WMW The Next Generation 2.0

[wSk_Avatar]

I finally got mail...

Hi xxx,

The issue is not JASS or GUI triggers. The issue stems from the fact that the design of the map is infact identical to TTW, which WMW created and based on. TTW was the 1st map in the linear age which used the dual defender / goalie layout / ship concept. See the actual triggers and events used to preload your map, are identical to ours, and were originally created by us, I can see this based on the triggers you have posted. Above that, my problem lies in the exact fact that you are making changes which exist in our map, cause that is copying, regardless of what map you make them in, it is still copying. We have never had an issue with WMW cause it has never used concepts we have before applied to our map. You are now starting to create things in your map, which may look slightly different, but in idea are just carbon copies of concepts and ideas which we have long ago added to our map.

Outside of that, have you even played TTW, I suggest you do, because it is MUCH further down the development road and now has an entire development staff dedicated to improving it, and has many concepts in it which we definitely claim as our own. Consider you had created a map, and someone else had based their map off yours (not too big of an issue if it had its own concept / ideas / style), but then someone else started copying the stuff your map did, and begun adding that to this copied concept, would you approve? I doubt it. Our map also has various windows based tools to assist users in creating mazes, and allows them to save and view these mazes later. As I said, we do not have an issue with your continuation of the WMW series, and wish you luck in doing so, BUT if you continue to cross paths with concepts already placed in TTW we are going to continue our reports on your map. Just remember lastly WMW is based on our map design, and TTW was used as the base for creating WMW, so please show some courtesy for the people responsible for that.

Regards,

Atrum-Amicus

Managing Director
Team TTW
Cell: (xxx) xxx xxxx
Web: Tropical Towerwars
Email: Atrum-Amicus_at_Tropical-Towerwars.co.cc
Alternate: ATrum.Amicus_at_GMail.com

"if your job is hard, be thankful. Razors don't get sharpened on pieces on velvet"

First of all I dislike the word 'copy' you use. My content may have something in common with yours, but telling me I 'copied' your triggers,etc. is simply wrong. Since I still don't know your map I invented these triggers together with a friend of mine (Just-for-Honor). You might compare this to the invention of the TV. It was invented at about the same time, but spatial divided(in Germany and in America) by two different people using slightly different concepts. This was during WW II and the Nazis for sure wouldn't have leaked research information to their enemies, would they? So please don't accuse me of copying your content. My 'fans' and I worked on this map together to improve it.

When I look in your forums I see that you don't have waypoints in the mdidle of your spots. I don't like that. --> One reason to make a version that I like.
When I see that you have tools that assist people mazing and other 'bots' that do I don't know what. I don't like that. --> Another reason to make a version I like.

I don't know your concepts for the future so I don't know if mine have something in common with it.

I wonder why you haven't had any problems with other WMWs, but with mine. I think you really are afraid of my version competing with yours... That's not my intention and I don't know how you might think that. Your site has 300k hits every month while this site has had 1500 within 2...

 

[wSk_Avatar]

Sry for double-posting, but the content of this post really differs from the one in the post before.

I tested your tropical tower wars in single player and I noticed the things our 2 maps have in common aren't as common as they might seem...

Map layout:

similarities: Despite the tileset almost the same
differences: Tileset



Shrines:

similarities: Both maps have shrines that summon creeps.
differences: My map has 2 shrines that are the same and can be used simultaneously. Yours has two shrines(one normal and one boss) that can't be used at the same time.



Creeplimit:

similarities: We both have a creeplimit
differences: You limit the amount of creeps to be sent within one wave to 15 at max. I limit the amount of creeps to be on one team's side to 90. This doesn't prevent you from summoning creeps.



Incometimer:

similarities: We both have an incometimer
differences: Mine is set to 25s, yours to 30



Starting Income:

similarities: We both have a starting income
differences: Mine is set to 25, yours to 35



Races

similarities: We both have races
differences: In your map you can 1 choose from over 30 races. In my version you can choose 2 from 10(11) races.



Number of towers of a race:

similarities: none
differences: My races have about 10 towers each, yours have about 5(with upgrades).



