The State of Things

Originally Posted by Ash

I propose that we talk about the skills needed to be an admin,

I would not say it requires any special "skills" to be an admin, or a moderator for that matter. In my opinion, it takes good old fashioned trust.

Originally Posted by Ash

what is expected of an admin

I think it's not a matter of what we should tell them to do, but what we can allow them to do. This varies from person to person. Some people can be trusted of some things, and others other things.

Originally Posted by Ash

and, if possible, a new way to elect admins.

First and foremost, Ralle made a site. Second, he wants users on his site. More on this later.

Originally Posted by frostwhisper

Overlooking the Rules when it comes to a staff member

The way I see it, we're all users. Only difference is the staff has powers. Removing those powers in not a punishment either.

Originally Posted by frostwhisper

Long term users/users with certain amount of rep using grunt icon as a symbol to their tribute to the site.

Well the icons are another matter, but such a thing does seem like it might be worth recognizing.

Originally Posted by frostwhisper

Possibly give those users the ability to read threads in the mod-only forum. Read. Not write in.

Hehe, there sure are some people who would like that. :p

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Now the more I mentioned earlier.

Originally Posted by Me

he wants users on his site.

It's one thing to have a site, this opens up a whole new can of worms. We'll call those worms "posts".

Okay, so not only does he want to have users on his site, he wants them to be able to upload their Warcraft III resources. What's more, he wants to place reasonable limits on posts and resources. This leaves us with a bunch of posts and resources.

Step 1 would obviously be to tell the users his guidelines for posts and resources. Easier said than done, as the user may not read the rules. No need to panic, just because they didn't read them doesn't mean they wont follow them anyway.

On the flip side, just because the user does read the rules, does not mean they will follow them.

Step 2, enforce the rules. Edit or delete posts and resources. Inform misbehaving users of the rules. What's that? You told them the rules directly and they still insist on disobeying them? Well, maybe we would be better off without this user period.
That was easy.

Okay, so, we have thousands of users. Not so easy anymore. Ralle cannot handle it all himself.

Step 3, pass the buck. Get other people to help you do the work of enforcing the rules. Well it's just been Ralle so far, so there was no question of whether or not the rules were being enforced correctly or not. So now you need to wait until, somehow, you end up meeting a person who you know will enforce your rules correctly.

Well it might be hard to find someone a lot like you, so you may have to settle for someone who can be trusted with some things, but not with others. For example, you might find someone who you can trust to approve or reject resources, but they would also use their power for the wrong reasons. They might ban someone just because they dislike them.

Realistically, you will find very few people who can be trusted to enforce all of your rules as you yourself would. You will have to end up giving people power in one area, but not in another. What powers a user can be trusted with vary from one person to the next.

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If everything were to stay within these bounds, then a user would either be content, or they can GTFO because they directly disagree with Ralle's rules.

Of course, Ralle can change these rules at any time. One reason might be so that users that disagree with Ralle's rules would not leave. Another reason has to do with the storage method of resources and posts. Anyone can access posts and resource to view their contents.

You see, there are people that would be willing to cause unpleasant happenings to Ralle. These people might come should one of the resources or posts violate some claims that someone might have relating to their content. Since there are so many of these people, it would be wise for Ralle to change his rules to disallow such content, so as to not be held criminally liable.

In addition, there is one more thing that allows users to change the content of this site. It can be found here. The user generated content found therein, is different from resources and posts. You see, it is strictly temporary. This information can only be proven to originate from The Hive Workshop within about 15 seconds after its submission. Because of this, the latter reason Ralle might change the rules, mentioned above, does not reasonably apply to this area.

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It appears to me that it is not Ralle's rules that many people are having a problem with. The problem seems to be coming when step 3 is not followed. People are given power that they cannot be trusted with. The people that cannot be trusted to carry out Ralle's rules have power, and the people that feel the abuse are inevitably the users.

The solution to this problem is simple:
Undo the incorrect action. Remove the previously given powers that a user cannot be trusted with. There should be no complaints on any party of this action, because the only ones who complain, would be the ones losing the power, or people who do not agree with Ralle's rules.
The ones losing power should not complain, because, honestly, being a simple peon is not a bad thing.
The ones who disagree with Ralle's rules should, again, GTFO.







