The importance of geometry in WC3

[Dr Super Good]

You guys are aware this is taught at high school when you are about 13 years old? Unlike English, this is why Mathematics is one of the most useful courses you do at school and why you should have tried your best at it.

 

[Bribe]

It depends on if the teacher/student cared about the class and if the student could process it. I had many students do quite poorly with geometry (and any math, for that matter). Some of my classmates were asking me basic questions that we learned in the first week even until the end of the semester. I don't know how applicable my situation is for my school, district, state or country, but it wouldn't surprise me as those kids were great at other subjects. Some people just aren't good at Math.

 

[Spellbound]

You guys are aware this is taught at high school when you are about 13 years old? Unlike English, this is why Mathematics is one of the most useful courses you do at school and why you should have tried your best at it.

You are aware that plenty of people hate mathematics, right? Just because something is useful later in life (even then, who needs to understand trigonometry to function in their day-to-day life unless their jobs demand it???) you can't expected teenagers to be mindful about something like that, and that's not to mention that people forget things later in life.

Also not sure about that jab at English. It's the most common second language in the world, how can it be not useful?

 

[Dr Super Good]

You are aware that plenty of people hate mathematics, right? Just because something is useful later in life (even then, who needs to understand trigonometry to function in their day-to-day life unless their jobs demand it???) you can't expected teenagers to be mindful about something like that, and that's not to mention that people forget things later in life.

There is no reason to hate it though... At high school level the subject is easy and logical to understand.

Also not sure about that jab at English. It's the most common second language in the world, how can it be not useful?

If you ever did English as a course you would understand. I would much rather do 5 times the Mathematics if I did not have to do English. For those of you who were fortunate to not do English the course basically teaches you nothing about how to speak, read or write English at all and instead asks social and fashion questions with seemingly random answers.

 

[Spellbound]

There is no reason to hate it though... At high school level the subject is easy and logical to understand.

You can't expect people to just like something just because you think it's easy. It's logical, yes, but a lot of people find it annoying. Not everyone likes numbers. If you're an artsy person, you probably dislike mathematics and logic puzzles and things like that.

If you ever did English as a course you would understand. I would much rather do 5 times the Mathematics if I did not have to do English. For those of you who were fortunate to not do English the course basically teaches you nothing about how to speak, read or write English at all and instead asks social and fashion questions with seemingly random answers.

English was my favourite subject at school - idk what kind of English classes you had but mine actually taught me to understand the language better. It wasn't as enlightening as i'd like it to be, but I was relatively good at it, just like I assume you love mathematics because you're good at it. I'd rather do 5 times the English if I did not have to do Mathematics. Different people, different likes. I'm not a native English speaker, btw, so that is also probably a factor.

 

[Wietlol]

You can't expect people to just like something just because you think it's easy. It's logical, yes, but a lot of people find it annoying. Not everyone likes numbers. If you're an artsy person, you probably dislike mathematics and logic puzzles and things like that.

Still doesnt explain why they hate it.
People just dont like school. Which means that they dont pay attention in class which leads to situations like this where someone has to be taught 1+2=3.

There are enough people who dont like numbers, but there will be a lot of things in life that you wont like but still have to do.

 

[Spellbound]

No one has problems doing 1+2. You'll have to admit trigonometry is a tad more complicated than that. Calculating distances and angles between co-ordinates makes even less sense, so I think this is an unfair comparison. Basic mathematics is always useful. trig? Unless your job demands it, not really. Don't get me wrong, anything you learn in math class can become useful at one point, but, y'know, priorities; people generally cram their brain with knowledge other than how to do complicated mathematics, not to mention some people don't have a mind for numbers.

Plenty of people hate maths. I don't know why, they just do. For my part, it just felt like a pointless grind. What do I care who has how many oranges more that who? I'd much rather write you an essay, tell you a story - I'm good at that! (I was still garbage at English then, but relatively speaking, I was ahead of my classmates since they all wrote like 6-year olds).

The internet seems tho think people hate math because teachers fail to express interest in it. Sounds like sound assessment to me.

 

[Spellbound]

Really?

AB^2 + AC^2 = BC^2
<A = 90°
Tan(<B) = AC/AB
Tan(<C) = AB/AC

Yes, really. Most people would take one look at that and move on. 1+2 is very simple. This requires 'translation'. You're comfortable with math in the same way a person would be comfortable with a language they know. You can't expect everybody else to like/understand a language just because you do.

