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Reforged Warcraft III Reforged - Artistic/Textures/UI Feedback

Discussion in 'Patch & Reforged Discussion' started by Sieben, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. SebioL

    SebioL

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    deepstrasz,
    That's your taste! all right ... at least Blizzard gives you the possibility to import recent HD models. You should question the lack of greater compatibility with HOTS or other games, which you need, already exists in these, at least for the main characters.
    But know that there are others who think differently and the stylistic reinvention work with Reforged was a proposal that pleased other interested parties.
    YourArthas,
    Storm Knight,

    What's wrong with trying new trends? They created a different style on their own, even at the risk of a new generation not being interested or finding it terrible. The old generation already has its HD models in the same quality lineage. What sense does it make Reforged to do this just like the others? Is there a law prohibiting launching new styles?
    There are already recent models of the Warcraft saga made by her in the same patterns in the same last years, you have the freedom to insert them in the classic itself.
    I agree that there was a severe relapse in the quality of Doodads and other accessory elements environmentally, there was really a lack of goodwill and investing more to do a good part of the aggregate aspects of Reforged, this is a more constructive criticism and I agree to criticize more in these terms, but to criticize the models that were somehow well made, it is lack of common sense, it is not a question of them being bad, but a matter of merely preferences tastes.
    To be honest, Blizzard had to innovate in some way and I believe that they have reinvented themselves in aesthetics and used Warcraft Reforged to present this new artistic generation, a pity that they only did to the models, forgetting the remaining landscaping.
    Because if it were to remaster the Warcraft, putting only models of the same series in HD. You already have the Mod Rebirth in HD or even the HOTS, all of them with models in high quality graphics in the Blizzard standard, what sense for Reforged to repeat every game and still redo models in the standard style to what they have done recently in all others games in recent years? There are even dozens of MODs with their own fans creating models in the same patterns, why repeat that, if the only innovative thing about Reforged, were the different models?
    So you want to tell me that the only innovative thing you wanted was just a better graphics engine, just that again ???
    Rather than complaining about something new that she brought, just because she didn’t like it just for the sake of taste, they should care more about the lack of new or more different features.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  2. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    There is 'a law prohibiting launching new styles' it is called franchise, in this case which is named Warcraft. You can't go to McDonald's and expect a Dominos Pizza from them. You can't name a product Warcraft when it looks nothing like it. Reforged will never be Warcraft III as long as they do not remake the graphics as 'Warcraft III HD Remaster' sell it as a dlc or something I don't mind it but other than that it is not Warcraft III and not welcome to Warcraft Franchise
     
  3. SebioL

    SebioL

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    The law may exist, but it is immoral, because Blizzard is a private initiative, it launches its games on its own if it doesn't please the public, what does the government have to do? Whoever loses audience will be herself. It does not force you to buy new proposals!
    Blizzard is famous for its style. Okay, but who told you that everyone loves this crumpled style of dolls? Models Dwarf sized and face small? He's really interesting and even nostalgic. But there are people who want to see something new, even those who like what is traditional.
    It is worth remembering that this style only existed in case you didn't know, because during the origin of the game, there was a need to implement these aspects due to the game needing to drastically compress the models so that they could work as an example of Warcraft II, these models are very original more because of historical equipment issues of the past decade. Smaller monitors, little space for palettes and not even Zoom you had, give thanks to Warcraft III still bringing that look. But nowadays, I see no obstacles in trying to experience a new experience and I was very pleased with the new models ...
     
  4. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    You probably never heard the one that MADE Blizzard's whole art before Reforged Samwise Didier's interviews:



    He explains why this style is the way and why they will not do Realistic stuff.