HEY! You!
Yeah you. Don't think I didn't see you trying to scroll past my post. You scroll right back to the top and read it the whole way through.

Just a little add-in from my end before I talk about other things in a later post.

The arena is, pretty much, dead. I've edited a pre-existing system that could, possibly, revive the arena (along with adding new features) but it's still being looked at by the admins.

http://hiveleague.exofire.net/ - That's the demo that I've set up for people to view.

Originally Posted by Ash

As the first subject, I'd like to jump into the deep end somewhat and talk about Admins. These are people who run the Hive, the manage day to day tasks and, should, be well known within the userbase. Only, there are 3 problems with that last sentence.

1) Our admins don't run the hive, they dictate it,

2) Our admins don't manage day to day tasks,

3) Who are our admins?

The third point ties in with our Webmaster, Ralle, who has been seen less and less lately. These are major issues for the hive, as without a functioning admin team, then we fail at the most rudimentary of tasks.

All in all, I can say that I know one admin. Ghan. Now, I'm sure he'll be mentioned later on, Ghan is usually seen about every now and then, although he hardly ever talks to users, or does as many things as he used to when he was ranked lower within the site.

Because of this, I propose that we talk about the skills needed to be an admin, what is expected of an admin and, if possible, a new way to elect admins.

There are only 3 of our administrators who deserve to be there, or, let's rather say, are actually good enough to be there. I had already mentioned this in another topic, but I'll say it again:

1. Samuraid: He's the ONLY one who really deserves this position. Why? Because he is the only one capable of helping on the technical part.
   I reported a bug with Reparse, and the next day, it was fixed. Could any other administrator do this? No.
2. Archian: Inactivity WARNING, yes, but he's capable of leading the site, he has the right character to do so. Pity he's inactive.
3. Bob27: He knows well what he can do as an administrator, he knows when to ask for Ralle's opinion and when he doesn't need to do so. He is fast. What else needs to be said? Oh yes, he's inactive. But let me tell you one thing: I prefer having a not-so-active administration than having this silly alternative.

And now you might question, why not Wolverabid? Hell, he was promoted so fast I got the feeling he only wanted power. If he ever reads this and gets disappointed with me, I'm sorry, but that's the feeling I got, I'd be an hypocrite if I denied. I won't mind if he comes back though, even with this impression, I cannot deny that Wolverabid has been the administrator that has been most friendly with the users.

As for Ghan. So far he has done nothing as administrator that he could not do as a global moderator, so why the promotion? That's all I have to say. He fits well as a staff member... but administrator? He is the exact counterpart of Bob.

Originally Posted by frostwhisper

(...)
- Lack of activity in the Arena: Ya know, I approached Rui 6 times (2 in his profile and 4 via chat) to open up the long overdue Terrain Contest #3, without any answer. Complete ignore. It wasn't until Gilles came back form his vacation that someone started the competition. I really think some mods should get in shape and do their jobs at answering the users' needs (similar to the admins).
(...)

Sorry, but where did you contact me? So this is what you were talking about when you said that I was "ignoring the users"? Well, that sure is a nice way to remind me of things.

But let's get to the point. I don't read my private messages that often, sometimes there's a period when I read them more (when I send out private messages and await for answers, that is), and sometimes I don't look at the window at all. But I eventually get to read them. Instead of posting in my profile, which is just another spambase, why didn't you send a private message?

And as for the contest, Gilles is the host, I don't think I should touch his work.
But besides that, I don't know the UTM as much as I thought I did, thus no Terraining Challenge 2008/2009. And there's Gilles's Terrain Contest, so why bother?

Additionally, you have to understand that I moderate an entire category of forums, I spend my life reviewing the threads on the Help Zone because I have to tag the threads, and these users just won't stop double-posting.
I suggested to Ralle that users be somehow allowed to tag their thread as [Solved], but as I foresaw, he won't bother -- either because it messes with vB or it's just too complicated scripting. I accept both reasons nonetheless, he didn't reply because he thinks I will accept neither.
Right now I've stopped moderating Maps due to the Pending Map cleanup announcement. To be honest, however, I rarely moderate maps. You can often see melee maps moderated by me, but I get tired of those too.
This is not your fault. Frankly it's my state of spirit's fault. I'm tired, and to know that holidays are over in a month (more or less) gives me the creeps and gets me off the mood completely. I know, you have nothing to do with this and you don't give a damn, but with this I am asking you only to have a bit of comprehension and patience when it comes to waitings.

