Warcraft III: Reforged Developer Update - Player Profiles

[Waffle]

Expecting GUI to have equal functionality to full syntax is silly. At least if you want to be remotely productive.
Although I will say that they could make it similar to the SC2 editor which indeed supports local variables in GUI.
But given that the feedback for SC2 was that the SC2 editor was considered too complex, perhaps that is not where we should draw inspiration from.

So, you make the editor "simpler" by leaving out the most basic functionality to writre concise and maintainable code?
Just because the implementation is missing crutial pieces does not mean it is simple or simple-to-use..
Let me know how simple you feel the editor to be, when you want to write MUI triggers and have to deal with global state and arrays or maps to keep things from imploding.

 

[deepstrasz]

Let me know how simple you feel the editor to be, when you want to write MUI triggers and have to deal with global state and arrays or maps to keep things from imploding.

And you can't even array within array; the numbers get overwritten. It's quite limited, GUI.

 

[Uncle]

So, you make the editor "simpler" by leaving out the most basic functionality to writre concise and maintainable code?
Just because the implementation is missing crutial pieces does not mean it is simple or simple-to-use..
Let me know how simple you feel the editor to be, when you want to write MUI triggers and have to deal with global state and arrays or maps to keep things from imploding.

Your frustrations are justified as these things should be available, but I think it's important to point out that if you're capable of handling all of those annoying GUI workarounds then you're probably ready to make the jump from GUI to coding.

Also, if you continue to use GUI, remember that the editor now supports Lua, which will make your Custom scripting life a hell of a lot easier. Just keep in mind that Lua comes with a cost as you can't use both Lua/Jass at the same time.

 

[Wooden PC]

Well about damn time too. This seems more promising than "fixing naga's ears", and the community have been asking since forever. Now I wonder if they're gonna do something to save the map making community too.

 

[DracoL1ch]

to save what tho?

 

[Wooden PC]

to save what tho?

Sorry I meant map making community. Brain not functioning right now. I've been playing some other game that support mod

 

[RagnarokBazil]

Why remove what was not broken?

 

[deepstrasz]

Why remove what was not broken?

So it can be reborn.

 

[Waffle]

Your frustrations are justified as these things should be available, but I think it's important to point out that if you're capable of handling all of those annoying GUI workarounds then you're probably ready to make the jump from GUI to coding.

If you work on a map with several people you are likely to be in a situation where some people are comfortable with writing pure jass2 (or vjass or Wurst or what ever is the current hotness). But making interfaces that are easy to use from GUI still matters. Exposing custom functions as first class citizens in GUI would make it easy to make systems and spells in jass and then let people with different focus invoke these from GUI code or tweak small things without having to deal with the brittle JASS experience.

GUI is also the gateway drug to map scripting. If GUI is hard then less people will catch on and graduate to the better alternatives. It is also forcing bad software engineering practises on new mapmakers which is making all of our lives worse in the long run.

Also, if you continue to use GUI, remember that the editor now supports Lua, which will make your Custom scripting life a hell of a lot easier. Just keep in mind that Lua comes with a cost as you can't use both Lua/Jass at the same time.

That's just another way to say: "Hey i see you have a map that you have developed for 10 years, too bad, now go rewrite and test ALL of it, before you get to play with any of the Lua goodies". It's not accessible to existing maps and going lua means you cannot make use any of the excellent community libraries that have been written in jass/vjass/zinc or even WurstScript (i think that requires a tad more trickery, but its doable) assets can be made use of.

 

[Uncle]

If you work on a map with several people you are likely to be in a situation where some people are comfortable with writing pure jass2 (or vjass or Wurst or what ever is the current hotness). But making interfaces that are easy to use from GUI still matters. Exposing custom functions as first class citizens in GUI would make it easy to make systems and spells in jass and then let people with different focus invoke these from GUI code or tweak small things without having to deal with the brittle JASS experience.

GUI is also the gateway drug to map scripting. If GUI is hard then less people will catch on and graduate to the better alternatives. It is also forcing bad software engineering practises on new mapmakers which is making all of our lives worse in the long run.


That's just another way to say: "Hey i see you have a map that you have developed for 10 years, too bad, now go rewrite and test ALL of it, before you get to play with any of the Lua goodies". It's not accessible to existing maps and going lua means you cannot make use any of the excellent community libraries that have been written in jass/vjass/zinc or even WurstScript (i think that requires a tad more trickery, but its doable) assets can be made use of.

Yeah, but most of those Jass libraries become obsolete with the introduction of Lua. The ones that remain useful like knockback systems were easy to recreate, and Bribe's Damage Engine has Lua support.

If you aren't using a lot of big Jass libraries then the syntax updating isn't too difficult, you simply shave off all instances of the word "set", "call", etc... as Lua syntax is a lot cleaner. But yeah, I hear you, it's too much of a pain to update something you've worked on for 10 years.

But I highly recommend it if you're starting a map off fresh!

 

[Appreauntis]

Man this makes me so frustrated.

