[Defense / Survival] Soul Gladiators

[pick-a-chew]

Updated: 21/04/2017

In Progress

- hero reworking
- reshuffling of waves

Updated description for 2017:

I have been working on this very lazily over the years, but its probably my most developed map and one that continues to make me want to work on it from time to time. The concept was inspired by Orc Gladitors; you have a large arena, a group of heroes, and waves of mobs you need to defeat. However... instead of Orcs you have familiar faces from the Warcraft Universe, such as Illidan, Vashj and Kael, and waves composed of enemies that relate to something Warcraft.

My main goal for this project was to create a challenging Hero survival that requires teamwork to reach the later stages, similar to OG, but hopefully to create interesting gameplay, heroes and waves which is where OG fell short IMO.

Features

- Orc Gladiators style map (hero survival)
- Scaling difficulty; from 1 player up to 8

- 16 of your favorite Warcraft 3 characters as playable heroes
- 6 abilities per hero; 3-4 active abilities, one ultimate, 1-2 passives.
- spells that scale with attributes
- hero revival upon wave completion
- experience gain when half a wave is defeated
- automated and determined hero skill acquisition
- talent system (IN PROGRESS)

- shops (BEING REWORKED)
- Defeating a boss puts random pieces of loot in the loot shop
- Loot items have unique effects and can only be purchased with loot rights
- Stash system - your Stash is a shade and is mobile, but will disappear when creeps start spawning!
- Currency conversion

- randomized wave compositions (no game is the same)
- Level 5, 10 and 15 boss waves that requires tactics
- Currently 17 waves (BEING REWORKED)
- Waves become increasingly complex (priorities, kiting)
- In-depth wave strategies (e.g. environmental damage, eggs)

- Cam1 for an alternative camera
- Two game modes; Easy (75% enemy HP) and -pick
- Default modes are All Random and Normal (100% enemy HP)

Rokhan's Rework

Ability	Icon	Description	Talents
Healing Wave		Calls forth a wave of healing energy that bounces, healing less on each jump.
Serpent Ward		Summons a Serpent Ward to attack your enemies.
Hex		Transforms the target into a frog, disabling it. A portion of damage dealt by your Serpent Wards is also dealt to all hexed targets
Snake Bite		The first strike of your Serpent Wards deals extra damage
Troll Regeneration		Increases Rok'hans health regeneration rate
Big Bad Voodoo		Shrouds an ally, preventing all damage they take for a moderate duration

Focused Wave - Initial heal is increased, but falloff is doubled Healing Stream - Heals more targets and bounce distance increased

Cobra Essence - Cast and Ward attack range increased Viper Essence - Dying wards refund mana

Snake Eat Frog - Increased Serpent Ward damage replicate to Hexxed targets. Plague of Frogs - Nearby targets are hexxed for a shorter duration, and primary target is hexxed for longer

Fangs - Damage increased and also stuns targets briefly. Undulations - When triggered, increases the Caster's speed briefly

Enhanced Healing - Potion duration increased by 50% Natural Vitality - Increases movement speed by 15%

Ritual Circle - Nearby allies are also affected Enduring Voodoo - Duration doubled.

As with my recent post in this thread, i am implementing a talent system and reworking all heroes. Cairne's test map is below (includes Tomes of Power).

Comments always welcome <3

 

[Silva]

This looks nice! I like the random loot shop feature although the prices are too high and i can't buy items from it and still make recipes. Also I think you should let the player select champion if it's singleplayer. And lastly, when I select the map from TFT it has no description, you should add that.

 

[pick-a-chew]

Thanks Silva, your testing was much appreciated .

I will implement a pick mode soon, my initial philosophy was to have only all random, but i realize on single player that not all current heroes are good at solo (Rokhan's serpent wards get munched and BBV is pointless if you're alone).

I'll look at prices for the loot shop. I was sort of thinking of making loot items cost lumber (and you get 1 lumber per wave completed) that way you can make recipe items and have a bit of loot too - though i'm not sure if this system will work well with many people playing.

Good catch with the description.

Thanks again <3

 

[Kino]

Not a fundamentally bad map.
Some things for you to think over.
- Having auto-learn skills + auto-hero picks is very strange. There's literally nothing you can do as a player to adapt to what the game throws at you since your hero progression is automatic. Its not like there are enough early items for proper customizing anyway.
- The environmental effects are cool but don't actually add much to the game. When one spawns > you walk over to it. It doesn't add any depth or decision making to the map.
You simply watch the ping and click over to its location.
- Melee heroes are terrible in this game type (but Im sure you knew that already).

 

[pick-a-chew]

Thank you Kino.

Auto-learn skills is something i'm not too worried about, since most abilities already scale with hero power, and so by the time you have all 6 abilities, all i really want you as a player to focus on is using these abilities to win rather than worrying about where to allocate skill points (and it also makes the heroes easier to learn imo).

Without environmental effects, players will usually congregate at which area gives the strongest advantage (probably bottom right due to high ground and relatively tight entrance). I thought with these effects, you can shake things up a bit each round. Though i guess i could reduce their effectiveness so people don't HAVE TO go to them.

Most of the melee heroes are overpowered imo, they're "terrible" in the regard they're gonna take a lot of damage in multiplayer, but if you have potions and a good team, it should work out (hopefully).

However i will consider everything you have noted when i resume work on the map later.

 

[Kino]

Without environmental effects, players will usually congregate at which area gives the strongest advantage (probably bottom right due to high ground and relatively tight entrance). I thought with these effects, you can shake things up a bit each round. Though i guess i could reduce their effectiveness so people don't HAVE TO go to them.

The issue I have is that feature doesnt actually make you do anything except remember to walk to the ping location every round.
Instead of weakening the effect, one easy fix is to have 2 such effects spawning per round.

Most of the melee heroes are overpowered imo, they're "terrible" in the regard they're gonna take a lot of damage in multiplayer, but if you have potions and a good team, it should work out (hopefully).

I meant "terrible" in the sense that their skill sets don't necessarily fit the game type (Rokhan), not in the sense of being underpowered.
Melee as in heroes from the default game type, as opposed to heroes with actual melee attacks.