 

[Wietlol]

"language they know"

 

[Spellbound]

Your point?

 

[Wietlol]

Because you dont know english, neither do I, nor do I know dutch (my native language).
I dont know JASS, I dont know Java, I dont know C++.
Languages are too big to just know them.

For example someone once told me he knew 90% of a language... and he really thought so until I showed him he only knew 1% of it.

Math, art, programming, project management, history, etc can also be considered a language (simply looking at the perspective of the human eye).
Noone knows the language really, but we all are able to use it no matter what.

Im not good in maths, no matter how impressed people are with how much I do know about it and how much I use it, but I simply take the time to understand why something is why and how things work out.
I can literally speak every language in the world.

My point being remains that noone hates maths because it is maths.
People just refuse to take a step to learn what is happening.
And in my opinion, that is really stupid.

 

[Dr Super Good]

No one has problems doing 1+2. You'll have to admit trigonometry is a tad more complicated than that.

No one has problems doing trigonometry. You'll have to admit solving systems of differential equations or matrices of complex numbers is a tad more complicated than that.

Calculating distances and angles between co-ordinates makes even less sense, so I think this is an unfair comparison.

It makes perfect sense once you do vector mathematics, which is also taught at highschool after you do simple trigonometry. It also makes sense once you cover complex numbers but that might only be touched by some advanced highschool courses (eg Advanced Higher mathematics in Scotland) and is usually left up to Universities to teach.

people generally cram their brain with knowledge other than how to do complicated mathematics, not to mention some people don't have a mind for numbers.

Yeh such as which team won the 2014 world cup. Very useful...

I'd much rather write you an essay, tell you a story - I'm good at that! (I was still garbage at English then, but relatively speaking, I was ahead of my classmates since they all wrote like 6-year olds).

Too bad English does not care much about how well you can write. Until recently you could get good marks writing your entire assessments in text speak. Half the assessments are run on accented English which is not only grammatically incorrect but also incorrectly spelt. All in all I learnt nothing from English about English. It is not even like I was in the slow class, I sat the Standard Grade Credit level English. Seeing how it was such a waste of time and would not help me at all you can be very sure I did not take Higher English. My parents taught me all my English in the end.

The internet seems tho think people hate math because teachers fail to express interest in it. Sounds like sound assessment to me.

They need to express interest in it? Education is not a funfair ride, you go there every day expecting to learn and mathematics does just that. I do admit the homework amounts were stupid but I guess they were aimed at people who could not learn so needed to add 1+1 or sin(x) + sin(y) a thousand times to understand it.

 

[LordDz]

I'll just drop this here.

 

[Bribe]

I have moved the math discussion to this thread from http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/world-editor-help-zone-98/move-unit-x-y-270713/

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I'll just drop this here.

Cheers!

I had 4 semesters of advanced mathematics at university. And I still don't know shit about mathematics.

Pic related.

 

[Spellbound]

Because you dont know english, neither do I, nor do I know dutch (my native language).
I dont know JASS, I dont know Java, I dont know C++.
Languages are too big to just know them.

... then the word 'know' shouldn't be used at all if you're going to dance around semantics like that. The point I'm making is that you shouldn't expect people to love the same thing you do just because it's useful. Like, what are we even arguing here? PLENTY of people hate mathematics, that's a fact. It's irrelevant how simple any of you think whatever mathematical exercises are easy or not, many people think they are hard, at least at first glance, and that's enough to make them hate it. And so they do.

No one has problems doing trigonometry. You'll have to admit solving systems of differential equations or matrices of complex numbers is a tad more complicated than that.

Trig is a step up 1+2=3 in terms of complexity, and I know adults who don't know trigonometry. I was one of them not very long ago, and had to relearn everything because I had forgotten. Calling trig simple because something harder exists is like saying you can't complain about anything because someone, somewhere, is in a worse situation than you.

It makes perfect sense once you do vector mathematics, which is also taught at highschool after you do simple trigonometry. It also makes sense once you cover complex numbers but that might only be touched by some advanced highschool courses (eg Advanced Higher mathematics in Scotland) and is usually left up to Universities to teach.

Complicated. People already hating it even more.

