't own. Alledging otherwise is simply wrong, as those two counter examples of different kinds show, and there are plenty of others - parody, for example. Reviews of stuff make money off something you don't own, ffs!

your examples are just as bad. you apparently did not understand what i was saying. it is common sense when you sell something in real life that is not yours, it is theft. it is theft because you did not own that house, car, whatever it may be. taking a picture of a house, or making money off of a review is not altering direct ownership and possession of the object. electronically, it is somewhat different since in most cases, you essentially can not actually lose a possession when it is exported, sold, etc because well, it is digitalized. even though blizzard is not losing ownership of that gold, since it would transfer to another account, it is still theft in that the gold is directly involved. you can sell a picture of a house, but the house is still owned by the homeowner... you sell someone your gold, the gold physically changes who possesses not owns it. go ahead and try to argue you cant steal gold since its just code and ill say the same thing about 3d models since its all digital.

 

[Captain Griffen]

this has no relevance to the conversation, i never mentioned anything about advertisement.

If it has no relevance, your post was entirely off-topic, so I recommend you stop posting.

really, dont pull that "well but for photoshop its clear" bullshit, its perfectly clear in this clause:

C. exploit the Game or any of its parts, including without limitation the Game Client, for any commercial purpose, including without limitation (a) use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site without the express written consent of Blizzard; (b) for gathering in-game currency, items or resources for sale outside the Game; or (c) performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling;

.... and a terms of service clause, even though you think is ignorable.

A. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard.

there are no if, then, or buts this is part of the LICENSE AGREEMENT not terms of use, just as applications such as photoshop would have. you cant try to defend yourself in court saying the license agreement stating XX wasnt clear enough when you accepted it agreeing you read and fully understood what you are agreeing to. it is clear as day that you are not to exploit anything in the game for outside currency.

Except that the EULA comes after the basic contractual agreement has been reached, an offer made and then accepted. Hence it cannot be overriden by the EULA. This isn't the case with software licenses, as they lay it out upfront.

your examples are just as bad. you apparently did not understand what i was saying. it is common sense when you sell something in real life that is not yours, it is theft. it is theft because you did not own that house, car, whatever it may be. taking a picture of a house, or making money off of a review is not altering direct ownership and possession of the object. electronically, it is somewhat different since in most cases, you essentially can not actually lose a possession when it is exported, sold, etc because well, it is digitalized. even though blizzard is not losing ownership of that gold, since it would transfer to another account, it is still theft in that the gold is directly involved. you can sell a picture of a house, but the house is still owned by the homeowner... you sell someone your gold, the gold physically changes who possesses not owns it. go ahead and try to argue you cant steal gold since its just code and ill say the same thing about 3d models since its all digital.

Are you selling the gold? Or are you selling the use of the gold? You do in fact own the use of the gold, I'm arguing, as part of the basic contractual agreement with Blizzard formed pre-EULA stage. And that can then be sold.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

If it has no relevance, your post was entirely off-topic, so I recommend you stop posting.

maybe you should stop posting, as you failed to clarify what you are talking about. i have never once stated anything about the legality of advertisement of any kind, but of the legality of the acts it is promoting.

Except that the EULA comes after the basic contractual agreement has been reached, an offer made and then accepted. Hence it cannot be overriden by the EULA. This isn't the case with software licenses, as they lay it out upfront.

this comment fails in all ways as well. for one, you are trying to say an end user agreement has no authority what so ever. while you are wrong, fine i will just directly look at the first agreement. Also, a video game IS a software license, apparently you are not aware of that. When you buy a game, the software is being licensed to you. There is absolutely nothing being overwritten or taken away to the user from the first agreement and the second. the first agreement you acknowledge you can not sell virtual goods in the game as they are owned or licensed by Blizzard. The EULA extends that clarification in the end user agreement, both "lay it up front".

NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU SHALL HAVE NO OWNERSHIP OR OTHER PROPERTY INTEREST IN THE ACCOUNT, AND YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL RIGHTS IN AND TO THE ACCOUNT ARE AND SHALL FOREVER BE OWNED BY AND INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF BLIZZARD.

Blizzard does not recognize the transfer of WoW Accounts or Blizzard Accounts (each an "Account"). You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Blizzard owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including without limitation the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, or any other attributes associated with the Account or stored on the Service. Blizzard does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything that appears or originates in the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell in-game items or currency for "real" money, or exchange those items or currency for value outside of the Game.

Are you selling the gold? Or are you selling the use of the gold? You do in fact own the use of the gold, I'm arguing, as part of the basic contractual agreement with Blizzard formed pre-EULA stage. And that can then be sold.

So, if I am renting a car I have the right to sell the car to someone? Ok, because thats exactly what you are saying. you own the right to use the car, but not sell it to someone or sell someone else the right to use it.

I am finished wasting my time arguing to you over something when you will believe what you want regardless. A game is a software license, a program like photoshop is a software license, both have the same TYPE of license agreement, only a game like WoW extends that agreement with a terms of service while playing the game, therefor in an license agreement you are legally bound. the clauses I have listed throughout this thread were both in the license agreement, and the terms of use. i have no need to further prove my side as you will keep believing what you want, when i have listed dozens of clauses specifically mentioning both virtual selling of objects in game for outside currency and ownership rights.

 

[~Void~]

Shut up. Just shut the fuck up. WoW models look like shit in WC3, so even if it was legal to upload them, whoever does should be euthanized.

 

[X.e.r.e.X]

Shut up. Just shut the fuck up. WoW models look like shit in WC3, so even if it was legal to upload them, whoever does should be euthanized.

Finally some sense in this thread.

My advice is that follow Void's advice >_>

 

[Viikuna]

I think the real question is, how important is this discussion about the use of WoW models?

Would it be so terrible, if people could just decide by themselves whether to use WoW models or not?

 

[Captain Griffen]

xXx-Tricky-xXx, you know what? Just stfu if you're going to use strawmen. It just makes you look like an idiot to anyone with half a brain.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

xXx-Tricky-xXx, you know what? Just stfu if you're going to use strawmen. It just makes you look like an idiot to anyone with half a brain.

really? because i believe that comment just made YOU look like an idiot if all you have left is acts of hostility which further proves it.

 

[TheDivineBoss]

It's hilarious to see two people doing a 1on1 provoke/flame-battle one and a half page long, about some stupid lost cause.

No kids, bad kids, you aint getting your legal WoW-rip models.

 

[Darkholme]

its ridiculous how often it keeps coming back to random comments like this.

No kids, bad kids, you aint getting your legal WoW-rip models.

It's not about trying to convince people to allow wow-rips with the things youve been arguing against.

My argument wasthat you're 'legality' defense was flimsy, pathetic, and should be dropped, though the other points may be valid. I was pointing out. I wasn't saying they should be allowed, just that the defense of legality issues is questionable at best and using it repeatedly makes you seem like an idiot.

xXx - Tricky - xXx makes the point that if you accept the argument of legal issues on WoW export models, it's very hypocritical to be in support of a contract violation that blizzard actually gives a shit about.

at least dont be a hypocrite. You want to avoid wow models. You want to support wow exploiting for money. so youre against something of questionable legality, and for something that is definitely illegal. fine, do it, but youre giving up your moral and legal high-ground.

Am I against digital piracy or breach of contract for profit? Not particularly, I don't care one way or another about that particluar issue, but I'm not being a hypocrite about it. Nobody gets hurt from either of those two things, not in any way that doesnt require a great deal of abstraction and arguig, so they are unimportant as far as I'm concerned.

Again, I restate for any idiot who isnt paying attention, I'm not in support of WoW models on Hive. I just check this thread occasionally because its so damn interesting, and some people say the most retarded things here.