 

[pick-a-chew]

That's actually a good idea, as it will require players to decide which environment to stick to. My only concern is that it might split the players up, but i'll implement it and see how it goes.

That is true which is why they have all been modified to an extent (hex deals damage, sleep has a low mana cost, Tyrande doesn't have Owl Scout, dark ritual and death pact target enemies, animate dead summons ghouls etc.). The two extra skill slots also gives me a chance to add interesting abilities that match a hero's theme.

I did a bit of work on the map earlier:

> Two environments will now activate each round
> -pick is now a game option
> Loot is now purchased with "Loot Rights". You earn 1 after each round. (Prices on Loot items are not final).
> A few spell tool tips have been updated.

The new version is now the new attachment. I would appreciate it if someone tested the Hero pick system since it's (quite) unique; it works sort of like Dota 2 where you can "reserve" a hero by selecting them. When the pick timer ends, you gain the hero you selected. This allows people to refine or adjust their selections based on the current picks of their team.

Updated again. There is now a public release on MMH that can be played. This is still an alpha and as such there's still only 7 waves.

 

[DEE-BOO]

Hey pick-a-chew,
I really like the map I like the random items from the loot shop and auras at the four corners. I also like it how you are given abilities instead of manually learning them, it's a nice surprise when learning new abilities. It was pretty hard in single player, took me 3 tires to win as Dread Lord. I guess because sometimes the spawning is unbalanced. Sometimes 1 Wildkin and a bunch of smaller baddies show up and sometimes it's 3 Wildkins.

Things I found/suggestions:

• You can see the lava underneath the black at the bottom of the map. It's no big deal, but I thought I'd still let you know.
  
• You should change the colour of pings and the text
  
  to match each other, e.g Blue for Mana regen, Green for Hp regen, Yellow for Armor Bonus, Orange for As/MS Bonus.
• Muradin Hero

That all I got for now, I've attached my replay in-case you want to take a look. I'm looking forward to more waves and bosses

 

[pick-a-chew]

Hey pick-a-chew,
I really like the map I like the random items from the loot shop and auras at the four corners. I also like it how you are given abilities instead of manually learning them, it's a nice surprise when learning new abilities. It was pretty hard in single player, took me 3 tires to win as Dread Lord. I guess because sometimes the spawning is unbalanced. Sometimes 1 Wildkin and a bunch of smaller baddies show up and sometimes it's 3 Wildkins.

Things I found/suggestions:

• You can see the lava underneath the black at the bottom of the map. It's no big deal, but I thought I'd still let you know.
  
• You should change the colour of pings and the text
  
  to match each other, e.g Blue for Mana regen, Green for Hp regen, Yellow for Armor Bonus, Orange for As/MS Bonus.
• Muradin Hero

That all I got for now, I've attached my replay in-case you want to take a look. I'm looking forward to more waves and bosses

Thank you for your testing and extensive feedback! It is much appreciated. Gathering from the Replay, it looks like you quickly mastered the Dreadlord

Aye, the spawning can be pretty unbalanced, the Wildkin has equal spawn chance but is actually the strongest wave mob for that level by far, so i might reduce its odds (rather than nerf it). The Knight on wave 6 functions that way (powerful mob but has half the chance to spawn).

Ideally, throughout a game, you will have waves that have (by chance) spawned to be tough and other waves that have (by chance) spawned to be easier. That is a bit RNG, but on average, it should go like that

Good idea with the colours, i'll do that next and should be a relatively easy to add

I'm glad to say that lava issue should be patched up in the next version (the redness on the mini--map will now be black).

I have had some ideas for Muradin drafted, so i'll work on him next when i can touch the Heroes again ^^

Edit: Updated

 

[DEE-BOO]

0.07alpha

Ok! Round 2.
I chose Cairne, it's much harder than last time
Too hard... So I resorted in abusing the permanent HP gain
First try I was demolished by spiders! There were about 3 giant ones. Second try, there was only one (thank jesus). I like the egg sack wave, it's something different. I'll keep adding my replays (you probably don't want to watch this one though because of the permanent hp abusing).

Things I found/suggestions:

• Making Loot rights able to be traded for Souls & vice versa.
  
• Make permanent hp gain have a limit. (e.g Once per round, Stacks 5 times per game, more Soul reward the faster you finish the wave & less souls the longer you take).
  
• Make Hero Automatically selected in the beginning.
  
• Pings for the four corners are still green.
  
• The last loot item added to the shop didn't say what it was. ( ___ has been added). This might of happened because the game ended.
  
• Spell shield item does not state the cooldown.
  
• Zombie wave, tombstones appear and continuously spawn zombies until all tombstones are destroyed.
  
• Loot items in recipes.
  
• Make some abilities able to destroy trees to add strategy to the South-West zone.
  
• Rexxar Hero.
  
• Add a spawning special effect for the bosses.

Thanks all for now. Keep it up!

 

[pick-a-chew]

Ok! Round 2.
I chose Cairne, it's much harder than last time
Too hard... So I resorted in abusing the permanent HP gain
First try I was demolished by spiders! There were about 3 giant ones. Second try, there was only one (thank jesus). I like the egg sack wave, it's something different. I'll keep adding my replays (you probably don't want to watch this one though because of the permanent hp abusing).

Cheers DEE-BOO! You are an invaluable tester

The Egg Sack wave is probably very tricky for a solo player because they can't get all over the map. I've tested this wave a few times with 4-5 players and if people are spread out and kill the big eggs especially, it's usually an easy wave. I might make it so that with a certain number of players (say 1-3), the spawn region might be half the size (so they wont spawn around the edges).

I am glad you liked this wave, because with the direction i'm taking now, all waves will have a special element to consider. The zombie idea you have is actually really good and i'll likely add it when i get round to it. A lot of people i've tested with like Wave 8 also, because Blizzards raining down everywhere keeps things intense.

