Warcraft Royale B.33

[The Panda]

Guess you beat me too it, but im still creating my version of a royale. Add some screenshots and some more information in description would help out a little bit.

 

[Nudl9]

I'll add more screenshots from playtests very soon.

 

[deepstrasz]

That description is well uninviting.

1. A bit too random I guess especially concerning hero balance.
2. Maybe you could make the danger zone more representative somehow; the border at least.
3. The map edges are kind of useless when the zone shrinks and you can't really access it all in the early game because there are many strong creatures there too. I guess you gotta make a run to the roosts with a strong unit.
   
4. Did you make the terrain too?
5. The neutral buildings are not random?

Overall, well used Warcraft III resources; creative.

Approved.

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[Nudl9]

I'll improve descriptions.
I'm a bit curious why you came to the conclusion that the balance is random?
All heroes share some usefullness in the earlier or later parts of the game.
Every single unit and item is available in the game, which allows for enough counterplay.
It's not like i even changed much from normal ladder, which is fairly balanced.

 

[deepstrasz]

I'm a bit curious why you came to the conclusion that the balance is random?

I'm mostly referring to hero vs hero on this one. For instance Priestess of the Moon vs Blademaster.
Still have to answer to:

Did you make the terrain too?

 

[Nudl9]

I'm mostly referring to hero vs hero on this one. For instance Priestess of the Moon vs Blademaster.
Still have to answer to:

Ah i see, well think of it like this. You're not supposed to win that 1v1 fight. The idea of being able to "outplay" is an idealized concept thats impossible to realize in any asymmetric game. Since it's a bad matchup so you want to dodge it as much as possible and let other better equipped heroes deal with him, such as Demon Hunter. However if he keeps bullying you, you can level up scout so that you have the vision to avoid him, a spell that also has true sight btw or you can buy sorcs to slow him or invis yourself. You can also investing in armor through ring of protection or priests inner fire ability, so crit. doesn't deal ridicolous damage. Think of it like a game of rock paper scissor.

Yes i made the terrain.

The map edges are kind of useless when the zone shrinks and you can't really access it all in the early game because there are many strong creatures there too. I guess you gotta make a run to the roosts with a strong unit.

You're not supposed to be able to purchase strong creatures such as dragons early, theres a reason they're gated behind strong creeps. The circle basicly sets the premise for what you can and can't buy on the map and every game's different. The idea is that you have to deal with the cards you're dealt with.

 

[deepstrasz]

You can also investing in armor through ring of protection or priests inner fire ability, so crit. doesn't deal ridicolous damage. Think of it like a game of rock paper scissor.

I know most of those but I'm just saying, maybe someone follows your wisp and gets blademaster and you priestess. Even if you escape, you'll lose precious time.

Hmm, would you randomize the neutral buildings a bit? That would create more flavour for the game. Say, not always the frost wyrm roost in the northeast but maybe it can be instead of the roost in the southwest and so on.

 

[Perfeks]

I kind of agree with deepstrasz on the hero balancing issue. You can't just put melee heroes and think it is balanced. Even in melee, some heroes aren't suitable as a first hero and act more as a support. You'd probably have to boost some heroes (compared to melee), especially all heroes that are unit-dependent (auras, heals...), because most of the time you have way less units than in melee. I understand that you can somehow counterplay, but some players will have a way harder game than others. I like to have some randomness and "deal with what you have", but it seems that the random hero selection has too much influence.

Furthermore, you are given the choice to choose your race. I think it's kind of pointless, since the only true decision would be to just compute your probabilities of getting a good hero in the category. I would rather classify the different heroes in categories like :

• "assassin" (strong 1v1 offensive capabilities, wins by picking off the right opponents)
• "escapist" (invisibility, movespeed, ranged+slow..., wins by avoiding fights and ultimately engaging harmed enemies)
• "survivor" (so tanky that most people won't want to waste time to 1v1 him, and he might even win in the long term, but he has no direct impact on the game as he has very few offensive capabilities, wins by just trying to hold the center)
• ...

This way, people wouldn't get frustrated and can choose a hero to suit their playstyle. Because I don't think people actually care to just be "human" or "orc". But again, to reach balance, you'd really have to change some stats and maybe change some spells.

As for the shops, I think you shouldn't randomize them, because it looks like knowing where is what is key to success in this game. Randomizing them would just turn the game to more luck by just finding what you need by chance. But I agree that you should do something about the creeps. Red creeps in the borders are useless. You should even make them from easy to hard from border to center. That would make people go gradually towards the center without even needing the zone and that would prevent players to bunker the center from the beginning. By the way, I know the circle is not supposed to shrink exactly to the center, but it will inevitably roughly tend to.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

played once, this is the pinnacle of wc3 modding and paragon we creation 5/5 vote for dc

Priestess of the Moon vs Blademaster

bm gun' run after i slap sum boots on dat potm aaass

 

[deepstrasz]

bm gun' run after i slap sum boots on dat potm aaass

Buh dat taigah!

played once, this is the pinnacle of wc3 modding and paragon we creation 5/5 vote for dc

I was me amazed myself too.