Tower upgrades:

similarities: none
differences: My races don't have 'different' towers. You can say every race has Level 1 to X towers - every higher tower can be made either by building or by upgrading a lesser one. Your races have different towers with different upgrades. Your concept is like Tower A Level 1 to X, Tower B Level 1 to X.



Tower limit:

similarities: none
differences: In my map no tower limit exists. You limit the number of towers a player can build.



Special Building:

similarities: none
differences: Each of your races possesses a unique special building with special abilities (in most of the cases upgrades for the races' tower)



Fog of war:

similarities: none
differences: In my version there is no fog of war. In yours there is, but it can be 'removed' for 15 seconds every 30 seconds. So if you want to know what the enemy team does at all times you have to talk to your m8s and click that s****d button every half minute...



Game modes:

similarities: very little: "-random"-command (for sure not a creation you can tell it's all yours because it's spread in lots of map types e.g. hero arenas, hero survivals, Enfos, Mauls, Tower defenses, Tower Wars,etc.,etc.)
differences: Some different game modes in your version, none in mine.



Lives:

similarities: both teams have lives and lose 1 if a creep enters the ship
differences: starting lives in my version set to 25, to 30 in yours



Waypoints:

similarities: both maps have waypoints
differences: your map has one waypoint: the ship. My map has 1 waypoint on each player's spot.



Triggers:

similarities: the general structure of the triggers may be similar because the gameplay is similar
differences: the way they work together in both versions is different and causes a really different gameplay-experience



I'm sure there are a lot more points to compare and to mention, but I think the points I mentioned showed that the maps seem to be similar and of course are in the very basis, but they vary a lot in detail.

My WMW attracts a totally different target group than your TTW. There are huge differences in gameplay issues and when I tested your map I really disliked it because it was totally different from the WMW I liked. I didn't like the tower limit, I didn't like the creep-limit the way you handled it, I didn't like that there were no way points in the middle of each player's spot. I disliked that there was only one shrine and I disliked the race-upgrades and your tower-upgrade-system. I disliked that there was only one race to choose. I also disliked the waves being 5 seconds longer than in my version and that I couldn't see what was going on on the other team's side. I disliked a lot of things in the short time I tried your map.

That doesn't mean the map is bad or that you and your team did shitty work. That's not my point. My point is that WMW TNG and most other WMWs are a totally different gaming experience than your TTW. Sure I could live with TTW if there was no WMW, but I would never play TTW when there was a WMW. It's just not the kind of game I like and many players feel like me, but there are lots of player feeling not like me who prefer TTW. The way I see it WMW TNG evolves into a totally different direction than TTW and has evolved in a different direction than TTW.

I'm okay with giving the one who originally thought of this concept of a two goalie-tower-wars credit, but I won't give your team any credit for the 'stolen' or 'copied' ideas. You might have had the ideas before I had them, but I didn't steal them from you. I mostly developed them myself (some I had from the community).

Btw. editing this map is a hobby of mine. I don't see it as business like you do. This whole things reminds me of how SONY treats people using parts of their musicians' music in their own creative works(not trying to earn any money with that). They don't care about anything else than seeing the one who did it punished and his work destroyed.

Good look if you're trying to achieve this and be happy if you completed your quest...

 

[wSk_Avatar]

I don't see the point in that... I could change all the models and this wouldn't change anything about how my map works. Can't imagine this is what you want to say.

I might remind you of what I said at the end: this is my hobby. I bet I won't be editing this map in 3 years not even in 1 year. Also I don't plan on evolving the map to the contents you like because our ambitions are totally different. You want to make a map everyone likes. I want to make a good map that I like. I told you all the things that I dislike about your map and accordingly this map will never evolve in this direction as long as I'm the one developing it.

edit: I bet you didn't even play my map. If you want to try a round you'll find out it's totally different.

 

[CloudMax]

Atrum-Amicus, just leave wSk alone, if you say "Look at the versions 3 years ago", ofc its possible that the triggers is pretty much the same, i mean... if you work on a map for 3 years you will have to make triggers similar to another map SOMETIME...
And why dont you go and flame all other WMW maps? This one is actually making updates which means that he is MAKING STUFF HIMSELF. so you cant just come here and say all that. Just leave sWk alone for gods sake, it is he's map and will always be.
If he gets permision from the former creator of the map, he can do w/e he wants with it since he have permission by the people that made the map he based it on.