The stat abuse is something i'm aware of. Implementing a bonus soul timer will be quite tricky for me to do (the triggering system i have for waves has gotten very complicated as it has to handle virtually all of the game elements) - though my current plan is to add a timer for the game overall. I'm (probably) going to aim for at least 20 waves in total, which should make a game take roughly 40 minutes, and i'll stick a 60 minute timer to complete the game. If that timer goes off, the players will lose. My alternative to that is you will get graded on how long it takes you to complete the game (e.g. if you take longer than an hour you get an F, shorter than 30 mins an A) and people who get an A can be entered into a Hall of Fame-type thing.

It could also be that the game is unfavorable for single player. When i started creating the waves, it was easy for me to test and balance myself, but now it's difficult for me to test wave 9, 10, 11 etc. because it's hard for me to skip waves 1-8 and test them properly (i.e. i'd need to spawn a level appropriate hero with items and stat modifications expected at that level, which isn't easy).

• Making Loot rights able to be traded for Souls & vice versa.
  
• Make permanent hp gain have a limit. (e.g Once per round, Stacks 5 times per game, more Soul reward the faster you finish the wave & less souls the longer you take).
  
• Make Hero Automatically selected in the beginning.
  
• Pings for the four corners are still green.
  
• The last loot item added to the shop didn't say what it was. ( ___ has been added). This might of happened because the game ended.
  
• Spell shield item does not state the cooldown.
  
• Zombie wave, tombstones appear and continuously spawn zombies until all tombstones are destroyed.
  
• Loot items in recipes.
  
• Make some abilities able to destroy trees to add strategy to the South-West zone.
  
• Rexxar Hero.
  
• Add a spawning special effect for the bosses.

1. That's a good idea and i like it. I'll likely put loot rights at the center (soul) shop.

2. If i put a defeat timer or a grading system, waiting all game to spam permanent stat bonuses will probably be discouraged. At the moment i like stat-modifying spells because a) they're useful, b) they're cool and c) they add decision making (e.g. Cairne's HP bonus also heals a lot - do i use it on cooldown for the HP or as a heal when it's needed?)

3. By that do you mean the pick system or the random system? I like the pick system, especially for testing, as it allows you to see your team's choices and you can pick heroes that have good synergy with each other. I've also had a few people tell me it's a cool system.

4. Ah, you meant the pings? . I changed the color of the game message (e.g. Font of Life is in green) but changing the pings is a good idea. I'll also probably line up the pings properly as well (e.g. Earth's ping isn't in the corner because the unit with the aura spawns in gap between the rocks.

5. That's correct. It ran out of loot items to put in the loot shop so it put nothing in it . The way the loot system works is (in the bottom left) there's an island with all the loot items in (that are hidden via triggers). It picks a random loot each time to ensure each loot can only be picked once.

6. Thanks for catching that!

7. Approved as stated above

8. Potentially, especially if a few loot items are specifically reagents. The problem i have with this idea is that each loot is unique so any recipe i make for them, will only be used once (by one player) so it's a bit wasteful. One thing i considered was adding recipes that use reagent x OR y OR z, with x, y or z being loot items, and the item produced being slightly different depending on the loot item used in the recipe. Those recipes will likely be complex so i'm not too sure at the moment (though i know people want more recipes - i'm not sure where to put the next recipe shop).

9. Do you think so? The trees are still destructible at the moment, though only big abilities like Infernal and Death and Decay destroy them. I'm not 100% sure how they can be destroyed tactically (escape?).

10. I'll add him on me to-do list by request . Making heroes is my favorite thing but they're still on low priority whilst i create waves/do the other systems. I'd actually even consider getting someone to make some heroes for me so i can just copy and paste them into the map.

11. Good idea. Currently they just appear which is a bit weird. I'll likely add an effect to when shops are hidden too (they just vanish).

Thanks again DEE-BOO <3. The one thing i don't get when i test on Bnet is constructed feedback, and what you have reported back to me is very useful!

edit: who knew that reading books increases health rather than intelligence?

 

[DEE-BOO]

3. By that do you mean the pick system or the random system?

I mean,

• Selection - Add (Hero) to selection for Owner Of Hero

(Yes I'm too lazy to select it myself and would like you to trigger it for me )

4. Ah, you meant the pings?

I meant both

9. Do you think so? The trees are still destructible at the moment, though only big abilities like Infernal and Death and Decay destroy them. I'm not 100% sure how they can be destroyed tactically (escape?).

Yeah, pretty much for escape. (I get claustrophobic in there)

I'll keep giving feedback whenever I can, I only tired out two Hero so far, so expect more replays and such.

 

[pick-a-chew]

I'll trigger that in. The way heroes are created is a bit weird at the moment anyway (they spawn randomly around the Soul Pit) so i might change that whilst i'm at it.

You'll be glad to know i've made Muradin now, and am working on Rexxar. I should be able to test them publicly later

Edit: Updated with 0.12alpha; a few fixes and Muradin and Rexxar were added. They've been tested and work well.

 

[DEE-BOO]

0.12alpha

I chose Rexxar,
Failed so many times, then I thought I had this time. Then those reincarnating Night Elves destroyed me (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
In this replay I don't win

Things I found/suggestions:

• Remove negative buffs after a round is complete
  
• Make Rexxar's stampede not so wide spread
  
• Make a warning to alert players that a boss is coming
  
• Pings are still green :L

I'll keep trying until I win with Rexxar

 

[pick-a-chew]

For single player the best strat for the night elves i find is to spawn camp North or South, and then take on the rest of the pack. They also prove tricky in public testing just because people don't kill the wisps when they pop up; though i think i'll nerf the wisp hit points since auto-attacking them to death is difficult.

THE PINGS. AND THE SELECTION. I will do them. I promise

The Boss warning has been suggested to me several times, and i'll put that on my list of promises.

Removing negative buffs is a good idea.

I will upload the newest version because Rexxar has buffs in that (which make him better). Before his Eagle was a bit meh (low hp, low range, dies instantly more or less) and the Purges/Dispels on the creeps sort of screwed him over in multiplayer tests (more creeps = more purges). He was also missing 1 point of mana regen.