 

[LordDz]

Why don't ya all send blizzard an email? ^^

 

[Darkholme]

Why don't ya all send blizzard an email? ^^

It's been tried. They don't give a direct answer. they send a cookie cutter email that doesnt actually answer anything.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

xXx - Tricky - xXx makes the point that if you accept the argument of legal issues on WoW export models, it's very hypocritical to be in support of a contract violation that blizzard actually gives a shit about.

at least dont be a hypocrite. You want to avoid wow models. You want to support wow exploiting for money. so youre against something of questionable legality, and for something that is definitely illegal. fine, do it, but youre giving up your moral and legal high-ground.

*sigh* Darkholme, wish I could have worded it the way you did for the most part from the start instead of posting endlessly trying to prove a point that everyone wants to blindly look away from.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Except copyright law everywhere agrees that WoW model rips are illegal, whereas for gold trading you only have a EULA, which may or may not be legal depending upon the juristiction. One is definition illegal, but it's not the one THW is indirectly supporting.

Blizzard giving a shit or not doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to what they can enforce by a EULA. Particularly since the EULA isn't on the box which is a contract they enter into with you before you even get the EULA.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

It's been tried. They don't give a direct answer. they send a cookie cutter email that doesnt actually answer anything.

Well the machinima department don't. Its apparently not illigeal, as long as the map isn't being sold.

I understand that WoW models might not be allowed to be distributed on this site, because many people would try to claim credits for Blizzards work, not to mention that the file sizes are huuuuuuge!

I went ahead and exported and converted a few models (Pre WoTLK patch) and sent them pictures of the results. They said they liked them and passed them on to the community team to take a look at. =)

I would just like to clear this up once and hopefully for all!

 

[brad.dude03]

Not really. We still don't allow them because we don't think it's the ethical use of their content, and because we support real user-generated content.

 

[BlinkBoy]

it's illegal by just extracting them, but blizzard won't take action unless you try to sell the map or the models.

 

[Captain Griffen]

"we don't currently see any reason" means "we don't want to say no, since we're PR and that'd look bad, but if we say yes the manager and all his lawyers are going to fry us slowly over the fire, so we're not going to answer".

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Not really. We still don't allow them because we don't think it's the ethical use of their content, and because we support real user-generated content.

Thats what I said, real user content. Most models on here are based on something from Wacraft III and so really I don't (Apart from the M2 --> MDX conversion isnt good - resulting in huge filesize and lots of uneeded things + high polly) really see why user-generated content from WoW is not allowed.

it's illegal by just extracting them, but blizzard won't take action unless you try to sell the map or the models.

Nah its not I don't think, firstly because Machinima is the result of exporting models and secondly because I'm sure Blizzard would have said in the e-mail. Also it would be illegal to extract Warcraft III models out of the MPQs and use them for models, but this site still exists, so I highly doubt its illegal to use WoW models.

I am not saying this site should support it, they can choose what they like. I am just hopefully clarifying that they are not indeed anymore illegal that exporting Wacraft III models out of the game and making user generated content out of them.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Thats what I said, real user content. Most models on here are based on something from Wacraft III and so really I don't (Apart from the M2 --> MDX conversion isnt good - resulting in huge filesize and lots of uneeded things + high polly) really see why user-generated content from WoW is not allowed.

Because the models we're talking about aren't user-generated? As in, they're made by Blizzard?

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Because the models we're talking about aren't user-generated? As in, they're made by Blizzard?

And basing models on Wacraft III (Blizzard's) models is more user generated than basing them off of WoW exports.

I'm not saying that pure exports are user generated.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

And basing models on Wacraft III (Blizzard's) models is more user generated than basing them off of WoW exports.

I'm not saying that pure exports are user generated.

I'm pretty sure pure exports are the topic at hand.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

Except copyright law everywhere agrees that WoW model rips are illegal, whereas for gold trading you only have a EULA, which may or may not be legal depending upon the juristiction. One is definition illegal, but it's not the one THW is indirectly supporting.

