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Warcraft III: Reforged Developer Update – Ranked Play

Discussion in 'Latest Updates and News' started by Mythic, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    No I mean, make games, don't expect payment by using someone else's game. You'd like to compare mapping with the pro ladder scene. Well, they made few contests for mappers. But you expect more than a pool to be won, you expect a salary of sorts.
    Honestly, I don't think Warcraft III/StarCraft II paid maps/resources would have stopped the nowadays crap of microtransactions and pay to win games.
    Also, the community for the above mentioned games is so small and was smaller than the rest of the gaming world that it wouldn't have made that much difference outside these communities.
    You're saying Blizzard (which works under daddy Activision) is on its way to bankruptcy? But they got phones too.
    Well, I guess it could work two ways, where they and the map/mod authors would earn on sales and whatnot. Maybe, if they ultimately decide to turn the Galaxy/World Editor into a sort of Unity or engine or whatever, it could work out decently. Maybe even platforms like Steam will get less attention. Yeah right. Now, if you could use the engine to create external/stand alone products and release them on Steam, well...
    As I mentioned, mapping and modding games is a hobby nothing more. You want it so that people could take the short way to earning money.
    Sure, the system ain't perfect but it in no way is comparable with making your own game and selling it. I can hear you compare it to digital audio workstations where you only pay for the software and then you can sell the products made with it. Well, truth be told, you can't expect a musician to code and create their instruments to make that music and sell it. Similarly, coders don't reinvent the wheel, they use known techniques and tricks to make their own game. However with stuff like game editors like WcIII's and SCII's, you basically make the musician sort of not even entirely make the music but use loops and samples instead of musical notes.
    So, while I respect your enthusiasm, rather, a bit fanaticism, my point is not leaning towards business in such a way as you want it.
    The system not only can be but will be abused. The AAAs are already doing it themselves. What will stop the peasantry from doing it too?
    How would your map work as a business model, huh? Would you sell it numerous times after each update? Would you find ways to lock parts of it (like Blizzard does with their newer games) until players will pay for those parts to be unlocked? Should I trust you won't use any sorts of dopamine rush microtransactions? Maybe you'll make an inbuilt casino (auction house anyone?)?
    What I'm saying is, it's enough we have officially released games with such marketing strategies. The last we need is plaguing the Warcraft III community with that.
    Because if something can go wrong it will.
    Why are you for instance not satisfied with Pateron/donations? What makes things so much different in that people would pay you more if your idea is a reality than what I suggested?
    I really think you should be differentiating hobbies/free time from work hours. The fact that you expect income for something you work on with pleasure in your free time does not cover the whole world's concept of free time and doing things with pleasure and sharing them with others.
    Heck, I'd be worried more of others selling your stuff than earning money yourself. I mean, maybe Blizzard should actually take care of that, you know?
    Suddenly, all this has become an economic conspiracy. Well played.
    But we'll stick to great people who do it for the fun of it, not for gaining something in return or else!
    I think you're being a bit too harsh on our resource creators here, those who made and make awesome stuff and don't get a penny for it. Clearly, they cannot compare to the paid grandmasters.

    I'm sorry if I'm being too annoying to you but seriously, I think you're getting too dramatic over this.
     
  2. fenix140

    fenix140

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    Here it is no longer about profit or not, mostly this community of war 3 was born simply by the fact of creating games within another, and this is present in SC 1, everything started there (In the Blizzard community, it does not take into account other communities, which accomplished greater things).
    It's like Waffle posting, if blizzard's had given continuous improvements to their publisher, the community would have grown exponentially.
    But also as deepstrasz commented, mostly the community started in the fan, and in the hobby, its free resources are within this forum, thanks to the fact that also the old Blizzard did not want to take possession of the creativity of the community (To get rid of copyright charges).
    The problem is that Activision put an absurdity on its editor, this is what makes the current community at least not prosper. If they at least removed one or changed the clauses for the good of the mappers, it would be an appropriate support. And I do not see in the future that they will make changes to this.
     
