Ukraine Conflict

[bowser499]

I'm happy with Ukraine in EU.
Yes, I am Ukrainian.

 

[The Leader]

Bad news... Crimea was annexed by Russia.
Territories that can become part of Russia.(Marked with red)

[1] - Transnistria (Part of Republic of Moldova)
[2] - Moldova

 

[Mechanical Man]

Bad news... Crimea was annexed by Russia.
Territories that can become part of Russia.(Marked with red)

[1] - Transnistria (Part of Republic of Moldova)
[2] - Moldova

That would be the most fair. Transinistria to Russia/Ukraine whatever, Moldova to Romania and the dispute is settled.

 

[Zombie]

I didn't even say that.


And I didn't say that either.

Besides, YOU brought up that example, not me, so you're pretty much contradicting yourself.

And seriously, you can be glad I didn't take that last sentence personally. Comparing someone (especially a german) to the national socialists will not make you friends with anyone, I'll guarantee that.

You did not directly say that, but unless I really misinterpreted something, it was the conclusion of your line of thought.

Wehrmacht = all 100% bad. That's what you were saying, unless I'm totally mistaken.

Now, I'm not trying to be personal here, but you should seriously stop being so sentimental. I'm not trying to be your friend, I'm trying to get a point across. Being stereotypical is what the nazis were famous for, I simply told you not to be hypocritical by doing the exact same thing. By saying Wehrmacht = Bad, you say something similar to someone saying black people = bad. Both groups of people have some members who commit misdeeds, but you can't say all of them are responsible for the crimes of a few.

Now, one last thing regarding this: I understand that the crimes committed by some members of the Wehrmacht are inexcusable. But not all of them were criminals. Many people who fought for Germany in that time thought that they were doing the right thing. Now they're being disowned by their descendants who think all of them were just murderers and rapists, because a few of them were misbehaving. That is why I try to get this point across, because I do believe that there were good men in the Wehrmacht too and they deserve to be remembered for who they were, not for what organization they belonged to.

And what exactly are the interests it protects? Give me just one example why a national army is important in the modern globalized world!

Vietnam, China, DPRK, Russia, Iran etc. etc. Most of these countries would have been invaded over and over again if it wasn't for the deterrent posed by their own respective national armies.

A country can not simply walk into the territory of another country nowadays. That's not how world politics work anymore.

Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yugoslavia, Kuwait, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah... it does. Except they call it "war on terror" now.

The ukraine conflict shows how its done nowadays: You set the mood via mass media and then gullible people will voluntarily hand over all their belongings to the new dictator.

Yay, the first point I agree with. I find revolutions equally stupid because of this very reason.

There is. It's part of the treaty. The nato is FORCED to act if a member country is threatened. Do your researches before stating something like that.
And believe it or not, the north atlantic pact is not a dictatorship, but a democracy.

I realize it's a democracy, it was my exact point that it works like a democracy too: The strongest party has the biggest voice. Here, the nation with the strongest military has the biggest voice. My problem with this is that since little to no invasions happen on the soils on NATO countries (since the NATO acts like a deterrent too, and that's the only good thing about it really), the NATO is essentially used for the war-mongering of its bigger nations.

You say you care about your Bundeswehr comrades?

Then check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Armed_Forces_casualties_in_Afghanistan

Now tell me, what the hell does Germany have to do with Afghanistan? Why did all these good people need to die, far away from their home in a war they had nothing to do with? Just because they were in some treaty. They gave their lives for something their country gained basically nothing of.


Now, one last thing:

I think we've been derailing this topic for long enough and we should stop, since the Ukraine events continue flowing. I suggest replying in a PM or a VM if you intend to keep up this conversation. But this is the final post I make in this thread regarding the subject.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Now, one last thing regarding this: I understand that the crimes committed by some members of the Wehrmacht are inexcusable. But not all of them were criminals. Many people who fought for Germany in that time thought that they were doing the right thing. Now they're being disowned by their descendants who think all of them were just murderers and rapists, because a few of them were misbehaving. That is why I try to get this point across, because I do believe that there were good men in the Wehrmacht too and they deserve to be remembered for who they were, not for what organization they belonged to.

I never said *anything* about the people in the Wehrmacht, only that it is an example of "mental shaping" gone wrong. It was just you who interpreted all that bullshit into what I said.

Vietnam, China, DPRK, Russia, Iran etc. etc. Most of these countries would have been invaded over and over again if it wasn't for the deterrent posed by their own respective national armies.

