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60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

Why eat meat?

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by ManYouAreEvil, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. Maestros

    Maestros

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    We eat meat, among other things, because it is F O O D, and does us good. Bottom line, survival.


    I never realized there was a moral aspect in survival, but whatever lets hit it!


    We are at the top of the food chain.

    Us being in the top of the food chain, isn't an excuse for eating meat, survival is.

    Ok, assuming you are not dumb, i am gonna have to ask why do you state such thing.


    Since we are a part of the huge ecosystem called "Planet Earth" we have a natural place on the planet's food chain.


    Before speaking, and separating us from the food chain, and separating us from animals, get your facts straight will you? Every living organism on this planet, does what it has to do for survival. We all spread we all colonize. Let's take for example another meat eater, the shark. The shark goes to one area, and he eats for it's survival. If he clears the area of food, he goes on to the next one and so on. Does it mean the shark unbalances the ecosystem or plays "God"?


    You are right here, the fact that we are the top of the food chain doesn't mean we should eat meat. It means we CAN eat whatever we choose to eat.


    This is BS. The primitive humans, do you think they grew their own crops? Or you think they hunted animals for food? Only a few centuries ago? Define "Few". If few is 100 centuries then i agree with you.


    Can, must, and should, are different words, with no similar meanings. Get them straight before you put them in the same sentence.


    The Bible says that animals, vegetables, and humans are all God's creation, it doesn't forbid to eat animals but neither does it instruct such thing.


    A great deal of things.


    The things prementioned, are very concrete.


    No we are not, we are just at the top of the food chain.

    These are only a few of the concrete great deal of things that seperate us from animals.


    And smart, evolutionary, helping us survive.


    If i am understanding right, (because you haven't mentioned anywhere why "it is bad to eat meat") your problem comes with the killing of animals. It is unethical for you. Well as mentioned before, we eat meat for survival, nothing more. Everyone, kills, for survival.


    It is true that eating a lot of meant, can cause health problems. But ONLY if you ABUSE it. And also, just vegetable diet is not healthy and can also lead to disorders.

    Again, survival.

    Global aspect:

    I can assure you, that most of the worlds vegetable products, are for humans.

    Seriously, it's one of the following.
    Either you are really dumb, or you think we are dumb which is really insulting. We have DEFINITELY NOT chopped down forests to make room for corps. We have destroyed forests for explotation of underground resources, we have destroyed them to make room for houses, we have destroyed them to exploit woods, but we have NOT destroyed them for making farms or fields.

    We HAVE used the "cleaned" land afterwards for those purposes, but the reason we "cleaned" it was not making farms.


    Ok, now you are going out of the subject. But since you mentioned it. For your information, Carbon Dioxide raise, isn't the cause of Global Warming. However, Global Warming is the cause for Carbon Dioxide.

    Plain talk, when the planet heats, the CO2 increases. But it increases because the planet is already heated.
    CO2 has nothing to do with heating the planet. The only cause for the planets heat raise or drop, is the activity on the sun, which has increased in the last centurie, therefore, increasing Global Heat, therefore increased CO2 levels. Get your facts straight and don't support lies in order to power your argument.



    Already answered.


    Since its so basic biology (which i am not familiar with) it would be easy to find some proof of that.



    Ok. So now you are saying that eating meat is bad, because we have the need to create livestocks, and in those livestocks cows FART and pollute?
    Just farted now, enviromental holocaust.

    YEAH! Right! Give the goverments arround the world more excuses to cut us freedoms. Lets tax the meat so high so the poor can't buy it! Another great idea just got into my mind dude! Heat this out, when i exhale, i produce CO2, WHAT IF WE CALCULATE HOW MUCH I PRODUCE PER YEAR, AND PAY A TAX FOR IT??????



    Those things answered here is how the deal goes.

    We are a living organism of the planet.

    We are not as strong as other animals are.

    We are not as fast as other animals are.

    We do not have claws.

    What we do have is better.

    We have brains, which we can use to produce strength, speed, killing machines.
    Is it not MORAL of us to eat meat, because we kill animals?
    Why? Animals kill animals too? Why? Because we have advanced brains? Because we can manipulate things around us in a techonoligal way?
    Ever heard of green ants? They take a certain bug (dont know english word) which can produce silk, they bite it so it can produce silk to stick together leaves to create BUILDING LIKE NESTS. So what? The ants because they use their brains to communicate and use techological like techniques should be banned from eating meat?
    Ever heard of evolution? Yeah.