  3. Homor

    Homor

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    Even if nobody can control what gets big or popular, there are things you can do to greatly effect the likelihood of success or failure.
     
  4. Jouven

    Jouven

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    The talk about the "next Dota" only factoring the editor is naive, even if they fixed the game crashes/desyncs and added what is left to have the game in the same state as pre-reforged warcraft 3. Remember all the mods that made it big, half-life counter-strike, half-life natural selection, warcraft 3 dota, quake 3 bid for power, quake 2 gloom, quake 2 vortex, quake 2 pong... etc. I know some of these wouldn't make it big, but a lot of current games are based on or have a lot of similarities to these mods. What all have in common is dedicated server software and this ties in allowing a community to be born, you could have the warcraft 3 editor of your dreams and make a great map, but the p2p multiplayer will probably kill any chance of success on the spot (single-player and turn-based games would be safe, but how many of those, or based on those, made it big? I know dota single-player clones exist but they aren't popular, turn-card-based games also come to mind but I don't know if they started as a mod of any game and I don't know if their popularity can even compare)

    Just to drive home my point that the editor is not that important when talking about the "next Dota", some of these mods aren't that complex if you think about it, counter-strike is not that advanced, the most important work tends to go into the design of the levels, not the mechanics, now imagine if counter-strike was only single-player or the multiplayer was p2p based and some player had to host a game every time... nearly no one would play it

    Remember in SC2 custom multiplayer (which is free) Blizzard actively tries to hide who is hosting by having the lobbies already "created", like presets of custom games, and there is no way of checking who is the host, and the only way I know, is when he leaves mid-game and some host changing shenanigans happen, also I think there is no way to check your latency in-game (correct me if I'm wrong here), who plays a game like this?
    Even with the "more powerful" SC2 editor I know of 0 SC2 popular multiplayer custom maps, the most popular SC2 mods are single-player
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  5. fenix140

    fenix140

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    For Activision it did not prevent them from putting the absurd clauses in the editor. This error of controlling map mods in the community is what killed SC2.
     
  6. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I haven't heard of any of those except for Counter-Strike and DotA. Also, wasn't Counter-Strike an official mod anyway?
    Not sure what popular actually means. I mean if it means some people play it. That can basically be said about some Warcraft III maps. Sure CS and DotA have tons of players. Don't know about the other stuff you mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  7. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    2 mapmakers:
    1st remembers dota's success, he makes his mind, wasting evenings with editor, learning, leveling up, reching new stuff, dreaming of success and making his map masterpiece.
    2nd remembers new EULA and the fact he will never have anything from that map, even in case of giant success (lol) , so he has less motivation and less time for editing. He'd rather go into something he can at least claim as his own.

    guess what, if you had 50/50 before, you'll have 10/90 now, means quality still drops, and there are no way to motivate people to go beyond limits.
    The more walls you put, the less people go through, thats a fact. blizzard put a fucking la Ligne Maginot over wc3 development.
     
  8. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I don't think the idea of Warcraft III was to be developed. It was supposed to be a game that had a map making tool. People pushed it further with mods and creative ideas around the game's original code.
    I think the only downside of the EULA is with maps. Icons, models can't be put under it since they're externally made.
    But again, the idea wasn't for people to make games out of maps. That happened with DotA, later with Element TD.
    By the way, I think the law issues were only related to DotA. Element TD got away with it :D

    I mean look, there was even a flash Element TD made by someone else than the original map authors:
    Flash Element TD - Wikipedia
    Here it doesn't even say who made it: Element TD 2 - Multiplayer Tower Defense on Steam but mentions "its" history from Warcraft III to StarCraft II and DotA 2. Nothing of the flash game though. Alright, there was a link to their official site or something: Element Studios - Team OK, so it looks like the original dudes are there, lol, even one Romanian in the team.