Yeh such as which team won the 2014 world cup. Very useful...

People love what they love. You love math, they don't.

Too bad English does not care much about how well you can write. Until recently you could get good marks writing your entire assessments in text speak. Half the assessments are run on accented English which is not only grammatically incorrect but also incorrectly spelt. All in all I learnt nothing from English about English. It is not even like I was in the slow class, I sat the Standard Grade Credit level English. Seeing how it was such a waste of time and would not help me at all you can be very sure I did not take Higher English. My parents taught me all my English in the end.

I enjoy writing more than I like playing around with numbers. This isn't going to change because math is 'more useful'.

They need to express interest in it? Education is not a funfair ride, you go there every day expecting to learn and mathematics does just that. I do admit the homework amounts were stupid but I guess they were aimed at people who could not learn so needed to add 1+1 or sin(x) + sin(y) a thousand times to understand it.

Then why on Earth do you expect people to love math then??? If you want someone interested in a topic... make it interesting, maybe? Make it, idk, fun? I'm not saying math isn't useful, I'm just saying plenty. of. people. don't. like. it.

 

[Retera]

Instead of debating whether it's OK to hate math, why not just make a thread teaching people the math they need that is relevant to a fun and exciting experience Warcraft modding?

We could have examples like the VortexPull JASS function I wrote while taking Geometry/Trig in high school years ago, which is in Heaven's Fall as a Freezing Legion "Vortex" hero ability. Like, I'm pretty sure my score on exams that semester probably went up, just from the exciting practice I got writing that ability code.

High school funtimes

function VortexPull takes nothing returns nothing
local timer t=GetExpiredTimer()
local unit victim=GetEnumUnit()
local unit vortex=GetAttachedUnit(t,"timerunit")
local unit cast=GetAttachedUnit(t,"timercaster")
local real x1=GetUnitX(vortex)
local real y1=GetUnitY(vortex)
local real dy=GetUnitY(victim)-y1
local real dx=GetUnitX(victim)-x1
local real inwardv=2000
local real tanv=-2
local real r=SquareRoot(dy*dy+dx*dx)
local real ang=Acos(dx/(r))
local real x3//=Cos(Acos((x2-x1)/(SquareRoot((y2-y1)*(y2-y1)+(x2-x1)*(x2-x1))))-(2*bj_DEGTORAD))*(SquareRoot((y2-y1)*(y2-y1)+(x2-x1)*(x2-x1))-2)+x1
local real y3//=Sin(Asin((y2-y1)/(SquareRoot((y2-y1)*(y2-y1)+(x2-x1)*(x2-x1))))-(2*bj_DEGTORAD))*(SquareRoot((y2-y1)*(y2-y1)+(x2-x1)*(x2-x1))-2)+y1
if (victim!=vortex) and victim!=cast then
if dy<0 then
set ang=-ang
endif
set dx=(inwardv/r)
if dx>4 then
set dx=4
endif
set dy=(tanv/(r))
set x3=Cos(ang+dy)*(r-dx)+x1
set y3=Sin(ang+dy)*(r-dx)+y1
call CS_MoveUnit(victim,x3,y3)
endif
set victim=null
set vortex=null
set t=null
set cast=null
endfunction

 

[Spellbound]

The initial thread sort of went into why people don't know trig, and my answer was that people just don't like math. I wouldn't say it's ok to hate it, but people like what they like, and math is often presented in a way that's more annoying than helpful. So people hate it.

 

[Kino]

If you dont use it, you lose it.
Geometry was by far my favourite mathematics subject while I was schooling.
6++ years of not using it and nowadays I need google to remind myself what real simple stuff like Pythagoras theorem is all about, lol.

 

[Flux]

If you dont use it, you lose it.
Geometry was by far my favourite mathematics subject while I was schooling.
6++ years of not using it and nowadays I need google to remind myself what real simple stuff like Pythagoras theorem is all about, lol.

You don't use Pythagoras Theorem in map making??

 

[Spellbound]

If you dont use it, you lose it.
Geometry was by far my favourite mathematics subject while I was schooling.
6++ years of not using it and nowadays I need google to remind myself what real simple stuff like Pythagoras theorem is all about, lol.