And one more thing... I cant even open the stupid TTW map -.-''

 

[wSk_Avatar]

And one more thing... I cant even open the stupid TTW map -.-''

He protected the map so that no one can edit his map. I even wonder how I should steal his triggers if the map is protected...

I think if I could talk in German I would freak out, but my English word power is too bad to say all the things I have in mind...

We will see what the mods say... I'm fed up with this conversation. You won't listen to my arguments and you already formed your opinion and nothing I write can change anything about it. You've been way too long in this business and you can't see this with the eyes a normal map creator does. You're just paranoid looking for every map competing with yours that could have anything in common with yours no matter how small the similarities may be...

 

[CloudMax]

He protected the map so that no one can edit his map. I even wonder how I should steal his triggers if the map is protected...

I think if I could talk in German I would freak out, but my English word power is too bad to say all the things I have in mind...

We will see what the mods say... I'm fed up with this conversation. You won't listen to my arguments and you already formed your opinion and nothing I write can change anything about it. You've been way too long in this business and you can't see this with the eyes a normal map creator does. You're just paranoid looking for every map competing with yours that could have anything in common with yours no matter how small the similarities may be...

I mean that i cant play the map at all. I get back to the menu.
And like you said.... the pretends that you uses hes trigger when hes map is protected. And if he has any experience at all he should know by now that when unprotecting maps converts the triggers into Jass and this map is made in GUI. But i guess he will defend himself by saying "Look on the version about 3 year ago... blah.... blah..."

 

[wSk_Avatar]

I agree with him that the basic concept is the same, but the doesn't make the map the same...

If you follow this logic you had to say that all hero survival maps are the same. They all have their unique things, but the concept is the same - stay alive and kill what you can...

I just don't get it...

 

[UreDe4D]

i don't know where this discussion should lead to. Atrum-Amicus, IF you are the original creator of TTW, i don't see any point why you should start now with crying around that someone copys the idea of "your" map. there are so many types of maul wars, although some are better then others, (i'm not sure which TTW is last version, but seriously, for trying to balance it, you failed for like 20 versions...). Winter Maul Wars IS ofc the same map idea, but the terrain (which is minor), but also the races and race choosing is completely different.

I also didn't find TTW map in the download section (apart from an 5.0 version by Mr.Berlin), so i don't see any reason why wsk Avatar should not be allowed to post his map in the download section.

So please, for any admin who reads this, if there is no other good reason to reject the map (if there is one please state it here), please allow him to upload the map, i can guarantee that he made at least the triggers and most of the units by himself, because i was the guy helping him with it. i also found another maul wars in the download section which has been approved: Weird Maul Wars Beta 2.8 - The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site so give this guy a chance to spread his map around, making a finally balanced version of Wintermaul Wars possible.

Thank you for reading, urede4d

 

[CloudMax]

Hmm... I think i gonna give it a try and make a balanced version myself but insted of editing old maps, all i will keep is the building you send the units with but i may as well rebalance the units you can send. Since almost all WMW maps is totally out of balance.

 

[Rui]

I have decided to withdraw the rejected status.

It's impossible to prove by mere words if the map is stolen or not, but if it is, it is certainly not the first nor the last version of "Wintermaul Wars" that was copied. You'd have a long way to travel if you went to track them all down.
The map presents a number of differences, and if those differences contribute to the satisfaction of others, then it's only moral to accept it, and that's what "Tropical Tower Wars" will have to do.
Same gameplay is not an argument. How many maps work by buying creeps that walk in the enemies' defenses in hope of getting to an escape point? Plus what I said in the first paragraph.

Besides, for what I know about "Wintermaul Wars", the original versions were created by Duke Wintermaul.

I recommend wSk_Avatar to write an info-quest (in Quests, F9 or something) about this, to clear up any doubts.

 

[King Bushido]

Glad to hear that you've worked and maybe releasing a new ver. soon.

 

[wSk_Avatar]

How come you notice a news update that fast? ^^

 

[King Bushido]

I'm checking this thread every day, that's why
I'm a WMW TNG addict, heh.