Blizzard giving a shit or not doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to what they can enforce by a EULA. Particularly since the EULA isn't on the box which is a contract they enter into with you before you even get the EULA.

actually this is wrong. if you want to argue that a EULA has no jurisdiction then the exact same thing can be said of copyright infringement. not every country has the same copyright standards if any at all. Case in example, the United States and China. While China may have also signed the treaty of Berne Convention, if you have ever BEEN to China, you would copyrighted material being clearly copied and sold in legitimate stores and shops. When you walk into an electronics store and see a large bin of obviously duplicated disks and art boxes selling for a few dollars a piece you still want to argue that copyright law everywhere is ironclad?

Another case is the United States. Not every country agreed to every term of the treaty. In fact, the United States gives little to no protection from infringement of moral rights due to its fair use policy. The United States was the only one to not recognize the moral rights clause while signing the treaty therefor not every country abides and agrees to every copyright standard.

Not really. We still don't allow them because we don't think it's the ethical use of their content, and because we support real user-generated content.

oh bullshit, this site cant pull the ethics card when it supports advertising of something blizzard strongly goes against. did you know, a majority of this user-generated content is actually blizzard modified content... so would that be called something like user-modified-models-of-copyrighted content.

t's illegal by just extracting them, but blizzard won't take action unless you try to sell the map or the models.

extracting copyrighted material for a game is not an infringement if it is for of personal use only just how extracting mp3's from a cd you buy to your computer is legal. redistribution however is illegal but as you said... does blizzard care or not... or better yet do they support the use of wow models in wc3, we may never know since no rep has clearly stated. the use of copyrighted material for a wc3 map is most likely not even an infringement at all due to the fact it is only a minor use. i believe there is some French phrase for this exception, but i cant remember it since it has been a while since my intro to law class.

"we don't currently see any reason" means "we don't want to say no, since we're PR and that'd look bad, but if we say yes the manager and all his lawyers are going to fry us slowly over the fire, so we're not going to answer".

really? you know this as a fact, are you some kind of psychic? while I may not be, i would say it meant they have not had any legality problems thus far with the use of blizzard owned content from other games being used for wc3 modding purposes.

 

[Captain Griffen]

oh bullshit, this site cant pull the ethics card when it supports advertising of something blizzard strongly goes against

Epic retard quote of the year.

 

[HappyTauren]

Put it in your sig or you suck.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

did you know, a majority of this user-generated content is actually blizzard modified content... so would that be called something like user-modified-models-of-copyrighted content.

No, it's Warcraft III modified content. We're taking models from WC3 and putting them back into...WC3.

And the site doesn't prohibit models from other games. It prohibits unaltered models from other games. Any model modified to an acceptable degree can be considered.

• No models directly exported from games other than Warcraft III will be accepted.
• This prohibition includes, but is not limited to, World of Warcraft®.
• Models exported from other games may be accepted if the model editor has significantly modified the file.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

Epic retard quote of the year.

its retarded because its true? i believe your making yourself look retarded.

No, it's Warcraft III modified content. We're taking models from WC3 and putting them back into...WC3.

And the site doesn't prohibit models from other games. It prohibits unaltered models from other games. Any model modified to an acceptable degree can be considered.

Well, I wasn't referring to it being an infringement to edit and put in your map. I am simply stating that when you slightly edit an actual Wc3 model and upload it to Hive, it is still a Wc3 copyrighted model you altered that is now available to download for even people who do not have the game. However, it is firmly assumed Blizzard has allowed 'fair use' of copyrighted material for modding purposes for Wc3.

 

[Captain Griffen]

So you are saying whatever Blizzard is strongly against is immoral? So not buying and playing WoW is immoral? Buying DoWII and not SCII is immoral?

 

[Elenai]

You know what, to put it bluntly:

"WoW rips are not allowed because we said so, if you don't like it, gtfo."