    How many species have dissapeared even before us humans?
    Lets say the dinosaurs.

    How many species have disapeared because of other animal hunters?
    Many.

    Evolution works much with the ability to adopt.

    If a cow cannot survive walking monkeys carring bazookas, so be it.

    If i take you, and throw you in battlefield, and you cannot adopt and survive, thats sad but its reality.
    If i take you, and throw you in a lake full of pirancha, and you cannot adopt and survive, thats sad, but thats its.

    Lets take the AIDS virus. All the virus cares about is SURVIVING, and REPRODUCTION. And if it wipes the human race of the face of the earth, so be it.
    What? Will it mean that the virus wasn't moral and fair to us?

    Also, for your information, there have been volcano explosions during the history of the planet which produced 2000 times the CO2 we produce in a year. So what? Isn't the planet still standing?

    Mother nature always finds a way, to proceed. Thats the way things have been since long before humans rose, and will be long after (if ever) humans fall.
     
  2. ManYouAreEvil

    ManYouAreEvil

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    First of, you seem to be under the illusion that the present homo sapiens sapiens is under the pressure of natural selection. Which we are not.

    We do not eat meat because of SURVIVAL, maybe our ancestors did. Maybe. Crop food has played a much more important role in human history than hunting, I dare to say almost no one lives on hunting his own food in the western civilization. But with that said, I am not saying that our ancestors (as far back as the early primates) lived exclusively on a vegetarian diet, but fruit and plants were it's primary source food for quite long until we learnt about cattle and livestock, which came about roughly the same as the first cities. I can try to write an exclusive post just for the evolution of mankind food habit, but I don't have the time for that as of now.

    The only people who eat food for their survival would be those in locations of starvation where no other food alternative is present. The average western citizen eats meat as a luxury, not for survival.

    The food chain;
    We are not on the food chain as we are neither predators or prey, we certainly hunt - but top on the food chain would conclude that we would be immune for other animals to hunt. As the human behaviour varies a lot from individuals, there are a large group of vegetarians (I'm not sure the exact number of how many vegetarians) but they would be on lower levels of the food chain, if you put yourself in an ocean with a shark you'd be eaten instantly (I'm aware that sharks don't normally eat humans, but as an example) without a chance, hence lowering you lower than the shark on the food chain. Since we vary so much, we are considered to be outside the food chain.

    As you asked of the energy pyramid, I'll give you a picture explaining it perfectly.

    [​IMG]

    Do we have a natural place in Earth's ecosystem?
    We seem to bypass and object to any evolutionary laws there are, we are not under the effect of natural selection due to technological advances.
    Do we evolve? Somewhat, but not in the way species naturally do.

    As of your example with the shark;
    Does the shark construct factories and manufactures that produce infinite amount of food that he could ever eat - for the sake of profit?
    Do we do things for survival? Are supermarkets for our survival?
    The food in the standard supermarket could probably feed a whole city for some time, instead it feeds just some because of overconsumism.
    Does the shark overconsume?
    Does the shark have an ecological footprint 50 times as big as it should be?

    Regarding religious people and human superiority (I am not saying that this is what religious believe, but it does say so in, for example, the bible):

    Gen. 1:26-28; Psalm 8:4-8
    Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    I can assure you, that most of the worlds soybean production (which what I was speaking of) is not.

    The rainforest debate;
    According to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) secretariat, the overwhelming direct cause of deforestation is agriculture. Subsistence farming is responsible for 48% of deforestation; commercial agriculture is responsible for 32% of deforestation; logging is responsible for 14% of deforestation and fuel wood removals make up 5% of deforestation ~ Source

    The keyword is AGRICULTURE, which is mostly soybean and corn in these areas.

    The Global Warming;
    Haha what? Does global warming increase the amount of carbondioxide in the atmosphere? When the rainforest is deforested large amounts of carbondioxide which has been stored inside these trees are released into the atmosphere.
    Carbondioxide is a greenhouse gas and when it increases in the atmosphere (the concentration, or namely the amount of substance (mole)) it creates a layer too thick to let some of the reflected sunlight to return into space - the Green House effect, which in turn makes the earth warmer. Global Warming.

    [​IMG]

    Unless, you're saying that the greenhouse effect is a lie?