 

[Nudl9]

Hmm, would you randomize the neutral buildings a bit? That would create more flavour for the game. Say, not always the frost wyrm roost in the northeast but maybe it can be instead of the roost in the southwest and so on.

People have trouble finding the right things and getting familiar with the layout, do you think this would help in that regard?
Randomness will just ruins the competitive aspect of the game.

Furthermore, you are given the choice to choose your race. I think it's kind of pointless, since the only true decision would be to just compute your probabilities of getting a good hero in the category.

Thats kind of the whole point.
Lets say you want to play Demon Hunter for some reason, then you can say goodbye to some starting gold for a better probability.
Or if you really hate playing pit lord, you can just pick a random ranged hero.
The less random the more expensive it will be basicly.

 

[deepstrasz]

People have trouble finding the right things and getting familiar with the layout, do you think this would help in that regard?
Randomness will just ruins the competitive aspect of the game.

Well, a dragon is still a dragon. I mean I'm not saying you should make a building either appear as a shop or a roost but saying that you could make a set of random buildings (the ? marked ones in the editor) from dragon roosts, shops, tier 1 units barracks etc. It was just an idea. I mean you could explore, experiment more with game modes.

I agree with Perfeks that the hero choice is awkward. You could make a game mode where you are able to choose whatever hero you want (+/-copies for other players).

 

[Nudl9]

Having forced random makes the game a lot better though. What do you think would happen if i let players pick exactly the hero they want? Players would never try new things and would pick the same hero or the hero that they think is the most broken. Probably leaning towards the less micro intensive heroes such as BM. The meta would get stale really fast. So randoming keeps the game fresh because players are forced to adapt. Personally i really hate true randomness, so for purely strategical reasons i added the feature to random from certain hero pools.

About "class" like hero pools, a hero pool like "assassin" could mean a lot don't you think? Most heroes with the right combination of items or units can fit this description.
I'd rather not impose players with ideas of how to play their hero and let them figure it out themselves. This is going to be a poor example, but let's say you want to random "assassin" and you get Lich and then you don't understand why he fits the role. You're going to get mad because you got him and you don't think he fits into that role. Thats why i only have hero pools with tags that are considered concice. For example, theres no doubt about what would be considered a "ranged" hero.

 

[deepstrasz]

Having forced random makes the game a lot better though. What do you think would happen if i let players pick exactly the hero they want? Players would never try new things and would pick the same hero or the hero that they think is the most broken

Yeah but you could make game modes: choose hero, random hero etc. Problem is that even so, the chance of playing a hero would be thin or you might get to play one hero more than others if even at all. But I guess that's why you made it group random, race/faction based to increase the chance. So, I agree.

 

[Nudl9]

This is personal belief, but i really dislike the idea of players handling how they want to experience "products". I'd rather just make a complete package that satisfies their whims. It's sort of like, if you've had beef, pineapple and barbeque sauce on a pizza. Now you might not like pineapple, but it's part of that "package" and synergises really well with the other ingredients. So by refusing to have pineapple on that pizza you're losing out on the experience the chef wants you to have. Simply because you're refusing to try new things. To relate this back to my map, letting players choose AP or AR gamemode would not be healthy for the gameplay and overall i haven't had any complaints about AR being the only mode. Which probably means that it just works so well that people don't pay attention to it.

 

[deepstrasz]

To relate this back to my map, letting players choose AP or AR gamemode would not be healthy for the gameplay and overall i haven't had any complaints about AR being the only mode. Which probably means that it just works so well that people don't pay attention to it.

How many people you say plyted your map? You've just released it. I doubt you actually have a statistic.

It's sort of like, if you've had beef, pineapple and barbeque sauce on a pizza.

But if you're allergic to pineapples, you know what that means, you don't eat at all or try to take it out of the pizza because you can't choose not to have it since it comes with the whole package

EDIT: also reading your description again, PUBG is just a Battle Royale clone/rip-off.

 

[Nudl9]

I playtest it every day with multiple people and my friends.
People are usually very honest when playing maps in the presence of the creator.
So i do get all the feedback, good or bad.
People can get rude sometimes even.

PUBG is just more well known than Battle Royale, it's just more relateable.
Besides Royale is already in the title, i just want people to get the gist of it.

 

[pick-a-chew]

I played this once with you earlier, and found it to be quite fun.

Obviously it bugged out with the leaver and i never saw the end of the game, but is it round based?