"If you dont use it, you lose it." too true. I had to relearn Pythagoras as well because I had forgotten how it was, since ye olde days of school.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Every day I see stuff like this on facebook or public forums:

... and then everyone goes nuts in the comments "LOL, just like me LOL!".


And I wonder...

... when... yes, WHEN did being bad at maths become COOL? Why is it en vogue to be bad a mathematics? Why are people proud to be bad at maths? Shouldn't they rather be ashamed of themselves? Why is it cool to be bad at maths, but not at geography or history? If you suck in those, people will tell you that you are an uneducated scrub. If you suck at maths, people praise you for being a rebel. It's fucked up!

 

[Spellbound]

This could be seen as a symptom of why people hate it: math has a 'marketing' issue. If you make it fun and compelling, then kids will respond positively (one can hope). I don't remember math ever being either fun or compelling, so it's likely why people don't care, and as such you have 'Aliens don't wear purple hats' parodies because all people remember when learning math were being presented with convoluted problems to solve.

And yeah, kinda fucked up that people are proud of being bad at math. I was always kinda embarrassed about not being particularly 'mathemathically-minded', so to see people thing being bad at math is sad to say the least.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

This could be seen as a symptom of why people hate it: math has a 'marketing' issue. If you make it fun and compelling, then kids will respond positively (one can hope). I don't remember math ever being either fun or compelling, so it's likely why people don't care, and as such you have 'Aliens don't wear purple hats' parodies because all people remember when learning math were being presented with convoluted problems to solve.

How is this different to any other subject? I don't remember history or geography classes to be fun or compelling. I don't remember french classes to be fun or compelling.
Maths has a severe image problem, yes. But I don't even see why that is. One of the most used (and dumbest) arguments is that "you never need maths in your life". Well, duh, you never need any other subject either. To "survive", all you need to know is how to eat and how to write the welfare claim. In fact, maths is probably the one subject you will need the most.

Teachers say "You are not learning for school, you are learning for life!".
Bullshit, I say!
You are learning to get a job better than shop assistant in your local clothes store.
You are learning to not end up doing grunt work on the construction site. Why should we deny that? We are not living in a cave, hunting mammoths anymore.
And yet even as a sales assistant it's good to know some basic maths. You will never get a promotion if you don't know maths. Even at the construction site it's good to know basic trigonometry and the pythagoras. Because this is what will allow you to take responsibility over others and get a better salary.
Maths is needed fucking everywhere. Because money is everywhere. You'd be surprised how many people can not even calculate how much 5% of 60$ is.

And then they complain when they get screwed over by people smarter than them. Money is everything is this world. If you are bad at maths, you are bad with money. And if you are bad with money, then GG, no re!

After all banks rule this world. Not governments, not nuclear missiles, not armies. Fucking banks!

Taking pride in being bad at maths is like saying "wow, look at me, being a mindless sheeple!".

 

[Xonok]

I'd say it's not that maths has an image problem, but rather that people are used to being able to get by without much effort. Maths is one of the areas where you have to be legitimately good to get good results and that takes effort. One doesn't pass maths through just natural talent. This in itself brings out a different and greater problem with our society - lack of a work ethic being taught.

Although the schools in the past were more harsh, they also provided teachers with the necessary power to carry out their duties. If student(s) didn't get educated, shit hit the fan quite bad, so there was no excuse for failure.
Nowadays though, teachers aren't allowed to do as much. Everyone is a little pink unicorn that must be pampered as if that's what life is all about. Everyone is expected to be enough of a person to make their own choices.
If that were true, I wouldn't be learning those things in school. I'd be learning them on my own to escape the inefficiencies that a public school system inherently creates.

 

[Wietlol]

@Zwiebelchen
If I have 14 apples and I equally give them to 7 people,
how many apples will I have them?

Spoiler

0 because the other 7 people have all apples now.

 

[Chaosy]

I am 18 and still don't understand Sin/Cos and Tan, though we had it in math (more than once), needless to say I failed those courses.

When I use it in (v)jass I always have to copy the calculation from PolarProjectionBJ
This only offers a limited number of geometric shapes I can create efficiently though, which is a bit sad for me.

 

[PurgeandFire]

@DSG: Funny story--I actually learned more about geometry and trig because of Wc3. I think games actually provide a really nice learning context--and the differences between 2D and 3D become clearer. The applications become more apparent too, e.g. polar coordinates, vector math, etc.