It also has Wave 13 which will have a funny surprise. I recommend an invis or invulnerability pot for that

Any suggestions for the next heroes? I have Jaina all planned out (and should take me about 1 hour to make her). Looking to make another ranged hero for the next release, but pondering who

Thanks again <3

Edit: god damn it, need to spread some rep >.>

 

[DEE-BOO]

0.13alpha

I finally won!!
I did not expect that to happen at the end, lucky I was prepared.

Things I found/suggestions:

• There are a bug I found, the damage dealt score board was going up even though the wave was over. My Quill Boar was poisoned and that caused the score to rise for some reason. (I type "wtf" when it happens in the replay).
  
• Try out Bribe's Heal Event. It would be cool to see a healing floating text to see how much healing or life stealing is going on. You could also make an item that increases healing by a percentage or create a poisonous weather effect that reduces healing.
  
• The map gives no prior warning that the Red slot must be occupied for mode choosing.
  
• Thrall for new ranged hero.
  
• Temptation monster, it's really hard to catch, but it gives good reward, it distracts players and does not count towards the wave. Disappears after a short amount of time.
  
• Increase the size of the Soul Lounge, it seems a bit too small in comparison the other buildings.
  
• Create a floating text or player message to give a brief description of the hero when clicked in -pick mode.
  
• Display total gold cost in the tool tip of each recipe.
  
• An item that combines only potions to make a greater potion
  
• There is a misplaced tile in the North-West area. (or it's your artistic style)
  
• Pings are still green

 

[pick-a-chew]

I finally won!!
I did not expect that to happen at the end, lucky I was prepared.

Things I found/suggestions:

• There are a bug I found, the damage dealt score board was going up even though the wave was over. My Quill Boar was poisoned and that caused the score to rise for some reason. (I type "wtf" when it happens in the replay).
  
• Try out Bribe's Heal Event. It would be cool to see a healing floating text to see how much healing or life stealing is going on. You could also make an item that increases healing by a percentage or create a poisonous weather effect that reduces healing.
  
• The map gives no prior warning that the Red slot must be occupied for mode choosing.
  
• Thrall for new ranged hero.
  
• Temptation monster, it's really hard to catch, but it gives good reward, it distracts players and does not count towards the wave. Disappears after a short amount of time.
  
• Increase the size of the Soul Lounge, it seems a bit too small in comparison the other buildings.
  
• Create a floating text or player message to give a brief description of the hero when clicked in -pick mode.
  
• Display total gold cost in the tool tip of each recipe.
  
• An item that combines only potions to make a greater potion
  
• There is a misplaced tile in the North-West area. (or it's your artistic style)
  
• Pings are still green

Whoo, grats!

1. I have observed this before and have no idea why it happens since only damage dealt by the player is recorded (do poisons count as self damage?). I will try to fix this; though i think if i add in debuff removal at end of wave, and make their durations less on summons, the board wont be bloated so much by that kind of damage.

2. I will definitely look into this. I have been a bit naughty with the triggered heals i have so far (e.g. Death Coil) in terms of not putting in floating text.

3. I would use a host-detection system, but since host bots are so widespread, it's not really usable. I'd like to think that it's common knowledge that player 1 usually has the rights to choose game modes.

4. Thrall it shall be!

5. That's a good idea. I'll think how to add that in (as a part of a separate wave, or a thing for several waves).

6. Noted.

7. I'm thinking of stunning the heroes and making them level X so players can glance over their abilities beforehand. Doing this will take some time because the game will always lag when abilities are loaded into the game for the first time (and as such i need to make a dummy unit that has ALL the hero abilities on it; otherwise there will be one massive lag spike when i cause all the selection heroes to level up). Though some text might also be helpful to let players know what hero is good at doing what as well.

8. Good idea, has been on my mind for a while.

9. I'm thinking of changing the healing and mana pots to heal/restore 35% hp/mana respectively so they stay relevant and useful throughout. There is space for more consumables but i'm deciding how to use them.

10. I don't remember that being there!

11. Pffft, gimme a chance! I'll doooooooooooo it soooooooooooooooooooooon!

Edit: Rexxar looks pretty formidable on single player!

Edit2: Jaina is ready for the next release. Looking pretty sexy and fine, probably going to be overpowered to pieces (who doesn't like brilliance aura on hero survivals?). I'm busy on Thursday but will resume progress on Friday.

 

[pick-a-chew]

Friendly 48 hour guilt-free bump.

The latest update features Jaina and Thrall, and currently has level 14 which needs to be tested and balanced. There are also a few number of other small tweaks.

 

[Silva]

Found a bug, I think.

While I was playing illidan, at wave 6 I used metamorphism and after 3 seconds i was defeated for no clear reason. but nice improvements man.

 

[Acutesharpness]

Man this game is hardcore but the spells are also overpowered.

 

[pick-a-chew]

Good catch Sylva; that's probably due to the illidan metamorphosis costing no food (players are defeated when all players reach 0 food). I'll fix that tomorrow.

Some spells are probably overpowered, though I intend for spells to be more powerful than auto-attacks (since using spells is more fun and requires thinking). I will look at their balancing.

Thanks you two!

 

[Acutesharpness]

To ease your research, the value of Intelligence is just way too good XD that's why the notion of the game being hardcore.

 

[pick-a-chew]

I see .

Well i have done a few more tweaks. Wave 14 is done (maybe not dusted). I think all i need to do is make 6 more waves and the map will (mostly) be done since i've done balancing on the way!

 

[Acutesharpness]

Good to see but so to speak I got destroyed by spiders

 

[pick-a-chew]

Yeah some heroes are pretty poop at dealing with spiders.

I have updated the version again; features the level 15 boss (which definitely isn't easy)

 

[pick-a-chew]

Another 48 hour bump.

I've been busy with real life past few days, but i'm back to fixing things, and am as always, interested in hearing any feedback

 

[Kino]

Tell me when you are done updating all you intend to, Ill give it several play-throughs then.

 

[Silva]

This is beginning to be addictive!

I reached mannoroth with deathknight but he killed me with 1 shot. I couldn't really foresee it. what's up with that?