    Here is the result when you write Warcraft :

    [​IMG]

    Those are HD and up to date with good polygon counts (as much as Reforged's) and high quality textures (2048x2048) yet they are not shit like Reforged because they value the quality, style and are HAND PAINTED and not generated like Reforged. You can't expect something like this when the franchise is the thing shown above: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/43/5b/57435bfd63588bc8dfc1196dbe03cf9a.png


    Note: Added the second image as a link so peoples eyes will not suffer
     
  5. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    As is Reforged for the minority, I'm afraid. You don't make a game or good sales with minorities.
    Also, after you rip all those models you mentioned AND add animations to them, we'll have this chat again. Until then, you don't have an argument. I'm not gonna learn modelling and buy model creation programs so I can satisfy your annoyance.
    It's wrong when you do it badly. I mean, take a look at WoW. I don't fancy it that much but compared to Reforged, it's way more Warcraft looking. Reforged looks good as its own game but sadly it's not. It's a huge visual patch to Warcraft III which doesn't need the Asian stereotype video game graphics. This only makes Reforged worse, not better since there's nothing special about the way it looks even if it does look good.
    I don't know. What's the sense of Heroes of the Storm when there's DotA out there? It's not doing it exactly the same, that's what. So, a proper remastered would have worked wonders, not being the same as fans did and besides fans can't do top notch stuff due to lack of resources.
    This is not Warcraft IV dude, it's Warcraft III. Such an old game doesn't need stupid realist graphics.
    I think you should care for what you should do and stop telling others what they are to do.
     
  6. SebioL

    SebioL

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    You even become funny, I think it's very fair that you defend classic trends. I do not disapprove of it, after all, Warcraft has become a historical standard in this regard. But you still have recent, quality alternatives to add that to your new graphics engine.
    And to be frank ... I don't like Voltaire ... but I will use his phrase:
    "I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It"
     
  7. SebioL

    SebioL

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    Do not say that you are relativizing, stating that the drop in sales is due to the models, is that you disregard all general criticisms that exist in Reforged. See Metacritic as the basis of most criticisms and even the criticisms of Youtubers are due to very general issues and not to the models themselves. As for the look, I see a lot of criticism for the scenery itself being the same and not so much the characters' arts.
    If there is a big problem with Reforged models, it may be the high amount of details for modeling.

    But we are not accommodated people, we will not maintain archaic patterns or regress just because we have evolved in the amount of polygonal or details. Each year we have even more sophisticated tools that facilitate, we ourselves must evolve even as humans in modeling, not be stagnant in banal things. Look at Autodesk platforms, MdlVis itself helps enough even for the most complex models.
    HOTS was a way for Blizzard to try to get closer to DOTA that was bought by another franchise, which took advantage of it well. But at least HOTS served to provide us with better warcraft models than WOW.
    I agree that if models were made in the standard style, they would be of better quality than HOTS, of course, but if you are not as demanding with realism, very high resolutions or as good definition as the current ones. I don't understand why you're not happy with the HD in other Blizz games ... I know it wasn't the intention to make Warcraft 4, but if it's Reforged, it makes sense to reinvent yourself in the characters. For me the stupid thing would be to repeat the same game and bring models with the same HOTS or WOW features. I wouldn't even buy the game, as it would be the same as having the Rebirth MOD models, only with an improved graphics engine, just inserting more shadders and lighting ...
    What's that for? And I am not ordering you what to do, I am saying that you are complaining a lot about what would be the smallest focus. After all ... Making models in the standard Blizzard style, any modification goes back to the same classic pattern because they are simpler styles. Now complaining about leaks errors in the triggers, the flaw in the AI of the vessels, compatibility of import of the models themselves to release those of all Blizzard games and etc ... etc ... could be more profitable discussions for the Reforged.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  8. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    It's the same regardless, a visual patch. The idea of buying one is stupid regardless. I don't care about Reforged for the graphics but for the lightening and editor enhancements. Anyways, since I don't like the models, I'll just stick to Classic and eventually when proper models would be made or ripped for it, I'll think about Reforged.
    This has nothing to do with graphics evolution. This can be done retaining the Warcraft style.
    What you see in Reforged is a repetition regardless of what you want to think. However, since it's a graphical remake, at least it should be consistent which is obviously not.