It'll take a while for things to click. A lot of times, it'll be a lot later than when you first took the course! We compartmentalize and forget things a lot (we switch contexts so quickly from semester to semester). It isn't until we use it again that our brains realize "oh... I should probably remember this". So I can't really blame people if they get tripped up on seemingly basic geometry or math. They probably just haven't used it in a while or haven't been exposed to it yet/properly. People have different backgrounds--some people take geometry in middle school, some take it in high school. Some people are taught things properly, others are taught poorly. It is always important to consider these things when giving help to others--making assumptions about their knowledge will not help in the long run.

For example, I had a professor who used a ton of mathematical notation in his proofs. After a while, he realized people were visibly confused by it--he had assumed that things like set notation and mathematical abbreviations (e.g. there-exists, for-all, etc.) were things you'd learn in elementary school. (he may or may not have been joking) Anyway, as soon as he dropped that assumption and explained the notation, things became so much easier to understand.

tl;dr it isn't necessarily a reflection of how well you've done, there are a ton of factors--and I can't really blame someone if they need an explanation from the ground up.

@Zwiebelchen: I agree. There is a weird stigma about being bad at math, and I think it partially has to do with people believing that they are "predestined" to be bad at math. Have you ever noticed how often people describe others with finality? "He is good at math. I am bad at math." I see the same thing in CS as well: "He is just a better programmer". While these statements can be true at a particular instance of time, a lot of people accept that they're simply not cut out for it--that you have to have been born a particular way to reach that level, so they just decide to stay away from it. The way you were exposed definitely matters, but it will forever be something that is taught--a developed skill, not an innate skill. People tend to lose sight of that as soon as they hit high school/uni.

 

[Spellbound]

How is this different to any other subject? I don't remember history or geography classes to be fun or compelling. I don't remember french classes to be fun or compelling.

Those are not subjects that people love, though. Plenty of people openly hate them, so it's kind of the same issue with math.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Those are not subjects that people love, though. Plenty of people openly hate them, so it's kind of the same issue with math.

And yet nobody runs around, taking pride in not knowing geography or history. People mostly feel embarrassed if you confront them with their bad history knowledge.
It's only mathematics where people wear the badge of being uneducated with pride. Physics is bad too, but way less frequent than maths.

@Zwiebelchen: I agree. There is a weird stigma about being bad at math, and I think it partially has to do with people believing that they are "predestined" to be bad at math. Have you ever noticed how often people describe others with finality? "He is good at math. I am bad at math." I see the same thing in CS as well: "He is just a better programmer". While these statements can be true at a particular instance of time, a lot of people accept that they're simply not cut out for it--that you have to have been born a particular way to reach that level, so they just decide to stay away from it. The way you were exposed definitely matters, but it will forever be something that is taught--a developed skill, not an innate skill. People tend to lose sight of that as soon as they hit high school/uni.

I agree that this has a lot to do with the "Never try to improve. ever!" mentality today.
It's the same when I try to encourage people to learn JASS. They just don't want to and instead tell themselves that they will never learn it, so why even try?
And in this process, they completely ignore that the impact of innate abilities or talents rarely even matters in the acquisation of any particular skill.

The problem is: as long as people take pride in being bad at something, they don't even have an incentive to improve. There is no shame, no embarrassement as a driving force to steer them into self-improvement.


And it's not only mathematics.
There are other situations where it's the same basic problem; especially overweight people. Yes, there are genetic dispositions that make it harder to stay in shape. However, how many of those people actually try to get of their arses and do something about it? Almost none. Because it's easier to force society to accept you as you are by putting them on a guilt trip. What? You don't like fat people? How dare you criticize my body image?

 

[Ezekiel12]

Albeit a discussion-worthy topic, if I could I would move this thread out of "The Lab".
*winks at moderators*

 

[Ceday]

What do they teach you at high school geometry class?In my country its all about funny triangle/rectangle/circle etc questions and important stuff like trigonometry/coordinates are topics of math class.

 

[Dr Super Good]

why not just make a thread teaching people the math they need that is relevant to a fun and exciting experience Warcraft modding?

Because Wikipedia and a thousand sites searchable by Google teach you that stuff. The fact people need to ask is kind of sad.