The same goes for CMarket's cinematic contest plea. I don't know the [contest] Rules, and I do not feel like moderating cinematic contests either.

Point is, people tried to look up to you as an alternative while Gilles was away, and didn't get an answer. Even a "no" would be better than no answer, because that's where you lose the user-mod relations and weaken the site...

Oh and to let you know, I'm not trying to point the finger at you, I was just giving this as an example, I'm sure the scenario has repeated throughout the site with others.

Main problem - poor moderation.

Main cause - poor moral, poor communication, and some awful moderators.

Moderators need to be level headed, competant at English to a sufficient degree to communicate, at least reasonably knowledgeable in their field, and able to deal with stuff sensible.

A good moderator can spot and avoid a flame war developing from a few days out normally (unless you have two people active and online at the same time, in which case things can turn very bad, very fast).

In order to do that, they need three main features:
- Respect.
- Level-headed-ness.
- Consistency.

Quite a few mods lack one or both. Let's be honest, most people don't respect Werewulf or MH, and neither can stay level-headed. They are both also totally inconsistent. This also applies to quite a few other mods - particularly on the inconsistency.

Moderation on THW is totally inconsistent. Sometimes you get nothing, sometimes you get a week ban, etc.. The result of all this? A chronic breakdown in order and, most importantly, the collapse of trust between staff and member.

Consistency is vital for trust. It doesn't exist in the staff-member relationship. What's the solution? Well, really it's in two parts:

- Better moderators.
- Admin leadership.

Better moderators just comes down to picking respectable and competant individuals. That means get rid of people like DSG, MH, etc.. In terms of admin leadership, you need some admins out there, leading by example, TALKING to staff. Mods and admins need to be able to communicate as equals.

If you don't trust someone, don't make them a mod. Mods here seem to constantly look over their shoulders at the admins in the sky for approval. You can have some admins dealing with the technical side in the background, but some admins need to be out there, in the forums and the chat.

And mods need to be trusted. I cannot overstate the importance of this. The moderation at WC3C works because every mod is trusted to deal with stuff in a sensible way, and can talk to the admins when they need support or advice.

THW lacks that strong moderation team, which may perhaps add to the admin team's lack of trust in them (I wouldn't trust a large part of the THW mod team), but you need to actually let the mods get on with their jobs without micromanaging. I'm not sure if you do micromanage, but the impression from the staff is that they have very little power.

Finally, the staff need to have respect from the user base. You don't. This is in a large part due to bad moderators and large amounts of inconsistency. This provides a major problem, as a large proportion of the quality people on THW now wouldn't touch staff positions with a barge pole.

My suggestion? Purge the moderators, and demote map reviewers from staff positions (really, you CANNOT have enough trusted people to review all those maps). Get in an active admin who's got respect and is sensible. I'd strongly suggest Ash.

Originally Posted by Captain Griffen

Main problem - poor moderation.
My suggestion? Purge the moderators, and demote map reviewers from staff positions (really, you CANNOT have enough trusted people to review all those maps). Get in an active admin who's got respect and is sensible. I'd strongly suggest Ash.

Agreed, second, and QFT.

Last time I saw a post by VGSatomy was months ago...

And don't worry, this is not a freaking revolution, it's an attempt to work together for the good of the site.

Originally Posted by Rui

Oh god, I almost laughed here. Sorry for the irony, and sorry for the question I'm about to make, but is this an attempt to get Ash to administrator position? Let's demote VGsatomi, Mecheon and General Frank, shall we? I awesomely lol'ed.

Ash is the right man for the job. Frank's awesome and Mecheon's okay, but not really as far as I can tell what you need for an admin, particularly not right now.

Choosing admins should be based on who's best for the job.

frost's example is invalidated by the fact that wulf has banned me more than any one else.

As for this whole concept of Ash for admin... I just have to fucking laugh. His actions over the past while speak volumes for why we should ban him, not why we should make him an admin. He's recently tried to lie to the staff, for one. (Does that fit in with ANYONE's idea for an ideal hive? >_>) But really, this isn't about flaming Ash, so I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Rui

Oh god, I almost laughed here. Sorry for the irony, and sorry for the question I'm about to make, but is this an attempt to get Ash to administrator position? Let's demote VGsatomi, Mecheon and General Frank, shall we? I awesomely lol'ed.