You should add more Agility based champions, with more physical abilities.

 

[Acutesharpness]

When ya releasing it

 

[pick-a-chew]

The game as it is has pretty much all of its systems in place, it's just down to me to make it longer by making more waves. Since it is highly playable i may release it soon.

Mannoroth is a pretty tough boss. He one shot you because you probably wasn't near the unstable voidwalker (which pings on the map and gives you a game-text message when he casts it) though i think i'll likely change the punishment (since 1 shotting you isn't very funny and new players have no idea what's going on). Glad you liked it up until then tho

I have added Sylvanas in the upcoming version. I'm a bit hesitant to add physical abilities because the armor of end-game level mobs is quite high, though i will think about it!

 

[Kino]

The game as it is has pretty much all of its systems in place, it's just down to me to make it longer by making more waves. Since it is highly playable i may release it soon.

Sure, but the question is whether it is worth testing now?
Or is there so much subject to change that my feedback will be obsolete by the next update?

Id be happy to give a very thorough play-through soon, but in the mean time a few things.
- Rexxar's "frenzy on cast" passive is really weak and also poorly suited to his skillset. Stampede is channeling and thus the buff expires way before stampede ends, summons tend to be the kind of skills you precast before combat. Trying to stagger summons for maximum buff duration is really weird.

- Rexxar's aura passive also seems overly complex for no reason, you already want to keep minions close for the aura speed bonus, having skills that disable/enable within the aura seems like overkill.

- The difficulty spike between the blizzard wave and the wave before is huge, IMO monsters could start having some sort of noticeable skills much earlier in the game.

 

[pick-a-chew]

Or is there so much subject to change that my feedback will be obsolete by the next update?

No. There will be no major changes to any of the current systems since they all work well. The only major thing missing are the end-game recipes (designed to be acquirable after wave 15).

The game as it stands now has everything it needs; they are subject to fine-tuning/balancing of course - though i have reiterated this every version so there aren't that many imbalances (if any at all).

And so yes, it is testable. I have played this a few times on Bnet with others, and most don't even notice that it's a test version.

 

[Kino]

Duly noted.
Ive also edited the earlier post, you might want to have a look at that.

 

[pick-a-chew]

- Rexxar's "frenzy on cast" passive is really weak and also poorly suited to his skillset. Stampede is channeling and thus the buff expires way before stampede ends, summons tend to be the kind of skills you precast before combat. Trying to stagger summons for maximum buff duration is really weird.

- Rexxar's aura passive also seems overly complex for no reason, you already want to keep minions close for the aura speed bonus, having skills that disable/enable within the aura seems like overkill.

- The difficulty spike between the blizzard wave and the wave before is huge, IMO monsters could start having some sort of noticeable skills much earlier in the game.

Rexxar is already very powerful. I'm not sure if the tooltip reflects a previous change, but the buff lasts 20 seconds (and since Quilbeast has a lower cooldown compared to Hawk and Misha, he's going to have a high uptime of the buff whether or not he decides to stagger his summons).

The main purpose of the Aura was to provide life regeneration for his (and allied) summons; the rexxar-specific effects were intended as just a bonus, though i do agree the tooltip and nature of the bonus effects are complex and probably not needed.

Yes, that is something i've heard a few times. I have thought about adding things to waves 2, 3, 4 and 6 to make them more special, since waves 7 and beyond start to have "interesting" mechanics that require some sort of thinking. I will get round to this eventually.

 

[Kino]

Rexxar is definitely very strong.
However, I think his power is very lopsided. In the sense that it is very loaded into the base stats of his summons.
While you can balance this out by having weak passives, it makes the hero feel very odd to play. Leveling him up doesn't feel interesting as all his later tier skills are so "meh".

Some food for thought regarding Rexxar.
- I like how his hawk actually feels like a glass cannon, you actually have to defend it from ranged creeps. Just that alone makes it feel engaging to use.
- Quillbeast feels the most meh-ish of the summons. You could easily move the splash damage from the hawk to the Quillbeast, hence adding some sort of micro element where one can gain maximum splash "value".
- His aura could easily be replaced by "summon management" skills that heal/buffs things, if would definitely make managing his minions more interesting and make the hero more active in combat as opposed to summon > gain buff > go all in.

 

[Acutesharpness]

I am not sure how coop will feel like but in solo game it was challenging that's all I say

 

[Kino]

Alright, final thoughts.

Heroes
> Personally, I feel that rank 2 skills could easily have a reduced cooldown (generally speaking). It makes the later game faster and by then the player should have good grasp of the map, thus speed would not too much and issue.
> Vashj and Tyrande are very, very similar. Tyrande seems to be much more boring version to play.

Illidan
> Seemed to the most fun hero to use, he cleared at a decent speed and felt suitably squishy while doing it. His recover skill however, did feel like it needed some base healing, it was quite pathetic for a 16 second cooldown early on. Also, if you meta-morph during a boss round, you lose the ability to turn invulnerable.

Kel-Thuzad
> Frost Nova’s single target bonus damage text doesn’t show the bonus. It also feels really lacklustre compared to the other spam nukes, the mana cost also seems excessive. I’d rather lower its cooldown significantly, since compared to the other casters, KT doesn’t really have any spammable skills.

Waves
> The biggest gripe I have with the map right now, is how slow it is. Early on not so much, but later on it gets much worse, boss waves are the exception to that however. Perhaps another way to alleviate this is to give you 1 active skill right of the bat, also makes expanded mind and actual choice on wave 1.
> The later waves become incredibly slow even as your hero scales up. This especially true for the Night-elf wave.
> The difficulty of the first 2 waves swings wildly depending on what creeps spawn. If you get a largely ranged creep spawn, the wave is cake. If you get a melee heavy spawn, the wave is unbeatable for certain heroes.
> Those heroes that can do feel like they clear late-game waves with “not-awful speed” often rely on very burst heavy procs (Arthas, Rokhan). Not inherently a bad thing, but it makes damage feel very inconsistent.