    I see you made some mockery of cows' farting, uh huh.
    When a cow farts, it emits methane - another greenhouse gas, and FAO reports that livestock and cattle stands for at least 18% of the Greenhouse gas emissions - Source

    Taxes are not limitation of freedom, but that is another debate - so let's not take it here. But I am willing to discuss it elsewhere. I do after all live in one of the countries with the highest tax burden in the world, namely Sweden - and I am as free as anyone else.

    Volcano Carbondioxide eruption emit less than 1% of the human emission of carbondioxide. A volcano eruption alone lets out - what? Somewhere ranging between 8000 and 30000 tons (metric system) of Carbondioxide. A study of 2003 conducted by USGS showed that volcanoes all together emit 200 million tons of carbondioxide each year. Seems like a lot? Well think again, because the burning of fossil fuels alone emits around 26.8 BILLION tons of Carbondioxide annually. Now add deforesting on the top of that.

    You seem to justify the consumtion of meat because we are superior to them, because we can, because of natural selections. "It is natural, the wolf eats the sheep, so why can't we eat the cow?". Because we are able, unlike the wolf, both consciously and actually physiologically able to choose another diet, which the wolf isn't. The wolf doesn't know about morals.

    We do NOT eat meat for survival.

    So you think we should remove hospitals, make doctors unemployed - because according to nature we shouldn't treat the sick and ill.

    Because that's reality, you were weak - you got sick - you die.
    "It's sad, but reality".

    "It's natural selection".
    Also
    Big Nope, virus aren't even defined as life in general.
    The Virus doesn't even survive, all it does ever "tries" to do in it life is to reproduce, not "survive".

    So we should base our thinking of how other animals think, of how other animals act - we should base our actions of virus'?
     
  3. Gilles

    Gilles

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    I thought I'd just point a few things out.

    "I can assure you" should not be used when making an argument. Links to a source are what should be provided, not your assurance that the point is factual.
    Another example like this is "Big Nope, virus aren't even defined as life in general." That doesn't prove anything. Provide evidence.

    Citing a large research paper is good, but you need to cite where we can find information pertaining to what you are talking about. I don't have time to read a 500 page paper.

    Overall there is a real lack of evidence given. Maestros, your entire post has no sources. No offense, but I'm not going to take internet users at their word. Things like "Plain talk, when the planet heats, the CO2 increases. But it increases because the planet is already heated.
    CO2 has nothing to do with heating the planet." are useless. I have no idea if that's true. Again, "plain talk" doesn't support your argument, so ditch it.

    Thus far, no one has conviced me of anything. I see ManYouAreEvils point, and I'm definitely interested to know how our meat consumption is impacting the world, but I need short concise arguments to convince me of anything, not gigantic walls of post and massive research documents.
     
  4. ManYouAreEvil

    ManYouAreEvil

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    I absolutely agree and will of course provide sources for all my statements;

    Virus':
    They do resemble something of life, as they do possess genes and evolve by natural selection. But they do not have cellular structure, which is often seen as the basic unit of life. Neither can they reproduce without the prescence of another animals' cell to take over. ~ A short article about Viruses and how they're basicly viewed, or this - a blog about microbiology written by a proffessor in microbiology at the university of Columbia Medical Center.

    Now onto the real discussions;
    The livestock sector is actually increasing the greenhouse effect [Wizard Off-Hand: Source]

    The agriculture itself also contributes to the greenhouse effect (14% according to greenpeace)

    Regarding the larger papers I refered to, I'm sorry I didn't specify.
    For the FAO study see; Part IV; 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 3.4 and Part VIII; 7.1, 7.2

    for the UNFCCC study (causes of deforestation);
    See III; 3.1.9

    I didn't link to source about the volcanoes either, but here they are


    I'm not sure if I forgot anything, but if you ask I'll surely name my sources!




    Also; a cute article about a girl who becomes a vegetarian.

    And GreenPeace on the Vegetarian/Enviromental-aspect:
    http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/multimedia/goodies/green-guide/green-lifestyle/go-vegetarian/
     
  5. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    I will definitely not become a vegetarian. I am always enthusiastic about trying new flavours of food and there are many more meats left that I have not tried, which doesn't rule out vegetarianism, but sure makes it unattractive to me.

    The arguments for vegetarianism, both moral and conservationist make sense, but do not really apply to the animals we eat.