6++ years of not using it and nowadays I need google to remind myself what real simple stuff like Pythagoras theorem is all about, lol.

Exactly, you know about it and can quickly use it with a minute or two of reminder from the internet (something everyone posting here has access to). Why people even need to ask about simple trigonometry I do not understand.

 

[Wietlol]

"If you dont use it, you lose it"
If you dont use 1+2=3 then you lose it as well... however, EVERYONE uses it... no matter if you love maths or not

 

[Kino]

You don't use Pythagoras Theorem in map making??

You can (like everything else)
You dont have to.

Maths is needed fucking everywhere. Because money is everywhere. You'd be surprised how many people can not even calculate how much 5% of 60$ is.

If you dont use 1+2=3 then you lose it as well... however, EVERYONE uses it... no matter if you love maths or not

Which was kind of my point.
There is a huge leap in daily use (for a person in non math relevant fields) between arithmetic and geometry.
The math most commonly required in daily life is arithmetic and possibly some very basic algebra.

 

[sentrywiz]

The initial thread sort of went into why people don't know trig, and my answer was that people just don't like math. I wouldn't say it's ok to hate it, but people like what they like, and math is often presented in a way that's more annoying than helpful. So people hate it.

You said it, math is very often "presented" in an overtly complicated way, stacked with shit ton of book after book after book with conflicting information only to confuse the minds of those that want to learn. And that's how hate for math is born. Only because the teachers want to "show how much they know" instead of "show useful ways" to use it or show the "easy ways".

From elementary to university, you either get good teachers that show you the useful and easy parts of the subjects they teach or you get the shitty ones with daddy/mommy issues that want to impress you with how stupid you are in comparison to her/him. Atleast in my country, this is how it has been and still is. Its changing, slowly though. 15+ years later I find videos on youtube that teach such simple and enjoyable math for complicated things that my mind explodes with anger

Also, society and parents teach you from young age that "easy way is wrong" and "hard work is what pays off". Ironically, this is said by 99% of world politicians and government officials, corrupt to the bone who knew nothing of the words hard or work. But if you make the educational system a fucking maze of such confusion and conflict, most of the masses will either: give up or persevere and then become the shithead to reinforce the whole "i know more than you" propaganda.

I kind of went overboard. Anyway, I agree to most said here about math.

 

[Dr Super Good]

There is a huge leap in daily use (for a person in non math relevant fields) between arithmetic and geometry.
The math most commonly required in daily life is arithmetic and possibly some very basic algebra.

Actually the opposite is true. Geometry is implicitly used every day subconsciously almost all the time. Be it moving between classrooms or packing a cupboard you are using geometry. As such geometry is one of the most easy to learn fields of mathematics as it is the most natural and practical. It proves what most people learn naturally from going about daily life such as walking in a straight line is the shortest path or how to pack more into your cupboard etc.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

You said it, math is very often "presented" in an overtly complicated way, stacked with shit ton of book after book after book with conflicting information only to confuse the minds of those that want to learn. And that's how hate for math is born. Only because the teachers want to "show how much they know" instead of "show useful ways" to use it or show the "easy ways".

From elementary to university, you either get good teachers that show you the useful and easy parts of the subjects they teach or you get the shitty ones with daddy/mommy issues that want to impress you with how stupid you are in comparison to her/him. Atleast in my country, this is how it has been and still is. Its changing, slowly though. 15+ years later I find videos on youtube that teach such simple and enjoyable math for complicated things that my mind explodes with anger

Also, society and parents teach you from young age that "easy way is wrong" and "hard work is what pays off". Ironically, this is said by 99% of world politicians and government officials, corrupt to the bone who knew nothing of the words hard or work. But if you make the educational system a fucking maze of such confusion and conflict, most of the masses will either: give up or persevere and then become the shithead to reinforce the whole "i know more than you" propaganda.

I kind of went overboard. Anyway, I agree to most said here about math.

You wear a tinfoil hat and think that mobiles are used to control people's minds, don't you?

 

[apsyll]

My story is the same as purgeandfires I learned most things by mapping.(learning by doing/I'm interested in something, so i want to learn it.)
The problem is the way how people think, be good at skilled abilities is a genetic thing. It isn't only math/logic, also some thing like play music, drawing ect.
I think one of the most important ability to learn is "how to learn".