    So, I guess, Acti-Blizz's EULA counts as much as a piece of paper you'd write something on and expect me to respect what's written without signing it with my own hand.
     
  9. Jouven

    Jouven

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    I forgot about that, but yeah that's another nail in the coffin

    Counter-strike was bought later by Valve. There are several mods from the quake 1/2/3 and half-life 1/2 era that would spawn or inspire full blown games, like team fortress
     
  10. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Sure. But there the difference is that those people were hired and the rights acquired: Counter-Strike (video game) - Wikipedia Imagine that, those modders had rights.

    As for Team Fortress, it looks like it was initially a Quake mod: Team Fortress Classic - Wikipedia Here, Valve hired those who worked on the original Team Fortress mod as well.

    This is somewhat compared to how MindWorX worked on WEX and was hired by Blizzard to work with the Classic team.
     
  11. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    you dont need icons, models etc for your standalone game. you don't need anything but the concept of the game.
    but you need your ground to not be sued by multibillionare company with long-term impotency
    and new eula takes that ground right away from under your feet

    element TD went fine because it is tens times smaller thing than Dota. Remember the biggest prize pool in history of gaming? With brocken back blizzard let those halfings to live, it would cost them much more to sue than potential owning.

    Im not saying other corps do better. Im saying blizzard went from good to worse in a few steps, and there are nothing to fix it. Not at all.
     
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Ideas are not copyrightable: What Does Copyright Protect? (FAQ) | U.S. Copyright Office
    I don't deny that the move against DotA was of bad character. It will forever be engraved on their foreheads.
    But I think the issue there wasn't on concept but on the name which is copyrightable as a trademark.
    https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ33.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  13. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    yeah, thats right
    if I put "deepstrasz" as a heroname for my map you automatically can sue me.. but cannot get rights for my map. you will only sue me because I used your brand to make map more appropiatable for users who know you.
    meanwhile blizzard tried to put it the way 'they used our names so this game is ours', which is pure bullshit
     
  14. MrRious

    MrRious

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    This shit looks like a mobile game
     
  15. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    First, Riot Games (well a subsidiary) sued Valve for filing a trademark claim (necessary to get the franchise legally going). Riot Games sold the DotA-Allstars, LLC (Limited liability company - Wikipedia) to Blizzard (lol) and Blizzard continued the lawsuit. And of course, the Chinese being their communist selves, uCool released a game with DotA characters and declared DotA was a open source collective work (with emphasis on collective :D) and that it could not be copyrighted.

    The story can be read here: Dota 2 - Wikipedia
    The fact is they fought for a name.
     
  16. Amigoltu

    Amigoltu

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    Personally, I could consider buying Reforged if they fixed the performance and added some actual Editor changes (something I wanted from the start). But looking at the snail-pace of progress now, I remain skeptical. Besides...

    Games like Reforged bring a ... moral question, I guess. Should we buy the products of a company like this? Should we support such business model, when companies blatantly lie? Make a mountain of promises, but then fail at simply releasing a working game? Should we support a remaster that is still worse than original half a year after release?

    Even if this DOES actually become good after a few more years, I will have doubts about paying money to a company like Blizzard.
     
  17. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I think you should pay when the game is actually ready.
    Now, depends what you mean by paying or for what since basically you're still buying the graphics overhaul (which you can do just now) since Classic patches are free if you have the original game.
     
  18. istvan921

    istvan921

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    I really hate these guys at Blizzad now how could they mess up a game that was good for 18 years i really hope they are gonna get an even worse backlash than this
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I hope the guys at Blizzard will get some true enlightenment, not that of the industrial age, thus bringing us the true transcendence of Warcraft III.
     
  20. disruptive_

    disruptive_

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    It is more honest to say that people don't mod because they are mad about Reforged, not because of the EULA/Custom Game Policy which already had that clause atleast by 2017.