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

So you are saying whatever Blizzard is strongly against is immoral? So not buying and playing WoW is immoral? Buying DoWII and not SCII is immoral?

your ignorance is appalling, your comment has no relevance to anything I had said... if you actually read the post, its obvious I was referring to the ADVERTISEMENT ads for misuse of exploiting their games for profit that has been clearly stated they do not support nor want you to do. attempting to twist the meaning of a quote for your benefit will only further show your stupidity and your need to argue just to argue.

You know what, to put it bluntly:

"WoW rips are not allowed because we said so, if you don't like it, gtfo."

this is most likely a true statement and I have no problem with it. I am merely debating that the reasoning behind the limitations of exported models of other games is not because of morals but rather because the admin "just says so". if it was about morals, then there would be no gold advertisements all over the site.

 

[HappyTauren]

No matter how much I hate it, and no matter how extraordinarily rare it is, I have to agree with Elenai on this one.

 

[Kuhneghetz]

If we allowed WoW models, the model database will be it's own version of EpicWar.com. A complete upload dump waste.

And Kimberly's and Deathbringer's posts in earlier pages makes valid points.
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/228896-post14.html
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/230906-post31.html

 

[Captain Griffen]

your ignorance is appalling, your comment has no relevance to anything I had said... if you actually read the post, its obvious I was referring to the ADVERTISEMENT ads for misuse of exploiting their games for profit that has been clearly stated they do not support nor want you to do. attempting to twist the meaning of a quote for your benefit will only further show your stupidity and your need to argue just to argue.

You setup the proposition that if it is against the wishes of Blizzard, it is immoral. I disproved it by counterexample.

It's called 'logic'.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

You setup the proposition that if it is against the wishes of Blizzard, it is immoral. I disproved it by counterexample.

It's called 'logic'.

wrong, my proposition was you cant justify saying "this site doesn't allow those models because its unethical use of blizzard property" when in turn it supports the advertisement of gold selling which is very unethical since its not your property to sell. maybe if you were smart enough to read the quote I was replying to, it is not my fault if you interpret something incorrectly due to your own negligence.

No matter how much I hate it, and no matter how extraordinarily rare it is, I have to agree with Elenai on this one.

as do I, but I am attempting to rid this false belief WoW models are not allowed because the site owner(s) thinks it is "bad, illegal, or ethically wrong".

 

[Captain Griffen]

wrong, my proposition was you cant justify saying "this site doesn't allow those models because its unethical use of blizzard property" when in turn it supports the advertisement of gold selling which is very unethical since its not your property to sell. maybe if you were smart enough to read the quote I was replying to, it is not my fault if you interpret something incorrectly due to your own negligence.

That's not what you said. It's not my fault if you can't speak English properly.

Anyway, the use of it is yours to sell, since you buy the use of that. Rather like subletting. The new owner has the same rights to the gold as the person selling it - implying that either, a) no ownership change has taken place, or b) the gold seller owned it in the first place.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

That's not what you said. It's not my fault if you can't speak English properly.

neither did i say everything blizzard is against is immoral, not my fault you cant read English properly.

Anyway, the use of it is yours to sell, since you buy the use of that. Rather like subletting. The new owner has the same rights to the gold as the person selling it - implying that either, a) no ownership change has taken place, or b) the gold seller owned it in the first place.

this is not about whether gold selling is legal or not. you can argue wow models are illegal, i can argue they are not. you can argue gold selling is legal, i can argue it is not. in the end, neither of us is going to who is right or wrong... anyway, blizzard as stated in many clauses you are not to exchange anything virtual in the game for outside currency. this means blizzard does not want you doing it. users claiming the site does not allow wow models because it is immoral to use without blizzard permission is pure stupidity when they advertise gold selling which blizzard has stated you do not have permission to do nor do they want you to do it. So it is immoral to use wow models for wc3 without blizzards permission, but it is fine to exploit virtual objects for profit even after they strongly prohibit it. yeah, where is the logic in that?