They are not ready to deliver anything yet, just months and months of them giving us corporate speak that they are making progress on these important aspects of the game, and these things everyone wants aren't even new to the game! They are literally taking sooooooo long just to reintroduce features that the game already had for 15+ years and acting like it's fresh. Except they're making it look worse!

This feels like a nightmare that I can't ever seem to wake up from.

I know, I know it's just a game, but it still has a lot of sentimental value for me, it feels like they have disfigured this thing I love, painted over it with makeup, and are now asking me to pretend it looks better, and to be excited that it's making progress towards being able to slowly walk again.

I had such dreams...

The engine and World Editor expanded and powered up to such heights that we couldn't even dream of...

A new expansion that only takes the good from WOW and none of the bad...

A truly new breath of revitalizing life for the game and the community...

It's all so much worse than I could have ever expected, or imagined on my own.

At this point my only hope would an extremely unlikely changing of leadership/staff at Blizzard, and some sort of genius savior who could restore everything and truly expand upon and preserve Wc3.

But I know in my heart that it's not going to happen.

It's like people taking a painting, and instead of leaving the old one be and creating a new separate 'updated' version of the painting, they paint over the old one, and make any and all replicas and previous drafts rare and hard to obtain on the black market. Oh and everything that used to actively discuss and utilize the old painting is now forced to use the new 'updated' one.

I guess I know now how those Star Wars purists feel about George Lucas's Special Edition additions over the years.

Sighing in sadness.

 

[Shido]

This one is original to 10 years + of me playing melee against my friends. Night ELVES? Lose Lose Lose Lose Lose !
My first win with N.E is from a guy afk'ed because of parent ganking.

 

[Chaosy]

This feels like a nightmare that I can't ever seem to wake up from.

I know, I know it's just a game, but it still has a lot of sentimental value for me, it feels like they have disfigured this thing I love, painted over it with makeup, and are now asking me to pretend it looks better, and to be excited that it's making progress towards being able to slowly walk again.

Jesus, dude.
If your nightmare is a game not living up to expectations you might need a wakeup call.

The world editor was never meant to be powerful, it never was and it never will be.
It's limiting - obviously.
If you want to create stuff without limits, work with a proper game engine. Not a freaking world editor of an old game.

WE has a lot of convenience as it comes with built in pathing, shadows, collision, models and textures that fit together. So its easy to get up and running which is one of the few reasons I still mod from time to time. But ultimately, it cannot compete with the real alternatives in terms of potential.

 

[Appreauntis]

Jesus, dude.
If your nightmare is a game not living up to expectations you might need a wakeup call.

It's not so much that I had expectations for Reforged, but that I feel Reforged was mostly a downgrade over classic. And I wouldn't care that much about that if there was some kind of parallel version that recieved the relevant updates (melee balance, editor additions and enhancements) but otherwise remained the same. But not only is that not the case, they have made it very hard to acquire pre-reforged post blizzard launcher patches that contain very important updates such as widescreen, 24 players and colors, and pertinent editor stuff. This has all resulted in a fractured community. And the reaction to Reforged means that Wc3 didn't see a resurgence either, and has probably only bled active players and map makers.

But yes, I understand it's just a game. It's not a crime to be over dramatic is it? Lol.

The world editor was never meant to be powerful, it never was and it never will be.
It's limiting - obviously.
If you want to create stuff without limits, work with a proper game engine. Not a freaking world editor of an old game.

Eh, I disagree. I think the WE is considered plenty powerful for it's time. And lots of people like and have used it for 15+ years, during which time it's been improved and added upon.

I never said that I want no limits, there's always game engines like you mentioned for that. But is it so wrong to have a pie in the sky dream? I don't see a reason WE can't be continually improved regardless of what it is (this also means making it even easier to use, which makes sense since it's supposed to be a user friendly accessible (with hidden depth for those who can make use of it) program for making maps.)

Also, if I'm specifically talking about Wc3, and just my own thoughts on what it could be, you can't replace or replicate that with a different game engine. Blizzard owns the IP and base code of the game. So concerning Wc3 we are all at their mercy.

Also also, if we did run into certain hard limits of the engine and software, well, what an opportunity Reforged could have been to rebuild the engine and software for modern technology!

But yes, the above is incredibly unrealistic and improbable. I'm mostly just bitter about reforged, and how they forced everyones desktop icons who didn't buy it to auto patch and download everything anyways back at launch, unless you knew how to circumvent it by comment/post hunting through reddit and here.

 

[Chaosy]

I think the WE is considered plenty powerful for it's time. And lots of people like and have used it for 15+ years, during which time it's been improved and added upon.

It is fairly powerful, but only if you want to make certain types of maps.
Try to make a 2d map, possible but insanely more difficult than it should be. The knowledge needed would allow you to make something easier from scratch.
Try to increase the inventory size from 6 to 10. In my mind this should be one line of code, but it is not it requires hours of work for such a simple thing.
Object generation is only possible through third party tools.
We don't even have syntax highlightning in the default WE.

So let's say they do fix all of that which patches.