    Please don't multipost.
     
  9. SebioL

    SebioL

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    Yes, in the end we will always end up in the same discussion. Creating apologies only for individual tastes ...
    What matters most would be the Reforged to add a more improved graphics engine. But I think that the community will adapt well to making MODs both at the Reforged level and for the old standards due to the texture issue being more varied for this new engine, but that the community adapts quickly ... I see that the only good excuse for the improvements are so scarce, maybe it's because the classic Warcraft has a very complete WorldEditor even for today's games. But that does not exempt Blizzard from reinventing itself even more to the resources of its Editor, it still seems to be just a big patch only ...
     
  10. Storm Knight

    Storm Knight

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    Since i enjoy your comical commentary i'll continue with my comical responses.

    That's your taste! all right... at least there are hundreds of different games with aww inspiring realistic graphics with cutting edge tech. you should question the lack of compatibility with Reforged as a game compared to Vanilla Warcraft 3. and to broader Blizzard art.

    But you know that there are others who think differently and the realistic reinvention work with Reforged was an abject betrayal that ditched already interested people for little to no reason. now those people are left with nothing and importing other HD material from other areas is hardly any option because hardly anyone has the skill to do it and it will make map sizes go above the 255 limit. and maps above 120 MB already struggle with performance issues in multiplayer.

    What's wrong with preserving existing trends especially when they are good ? and doubly especially when its happening to an existing product instead of a sequel ? x) they created a different art style on their own, even if it meant ditching and risking their existing fanbase and most certainly because there was hardly any direction that was given to the art. since main art leader left halfway through and second one was not as experienced. The old generation has nothing in terms of HD models. non of it is hardly of any use. since no one knows how to "rip" them and the ones that exist can pile up map sizes to unreasonable levels. What sense does it make for Reforged going for a new style when they aren't even working on a new game. or new sequel. only deciding for some random reason that it is okay to trash and shit no what existed before and make 180* turn and utterly betray existing visual concepts.

    I agree that there was severe increase in model detail and polygon numbers, i'm sure Lemonsky artists were also very talented in their work since they proved it time and time again. but to defend the models that were somehow piss poor, it is lack of common sense. it is not a question of it being good, but a matter of it being a remaster of an existing game with a pre established artistic goal. and the fact that Warcraft 3 is an RTS game. Reforged models are made for RPGs. that's why they dont' belong in the game in the first place. let alone the complete betrayal of existing ingame visual concepts.

    To be honest, Blizzard hardly gave little if any attention to the overhaul of this entire project its very self evident. and only falsely advertised something they knew it was wrong in so many ways and they knew they couldn't even keep their promise and used Warcraft 3 Vanillas nostalgia as an excuse to cash in on loyal fans. a pity all the good CEO's and art directors since Starcraft 1 left so Reforged got the wrong end of the stick.

    Because if it were to simply to a standard Remaster following the games art style closely it would have been just as successful as Starcraft 1. the transition of existing map makers work to the new era of higherquality yet faithful visuals would have catapulted the game in a new age of prosperity, not to mention the amount of time that will be saved as people wouldn't have to go dig and see if they can find and how they should rip other models or use mods. And since the visual overhaul would not be as demanding as the current one, the Classic Team would have fared astronomically better in optimizing the game.
    What sense does it make for Reforged to abandon the visuals that carried them for 15 years. and still continuing to do so, no other company is even trying for any sort of "unique" visuals but Blizzard and their franchises have the benefit of years of perfecting existing visuals only to turn their back on it. its like investing your money in a flaming truck that's about to crash.

    Blizzard may do whatever they wish with their product. but they are a privet initiative. they take the risk for a chance at the public to accept them. and they did. they ran with it for 15 years because of the people who supported them, then you defend them because they turn their back on those people.

    Blizzards art has some issues, okay, but who told you everyone loves this realistic generic look of the Reforged models ? there are people that like to see the looks of the old game preserved even if they might not have the most massive of issues with the new looks.