 

[Captain Griffen]

neither did i say everything blizzard is against is immoral, not my fault you cant read English properly.

Yet that is a hidden premise in:

this is not about whether gold selling is legal or not. you can argue wow models are illegal, i can argue they are not. you can argue gold selling is legal, i can argue it is not. in the end, neither of us is going to who is right or wrong... anyway, blizzard as stated in many clauses you are not to exchange anything virtual in the game for outside currency. this means blizzard does not want you doing it. users claiming the site does not allow wow models because it is immoral to use without blizzard permission is pure stupidity when they advertise gold selling which blizzard has stated you do not have permission to do nor do they want you to do it. So it is immoral to use wow models for wc3 without blizzards permission, but it is fine to exploit virtual objects for profit even after they strongly prohibit it. yeah, where is the logic in that?

Or you just don't get copyright law.

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

Yet that is a hidden premise in:



Or you just don't get copyright law.

no, i believe YOU do not fully understand copyright laws or license agreements which is why i gave up trying to explain it to you after it became apparent.

 

[brad.dude03]

Actually, Griffen being the Oxford student I'd have to say that it's really you making the inane statements here. Griffen knows more about law than anyone else on these forums.

 

[Captain Griffen]

I know enough to know anyone being certain on copyright law or the enforceability of contracts (especially over multiple juristictions) is talking out of their arse (and usually being paid to *glares at RIAA*).

 

[shamanyouranus]

It doesn't matter what copyright law says. This site does not allow WoW models for the same reason that it does not allow models from other games: 1) You did not make the model. 2) It would promote the uploading of ripped models (which would turn the hive into another XGM).

 

[xXx-Tricky-xXx]

I know enough to know anyone being certain on copyright law or the enforceability of contracts (especially over multiple juristictions) is talking out of their arse (and usually being paid to *glares at RIAA*).

who is this person you speak of? i have never stated absolute certainty of neither copyright law or contracts. i have stated a license agreement can be and usually is legally binding when exploiting profit through a breach of the agreement. I was making the point there was that in terms of theft, there is no difference between stolen copyrighted material and exploiting profit from blizzard owned property, they are both still theft. you can not lease a car that is currently being leased to you without the lessors permission. this fits well with gold selling, you stated a few posts above you pay to use the gold, if you are paying to use the gold, then you cant sell the use of the gold you are paying to use to another person for profit without blizzards permission. Just as you argue EULA legality depends on jurisdiction, copyright law is not ironclad either. Even though nations signed and agreed to the same treaty, each nation does not have to recognize every article given. case in example the United States with moral rights and its fair use policy. Also, I am sure you have heard the phrase, "the law does not care about insignificant things" when it comes to copyright infringement. Whether or not extracting wow models for wc3 fits in that category is debatable.

I realize the United States enforces these contracts more than other nations but the exact same thing can be said of copyright protection in the opposite way. Legality and enforcing are two different matters. If a license agreement has no authority in a country, then that in return would mean the licensor has no obligation to uphold its own to the consumer. If that is the case, then infringement of copyrighted material in your country may not be an infringement at all in my country considering each nation was not obligated to recognize every article of the first treaty. Legality and enforcing are two different matters. In China and Mexico, copyright infringement is illegal, yet it is not enforced. It is very apparent while seeing pirated and copyrighted material being sold on front shelves. Does that mean its legal since it is not enforced? No.

I believe the better question is what are the laws where the server is currently located. However, this is not what I am here in this forum for. As my very first post implied, I came here to debate the legitimacy behind the reasoning of the restriction of wow models when morality and legality were not factors because of its website advertisement and not whether gold selling is legal or not in your country.

i am using the comparison of wow exports and gold selling as a perfect example of hypocrisy this site has radiantly displayed. or would you rather me use something more cliche such as "its bad to kill someone, but ok during war". Justification is viewed in the eye of the beholder.

 

[shamanyouranus]

huge message! he means business