 

[wSk_Avatar]

Seems like you're on vacation, too ^^ It's kinda late here... ^^

 

[King Bushido]

Not really on Vacation, I'm just bored.
The weather in germany is kinda stupid. not really worth to go out
Can't wait for it.

Plus, I rarely can get on Bnet, because my Key is always in use,

 

[wSk_Avatar]

When I'm not on vacation I can't afford to be bored and hang around the computer at 2 am ^^

Why don't you buy yourself an own WC3? It isn't that expensive anymore.

 

[King Bushido]

I own Wc3, but somehow, some1 ripped my Key and now I can barely get on.
And yes, I know it isn't expensive (10€) but I'm a lazy man, lulz.
anway, this goes way to off-topic.
Can't wait for it.
And if I can make a suggestion: Increase the power of the strange race, I don't want to make a huge maze just to kill Orc Elite..30 towers I usually do as a maze.

 

[wSk_Avatar]

Strange race is very strong. If I make it even stronger then it will be totally imba in big mazes. Strange race is a race that requires a big maze because every tower itself sucks very hard.

Personally I like big mazes far better than small ones because you use the full potential of almost every tower in it. Also I can react way better to the creeps the opponent sends because the need lots of time to go through my maze. I think small mazes are worse than big ones because you usually spend lots of money to upgrade your small-mazes towers and they just aren't that effective. I can get a much higher income when building a big maze than building a small one. In my opinion a big maze is the key to survive and kill uppers. I usually won't kill the first Uppers, but I do that intentionally. I save the money for lumber to send Uppers myself to increase my income to about 20 lumber. With a big maze with slow towers you buy lots of time to increase your wood income and you can leak 10 Uppers without any problem and have a wood income of about 20-30wood. 2 rounds of sending 1 Upper and upgrading some towers for wood provides with you with good shelter from Uppers.

 

[King Bushido]

I can understand you, but the Point is, If I do a huge maze, it would cost alot of gold, I'll stay on a low income. I have a really good pc, (8gb ram, good graphic card) but it'll start to lagg like hell and that's not really the point of it. on other mauls I can understand to create huge mazes, but comon, wmw isn't that hard at all. I only had one good game so far. Anways, it's alright.

 

[wSk_Avatar]

I haven't experienced any lags ever and I hardly heard anyone complaining about lags...
Especially with strange race lags shouldn't be a problem because critters don't have any attack movements so the tower does nothing. I think it's more of a CPU problem when lags occur in huge mazes (My FPS go down heavily when big waves of creeps come, but it's always above 14 FPS so still playable.)
I hope there is no lag-problem that only other players but the host have which is caused by leaking triggers...

I guess even with strange race you can have a small maze. You'll just have to upgrade your towers more often.

 

[King Bushido]

It's only, if some1 has a huge maze and if upper comes. then it'll start to be laggy and not really playable anymore.

 

[CloudMax]

The game does lag if the mazes is to big even if you have a good computer or not, its the game itself that cant handle it, the game is builded for a few amount of units, thats what makes a big difference from Starcraft and Warcraft. Starcraft is designed for units of mass production when in wc3 you need to have tactics with a few amount of units. That was the purpose of the game.
To many units causes lag, blame battle.net and the Wc3 engine for that, not your computer.

And change the strange races attack objects, they are making me crazy, you cant freaking see anything, it destroys the gameplay. And so does that fact that you only can get strange race with luck. That causes unfair game. All players should be able to get the same and not something random. Also remove the stupid auto walk from the builder. It just destroys the game for the people that actually gets it.

 

[King Bushido]

The auto-walk is alrdy disabled, download 1.7d

 

[wSk_Avatar]

The things you blame me for were already fixed in 1.7d, LTGH. Towers weren't supposed to shoot units, it was a mistake of mine and I fixed it rather quickly. I'm just wondering why it's only me who doesn't experience lag. I know wc3-engine isn't made for big amounts of units and projectiles, but obviously average computers can handle them(my pc isn't that new). Btw. if you still have problems with lags you just might reduce your screen resolution a bit and lower your texture details. This should help a lot because I was able to play the game with a Voodoo 3 2000 (32MB graphics memory or so) and I had lags only late game.

edit: the graphcis card even had only 16MB SDR

edit #2: sorry to bother you guys, but I can't find the option to edit the questlog in wc3 ^^ If one of you guys could tell me this would really help I'm stuck on that right now and I hope to finish WMW TNG 1.8 this weekend(most of the work is already done).