My other thoughts:

• I see in the screenshots there's a visual effect for the circle, i couldn't see any effect but i'm guessing it's a 1.30.1 issue.
• The circle shrinks on a long timer, have you considered having it shrink very slowly every second?
• Feels a bit cheesy because some heroes are quite fragile, you can burst them down and eliminate them very quickly (single target spells and command flying units). Felt a bit anti-climatic.
• Game is more fun at the start, and becomes less fun as you have 1 or 2 armies to move around.
• Would be better if heroes had a bit more emphasis in the game (in terms of how powerful and durable they are) whilst units are less.
• A mode where people you kill are revived for your killer's team. I won in the game so didn't get to experience the "AFK and watch" part, but can't imagine it is fun! Just a wild idea.

Keep up the good work!

 

[Nudl9]

I changed a lot of the main mechanics in v0.16, there are things i simply can't test alone and ENT hosting has been down the whole weekend so i haven't been able to proofcheck things.
I will smooth out errors in the following days.

• -Leavers are kind of bugged atm, i will get on it as soon as possible.

• -The circle does have visual effects, as seen on screenshot. Though the circle might less visible when it's really large. It's a bit of a balance problem between looking good/lagg from SFX.

• -There are indeed very fragile heroes. Lich comes to mind. While fragile heroes (typically INT) might suffer lategame, they usually compensate by great earlygame. For example Far Seer has one of the best creep camp clear speeds, while Lich for example can really fuck up peoples farm effiency by using Frost Nova on weak targets. Also if you've played more experienced players, people usually carry anti-burst mitigation. Invulnerability pots, anti-magic shield, invisibility all go a long way. If not items, then you can buy units like sorcs, banshees or use priests inner fire which gives massive armor boost.

• -I'm not sure what or when you mean the game becomes less fun? The game basicly transitions from PvE to PvP over the state of the game, which means more interactions and overall fun. If you're not really a competitive person and prefer to avoid conflict though i can fully understand.

• -I don't think you understand the consequence of making this game hero focused. Having units be a bigger focus is better, because it adds more skill and depth. What i think is a major point is that you also have tangible resources you can destroy. What would happen if this was a true hero arena and you lost a fight? Everyone would just go back and regen without any major losses. Games that don't punish bad plays just aren't fun in my opinion. If all you have to do is control one hero then it becomes too easy.

• -If you die you spawn as a ghost that can possess a unit. So you can to some degree interact and have an impact when dead. It's somewhat restrictive, since i don't want good players to feel punished after having played really well or just for upsetting several players.

 

[pick-a-chew]

The number of special effects could be related to size, e.g. 360 (per 1 degree) when at its biggest and scaling down to 36 (per 10 degrees) when tiny. Effects should only lag people when numerous are on screen.

I played Lich that game which is probably why i felt fragile.

My comment about the late game being less fun is just due to you having a huge army that marauds over any creep camps. And because its an army it takes longer to move across the map, especially if you have 2 control groups worth of units and summons. It slows it down is all, nothing major, the point i was probably getting at is if armies are smaller the end game might feel more active. It could have felt this way as it was a duo game, perhaps if you're solo then taking bigger camps is a challenge with a full group.

That's my point, the game is already hero focused, if your hero dies your army is also out. Outside of invulnerability pots or other mitigation effects, it's likely people will just order 12+ units to attack your hero. Flying units in particular are quite problematic, in a showdown they can wear a hero down quite quickly. This was at least my experience, I engaged a player who entangled me, he sent 3 Wyverns to attack me, I lost about ~30% of my health in 2 or 3 seconds, I popped my invulnerability pot, and i returned in kind by ignoring his army and bursting down his hero. To me that had much less depth or strategy than the early engagements where battles were more like skirmishes, where you attacked units as they were usually already damaged.

I'll have to try out the ghost experience next time

 

[Nudl9]

That sounds much like my experience with Lich too.
I can't really remember if i've seen him make it to the end, so he might be one of the low tiers currently.
I don't want to buff heroes too early before feeling all of them out.
That does sound like a fair experience, so i'll take it into consideration.

 

[Nudl9]

Just some heads up.
Because of school, work and such i might discontinue working on this map.
There might be an update before December or once exams finish, but i won't promise anything.
Version v0.17 or v0.18 will be the last update.

Spoiler

Some of the new planned changes are:

• New Hero: Wing Commander
  • A flying agility hero, aligned with the undead faction.

• Improved circle functionality
  • Circle looks more dense when wide, less dense when small, generally smoother looking
    
  • Instead of pings, the circle is made of minimap icons
  • The circle shrinks in a more understandable way

• Hero Reworks:
  • Paladin:
    • Holy Light: Deals aoe damage now, at the cost of reduced healing. Self-targetting is possible now, but at the cost of coldown increase. Should improve clearspeed earlygame, which is his biggest problem.
      