There are two kinds of people on the Hive, the ones that suggest things and try to make improvements, and the ones who are constantly knocking things down, not making suggestions and are generally pessimistic or don't even know when issues are arising.

For a start, you're certainly in the latter category at the moment.

I'd also like to pick up on a point you stated earlier, too:

Additionally, you have to understand that I moderate an entire category of forums, I spend my life reviewing the threads on the Help Zone because I have to tag the threads, and these users just won't stop double-posting.

Right now I've stopped moderating Maps due to the Pending Map cleanup announcement. To be honest, however, I rarely moderate maps. You can often see melee maps moderated by me, but I get tired of those too.

Some mods are extremely over stretched in their duties, due to others not being active etc, and maybe you should take the map moderating position into serious consideration, as after the pending maps are removed there will be lots of work to do, if you don't have the time and/or don't want to put the effort into it, should you not relinquish that position to someone who does?

EDIT: @EF, etc, I lied to the staff because you all disliked the concept that I have my own freedom to make a satrical website. I moved the servers in an attempt to stop you all crying about it, as I can't see why the site should be brought down.

That aside, this thread is hitting a shitstorm when the rest of the moderation team came out to play. I hope that you're all happy in your attempts of ruining this thread, something in which has been a long time coming and, if your actions (speech etc) remain the same, will continue to be.

Originally Posted by frostwhisper

- Possibly give those users the ability to read threads in the mod-only forum. Read. Not write in.

In all honesty, what goes on there doesn't concern non-mods for more than one or two threads.

In those one or two threads, being unable to post in them would defeat the purpose of seeing them at all.

Originally Posted by Scyth-Master

That said, I agree with FrostWhisper. Earth-Fury is a nuisance on chat.

Just out of curiosity, why are you giving opinions on the chat when you've been banned for it as long as I can remember?

As for the old Earth Fury thing, I don't really follow it, but why is no one providing chat logs if they so dearly hate what he's doing?

Originally Posted by Steel_Stallion

If any of you Moderators tell me you do not look down on users because they have less reputation You are fucking bullshitting me.

Oh, damn, you got me. Without knowing at all what I do, what I say behind the scenes, how I judge rulebreakers, and my frequency of giving out positive/negative rep, you know everything about me.

Originally Posted by Steel_Stallion

I am so fucking sick of seeing the little people of this site get pushed around, because other people are getting respected for Rep Parties and saying stupid things and having more friends on this site than anyone else.

Reputation is a means for such people, not the means.

Originally Posted by Steel_Stallion

Smarten the fuck up and learn to use the system.

One of the main problems people have with it is that there's no clear way to use the system.

Originally Posted by Rui

I suggested to Ralle that users be somehow allowed to tag their thread as [Solved]

Judging by how the system works, I get the impression that they'd need full power over the WEHZ, or at the very least tagging power over every thread, to be able to do that.

Originally Posted by Captain Griffen

Ash is the right man for the job.

Ash has pretty icy relations with a lot of the staff recently (including admins)... I imagine that wouldn't go down so well.

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I find the biggest problem recently (at least in dealing with Spell moderation promotions, etc), to be finding people who are both suitable for the job and will take it.

There are rather too few of those right now.

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The person I find I'm agreeing here most with is Hakeem, and then Captain Griffen.

Ash for admin suddenly? And yet one of our problems is moderators being promoted too quickly.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by PurplePoot

As for the old Earth Fury thing, I don't really follow it, but why is no one providing chat logs if they so dearly hate what he's doing?

I did. I sent them to Mecheon, and then EF got his chat powers removed.

While we're on the subject of staff not being trusted, the whole 'you must be a mini-mod first' thing is totally messed up, on several levels.

- It tells staff you don't trust them.
- It discourages people who want to moderate for the right reasons becoming mods.
- The best people to moderate are not the best people to resource mod.

The good thing about the mini-mod thing is that it does give you some method of testing out people you're not exactly sure on, without giving them too much power in one go.

Though, admittedly, it would be better to just restore the resource mod distinction.