Change Map Review Proccess & Codes of Conducts for...

[All_Time_Pro]

Does anyone know if there is a code of ethics for the moderators? Publicly I won't name specific names but I believe some codes of conduct could go a long way in encouraging map creators and modelers to be involved more with the community but have noticed moderators in the map department and the discussion (specifically Triggers and Scripts) being condescending at times for new map creators and for people having common issues. I know we have standards for maps being created but one of my good friends almost every interaction they have with a moderator has been negative. It's almost as if no response from them would have been kinder. Again I haven't been active on HIVE in a little while but one of my friends has shown me comments moderators leave on their maps, trigger threads and they are 10 times out of 10 condescending. I know staff is limited but could we at least create some kind of Code of Conduct for our moderators that stop it from happening or have a report option for bullying?

Side note this is a little unrelated but the way maps get approved on Hive from when I used to post maps has become extremely out-of-pocket and arbitrary. I know I always had to check for leaks and making sure everything worked for my maps, but lately my friend showed me why his maps were getting denied or were being put in the Simple category. But I seriously want to say with chest:

MODERATORS ARE WAY OUT OF LINE WITH THE SIMPLE RATING THEY GIVE NEW MAP MAKERS

I think it is degrading and is a put down. For example one of my friends has had to put countless hours of straight map making editing after he released his project into one of his maps to appease a moderators critiques and it was marked simple and to this day it is still marked SIMPLE because the moderator said it was not creative enough for his standards. Being that there are only 2 map moderators maybe three now i don't know. this is just becoming ridiculous and not how things were in 2011. I understand moderators don't have time for stupidity or poor quality but their goal should be constructive criticism and to not be an impassable barrier with their reviews and claim a map is marked simple because of UNORGINALITY. If we all going off of that then the 100 plus versions of run kitty run, mauls green td that were slightly edited should be taken off of Hive or marked as simple (not really but hopefully you get my point)

In essence I think
1) the moderators just need to get a code of conduct (updated form),
2) reports for bullying on specific posts should be introduced (like there should be an HR moderator for the moderators, which i know in essence probably couldn't happen),
3) and approving maps as SIMPLE should be removed or should be limited way more by map reviewers.

Again I love the HIVE community its what kept my love for map-making albeit not the best maps admittedly but it felt nice to be a part of something but have noticed for new map makers it has become more of a negative.

Please like my thread so more people see. Also please don't give any hate to moderators because I really do appreciate the work they do, just recently have noticed new map makers have been struggling BECAUSE of interactions.

Edit: I do see now the Report option now under comments XD but I do not believe that is simply enough

 

[FeelMyRash]

I haven't personally experienced any "bullying" and I haven't posted many maps or had many experiences with Moderators, and I don't really want to be involved in any potential stirs here, but I think I can agree that the way maps are rated isn't the best...

Some maps are rated by silly things like Replayability, how much regular Warcraft material they use, lack of custom abilities and models, and other things that seem more opinionated than anything else.

I am also unhappy with the way the "Useful/Simple" rating looks. The way the fingers are held in a "this is small" gesture and the "Simplicity is bliss/Low effort" rating is not accurate most of the time.

I personally think splitting the map section into something like "excellent maps" and "good maps" or something could be a good solution. As it is, very few "Useful/Simple" maps get many comments or feedback, making it hard for the creators to improve (especially those who do not use/do not have access to online play like Battle.net).

This is all my opinion of course, and based off what I've personally experienced in my short time here, and what I've seen. Other people may have had different experiencesm I don't mean to offend anyone either by saying this, just to improve the experience, especially for newer users.

 

[All_Time_Pro]

I haven't personally experienced any "bullying" and I haven't posted many maps or had many experiences with Moderators, and I don't really want to be involved in any potential stirs here, but I think I can agree that the way maps are rated isn't the best...

Some maps are rated by silly things like Replayability, how much regular Warcraft material they use, lack of custom abilities and models, and other things that seem more opinionated than anything else.

I am also unhappy with the way the "Useful/Simple" rating looks. The way the fingers are held in a "this is small" gesture and the "Simplicity is bliss/Low effort" rating is not accurate most of the time.

I personally think splitting the map section into something like "excellent maps" and "good maps" or something could be a good solution. As it is, very few "Useful/Simple" maps get many comments or feedback, making it hard for the creators to improve (especially those who do not use/do not have access to online play like Battle.net).

This is all my opinion of course, and based off what I've personally experienced in my short time here, and what I've seen. Other people may have had different experiencesm I don't mean to offend anyone either by saying this, just to improve the experience, especially for newer users.

Thank you I appreciate your comment!

I agree with most everything you posted.

I do not intend to blast every moderator or say every interaction is "bullying". Bullying is a controversial term to throw out and its likely not everyone has experienced the same kind of "snarky" comments.

Also I apologize if this causes any problems at all, I swear I want peace XD

 

[Ralle]

Thanks for posting this thread. Thanks for being so nice.