  • Death Knight:
    • Death Pact > Tombstone: A ward that produces corpses and summons skeletons from them. At level 1, corpses are ghouls, level 2 crypt fiends, level 3 abominations. This ability is not very powerfull by itself, but with a Necromaner or item it's very good for clearspeed. This hopefully changes how DK is played every single game, where Death Pact and Ultimate is skipped frequently.
  • Lich:
    • Dark Ritual: Will get reworked so that he may sustain mana and hp as well.
  • Priestess of the Moon:
    • Scout: Better used in duos, so it will be changed to work better in solo.
    • She struggles a lot as a C-tier hero, so a rework is neccessary.
  • Ancient of Winter (Treant hero):
    • New Ultimate: After a small delay, all units in target area are freezed into an iceblock, making them invulnerable and unable to do anything.
  • Tinker:
    • Passive > Repair Cogs: Replacing the passive, Tinker gains the ability to repair mechanical units over time. An exclusive benefit over other heroes, since there are no worker units currently in the game. This works with his summon ability, his ultimate form, structures and mechanical units.
  • Naga Sea Witch:
    • Ultimate: Is no longer a channeling ability, but it's effectiveness has been reduced slightly. People skip this ability, so this is a welcoming change.
  • Reworked abilities are marked as "Ability Title [Reworked]" to differentiate from standard abilities.

• Item Enchants
  • Transform items into enchanted version at the cost of wood.

Similiar to corrupted items, you place your items in a building to enchant them.They have smaller stat disposition in comparison to corrupted items, but grants abilities instead. Enchanting gloves of attack for example gives feedback and claws of attack will give critical strike. You can also enchant corrupted items, transforming them into legendary items. Enchanting is added as a way to balance out excess lumber drop. Similiar to how corrupting items keeps excess food limit in balance, enchanting keeps lumber in balance. This also marks a change in army focus into hero focus, if that is your thing. Giving more flexibility to players that get unwanted drops. For example if you don't get any gold drops to build your army, you can instead spend lumber and food on items for your hero, becoming overall more hero focused.

• Rebalance
  • Shops have cheap purchase regen items aswell as more expensive regens items (Healing salve vs health potion)
  • Item are spread more evenly across the map, orb items are available at the center now
  • T2 units have stock delay of 330, T3 units have stock delay of 660, Dragons have stock delay of 990
  • Creep camp units have stock delay based on Tier, and you can buy more creep camp units in general.
  • Item shops sell better "permanent items" now up to Tier 5. Currently only T1-3 items were available

 

[Nudl9]

Everything above have been more or less resolved.
The next update won't be before end of december since i have school to worry about.

These are the planned changes, just for reference:

Spoiler

Gameplay Changes

New Gamemode:
-In the new version i will test a new gamemode. Where the game doesn't end when your hero dies. Instead it's about having the the last standing unit instead of hero. So that armies don't consist of mass casters who can buff your hero, but are generally more well rounded. Ghosts gain the ability to come back.

Gameplay
-Moon Wells placed around the map to help with healing. Enforces higher map control.
-Add more focus on T1 units earlygame (make lumber more difficult to get earlygame).

Item Shops:
-Each faction shops have their respective tower items.
-Tiny Pig Farm, produces pigs..

Unit Shops:
-Sky Barge: Shroud of darkness: Conceals nearby friendly air units with invisibility.
-Gargoyle Building: Sells gargoyles and sky barge units.
-Shrinking takes 30 seconds instead of 20.
-T1 units in stock up to 5.
-T1 secondary units stock up to 4.
-Longer refresh rate on all raxes, so people have to buy armies from different rax. Forcing better map control and importance of scouting.

Enviroment:
-Make the map more walkable in general so that flying, teleportation and stuff like that don't reap massive benefits.
-Add more enviromental stones, shrubs to make things prettier.
-Add higher visual variance in areas so that they become more distinct and easier to remember.
-Add night elf fishing village in Ashenvale region.
-More ruins in sunken ruins.
-More outland in outland region, with some black citadel elements or structures.
-Enviromental effects for regions: Rain, wind, snow, etc
-Add extra cliff and terrain types if possible? Depends if any of the editors work.

Balance:
-Nerf naga myrmidons: Naga nets only work on grounded units.
-Buff human cannon towers.
-Buff siege units or give incentive to buy them: buildings in focus
-Buff abominations: Explodes on death?
-Add stock coldown on flying obsidian destroyers instead of the statue as a whole.
-Reduce hero debuffs from spells such as: slow, cripple.
-Reduce fel orc warlock stun slightly and/or increase cost.
-Add incentive to kill enemy heroes:
Pros: Army stacking is a problem because players who avoid confrontation and farm levels and resources eventually win.
Cons: Hero killers already scale well and scale even better with incentives, while army focus heroes lose units as resources per kill.
Ideas:
-Killing player gains 25% of resources
-Killing enemy hero gives xp from whole enemy unit group.
-Static bonus gold for kills: 100 gold

Quality of Life:
-Command that gives recommendations based on hero.
-Reduce aquis. range on long range units, specifically siege so they don't aggro random camps.
-Reduce fel orc warlock stun slightly and/or increase cost.
-Item Caches can no longer drop Artifacts (T4 items/Level 10 creep drop). Randomness was too strong someone could get.
-Item supply drops either drop more items+lower tier or less items+higher tier. To balance out the randomness.