    It is an incredibly human trait to assign human emotions and thought processes to objects that don't have them. A good number of my friends are vegetarians for this very reason - they feel that killing animals and eating them is equivalent to the murder of a human being. Most commonly eaten animals are several levels of magnitude lower in intelligence than humans and do not feel the emotions that make us intelligent. The conditions that we keep some of them in are unsanitary and absolutely horrible and should be changed, but that won't stop me from eating meat altogether. Rather, I seek out good, clean meat sources and support them to take away some profits from the industrial agricultural farms.

    The point made earlier about the conservation of the sun's energy is a sound argument if we look at sunlight as a finite resource which, like all things that exist, is of course true. The sheer scale of the sunlight we receive and the time it will take for it to be scarce make it effectively unlimited. The earth's current food production with the sunlight we get is more than capable of sustaining the global population, but is not being distributed properly. Food scarcity is a human problem, not a natural one.

    As far as being squeamish about the production of meat and still eating it, that makes no one a hypocrite. We constantly enjoy the product of other people's work doing jobs that we would rather not, such as garbage pickup, but that does not make us hypocrites for using the waste disposal system.

    On a side note, I think Maestros has the record for the longest post in Medivh's Tower.
     
  6. Linaze

    Linaze

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    I also happen to live in Sweden (southern Sweden, more exactly) and couldn't disagree any more with you on this point. How can I be free when the state takes my money with threat of violence?
     
  7. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    When you live in a society and expect to make use of that society's resources, where do you think the money comes from? This always entertains me about libertarians; they'd love to not have to pay taxes, but they still want all the systems that those taxes pay for.

    And sure, you aren't totally free. However, absolute freedom gives you places like Somalia, and personally that's not where I'd like to live. Don't know about you.

    --

    Personally, I ate vegetarian for a year as an experiment a few years back and found it quite enlightening. At the end of the year I went back to eating some meat, but I found I ate a lot less, not because of any moral qualms (I realize the moral argument doesn't appeal to many people, and quite honestly it doesn't hugely appeal to me either), but simply because I noticed I was eating meat in a lot of cases for no other reason than because it was there; I never thought about what it actually contributed to. I think a lot of people would do well to cut down their meat consumption and could probably do it without meaningfully affecting their enjoyment of food, but then again people don't like change no matter how much sense it makes.
     
  8. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    Absolutely. Cutting down on meat consumption in general is widely recognized to be healthy (except by Atkins dietitians, but they're crazy), and I have definitely done the same. Meat is expensive, and depending on the animal, typically incredibly fatty.
     
  9. Arcisal

    Arcisal

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    I'm Chinese. We eat every part of the pig except the meat. Most of the time anyways.

    And here in Malaysia, you've got 6 types of curry to go with your rice and 2000 other types of meats to go with your naan, of which there are 20000 different variations.
     
  10. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    I think the health benefits of vegetarianism overweigh both the enviroment and moral arguments. The best order to sort them in in my opinion:
    Health benefits > Enviromental damage > Economically > Moral justification > Taste

    Will still eat meat in the christmas holiday as it's a special occasion though.
     
  11. ManYouAreEvil

    ManYouAreEvil

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    Uh huh, this doesn't, however, belong to the discussion.
     
  12. Linaze

    Linaze

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    Huh? I only make use of society's resources because it's the only reasonable way to get by in a society with high taxes, few people of today could afford private health care, school and such where I live (because they're already paying for it through taxes), and as such they have to send their children to the state's public shools and use public health care etc.

    If taxes were lowered, workers would get a higher salary and could afford to pay for themselves, and therefore they wouldn't need to depend on society babysitting them.

    There are surely idiots who call themselves libertarians and want to both eat the cake and keep it, but aren't there idiots of all ideologies? As a side note, I never have called myself a libertarian. I prefer the American "paleo-conservative", if anything.

    Off-topic comment over.
     
  13. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    Slightly more on topic:

    I have foregone most fish because the oceans are being rapidly depleted. While seafood is nutritionally beneficial and delicious, it is very difficult to find some that is not exploiting the ocean.

    Knowing where food comes from is a huge influence in my diet.
     
  14. ManYouAreEvil

    ManYouAreEvil

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    I'm glad to hear, it's a very strange phenomenon.
    Most pseudo-vegetarians (Demi-vegetarians) mostly choose to eat no meat except fish or sometimes chicken. I've always been curious on why and have never managed to get a real answer on it.
     
  15. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    I think those are the vegetarians who simply don't like the taste or texture of the more mammalian meat, ie. mildly picky eaters.
     