Items
> There could be some weightage to the different tiers of "loot-rights" gear. Nothing is more depressing than getting an 8 cost item on wave or a 3 cost tiem on wave 10++.
> Certain recipes have sell costs (ancient jango) most others do not
> Certain loot rights items have sell costs (evasion talisman) others do not
> With both of the above, I am not sure if the sell cost is intentional or not.
> Cursed tome seems to a be very weak, by the time you get enough currency to actually buy it, the need for +1 hero level is rather irrelevant compared to the stat loss. Heck, even if it costed 1 loot-right it still seems like a questionable buy.
> Most of the economy loot items, (+0-10 random stats, give +1 stats/round) are fairly situational, the game doesn’t last quite long enough for them to feel worthwhile, unless you manage to rush them ASAP.

Quality of Life
> Being able to pick heroes immediately once the mode is settled would be nice.
> A start next wave command would be nice too.

 

[pick-a-chew]

Alright, final thoughts.

Heroes
> Personally, I feel that rank 2 skills could easily have a reduced cooldown (generally speaking). It makes the later game faster and by then the player should have good grasp of the map, thus speed would not too much and issue.
> Vashj and Tyrande are very, very similar. Tyrande seems to be much more boring version to play.

Illidan
> Seemed to the most fun hero to use, he cleared at a decent speed and felt suitably squishy while doing it. His recover skill however, did feel like it needed some base healing, it was quite pathetic for a 16 second cooldown early on. Also, if you meta-morph during a boss round, you lose the ability to turn invulnerable.

Kel-Thuzad
> Frost Nova’s single target bonus damage text doesn’t show the bonus. It also feels really lacklustre compared to the other spam nukes, the mana cost also seems excessive. I’d rather lower its cooldown significantly, since compared to the other casters, KT doesn’t really have any spammable skills.

Waves
> The biggest gripe I have with the map right now, is how slow it is. Early on not so much, but later on it gets much worse, boss waves are the exception to that however. Perhaps another way to alleviate this is to give you 1 active skill right of the bat, also makes expanded mind and actual choice on wave 1.
> The later waves become incredibly slow even as your hero scales up. This especially true for the Night-elf wave.
> The difficulty of the first 2 waves swings wildly depending on what creeps spawn. If you get a largely ranged creep spawn, the wave is cake. If you get a melee heavy spawn, the wave is unbeatable for certain heroes.
> Those heroes that can do feel like they clear late-game waves with “not-awful speed” often rely on very burst heavy procs (Arthas, Rokhan). Not inherently a bad thing, but it makes damage feel very inconsistent.

Items
> There could be some weightage to the different tiers of "loot-rights" gear. Nothing is more depressing than getting an 8 cost item on wave or a 3 cost tiem on wave 10++.
> Certain recipes have sell costs (ancient jango) most others do not
> Certain loot rights items have sell costs (evasion talisman) others do not
> With both of the above, I am not sure if the sell cost is intentional or not.
> Cursed tome seems to a be very weak, by the time you get enough currency to actually buy it, the need for +1 hero level is rather irrelevant compared to the stat loss. Heck, even if it costed 1 loot-right it still seems like a questionable buy.
> Most of the economy loot items, (+0-10 random stats, give +1 stats/round) are fairly situational, the game doesn’t last quite long enough for them to feel worthwhile, unless you manage to rush them ASAP.

Quality of Life
> Being able to pick heroes immediately once the mode is settled would be nice.
> A start next wave command would be nice too.

Thanks for the nice feedback.

1) Perhaps. Though i have to be careful with that since if things like CCs, stuns and heals become highly spammable, it will make any wave cakewalk.

2) I am happy with the way Vashj is. Tyrande is due for a slight remake (Her W and E are very lacking, and her G passive doesn't really fit her) - though when i have time for that i'm not sure.

3) Level 1 Recover might generally just be underwhelming; i could scale it up to Level 2's stats and add a longer cooldown. The "general, unofficial" formula for a spell that goes from Level 1 to Level 2 is that it should become about 50% more powerful. I want to be wary with buffing Recover because in my opinion, his 45% evasion and HP bonus from metamorphosis already provide excellent survival benefits.

4) Generally that spell (Frost Nova) could do with a re-triggering (the text does actually show, but it's directly on top of the area damage the main target also takes and as such you only see 1 damage instance). I will put that on my to-do list.

5) Perhaps. Wave 11 is still pretty fast IMO (Fire & Ice Revenants). Wave 12 takes longer than it should if you ignore the wisps (and i have had test-throughs with others where the wave takes 5 mins+ because people ignore the strategy). Wave 13 might take a while because the Blood-Gills (for some reason) cast their version of Touch of Blight (or whatever it's called) a 100 miles away (probably due to their acquisition range). Wave 14 does take a while; simply because i don't want to overwhelm players (and because a single, well placed spell like Earthquake will obsolete that wave pretty quickly). I don't think Waves 1-10 are long at all. One thing i have thought is to change the way some waves spawn (all waves stagger their spawns over a predefined Wave Duration) - could make later waves spawn all mobs at once which will help to make them more challenging.

6) I suppose i don't want the game to become a zerg-fest. You'll have to forgive me because i haven't tested it on single player for a while now, but at least on multiplayer, nuking down a group of mobs in quick time is very doable (point in case: a well placed/timed Starfall can decimate half a wave in no time; easily done if you have a team, not so much if you're solo).

THAT SAID! I will be looking to add a wave composed of mobs that have high damage but low health, because i agree in the respect that, once you've killed half a wave, you can't really lose so in most cases it just becomes a snooze fest whilst you finish up the wave.

7) Intended. All waves are randomized and become more difficult or easy depending on their composition. Makes each game less predictable (since the "Chapter" is the same every game). It might suck, but if you don't shy away from potions, you should survive early waves no problem.

8) Perhaps. Some heroes are burstier than others, which i don't think is bad. The only prime example i think this is bad is on Wave 7's Hydras (very fast regeneration and some heroes have to whack them forever until they're dead). Generally the heroes that lack burst might be a bit lacking on their overall damage, so might appreciate a damage boost to their other skills (Example: Cairne only has Warstomp and Shockwave).