Bugfixes:
-Fix Ghost possessing Crystal Shops

Hero Changes:

Paladin:
-Improve aura effect: 2 base armor at lvl 1, instead of 1.5.
Revive: Works with enemy units as well.

Archmage:
-Increased str per level gain for less squishy endgame
-Revert change(s) from 1.30: Aura strong again.

Mountain King:
-Ultimate: 30 second duration, lower CD

Bloodmage:
-Remove Flamestrikes long cast animation
-Improve Banish functionality: The goal is to help make banish able to save ally units
Ideas:
-Remove movement speed reduction on allies
-Make banish permanent until measures are taken: Enemy has to move closer/away to BM to remove it.
-Banish "Moonwell": Places a green orb, which units can right-click or right-click with to banish units, set amount of charges.

Far Seer:
-Far Sight: Reveals an area permanently, may place 1/2/3 far sights. Replaces the oldest far sight when used.
-Earthquake:
Ideas:
-Decreased effectiveness by 33%channeling
-Global cast range.

Battlemage Shrink:
-Shrink: High initial duration, less scaling duration

Tauren Chieftan:
-Reincarnation requires a certain nerf.
Ideas:
-Add manacost.
-Respawn with less health
-Respawn with full health, but no mana

Crypt Lord:
-Add burrow
-Improve effective range of spikes.

Demon Hunter
-Ultimate: 30 second duration, lower CD

POTM:
-Owl: Add level scaling incentives:
-Level 3: Passively adds shadowsight to all units passed.

Tinker:
-Make passive more of a "build enabling" skill:
Level 1: Rockets no longer require channeling.
Level 2: Robots can now repair mechanical units.
Level 3: Robots make construct human buildings: Farm, Tower
-Ultimate: Reduce overall strength to compensate for new strong passive abilities that indirectly buff ultimate.

Lich:
-Replace Dark Ritual with:
Reassemble: Consumes corpses in area to regain mana and life. This adds incentive to harass a lot earlygame and keep spamming nova.

Beastmaster:
-Call of the Wild: Replaces Bear or Quillbeast, summons a variable unit based on region: Bear(Center)/Tiger(TL)/Wolf(TR)/Puma(BR)/Serpent(BL)

New Hero - Dark Stalker (Based on Akama):
Innate Ability: Permanent Invisibility (Compensated by -1 starting armor)
1# Magic Break: Takes a 5/10/15% of max hp from target unit to deal dmg nearby units. Summoned units take double damage. In other words summoned units are the best target for this spell.
2# Spirit Wyverns: Summons 2 spirit wyverns. Gains following abilities from levelling:
Level 1: N/A
Level 2: AOE heal on death. (Synergy with Magic Break)
Level 3: Spirit Link (Passive): Spreads out damage evenly
3# Plunder: Steals 1 item from target hero starting with item slot 1 to 6. Steals 1 random item with 3 item slot range at level 2. Steals any 1 random item at level 3.
U# Ultimate: Clone Army: Makes clones of all units in target area.

 

[Frotty]

I honestly don't understand why you advertise this as pubg/fortnite in your lobbies, cause it's not.
To be pubg, you would need equip lying around and the entire building aspect of fortnite is missing.
So the "battle royale" part remains, which imho isn't very captivating.

All rounds I played, just ended in a typical snowballed late. If you didn't build up an army, you can literally do nothing mid-late.
And if you have a big army, unless people team up against you, you will pretty much win. Reminds me of agar.io without the ability to run away.

Again, pubg "solves" this by having free equip everywhere, and thus the chance to gear up even in late, which isn't possible here.
Fortnite mitigates this with building and lots of movement.
How does this map? Seemingly not at all.

The region shrinking also felt totally unfair - at first it shrinks next to nothing, but mid-late it suddenly shrunk so much that I almost died just from being close to the border at that time.
In the end it boils down to melee macro/micro I guess, which I don't really enjoy. So for me it's an average to below average experience.
My major concern is this mis-marketing. I really see no comparison to fortnite/pubg in this map, except it#s "BR" which we called FFA LMS (last man standing) back in the day.
I really expected a single-hero experience. Otherwise probably good for ppl who enjoy micro arenas.

 

[Chaosy]

Honestly, this seems like a pretty fun map.

However, I would like to see better terrain and potentially AI to fill up spots. Because even a bad AI is better than a half full lobby.

 

[Nudl9]

I'll adress a few points here.