  16. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Fish contains alot of D-vitamins so that's probably a good reason to eat fish. The only other good option is through production in the skin from sunlight, which might be scarce in some places.
     
  17. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    There are vegetarian supplements though.
     
  18. HappyTauren

    HappyTauren

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    I really wish I could eat more healthy food, but it is way too expensive here. Average salary here is claimed to be around 42.000 dinars (while it is really more like 25.000) and you need around 70.000 dinars to pay for food/month for a family of three. And this is only the cheapest food available, so it is impossible for me to eat healthy, though I'd really like to.

    That being said, I really like meat, though I do not eat a lot of it. I usually eat it when I am not home, so I need something to fill me up quickly. I would have no ethical problems regarding the whole animal killing issue, if it were not for the way they keep them enslaved and tortured. Also, since crop farming also kills many animals, it does make a point rather moot. I also think 'greenhouse gasses issues' are a load of bullshit, as well, there are many thesis that disprove 'global warming due to cows farting' theories, but that's not the point here. There are too many political reasons behind 'global warming' that I don't believe much of it.

    On the other hand, someone mentioned the religious aspect of this question, and as an Orthodox Christian, I can say that, following our teachings, Bible PERMITS the use of meat as food, except on fasting days, and except to monks (who are, after all, not allowed many other things, as well), but people should act respectfully towards their food. Don't forget gluttony is a deadly sin in Christianity! That is, eat only as much as you need.

    As for health benefits, it does depend on blood type, but it is also true that in MOST cases, veggies win. As I said many times, most of corporate food is highly toxic, so a debate whether Monsanto's beef or corn wins here is pointless, since they're both hurtful in their own ways (meat messes up hormones and leads to premature puberty and other hormonal disorders, toxic pesticides in plants lead to all sorts of terrible diseases with severe buildup), but if you take clean veggies and clean meat, veggies still win, not to mention that toxic meat often has the same issues as the food those animals eat, and since cattle food is created to make cattle huge and not healthy, it's even worse. So basically, meat found in food chains has tons of hormones, additives, usually some toxins from vaccines, weird genetic material, pesticides from the food the cattle eats (if it eats plants), etc. When talking about food quality, what's really the question is whether you are talking about really processed food or that pig you found on a distant farm, that ate clover and lived rather naturally.

    I believe that it is impossible for a human being to survive and be completely healthy with a meat-based diet. The only exception here could be people who dominantly or only eat fish (Eskimos?), but relying on a pork-based diet is going to end up pretty bad, so it's important to say what you're thinking about when you say 'meat'. There are probably other types of 'animals' a person can eat and be healthy (with no plant-based diet) but those things are few and far in between, and in general, when you say meat, you'll mostly mean chicken and pork, since that's what's mostly out there, and unfortunately, there's a lot of processed crap out there as well that just makes those problems with meat worse (not to say processing also messes up plants, but it is still not as bad).

    Plants will always win, no matter the circumstances. However, I still think that we should boycott meat-producing corporations as much as possible and allow smaller firms to blossom, if they have a different stance towards animals. Chicken from our villages is far tastier (and healthier) than any shit you can buy from the store.

    On a side note, I know a monk who has not eaten meat since his 12th birthday (he's now 54) and he's incredibly healthy and vital! I would eat less meat (or no meat at all), but my mother already works hard enough and cooks for the whole family, I don't want to bother her so I will wait until I am 100% in charge of what I eat.
     
  19. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    @HT: I hate to see people disapprove of global warning, as it's pretty much a fact now and it's extremely well documented. Everyone should do their best to one own's ability to reduce the increasing effect. Because if we don't we risk losing alot, to sum up a list per degree (celsius):
    1* degree: We risk losing great coral reefs as they are sensitive to temperature
    2* degrees: 1/4 of animal life might go under, as they cannot adapt fast enough
    3* degrees: 2/3 of animal life...
    It goes on.

    It's rather hard to decide what you eat at home when you're not the one preparing and purchasing the food. It get's simpler when you move out.
     
  20. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    The Inuit (word of warning: don't say eskimo. It is a racist term.) are entirely healthy on a diet that is nearly entirely meat.

    Their primary sources of meat are from caribou and seal (harp and ringed seal are the most hunted).

    The seals and whales are what allow the Inuit to survive. It is only possible to metabolize the huge amount of proteins from a meat exclusive diet with large amounts of fat, and by eating the edible organ meats for bonus nutrition.