Most of those countries are either a dictatorship OR in an unstable political situation (let's just call it war) with a dictatorship. And dictators aren't particulary known for wanting the best for their people.

Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yugoslavia, Kuwait, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah... it does. Except they call it "war on terror" now.

Again, all of those countries couldn't be farther away from democracy.

Yay, the first point I agree with. I find revolutions equally stupid because of this very reason.

Revolutions aren't stupid, they are neccessary in most cases. It's just that people tend to move over to extremes when it succeeds. The transitioning phase is the most dangerous for any revolutionary country.
Russia abusing the situation to its own advantage is another story.

I realize it's a democracy, it was my exact point that it works like a democracy too: The strongest party has the biggest voice. Here, the nation with the strongest military has the biggest voice. My problem with this is that since little to no invasions happen on the soils on NATO countries (since the NATO acts like a deterrent too, and that's the only good thing about it really), the NATO is essentially used for the war-mongering of its bigger nations.

No it's not. It is what it is. Most of the war-mongering is not done by the NATO, but by certain individual members outside of the NATO pact.

Now tell me, what the hell does Germany have to do with Afghanistan? Why did all these good people need to die, far away from their home in a war they had nothing to do with? Just because they were in some treaty. They gave their lives for something their country gained basically nothing of.

The Afghanistan war was a neccessity to stabilize the country. Germany is particulary involved in training and teaching the civil police and ensuring democratic votes. Afghanistan is and never was war-mongering.
Most of the inhabitants of Afghanistan actually appreciate the UN and NATO forces - which isn't a surprise considering the country was basicly devestated by the taliban dictatorship.

And besides, you're contradicting yourself *again*. First you say that the NATO only acts for the sake of it's biggest members and then you give an example of a big (read: politically influencial) country that is *forced* to act because the NATO treaty despite it's own beliefs?! That doesn't make any sense!

I think we've been derailing this topic for long enough and we should stop, since the Ukraine events continue flowing. I suggest replying in a PM or a VM if you intend to keep up this conversation. But this is the final post I make in this thread regarding the subject.

I'm fine with that.

 

[The Leader]

I think that Ukraine and Moldova need to join EU and NATO faster.We need to stop Russia NOW( I mean Putin).

(No offense about regions that I mentioned in map information,but these territories were romanian. Look here to know, what I'm talking about : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova)

New map:
Second map:

 

[Mechanical Man]

I think that Ukraine and Moldova need to join EU and NATO faster.We need to stop Russia NOW( I mean Putin).

(No offense about regions that I mentioned in map information,but these territories were romanian. Look here to know, what I'm talking about : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova)

New map:
Second map:

Join Romania and you will join NATO nad EU, if you really want that so much. If Transnistria wants to leave, it will be even easier.

 

[The Leader]

Join Romania and you will join NATO nad EU, if you really want that so much. If Transnistria wants to leave, it will be even easier.

I'm agree with you and I thought about this,we need to be together with Romania.

But Transnistria is our territory,part of Republic of Moldova.
This romanian territory was, is and will be our ( part of Moldova or maybe Romania)

''On May 23, 1991, the Moldovan parliament changed the name of the republic from "Moldavian SSR" to "Republic of Moldova". Moldova then seceded from the USSR and became a sovereign, independent state on August 27, 1991, after the failed coup in the Soviet Union. Independence was quickly followed by civil war in the east of the country (Transnistria), where the central government in Chişinău battled with separatists, who were supported by pro-Soviet forces and by different forces from Russia. The conflict left the breakaway regime (Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic) in control of Transnistria.''

So Transnistria is romanian territory.

Look at this map and you will understand what I mean:

Moldova is part of Romania

 

[ManYouAreEvil]

Pro-Russian in this case. Hope Crimea, even whole Ukraine, could just join Russia and stop this nonsense.

 

[WaerercraftKillers]

There not tanks they are Apc's :0

 

[The Leader]

Pro-Russian in this case. Hope Crimea, even whole Ukraine, could just join Russia and stop this nonsense.

What I explained about Transnistria is not nonsense
I just explained to Mechanical Man that Transnistria is part of Moldova and was and will be

 

[Mechanical Man]

What I explained about Transnistria is not nonsense
I just explained to Mechanical Man that Transnistria is part of Moldova and was and will be

I doubt anything can be done. Transnistria it's a dump for Russian/Ukrainian rich men and it will be hard to do any moves with them. For example, football club Sheriff Tiraspol it's owned by some miliionaire, hence why it stands out. It is defacto independent and have their own currency and laws. Only without Transinistria Moldova can join EU, Romania or whatever.