@Frotty

-The reason i advertise it as a PUBG/Fortnite clone is that it gets the concept across more easily. Everyone knows what these two games are all about. These brands have far more recognition then say Battle Royale or Hunger Games. So if i use PUBG as an example, the demographics are more likely to overlap because PUBG players and Warcraft players are usually 18 to 30 year old players. So if i tell people that it's a game of Warcraft with PUBG elements i get my message across in a matter of seconds. I have this game development philosophy where i always try to use familiar concepts, which means theres less explaining need to be done. Point in case, i rarely have to explain to new players what this game is all about. From watching multiple replays i've found that players usually have an intuitive grasp of how to play after only one game.

-You mention snowballing, but let me ask you this. If there's a player that's way better then everyone else, why shouldn't that player snowball? Think of it like this way, nearly all games that have resource management are snowball games. Why you might ask? well because with less resources, the less options you have. That's just the nature of these games and you might think this is dumb from a balance perspective, but if you do you've misunderstood why these games are fun to begin with. Good players get rewarded and bad players get punished. Getting good at snowball games are why it's fun to play them. It's all about the journey of becoming a better player and thats where the fun lies. You'll see lots of games have these mechanics: chess, dota, super smash bros. melee and yes even pubg. Yes even pubg snowballs! If you don't get good gear early in the game, you're honestly just fucked because it sets the premise for the rest of the game, where you get outgeared by players with more resources. Which means if you don't find gear early in the game, you just lose the game. To make that fact even worse, since gear spawns are random. It's basicly random wether you lose or win. Which is superbad from a competitive standpoint.

If anyone keeps asking for random placement of camps or shops i'll just refer to this ^. Because people don't know what the fuck they're talking about when they ask about randomness for the sake of randomness.

-The shrinking to be fair is a little drastic in v0.2, i've improved it a little over time in v0.25. So that shrinking lasts 30 seconds instead of 25. I feel like players should get caught off guard sometimes though. For example it's an important part of storylines, where players lose all their shit to the circle, but makes a comeback and proceeds to win the game. Getting caught off guard also indirectly adds an importance to carrying teleport scrolls, if the circle will mess you up. But to be fair, you do have a 30 second buffer every time, which is enough as long as the circle isn't in the opposite corner and/orr if you carry a TP scroll, it's basicly impossible to lose things to circle.

-The map really isn't that micro focused really. Most of the time you control units 12-16 food count and even then sloppy micromanagement can go a long way. But how army focused the game is, depends a bit on the playercount, if its a fullhouse game, it's basicly impossible to build up a decent army since every creep camp is contested and resources on the map are limited. In a 24 player game you usually cap at 16 food and in a 12 player game you tend to cap at 24 food. So basicly less players = more army focus, more players = more hero focus. It's a great balance, because the game always works no matter how many players you have. Even 4 player games are fun.


@Chaosy

I've designed the terrain around functionality as a priority. It's supposed to be rather minimalistic to prevent things from grabbing away too much attention from gameplay. Though i'm curious if you had something particular in mind when saying this.

I'm not going to add AI, since it's basicly a waste of development time and honestly it's not even hard to even get a full house game anymore with discord being a thing.

 

[Frotty]

@Nudl9

Being intuitive doesn't require misleading advertising. The only thing i can see similar to those games is the shrinking arena.
The rest of the map is default melee, of course people get the hang of it next to immediately. For me, there are more differences than similarities, but that's just my experience.
I think one should embrace that the only reason this perhaps makes the lobby fill quicker, is due to publicity.

Snowballing exists in triple A games - so do micro transactions, first day dlc, geolocks, etc. It means nothing in terms of quality or enjoyment.
The focus there has been "how to make most money" and not "how to make most fun game" for a long time.
And sure, it is fun for the one person, not for most of the others. And yes, I get that it's the fascination of the BR genre - I just personally don't find it enjoyable.
Giving a player basically a reward for doing good, so other players have even less of a chance to comeback is a no go in my book (e.g. CoD kill spree rewards) and many agree.
There are popular games which do employ an opposite mechanic, e.g. mario kart, where u only get garbage items in 1st place, and best items on last place.
I don#t get why we are discussing this tho, as I was just illustrating my opinion on this. Most mainstream/AAA games imho are quite bad (and employ bad mechanics), so comparisons with that tend to not yield anything useful.

Again, tl:dr: I don't enjoy the BR genre in the first place, so this map isn't for me and it's fine. But even then my expectations when joining differed vastly from what I got when it started.

 

[Nudl9]

It's like you didn't understand my part about using familiar concepts or just plain right ignored my point. I'm not sure how your expectations can be so twisted when the title is literally "Warcraft Royale". Implying it's a Warcraft style map, with Battle Royale mode. I'm sure you've played the warcraft campaign, enough to understand what Warcraft entitles. Like really i don't know a single person except you that have a problem understanding it. Theres nothing wrong with applying similiar titles to explain what the game either. The game plays out exactly like a game of PUBG would in a Warcraft setting, you gather resources (xp, units, items, stats) to become powerfull, while simultaneously denying resources from other players. There's looting, drops and a shrinking circle. Aren't these all things you do in other games too? Do correct me if i'm wrong. Because i'm not sure where your definition lies, but if you have one please do explain.