First of all every post on the HIVE has a report button that anyone can use to report something out of line. Most likely Shar Dundred or I will handle the report. We do what we can and we do want this to be a nice and friendly place.

Second, being staff in the maps section has parallels to being “defence against the dark arts teacher” because it is an incredibly tough job that over time has burnt out basically every map moderator ever. Applicants for this job almost never apply and when they do they have zero post count and aren’t know at all to the community.

I have entertained the thought of not having reviews be required. Instead just having the current map staff ensure there isn’t bad stuff, but not actively playing maps. But a decision such as this shouldn’t be made lightly.

 

[All_Time_Pro]

Thanks for posting this thread. Thanks for being so nice.

First of all every post on the HIVE has a report button that anyone can use to report something out of line. Most likely Shar Dundred or I will handle the report. We do what we can and we do want this to be a nice and friendly place.

Second, being staff in the maps section has parallels to being “defence against the dark arts teacher” because it is an incredibly tough job that over time has burnt out basically every map moderator ever. Applicants for this job almost never apply and when they do they have zero post count and aren’t know at all to the community.

I have entertained the thought of not having reviews be required. Instead just having the current map staff ensure there isn’t bad stuff, but not actively playing maps. But a decision such as this shouldn’t be made lightly.

Thank you so much for your reply and for the clarification! You are very very awesome!

 

[Daffa]

Since this topic is raised, and I failed to notice the detailed when I read this in the past, I think I'll chip in my opinion. I am trying to not lash, but if it feels as such, do know I do not intend to create offense, but rather shed a different perspective.

MODERATORS ARE WAY OUT OF LINE WITH THE SIMPLE RATING THEY GIVE NEW MAP MAKERS

The Simple classification was a compromise made for all sections of resources and technically act in a way as 'substandard, but acceptable'. Before this exist, the only option is either deal with the requested changes (Awaiting Update), or straight into the Rejected status. Since the moderators or reviewers operate by comparing map to other maps within the same genre, the standard line is technically somewhat high, though I'd argue it is not that high, but that's a VERY debatable topic of its own due to the abstract nature of maps (I'll explain this down the line, since it is correlated with the third point being raised).

I think it is degrading and is a put down. For example one of my friends has had to put countless hours of straight map making editing after he released his project into one of his maps to appease a moderators critiques and it was marked simple and to this day it is still marked SIMPLE because the moderator said it was not creative enough for his standards. Being that there are only 2 map moderators maybe three now i don't know. this is just becoming ridiculous and not how things were in 2011. I understand moderators don't have time for stupidity or poor quality but their goal should be constructive criticism and to not be an impassable barrier with their reviews and claim a map is marked simple because of UNORGINALITY. If we all going off of that then the 100 plus versions of run kitty run, mauls green td that were slightly edited should be taken off of Hive or marked as simple (not really but hopefully you get my point)

Since 2011 is mentioned, I recall it was an era where the map section was in total mayhem and a reviewing team was sent to stabilize the long list of pending maps and the standard is surely without a doubt at the time was simplified to reduce the pending list in a sharp manner (else the speed of map appearing and the reviewers will never catch up). I'd say I appreciate the team's effort during that time, but the standard has shifted much nowadays that using the old standard doesn't feel fair with all the advances on the mapping world, and the numerous high-quality maps that have spawned over the decade. I might be wrong on this note since I only read the history and not partake myself on it (I'm a 2013 member, but I have some minor knowledge of past events prior to it).

The originality aspect, if I recall, started to be actively enforced around 2013 (if not 2012). It encourage original ideas and rip-offs from already famous maps are to be considered 'less' so mapmakers lean to provide unique experience from their maps (which in turn help encourage new Director Cut materials). Also, I recall along the line of Hive changing platforms (either Hive 2 or the current Hive), lots of Rejected maps suddenly dumped into Simple section and become visible, which add a ton of confusion of this particular section.

In essence I think
1) the moderators just need to get a code of conduct (updated form),
2) reports for bullying on specific posts should be introduced (like there should be an HR moderator for the moderators, which i know in essence probably couldn't happen),
3) and approving maps as SIMPLE should be removed or should be limited way more by map reviewers.

The first is already provided by the report button, and if it is a moderator (please differentiate moderators and reviewers), directly write to Admin Contact. I think it can be better provided for new users as in shown after registration.

The second point is sort of adding a ton of work while the staffs, last I am aware of, are unpaid workers. Yes, these reviewers and moderators do it on their own volition. Things might have changed, but that's how I last remembered it.

The third point is less about that and more about this question that has been plaguing map section for years if not forever: "What constitutes a map as 'up to the standard'?"
I know the rules provided a general guideline, but if we enforce it to the letter, especially the BTN and Leakless Trigger rules (hence the mostly term used in the rules to provide reviewer discretion), I am sure even most of the current 'Approved' maps will be sent to the fiery depths of Rejected or Simple as it takes only one green icon or one trigger forgot to delete their unit group to be sent directly to the pit, which is extremely unsensible. I am not even talking about the more abstract rules with lots of potential bias from each reviewers, but ones that are almost completely crystal clear and definitive. This is why I feel the 'discretion' of each reviewer a necessity.
The general agreement to deal with all these 'discretion': "If you believe the review is unfair, request another review from a different reviewer". Though, if the first reviewer's argument are solid, it is most likely to get another review with similar results and technically everyone's time get wasted.
One more thing: before Simple was a thing, people always get either Approved or Rejected, no in-betweens. All maps in Simple is technically 'Rejected' by the old categorization.