I cannot change the pathing algorithm. I cannot change render techniques, I cannot change lighting or shadows.
We cannot impact the performance of the game in any fundamental way. Plenty of maps lag because of this.
These are important things when making high end products.
Are they needed? admittedly not but if we aim high this has potential

So I ask this, who are the dream features for?
the average modder wont use anything complicated so why bother adding so much stuff. We were recently allowed to mess around with UI natives, how many actually know how to use it? very few from what I have seen

In order to maximize what the WE can do you're putting in double the effort for half the result.
This is ultimately what it comes down to for me. Yes you can do a lot of stuff with hacks and clunky workarounds. But why?

 

[Kyrbi0]

Well of you aren't trying to make entirely different kinds of games, and are instead just making custom factions & heroes, it's pretty dang great. : )

 

[Chaosy]

True most of the time.
There are still a fair few quality of life things I would like before I take away the clunky tag but that's something they could realistically fix at least.

 

[DracoL1ch]

The world editor was never meant to be powerful

damn what a time to live
"modding community was never meant to keep this game alive"

 

[Linaze]

It is fairly powerful, but only if you want to make certain types of maps.
Try to make a 2d map, possible but insanely more difficult than it should be. The knowledge needed would allow you to make something easier from scratch.
Try to increase the inventory size from 6 to 10. In my mind this should be one line of code, but it is not it requires hours of work for such a simple thing.
Object generation is only possible through third party tools.
We don't even have syntax highlightning in the default WE.

So let's say they do fix all of that which patches.

I cannot change the pathing algorithm. I cannot change render techniques, I cannot change lighting or shadows.
We cannot impact the performance of the game in any fundamental way. Plenty of maps lag because of this.
These are important things when making high end products.
Are they needed? admittedly not but if we aim high this has potential

So I ask this, who are the dream features for?
the average modder wont use anything complicated so why bother adding so much stuff. We were recently allowed to mess around with UI natives, how many actually know how to use it? very few from what I have seen

In order to maximize what the WE can do you're putting in double the effort for half the result.
This is ultimately what it comes down to for me. Yes you can do a lot of stuff with hacks and clunky workarounds. But why?

Dude, if you are at the level where you want to write your own pathing algorithms or change rendering techniques then clearly you are using the wrong tool, reforged or no reforged.

I agree that there are minor things here and there that either needs to be fixed or would be nice if they were fixed in terms of modding impact. But at what point do you think the tool would be powerful enough for so called "high end products", when they upload the source code at sourceforge for everyone to fork?

 

[Appreauntis]

Like what was mentioned by Chaosy, some things I think would be really cool to make easily modifiable in the WE (for those who want to make use Wc3 IP and foundational elements like the pathing and systems pre set into the game) would be:

Ability to easily increase number of item slots.

Ability to easily change UI elements.

Ability to more easily (through GUI for noobs like me) create units, spells, triggers and such.

Also, what if the engine and code could be improved to take advantage of more powerful hardware so that we could have ever increasing map size options, numbers of units and objects on the map, more height layers, ability to use any and all terrain tiles instead of having to choose a fixed number?

What if WE had a basic 3d modeler packaged with it mean't specifically for the classic Wc3 style? That would be wild.

World Editor is a sort of way for people who love Wc3, who can't or won't learn everything that would be required to make your own game in a fully fledged game engine, to do similar things with what you can imagine using the tools and assets that WE provides.

So I'm simply disappointed that they decided to make Reforged what it is instead of more along the lines of what I've described.

 

[RagnarokBazil]

So it can be reborn.

through china's pay check~

 

[Misha]

to me, who only made models and played custom custom games by this community, profile avatars and stats mean zilch .u.

 

[deepstrasz]

Well, modders are 2nd grade people for now.
However, let's not forget the new stuff they added before the Reforged fiasco.

 

[DracoL1ch]

I can name the 1st grade person right away
B... K...

 

[Wlizer]

I think these blizzard posts doesnt belong to hiveworkshop that revolves around map make and not ladder&single players. (note: I meant it opposite revolves around ladder and not map making)


You could only mention if there is any changes that would effect on map making. If you continue the path you have now chosen hiveworkshop will lost its previous indentitety and become more like developers brainstorming to test and release reforged patches. It is not our work, we are freelancers trying to make our own things..

 

[RED BARON]

to me, who only made models and played custom custom games by this community, profile avatars and stats mean zilch .u.

Yep - Reforged is still the thing that stole away my last notion of being able to mod for Wc3. And the irony of one of the better updates being re-implementing stuff from the old game.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Yep - Reforged is still the thing that stole away my last notion of being able to mod for Wc3. And the irony of one of the better updates being re-implementing stuff from the old game.

Don't give up hope. We're still modding out here, though things are a little rough. I'm just keeping my head down & plugging away; I know there'll be someone who appreciates it when it's all over (even if that 'someone' is only me : )

 

[Misha]

well if i ever buy reforged, i'll try modding it

 

[RED BARON]

Don't give up hope. We're still modding out here, though things are a little rough. I'm just keeping my head down & plugging away; I know there'll be someone who appreciates it when it's all over (even if that 'someone' is only me : )

I mean, yea I will make stuff for it.. But I can't test it now nor try others stuff - which ruins quite a bit of the experience. But who knows, maybe they will change course at some point.