 

[King Bushido]

You don't have one at all? I think you have to make one first..

 

[CloudMax]

Its not the computer that is the problem. It is the game.
I tryed it on my new computer i got yesterday, its a gaming computer and it costed 1511$...
I have no freaking idea why it wont lag for you. I also tryed on Garena to decrease the lag even more.
And "only late game"... dude.. Try to make it so that it never lags. Try to make a balanced version that makes it better to send a fewer amount of units or something. Making it better to spam weak units kinda just ruins everything. You just spam some shit until you have enough income to send the best unit. :S

 

[wSk_Avatar]

The bad thing is I can't understand your lag-problems because I don't ever experience them and as I said I could play it with a really bad graphics card. I know the game-engine is bad, but if it sucked so hard, I should have problems, too, and not only you guys...(I don't blame you for anything I just don't know what to do about it.)

Spamming usually isn't useful at all because the weak units get killed almost instantly so they shouldn't cre8 lag... Also there's the creep limit preventing players from spamming too hard.

"only late game" was with the Voodoo 3 2000 with low details,etc. in late game. I don't experience lag with my normal computer.

The problem with these games is that they live by sending huge amounts of creeps, but I think the creeps aren't really the problem causing lags. Maybe it's the towers or so... I just don't know and I think you almost can't cre8 this game without lag because of the engine that just isn't made for a map like this, but I'm too unexperienced to talk bout this...

@Bushido: Yes, I know there isn't a questlog, but I don't know how to create one...

 

[CloudMax]

It could be leaks in the triggers that causes the game to lag in late game. I havent checked myself. Try using a leak checker or something.

 

[wSk_Avatar]

If yo tell me where to get one I'd be glad

 

[CloudMax]

I cant seem to find one but a leak checker could also be a person you know
Go search for someone that is experienced with leaks and ask if he/she help you.

 

[GLB]

This is one of the rare "TD" I realy like to play! I gonna dl it...

 

[King Bushido]

Spelling error: After you sell a tower, it says "you revieced".

 

[wSk_Avatar]

Thanks, dude
I'll change it for the next version.

edit: Lol ^^ I didn't find the error at first. It says reveice

 

[King Bushido]

I didn't noticed it earlier too, I had a wmw game before I posted this and after blue left, I've selled his towers and it was "you revieced xyz gold for selling zyx" No problem.

Edit: I found a typo on "Skinky Skink". If I have the sheep, I want to upgrade to "Kinky skink" instead of "Skinky skink"

 

[wSk_Avatar]

It's better if you just post again instead of editing =)
Just saw your "edit" by accident.
Already fixed it, but it will come with the next version

Thanks a lot for telling me bugs

 

[King Bushido]

Actually no, because it'll result as a warning and -rep & stuff

 

[CloudMax]

True. Its against the rules to double post.
And you can get punished for doing that, its not a good idea.
You should regulary check the comments becouse you can expect people to edit their posts.


The best thing would be to tell the creator in a visitor comment that you edited, King Bushido.

 

[wSk_Avatar]

With the new "skin" of this website I can't see the map specifications on the comment pages, so I usually watch page 1 and see the counter...

 

[CloudMax]

Well, go to the last page after checking then.
Why would you even want to see the map info? You know about your own map already xP

 

[wSk_Avatar]

Looks like Atrum-Amicus gave my map a 1...

 

[King Bushido]

Is this still up or is it done?

 

[wSk_Avatar]

I can't even connect to BNet due to my new provider. I guess that anyway I wouldn't go one evolving the map. I just don't play wmw anymore and few others seemed to play it, too... For now no further development is planned.

 

[King Bushido]

Okay.

 

[wSk_Avatar]

Released a new version after some serious bug report!

 

[FeedMyInfection]

Really like this map, hope it gets approved soon