 

[sentrywiz]

You wear a tinfoil hat and think that mobiles are used to control people's minds, don't you?

No. Because we're already brainwashed. No point to wear a stupid hat.

 

[Kakerate]

I think one of the most important ability to learn is "how to learn".

Haha, one of my teachers used to always say that! I would definitely say a willingness to learn is above the ability to learn imo ;3

seems like this conversation has kind of died down a bit, but meh, i might as well give my input as well..

So, I think a part of the problem with High School Math (in the US) is that everyone learns things a just a little different. For instance, I took Calculus last year. At some point, we had a lesson on how to do this basic word problem. I actually find it odd that we had this in a Calculus class, because its more Algebra than anything. Anyways, the problems would go something like this,

"The sum of the digits of a two-digit number is 7. Reversing its digits increases the number by 27. What is the number?"

The way our teacher decided to explain this was to make 2 equations and solve them. I looked at the problems and said, "Reversing increased by 27. 27/9=3. 3 is the difference between the two digits. It's either 52 or 25. It increased, so I pick the lower number, 25." I explained what I thought was my superior method to the class, and she didn't like it. Anywhere that problem showed up, I got a check for having that as my work, regardless of having the correct answer. This last thing I mentioned-- this, having the wrong work-- is something math teachers have always complained to me about. Sometimes, I just try to think my way around a problem in the most ass-backwards way. I can't really help it though. For some things I just need an, "instruction set", or something along those lines. I probably have one of the most counter intuitive ways of learning things. It's not like I'm slow either, I did well on the ACT and all that, I'm just bad at learning how to learn I suppose. xD I ended up doing pretty horrible in that class too, just barely passing. I wouldn't necessarily say it was a correct assessment of how well I learned what we were supposed to, though. As I mentioned earlier, she would just dock points for me doing problems how they made sense in my head, so I presumably learned a little bit better than I was given credit for.

It's really odd, because the way High School Math was presented to me was, "Cram this in your head until the next test, then you might see it once or twice more for the rest of the year." After a small time frame, that knowledge become more or less useless. You only had to know it until the next test, for the most part. I didn't like that. The way I envisioned math is something along the lines of, say, "Lets make a base of knowledge, and use that to predict how to do different problems and draw conclusions about how math is interrelated." That's kind of a rough idea though. Also, it's probably something that conflicts with how I actually think of problems. For that word problem, I kind of just let the numbers bounce around in my head until I figured out a neat little instruction set on how to do it. I would *like* to say that really I used my base of knowledge to figure it out, but I couldn't really say for sure. That's really the odd thing, I don't really know how I figure stuff out. Eventually I just work it out. xD Patrick Star had it all figured out man. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNZSXnrbs_k)

So yeah, there's my jumbled thoughts on school. I suppose if I gave myself more time to make a more comprehensible collection of my thoughts, it would probably be easier for my point to get across. Ah well.


**On a side note, I agree quite a bit with DSG in terms of English classes. My opinion is definitely not a genuine sample of the average American's education. I live in a tiny town with what I see as sub-par teachers at best. The two English teachers we have don't have a very broad view of English and why it is the way it is.

 

[Dr Super Good]

**On a side note, I agree quite a bit with DSG in terms of English classes. My opinion is definitely not a genuine sample of the average American's education. I live in a tiny town with what I see as sub-par teachers at best. The two English teachers we have don't have a very broad view of English and why it is the way it is.

This (link might not work outside UK) is what I am talking about. Do not think it is easy as a term like "Explain fully" is not the same as simply "Explain". If you think it is easy chances are you will end up close to 0 marks. This exam is not made up, a member of my family will have to sit one like it next year.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The way our teacher decided to explain this was to make 2 equations and solve them. I looked at the problems and said, "Reversing increased by 27. 27/9=3. 3 is the difference between the two digits. It's either 52 or 25. It increased, so I pick the lower number, 25." I explained what I thought was my superior method to the class, and she didn't like it. Anywhere that problem showed up, I got a check for having that as my work, regardless of having the correct answer. This last thing I mentioned-- this, having the wrong work-- is something math teachers have always complained to me about. Sometimes, I just try to think my way around a problem in the most ass-backwards way. I can't really help it though. For some things I just need an, "instruction set", or something along those lines. I probably have one of the most counter intuitive ways of learning things. It's not like I'm slow either, I did well on the ACT and all that, I'm just bad at learning how to learn I suppose. xD I ended up doing pretty horrible in that class too, just barely passing. I wouldn't necessarily say it was a correct assessment of how well I learned what we were supposed to, though. As I mentioned earlier, she would just dock points for me doing problems how they made sense in my head, so I presumably learned a little bit better than I was given credit for.