In fact the only major burst "proc" in the game belongs to Arthas. Rokhan's Snakebite isn't really a proc, it just adds a nuke-element to his Serpent wards (so they do nice damage in the event they get killed in 2 seconds after summon).

9) Perhaps again. One thing to consider is that there is a huge pool of loot items, so getting an 8-cost item at level 1 means that, although you can't have it now, you can save up for it and get it later (since higher cost loot is better than lower cost). That 8-cost item has no guarantee of appearing.

10) That's probably just an error on my part. Initially i didn't want them to be sellable, but since i wanted to put in end-game items, i realize that people probably don't want to keep all of their items. So yeah, things will be sellable (sell prices will equal the cost of the soul used to make an item). Also there is a hardcoding issue with items that have mana costs; they only show their mana-cost on tooltip if they can be sold, which gives me more reason to make them sellable.

11) You're probably right with that item. Obviously early game it is ridiculously overpowered, but once you get to the attribute-bonus phase, it's actually useless (and harmful). I could simply remove it from the item pool after wave X, and lower its cost to make it more accessible.

12) Rushing items is a thing i want to happen, or for people to consider. That, and there is only 15 waves at the moment (i'm aiming for at least 20). One important thing to consider about those items is that they offer permanent stat bonuses; they don't HAVE TO take up inventory space. And since stats increase all of your damage, they offer some kind of trade-off (e.g. you have to hold rune of empowerment for as long as you can, heart of searinox takes 5 turns to get all the stat bonus).

13) I have heard this before. I'm still hesitant to do it because in multiplayer it allows for fluid picking (e.g. if you pick a range hero, and then your team decides to take all ranged heroes, you can change your choice to a tank or something). What i may do is shorten the level 1 start time (since waiting 25 secs to pick, and 40 secs for wave 1 to start is boring).

14) For testing purposes i have implemented a -quick command, which reduces level delays. This will become a Player 1 command that can be toggled on/off at any point in the game.

I hope this explains some of the things you found , and thanks again for some of the issues you have brought to my attention.

 

[Kino]

1) Perhaps. Though i have to be careful with that since if things like CCs, stuns and heals become highly spammable, it will make any wave cakewalk.

TBH most CC effects are way too long for this game type anyway. Hex lasts 30 secs, Muradin's passive bash is 5 seconds! (at level 2)

I want to be wary with buffing Recover because in my opinion, his 45% evasion and HP bonus from metamorphosis already provide excellent survival benefits.

I dont think it need a straight up buff so much as rebalance. It scales very well as of now, it just feels incredibly lacklustre before wave 6-7.

It might suck, but if you don't shy away from potions, you should survive early waves no problem.

Its more about the first level, and if you get a golem heavy spawn certain heroes (Varimathras) cant beat that wave, even if you blow both your starting potions.

Perhaps. Some heroes are burstier than others, which i don't think is bad.

Its not really about being having equally good burst as it is about simply having any damage at all. Case in point; Muradin. His damage outside of storm bolt is so poor that I found the most effective way to beat the game with him was to literally play at range and snipe enemies with storm bolt.

Rushing items is a thing i want to happen, or for people to consider

Well, the issue I have is that even if you get lucky and rush a empowerment rune, it never seemed more useful that simply itemising normally.

I have heard this before. I'm still hesitant to do it because in multiplayer it allows for fluid picking (e.g. if you pick a range hero, and then your team decides to take all ranged heroes, you can change your choice to a tank or something).

What I meant was that once -pick mode was decided, the option to select a hero should begin immediately instead of having to wait for the (first) mode select countdown. Not in the sense of being to lock in your picks immediately.

5) Perhaps. Wave 11 is still pretty fast IMO (Fire & Ice Revenants). Wave 12 takes longer than it should if you ignore the wisps (and i have had test-throughs with others where the wave takes 5 mins+ because people ignore the strategy).....

I personaly think its more a hero damage issue than it is about monster life. In my testing at least; Rokhan, Thrall and Illidan seem to maintain a good feel of balancing damage/survivability all game long. Muradin/Cairne have very low damage. Arthas is just OP, his damage and survivability is through the roof, I ended my run with him with around 100+ str/5k life, now factor his innate regen and 2 heal spells.

 

[pick-a-chew]

TBH most CC effects are way too long for this game type anyway. Hex lasts 30 secs, Muradin's passive bash is 5 seconds! (at level 2)



I dont think it need a straight up buff so much as rebalance. It scales very well as of now, it just feels incredibly lacklustre before wave 6-7.



Its more about the first level, and if you get a golem heavy spawn certain heroes (Varimathras) cant beat that wave, even if you blow both your starting potions.



Its not really about being having equally good burst as it is about simply having any damage at all. Case in point; Muradin. His damage outside of storm bolt is so poor that I found the most effective way to beat the game with him was to literally play at range and snipe enemies with storm bolt.


Well, the issue I have is that even if you get lucky and rush a empowerment rune, it never seemed more useful that simply itemising normally.



What I meant was that once -pick mode was decided, the option to select a hero should begin immediately instead of having to wait for the (first) mode select countdown. Not in the sense of being to lock in your picks immediately.



I personaly think its more a hero damage issue than it is about monster life. In my testing at least; Rokhan, Thrall and Illidan seem to maintain a good feel of balancing damage/survivability all game long. Muradin/Cairne have very low damage. Arthas is just OP, his damage and survivability is through the roof, I ended my run with him with around 100+ str/5k life, now factor his innate regen and 2 heal spells.

Might be a valid point, though being able to disable an enemy when you have 10 coming towards you is handy and also not that powerful.

I did test the early levels extensively by myself and never got a horde of golems, though using RNG will sometimes give extremes i guess.

Yeah i am aware Muradin's damage is a bit pants. He's a great tank, but beyond that he doesn't do much else. Ideally he will be spamming Thunder Clap as much as possible for its damage & slow so he can continue to sustain tanking.