What does snowballing have anything to do with money making schemes? Snowballing is basicly the result of of any game with resource management. Because as i've said, more resources means you have more options available. If you've tried to play a game that has resource management competitively you would know this. If you're not willing to accept this fact, then you're probably not a competitive person in the first place. Few people really are. Because most people video games are a leisure. So i'm just going to say this, i designed the map competitive play in mind. Had i designed this map with casual players in mind there would be more randomness and a slingshot mechanic to help bad players.

 

[Frotty]

There is nothing you said I don't understand, I don't get why you have that impression or feel the need to patronize me.
You simply present your points very one sided, and I offer my different point of view.

In >90% of the cases, people only feedback in threads when they either got pissed off, or very entertained.
I joined your lobby, the map was completely different from what you advertised it (pubg/fortnite), and I was pissed, thus I wrote the post above.
The main reason for my post is the lobby naming - I added some general feedback about the map while I was at it.
Now you basically insult me for expecting something different, which is very close minded.
I doubt that anyone who i would ask "how would you envision a wc3 pubg/fortnite map" would expect something like your map.
Acting like it's the most obvious choice just seems foolish.

Snowballing is basicly the result of of any game with resource management.

I would say it's more of a burden. And for the exact same reason almost every one of those games employs a mechanic to mitigate snowballing.
I probably wouldn't call any FFA competitive, because FFA incentives teaming and backstabbing, but again that's my opinion.

 

[Nudl9]

It's fair that you might have had a different experience with the game and maybe expected differently, i'm not bothered by that, but to say that it's misleading to say that it's nothing like PUBG or Fortnite is just wrong. "I doubt that anyone who i would ask "how would you envision a wc3 pubg/fortnite map" would expect something like your map." This is also wrong because this is the exact type of comments i got when i initially made the map.

Theres nothing wrong with FFA as a competitive mode, assuming people don't pre-team outside the game. Then finding common grounds to team during the game is completely fine. The only reason why people don't want that though is because it breeds a lot of salt. Especially when trust is broken between players.

 

[pick-a-chew]

Being intuitive doesn't require misleading advertising. The only thing i can see similar to those games is the shrinking arena.

Piggybacking another game's popularity to boost your own project's popularity has always been a successful and widespread tactic. I mean, open your eyes, and remember that 99% of WC3 maps are edited/remakes of old concepts. What makes this case more unusual is that it's adapted (or at least, certainly inspired by) something from outside of WC3, which is perhaps why it has offended you.

 

[Frotty]

Piggybacking another game's popularity to boost your own project's popularity has always been a successful and widespread tactic. I mean, open your eyes, and remember that 99% of WC3 maps are edited/remakes of old concepts.

You're mixing up two different things. I never even criticized the genre of this map nor discussed whether it's copying other designs - just the lobby advertisement.

What makes this case more unusual is that it's adapted (or at least, certainly inspired by) something from outside of WC3, which is perhaps why it has offended you.

I'm not offended, I simply didn't enjoy my experience.

 

[knight26]

It is really addictive! 5 from me!
Keep adding heroes and new things, and and some have suggested, randomize the shops maybe. Not all of them, but a few.

Heck I would not be surprised if this gets a Directors Cut, and also become a THW project. 24 players ingame at most times is surely deserving of something more. Add the fact that the game just released, really nice job Nudl, thanks for your contribution.

 

[Paillan]

So it begins...

 

[Xtazush]

yo Nudl, ive been playing this map for the past 2 weeks now and im addicted. this is a smash hit in the works! i hope more people will get exposed to the map and suggests improvements and ideas as it gets better and better everyday. guys dont forget, the version is still pre v1.0 (beta) so obviously u will find some issues with hero balances and stuff.. but for what it its amazing. 5/5!

 

[nhs325]

Can you made a hero pick mode? I don't like the default random (only 3 heroes at a time) that much.

 

[Nudl9]

Maybe in the future, but it will stay how it is for now.

 

[nhs325]

Also how can the Blitzjaeger cast spells when he has no mana to begin with? Should I suppose to buy mana items for him?

After all, a really nice map and also a great Battle Royale - style map. I like the amount of custom spells you added to the heroes and also some of the custom heroes are very nice too.

 

[Nudl9]

That's a "debug" function i forgot to remove, it's basicly a bug, i'm really sorry about that sometimes these things slip through because i never really do proper testing before releases.
I always continually fix these things as i go, so theres usually a bunch of versions on the ENTbot, while the versions uploaded on hive are the ones i consider "stable" most of the time.
So i'll upload the new fixed version v0.38b where it's fixed.