    Its worth remembering that this style only existed in case you didn't know, because during the origin of the game, there was a need to implement these aspects due to the game needing to drastically take a different rout from all the generic visuals of its own time like Lord of the Rings realistic visuals so that they could engender a new and unique visuals, one that stands out from many of the times same old same old concepts. But nowdays, i see no obstacles in trying to preserve the existing experience and i was and still am very displeased with the new models.


    Yes, in the end we will always end up in the same discussion, creating apologies for a factually known mismanaged visual overhaul that people try to defend and say it is only a matter of opinion and that Blizzard knew what they were doing when there is example after example that the project of Reforged was literally anything besides Blizzard knowing what they were doing.

    What matters most would be the Reforged to fix the existing games huge functionality and net code issues instead of trying to push visuals that are too tough to handle for an old engine. but i think that the community will suffer a lot because of the damage that's already done and people like you suggesting even more focus be put on the needless graphical overhaul.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  11. SebioL

    SebioL

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    Sarcasm is very funny, but to convince the contrary that it is the good thing! Nothing ... I am saddened by you, since your crying will not justify Blizzard for being wrong for creating something innovative or forbidding its attempt to remodel the game with new themes! If Reforged is not working, at least you only help to strengthen the certainty that the models are not the real problem of the majority and are by far the main target of criticism of the new warcraft.
    Nobody has the capacity to modify the greatness of Warcraft units ... So you will disregard even the teams of modellers of Ascención HD, Reborn, SonS, remastering of the Chinese and a multitude of others that will emerge mainly for traditional themes,
    they didn't stop doing jobs for the current one just because you think!

    You also do not need to overload the size of your maps to modify everything individually via imports, there will be possibilities for full modification of all models by the root folder in the original. That excuse of yours sounds like a spoiled child. Definitely, new models do not interfere with your historical experience, you have and will still have options for what you always wanted and today Blizzard only gave space to those who also want something different.
     
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Citation needed.
    Currently because we don't have .mpq files anymore, that is pretty much impossible for most people.
    Also, people are reluctant to altering their game files. They prefer maps.
     
  13. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    Models are the direct target of the criticism, Reforged does not do anything else other than remaking models, it should do it right it is a 'remaster' not a new game or 'remake', Reforged's promise of remastering graphics is the huge failure specific to Reforged. Other stuff are global fuck ups of patch 1.32 which affects both classic and Reforged.

    The main critic of 'Reforged' will always be graphics as long as they don't remake them.

    Other critics are about patch 1.32 not Reforged.
     
  14. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Exactly. The game should have been stable on release with none of its features missing.
    SebioL wants us to beat a dead horse instead.
     
  15. SebioL

    SebioL

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    deepstrasz,
    Partner, we model lovers ... we need it! Do you think I'm not in the battle for that, pleading with Blizzard to extract the folders? So I said that we can do it, in the near future ... For even if not for Blizzard, but for breakers in the future, inevitably this will be available sooner or later for singleplayer users ... At the very least!
    I am part of a South American group of individual modelers, we have infinite GB's of models for warcraft of every type of game. Modeling and animating all extensions .FBX, Ms3D, DAE, 3DS, SketchUP, .OBJ and etc ... we place orders for free on our social network to animate any polygon of any game for simple models of the classic WC3 to fans.
    youarthas,
    Just what I want you to understand, I think that Reforged is not a bad proposal for just making changes to the models... even if that change is not a unanimously applauded change. Whereas WC3 has always been free to modify. But that it is bad for just redoing the models, as a unique innovation ... Even if the new models for me and many friends, it is a welcome and beneficial change. Did you understand the logic? Considering that if you just accelerate the graphics engine, but do not change the style of the models in relation to all the models that we already know from Blizzard, you do not make innovations in the game engine (example of animation: Stand Hit- it could already exist in Reforged, even if it was just animating, but not changing the gameplay), not adding significant features or any minimal innovation, this will not be a reform in any respect, it will be all the same even more... It would be much worse. There would be nothing to do, just add more refined graphics technology, what would be the most interesting thing about a new reforged wacraft, that also couldn't be done with just a new patch? Regarding the features that Reforged offered? nothing friend.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Ah, so you still want others to do the dirty work.
    Well, know that all that might soon end as Retera's Warmash will overwrite this Reforged impostor.
    You're missing the point. The graphics can still be top notch but keeping the Warcraft style. For modding, it doesn't matter since you'd use your own models anyway. You only need a proper engine upgrade for that.
     