I personally think splitting the map section into something like "excellent maps" and "good maps" or something could be a good solution. As it is, very few "Useful/Simple" maps get many comments or feedback, making it hard for the creators to improve (especially those who do not use/do not have access to online play like Battle.net).

Probably rewording can be considered, though I think people will keep seeing whatever the new 'Simple' in similar way the current 'Simple' being treated.

Second, being staff in the maps section has parallels to being “defence against the dark arts teacher” because it is an incredibly tough job that over time has burnt out basically every map moderator ever.

Vouching for this one.

I have entertained the thought of not having reviews be required. Instead just having the current map staff ensure there isn’t bad stuff, but not actively playing maps. But a decision such as this shouldn’t be made lightly.

Might spiral to other sections if not planned correctly, Chief. I personally don't mind, though I hope people won't complain if repetitive maps are coming through the gates. I mean, if there are no reviews, might as well flood the gates

Another way is to change 'Simple' to 'Acceptable', in a sense it is somewhat tolerated. Oh, but that's better after cleaning the 'Simple' section since there are quite a large number of out of place stuff there last I recall.

Pretty late here, so I might need to re-read what I write tomorrow.

 

[FeelMyRash]

All very good points, @Daffa... Though if "Simple" is replaced with "Acceptable" I'd prefer if the word "tolerated" isn't used

I'm glad you brought up what counts as "Standard" as well. My belief is that as maps become more and more advanced, "Standard" also advances to more unreachable heights.

In older days before advanced Triggers and Custom Models became more common, the first Footman Frenzy would've probably been rated "Standard" (or approved in this case. though it's up for debate if this is the case). But now? If that same map was posted on HIVE today, would it get a "Simple Rating"? I think it's a possibility.

I profess that my thoughts have changed a bit since I commented in this Thread and after reading your comment. I'm not entirely sure if creating an "Acceptable Maps" board would actually do anything to solve what I think is the main problem with the "Simple" rating - which is the basic human bias that even I'm not exempt from. "Simple" rated maps are just not as attractive as "Approved" maps, and they tend to get buried unless the Creator keeps updating or gets lucky enough to get a few comments, which is unlikely to happen due to the rating.

I've gone through a few "Simple" maps and they have very few - if any at all - comments, though this could simply be due to their quality. I'll be including my own in this list as well as I'm not a vain person by nature. Encouragement is important, of course, but other things like Bug Reporting is also valuable. I can't be expected to find every Bug in my maps or think of every improvement, especially without knowing what people want... For instance, I had a very simple yet important Bug in one map that I somehow failed to notice, and not once in the many weeks that followed was this brought up to me... How many others have faced the same problem? How many others have gotten stuck simply because they didn't know where to go next?

I hope I haven't contradicted myself or gone on too long of a tangent, and I hope I got my points across clearly without offending anyone... These are just things that have been stirring in my mind for a while that I thought were relevant to the discussion.

 

[Daffa]

Though if "Simple" is replaced with "Acceptable" I'd prefer if the word "tolerated" isn't used

Well, I am using "tolerated" in comparison to the high standard applied today, but I personally agree it is not the best word to describe these maps.

In older days before advanced Triggers and Custom Models became more common, the first Footman Frenzy would've probably been rated "Standard" (or approved in this case. though it's up for debate if this is the case). But now? If that same map was posted on HIVE today, would it get a "Simple Rating"? I think it's a possibility.

Nah, I think it will end in the Rejected bin straight away nowadays.

"Simple" rated maps are just not as attractive as "Approved" maps, and they tend to get buried unless the Creator keeps updating or gets lucky enough to get a few comments, which is unlikely to happen due to the rating.

I think comment is less about the status and mostly on if the map had an admirable community. Even approved maps can be barely commented unless it has proper user base enjoying it, like TCO for example.

In the end, most of these comments always come from the users themselves. Also, most of the time, the author usually create a Discord for their map so people that are not registered also involve themselves with the map feedbacks.

This 'lack of comment' can be quite complicated to resolve, since it requires active participation from the community and less from the reviewers, which already do serve the feedback in regards to development. Yes, some of those feedback can be considered 'unpleasant' which raised this kind of topic, but I think reviewers, within the professional capacity assigned to them, already do well with their feedback for the map improvement.

I hope I haven't contradicted myself or gone on too long of a tangent, and I hope I got my points across clearly without offending anyone... These are just things that have been stirring in my mind for a while that I thought were relevant to the discussion.

No worries. I'm sure it still align with the issues raised here, since it sort of correlate with the original issue of the "Simple" Rating which spawns this thread.