I do try my very best to make all heroes equally fun.
Since you do get random ones, all your choices should be fun to play and if they aren't please let me know
I prefer not to change the original ones too much in case people come from ladder and certain heroes are near and dear to them.
There are still some standard heroes that need work like Naga's ulti, Paladin needs to be more fun (he's not bad, just not fun) and Lich needs a replenish skill that doesn't sacrifice own units, but without being OP.
The custom heroes are usually more gimmicky in regards to standard heroes though as you might have figured.

 

[nhs325]

I (tested in singleplayer) and tried to get the new hero in the latest version. Basicly I keep repeating restart the map..... for about 50 times.

Still no Deep Dweller.

I know its a gimmick of the map but its so tedious sometimes (unless you get Hunter or so and laugh at the rest of the match).

 

[Nudl9]

Ah, i just noticed i forgot to add him to the random INT hero pool.
He's still in the true random hero pool, but there's like 36 heroes there.
There were 2 spots for Blood Conjurer hero, so guess that explains her often popping up.
Gosh i feel stupid now.

I'll add him properly once v0.39 i complete.

 

[Kakerate]

You are on the right track by changing heroes to make them unique in this arena setting. The war3 heroes were originally designed with RTS gameplay in mind, so changing those is pretty important.

 

[Nudl9]

The original warcraft heroes work fine, i've only made changes where neccessary as i prefer to keep them as close to their original form. By using familiar heroes, i can ease players in more smoothly, so there's rarely an explanation needed. It's still an RTS game in a lot of aspects, but buildings are far less common here then in ladder, so that's where the department that usually warrants changes when it comes to spells. Such as Far Seer's Earthquake and Naga Sea Witch Tornado wreack havoc to buildings. Some spells are just inconvenient to use or don't provide much benefit in the endgame such as Archmage's Mass Teleport or Lich's Death and Decay, so they warrant some changes too.

I'd also like to hear the reason for your rating because i want to know why you wouldn't consider it a 5/5.
If it isn't your type of genre then i can understand, but i need to hear things from my target audience which is generally ladder players or competetive players.

 

[dan992]

@Nudl9 Hello, I played this map with you. I was told you it would be better with "only hero battle" because it would make more sense to be a battle royal map to me, also replace the Air heroes with normal heroes. Have a great day maybe we see us next time ingame

 

[Nudl9]

I'm sure some people are dissapointed about the map not being exclusively a hero arena. Keep in mind there's clear definition of the term "battle royale". It's a term usually referred to a game where opponents are set up against each other in a setting where all players face each other. So my map fits perfectly fine with the term. As for why my map isn't a straight up hero arena, but more like an RTS. There are several reasons:

1# Uniqueness
Because units are what separates Warcraft Royale for any other battle royale game, if it weren't for units it'd just be exactly like Battlerite. Units are what makes this battle royale unique to every other battle royale and it's more in line with the theme "Warcraft". What makes this map cool is that strategy is the biggest factor to winning, not raw skill alone.

2# Balance
More units means you can do more and more is often better. In games like DOTA, you will straight up lose certain 1v1 hero matchups because of hero design. In this game you can make up for a lot of your weaknesses and counters with units alone. So this game is much more balanced because you can always play the rock paper scissor game.

3# Simplicity
I made this map with the original warcraft heroes because players are familiar with them and because it's the fastest way i could make a functional version (took me 3 days to make this). The original heroes were designed with units in mind, so that's a big reason for keeping units. If you haven't noticed, they're very simple on paper: this ability deals damage and/or stuns for example. Unlike hero fight games like LOL, DOTA where each spell has a million subset effects and details you need to be aware about. This is because in these games, you can afford to make them more advanced, since you have less things to work with.

4# Skills
I like difficult games that take time and skills to learn. By having units the game the skill cap. is raised massively, allowing players to reach new heights with raw mechanical skills alone. I realise this turns off casual players that only play TD and such, but at the same time they are the players that dislike DOTA and games that require even just a tiny fraction of skill, so it's like trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.


The air hero isn't going anywhere. She's been thoroughly tested and she has great strengths, but also great weaknesses and fits in line with the rest of the game. She can harass pretty effectively earlygame, but struggles with bad lategame and solo farm. She's a gimmick that's easily countered if you just get gargoyles, crypt fiends, web item or orb.

 

[Fat hamster]

please make the bots more smart :v

 

[Nudl9]

I honestly don't know how to make bots.
If i could i wouldn't hesitate because i honestly like having bots for testing purposes.

 

[OverClocked]

I feel like the matches are a bit too short. Maybe give players more time before the walls start to shrink?

 

[Nudl9]

I understand that it might be fun to play longer, but for the sake of balance things have to be short otherwise players reach 7+ level every time with a food cap of 30-40. Just recently i added 1 minute more and it changed everything, because players just snowball harder.