  17. Storm Knight

    Storm Knight

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    So, since i played a little game with you and it worked to prove how you actually behave and how all of your arguments can validly be said in the same way except pointing towards the opposite. i'll now legitimately try and tell how i think about this situation and how i think when you talk to me, and do keep in mind i'm not trying to force down anything on you. this was self evident in my large post titled "My 2 cents on Reforgeds Graphical Overhaul".

    I'll start with mentioning that you should try to improve your English slightly. please. and i'm not trying to pull a "hah i got you" moment here.

    "but to convince the contrary that it is the good thing! Nothing" << This doesn't make sense to me, seriously. i can't understand what are you trying to say here. the only thing i'll say about this is that no one is trying to convince you anything, infact i'm okay with anyone that loves the route in which Reforged has taken for a graphical overhaul its obvious some people are going to like it and its foolish for me to try and convince them otherwise.
    But you are acting exactly how you assume i am, which i'm not. you keep trying to "convince" me that some how i should "accept" this. i'm sorry but the moment you try to force me to accept what you happen to love is where you lose this argument.

    When " I " entered and wrote my big post at first. i did it in the intend of feedback and what i personally thought. and all i got from you is "no you don't deserve anything and you should "Accept" this with open arms because here are some irrelevant things i pointed out". that's you this entire time. telling others to shut up and accept because you completely lack any level of understanding and care of how this situation was first created. and how your solutions are worthless.


    If Blizzard creates art A for Warcraft 3. then decides to remaster it and instead of creating art A 2.0 they create art B. i have every reason to be upset because it affected me and it affected why i got into the game in the first place. the whole point of a remaster is to preserve what existed before and simply transition it into a modern era. instead of dumping it and going for something different. that's something you do with a sequel not a remake. if you even care to try to understand where i'm coming from instead of always trying to push your opinion maybe you can relate.



    I consider hardly any of those traditional themes and none of them are in any stage of completion nor do i want "mods". if you want me to follow your logic then Reforged should go the way i want because for people like you the Quenching mod exists which is trying to be as realistic as the 2018 counterpart. so therefore your entire argument is irrelevant and Blizzard did the right job and made a faithful remaster.
    You see how stupid you sound ?


    Look, for the 100th time, trying to reason "Alternative" options as a solution to a problem i have with the "Main" product is going to sound stupid no matter how many times you keep saying it. I don't consider any of those "Mods" as viable for what " I " was expecting. put me in your shooes for once.

    Blizzard did a faithful remaster. and you wanted realism. so would it sound fair if i told you have no right to complain about the decisions of Blizzard because you have other options for realism ? no.

    And you seem to have a hard time trying accept the fact that Blizzard created something completely different. and you also seem to think for some reason a regular player that has problems with this should shut up and accept it because there are Mods. and Blizzard did a new take that you happened to love.

    Your arguments do not sound like arguments anymore, they only sound like you trying to push and brush aside everything and everyone that happens to disagree with the visual overhaul of the game. you are so insecure about it when in reality what's done is already done. there are people like me providing critique and Blizzard is never going to take what's already given away from you. but no you still feel the need to come here, insult the visuals of a game that people enjoyed for 18 years and claim that Blizzard knew what they were doing and we should all accept it. and use Mods if we don't like it.