Maybe. To be fair those items haven't been in testing for that long, and i myself haven't seen it pop up early game yet. Would you consider that the Cursed Cache has a similar problem? (increases your soul bonus by 5 i think it is).

I see. That should be doable and probably makes sense (though the game-mode selection period is quite short anyway). It also depends if i add game modes that affect hero selection in any way (e.g. banning a broken hero or something), since currently the entire selection system is generated when the mode timer ends.

You're right there. Some heroes ramp up insanely at the end stages of the game. I'm not really sure what to about this but it causes me problems when designing later levels (mobs are starting to get a lot of health).

I have added a new version (which doesn't feature fixes for a lot of things you've mentioned ). I'll be working on those next.

 

[Kino]

Would you consider that the Cursed Cache has a similar problem? (increases your soul bonus by 5 i think it is).

Never encountered it in my tests.

You're right there. Some heroes ramp up insanely at the end stages of the game. I'm not really sure what to about this but it causes me problems when designing later levels (mobs are starting to get a lot of health).

To me it is how Arthas' skillset works.
- While most heroes have to invest more effort to kill a more dangerous monster, Arthas can remove any (non-resistant) monster with a single button regardless of how much health it has.
He can also cheese the Night elf wave pretty easily using pact and then immediately coiling the wisp when it spawns.
- Everything he does scales off str, he only needs to stack 1 stat the entire game. Death coil has a low cooldown and he comes with unholy frenzy, there's no need to build for damage as his skillset provides a lot of it innately, both in burst and in sustain.
- His ult is the only channeling ult that auto-defends the caster as you channel. Combine that with being innately tanky and there is really no trade-off to stopping to channeling his ult whenever and wherever he wants, while other heroes have to consider positioning and safety.

 

[pick-a-chew]

Death Pact and Dark Ritual are meant to be groovy like that; they're longish cooldowns that can one-shot any mob. Compared to something like Storm Bolt, Cripple or Hex that deal a lot of damage and disable/impair the target, there's not that much of a difference.

That's a good point. I did try to design heroes to have a spell that uses a different attribute. Initially i wanted Army of the Dead to also summon an additional minion based on his highest stat (with agility being the best, int good and strength standard) though never figured out how to do that.

The spell probably needs a rework anyway. I made it channeling as a (triggering) experiment; i think it might be better if it just instantly summons the ghouls and then maybe give Death Coil a special interaction with ghouls (e.g. explode them, fully heal them, transform them, idk). I could bring in another attribute that way too.

 

[DEE-BOO]

Long time no feedback
Found some bugs.

Replay 0.16a

• Throne of Legends appeared twice.
  
  

Replay 0.16a 2

• Egg sack spawned on a cliff and the poor spider was stuck.
  
  
• An item was visible next to the farm.
  
  

• There was a point in the game where Muridin's spells where not killing the last enemy, but healed it instead :| They would get a Banish SPFX when it happened.
  
  
  
  
• Font of Life never disappeared, so if Font of Life wasn't chosen, I'd have three auras.
  
• Shop arrows where appearing on my hero during boss the fight

No suggestions today

 

[Acutesharpness]

XD dang

 

[pick-a-chew]

• There was a point in the game where Muridin's spells where not killing the last enemy, but healed it instead :| They would get a Banish SPFX when it happened.
  
  
  
  
• Font of Life never disappeared, so if Font of Life wasn't chosen, I'd have three auras.
  
• Shop arrows where appearing on my hero during boss the fight

No suggestions today

Eggs spawning in weird places isn't really something i can prevent (well, i can, but it will involve some complicated triggering) - so i think the 1% of spiders that get stuck will just have to deal with it .

The other .16a things you found should be fixed.

Shop arrows will be going away eventually and shop range will be increased.

That Muradin bug is just weird.... i think it might happen due to Concussive Blows breaking the game. I'll look into it later today.

 

[Kino]

Did a bit more messing around with Varimathras.
- Cripple has a rather long cooldown considering it is the only skill which has burst.
- Sleep rank 2 is rather overkill. 80 second disable with 4 second cooldown pretty much allows you to face a wave 1 creep at a time. Though considering his combat stats, it can sometimes be neccessary, hardly fun though.
- Carrion Swarm is rather inefficient damage wise, as his str stat is pretty low.

Off Topic: I need to steal your tooltip formats, they are so neat

 

[Acutesharpness]

Why not steal it, change it and cheat thief ;P

 

[pick-a-chew]

Did a bit more messing around with Varimathras.
- Cripple has a rather long cooldown considering it is the only skill which has burst.
- Sleep rank 2 is rather overkill. 80 second disable with 4 second cooldown pretty much allows you to face a wave 1 creep at a time. Though considering his combat stats, it can sometimes be neccessary, hardly fun though.
- Carrion Swarm is rather inefficient damage wise, as his str stat is pretty low.

Off Topic: I need to steal your tooltip formats, they are so neat

I may reduces it's cooldown.

Sleep's a bit of a weird spell that doesn't really work on multiplayer either; i am thinking of changes for it.

Maybe. I used Varimathras as the base hero and found out his stat gains are imbalanced (initially 4.5 int per level, what??). I may just use the normal dreadlord stats instead.

I do like my tooltip formats; though they are sort of inspired from the tooltips you see in Enfos MT, so i can't take the credit

 

[Kino]

Maybe. I used Varimathras as the base hero and found out his stat gains are imbalanced (initially 4.5 int per level, what??). I may just use the normal dreadlord stats instead.

Well, using the base stats of standard heroes is rather odd. Most oft he campaign characters have huge stat gains (as you have noted). Also most the standard agility heroes have pretty poor main stat gains.

On a side note, I also think that the soul reward for wave 1 could be higher. As of now the only buyable item is a +3 Int mantle.

 

[pick-a-chew]

Potions cost less than 15 souls.

Actually most campaign heroes share the stats of their standard counterparts, it's just those that have no melee version (e.g. Varimathras is a modified dreadlord with different spells) have funky stats i didn't pay attention to

The agility thing was a complaint i received early on and it was something i rectified; all agility heroes now gain ~2.5 agility per level instead of the melee 1.5.