While I love examples of "unconventional thinking" and getting solutions to a problem by creativity, I understand why your teacher didn't like your solution:
1) because the intention behind this problem was teaching you equation systems and you - from her perspective - just exploited a loophole in the exercise
2) because the solution kind of involves a "magic number" and no logical explanation on what you did.
Just to clarify: your magic number is 9. There is literally no reason how you came up with that number. Unless you can give me a scientifical explanation of how you came up with the number, everything in your solution is just based on an assumption.
The problem is: even if your assumption turned out to be correct, it still would not be mathematical reasoning.


If you come up with unique concepts to solving mathematical problems, you have to prove your concept with bijective reasoning. "It worked", is not enough, because in order for a solution to be mathematical ironclad, you have to prove that it works not just in this one single case.
And I am fully aware of the irony that the official taught (by curriculum) approach to solving 3rd degrees polynomials in highschool is guessing one solution.

 

[Flux]

@Kakerete
I believe your teacher did something like this:
x + y = 7
10y + x = 27 + 10x +y
where 10x + y is the number. In my opinion, your method is fine but not that kinda reliable. What if the problem got slightly complicated, and you can't think of a way like what you did with 27/9 and difference between 2 number is 3. But using algebra can always solve the problem and you would most likely rely on your algebra skill (which isn't that difficult) than your own method which us very situational.

 

[Warseeker]

You wanna prove yourself as a genious in math ? Resolve me this :

2f(x) + f'(x) - f''(x) = 1 - 2x - 3e° ?

 

[Flux]

You wanna prove yourself as a genious in math ? Resolve me this :

2f(x) + f'(x) - f''(x) = 1 - 2x - 3e° ?

That's simple, can be solved by classical homogeneous approach or laplace transform. And why are both first derivative (they will cancel each other)[.So I believe you typed wrong and the other should be a second derivative. And 'e' raised to what?

EDIT: Damn font, both looked like f'

 

[Chaosy]

DBM, are you trying to say that, that math is needed / useful in wc3 or what's the point?

 

[Xonok]

I find mathematical thinking very important in WC3. It's not so much about specific functions for me(I still copy stuff from PolarProjectionBJ), but rather how things come together.
Back when I wasn't modding WC3 I had no use whatsoever for math and I saw it from the perspective of a student - What matters is solving the problems handed to me in class. For this reason I often made up my own solutions like Kakerate.
When I did start modding WC3, the subject of math opened up for me, since now I knew what can truly be done with it and what the focus should be on. It's not about remembering specific functions, but rather remembering the thinking that tells you when to use them.
Ever wondered why you were originally taught division with only whole numbers? It's integer math really and that distinction helped me discover what modulo(remainder of a division) is really about.

What I consider wrong in this education system is that people don't really have a life-like way of putting themselves to the test, like modding was for me. Most if not all people simply can't set their priorities correctly without seeing the whole picture.

 

[Warseeker]

Of course! If you were smart in math? Then you will also be smart in warcraft 3! Or the opposite?
Strategy is made from math! I give you an exemple :
You play a melee map, you start preparing your army for the assault let presume you have 15 units inside your base, you pick 6 units for attack. And your enemy base has 22 units, they lanched an assault from two direction (group1 : 5/ group2 : 10) now it become difficult, don't forgot also the distance between your base and your enemy base, you must calculte first!

How do think I play warcraft 3 ? ....... using calculator !!,

 

[Flux]

Of course! If you were smart in math? Then you will also be smart in warcraft 3! Or the opposite?
Strategy is made from math! I give you an exemple :
You play a melee map, you start preparing your army for the assault let presume you have 15 units inside your base, you pick 6 units for attack. And your enemy base has 22 units, they lanched an assault from two direction (group1 : 5/ group2 : 10) now it become difficult, don't forgot also the distance between your base and your enemy base, you must calculte first!

How do think I play warcraft 3 ? ....... using calculator !!,