    I'll repeat myself with this issue one last time. The reason you got Warcraft 3 Reforged with whatever visuals it has now, is because from the start the company decided to spend the budget they were willing to spare for the project on overtly ambitious visuals instead of the functionality and integrity of the game we all love so much. had Blizzard taken an example from Sc1 or Age of Empires 2 or C&C Remastered. they would have done a very standard remaster of visuals and spent the rest of their time, budget and effort on delivering a quality product to the consumers.

    But that's what a "The best possible outcome" its not the reality. the reality is what we have now. and nobody knows what Blizzard is going to do. Reforged is Realistic. and you love it. and that's great. you should continue loving it. and stop trying to fight with others who comment on their distaste towards the results because ultimately none of the people who critique are going to come and replace or somehow take away what's already done.

    The method in which you are arguing is only viable if Reforged was still taking feedback as to where to take the art. and not people raising distaste towards what's already done. and is never going to be undone.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  18. SebioL

    SebioL

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    You have a hard time understanding things friend.
    I am not asking you if the models that exist are the best or if they are the worst to make an evaluation of the inserted proposal. I don't want other people to do dirty work.
    I want this possibility to be released, because it must be released. This must be available. I bought the game and not the real and unique image of the game, I must be free to modify them at the root even if it is for personal use. This block is even a steal, because you would be stating that I bought an artificial image, not available for full modification by myself, since I already bought this image to do what I should do and how I want.

    As for the graphic aspects of models, I will not return to the subject ...There have been many debates about this already.

    Cavaleiro da tempestade,
    I think that sometimes I am too verbose, I can be misinterpreted. I'm sorry if I wanted to make it clear that you have to agree that the models are better and that your defense against the old ones is inadequate.
    I am Brazilian, I do not speak English, the forum is private, there are rules to be respected, so I am obliged to work in your language.
    But I do not intend to change opinions at all, and that is exactly what I do not want in relation to those who defend the new proposal of models offered in Reforged.
    What I try to convey is that despite finding a good idea or that I and many friends of mine are pleased, the models are nowhere near the main change that Reforged needed, besides the new graphic mechanics inserted, I don't see anything relevant that any patch in the 2002 game couldn't do.
    Only the models, there seems to be some artist who did a dedicated job on everything and worked hard to achieve this new aesthetic. In fact, it won't please everyone, but it changed something that was different, just in relation to changes in the graphics engine.

    You are right to state that there are losses due to the lack of a commitment to the traditional theme, I just stated that you have additional options for this (although the MPQ functionality does not yet exist for major modifications). As well as I understand the frustration that you must go through in maybe you cannot have the same pleasant feeling that I have in having the new models, which for you the work could be spent to make something even more attractive than the current HOTS within all classic patterns.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Wrong. You are sharing a license, nothing more. You do not own the game once you buy it. You are not allowed to modify it, in reality. If they are closing their eyes to it because the community helps advertise and keep the game alive further, that's another thing.
    What you do in private is also quite irrelevant since we are talking about being an open community sharing time with the game. It's not about going underground, or on the black market.
    !? This has nothing to do with the brute comparison between the old models and the new ones. We're talking about a proper remaster considering the graphics of today. And overall, the artistic style which is not Warcraft, it's a kitsch.
    Well then, why do you think that only we are misunderstanding you and not the other way around?
     
  20. SebioL

    SebioL

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    As for the licenses, I may be wrong because I didn't waste time reading the Reforged contract. I know there was a lot of limitation by Blizzard, especially because it is after financial resources and wants to repress new users who can take advantage of it.
    but in my opinion, i think i bought the game in full, i must have freedom and access to all root files to fully modify its base. Not only having a limited import feature to an extremely smaller size compared to the total base loaded by the game.
    It must not be easy to have to deal with something different. I understand that for me it is beneficial and well regarded.
    I do not deny the frustration that you must go through for not having news that follow the old standards. You can actually deny the new proposal. But at least you know the graphic designer you were buying before launching. Since we are going to judge here what is within the legality.
    Understanding of interpretations there will be flaws for both situations, it is evident, after all, I may also not be getting the proper translation from the converter.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020