But I can see how will this feed certain politicians who fed on conflicts and unresolved situation. Belkovsky plan looks the most fair so far.

 

[The Leader]

I doubt anything can be done. Transnistria it's a dump for Russian/Ukrainian rich men and it will be hard to do any moves with them. For example, football club Sheriff Tiraspol it's owned by some miliionaire, hence why it stands out. It is defacto independent and have their own currency and laws. Only without Transinistria Moldova can join EU, Romania or whatever.

But I can see how will this feed certain politicians who fed on conflicts and unresolved situation. Belkovsky plan looks the most fair so far.

Ok,I understand but we can't leave our ancestors territory.
I'll create a new thread about Transnistria and Moldova and we'll discuss about this.

 

[ManYouAreEvil]

What I explained about Transnistria is not nonsense
I just explained to Mechanical Man that Transnistria is part of Moldova and was and will be

I have no interest or even value historical boundaries or territories.

 

[Zombie]

At least something good came out of the Ukraine trouble:

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/natalia-poklonskaya

 

[ManYouAreEvil]

She's supercute. I'd start a conflict for her.

 

[Razosh]

Putin is most likely only trying to increase his fame so he can get reelected as president of Russia. The question is if he's just testing the water or if this is his stop.

But Natalia must be really surprised over her new international fame.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Crimea (military base), Doneck, Harkiv (industry and resources center) are only concerns. Claims about Kiev and even Lvov are just idiotic and just exaggerations in the media. Even Odessa isn't that important.

Oh well, I wish luck in european Ukraine with halved pensions and other social services like education, healthcare, ... Like 60€ of pensions... in my country it's the average daily pay and it even doesn't have that much of a standard. Now even countries which are made fun of like Romania and Bulgaria will be promised land for Ukrainians.

 

[DrarenThiralas]

I'm so glad the historical discussion is over.

 

[Mechanical Man]

What historical discussion?

 

[DrarenThiralas]

The one about "Effective armies"

 

[Zombie]

And as a result, the thread died.

We're so lucky, yay.

 

[Rui]

I didn't mind your discussion at all. It was/is interesting. Maybe a bit off-topic, but I'd rather have it continue so long as you guys don't resort to personal attacks.

 

[DrarenThiralas]

But it was kinda boring and hard to understand. Now, anypony wants to continue the discussion that actually was the main theme of the thread?

 

[Krolan]

Well, I noticed that many people, especially russian ones, just point with their (middle-)finger to Putin. For me it's as simple as: 8 Years hating bush, and only bush, now 8 Years of hating Putin, only Putin. I mean it, I had a discussion with some russian who is on ukraines side. They totally believe that it's just this ONE man and if he wasn't everything would be alright.

I had a hard time not to go into rage about how stupid it is to assume that ONE person only wants things to be this way. They just always say "It's just because Putin wanted to get in to the historybooks. He wants to be known as the guy who brought back the communistic Russia."

In my opinion the media about it, Internet and Television, is designed for people just to see that one bad guy, point their finger at them, feel good about themselves because they think they take a stand and continue to do nothing about it.

One even said. "Just shoot him already, somebody" as if that would seize the Problem.

 

[DrarenThiralas]

Well, I noticed that many people, especially russian ones, just point with their (middle-)finger to Putin. For me it's as simple as: 8 Years hating bush, and only bush, now 8 Years of hating Putin, only Putin. I mean it, I had a discussion with some russian who is on ukraines side. They totally believe that it's just this ONE man and if he wasn't everything would be alright.

I had a hard time not to go into rage about how stupid it is to assume that ONE person only wants things to be this way. They just always say "It's just because Putin wanted to get in to the historybooks. He wants to be known as the guy who brought back the communistic Russia."

In my opinion the media about it, Internet and Television, is designed for people just to see that one bad guy, point their finger at them, feel good about themselves because they think they take a stand and continue to do nothing about it.

One even said. "Just shoot him already, somebody" as if that would seize the Problem.

"Because the second you give evil a face, a Bin Laden, a Gaddafi, The Mandarin, you hand the people a target." Iron Man 3

 

[Heinvers]

"because the second you give evil a face, a bin laden, a gaddafi, the mandarin, you hand the people a target." iron man 3

wut?

 

[DrarenThiralas]

wut?

Isn't that a fitting quote?

 

[Zombie]

 

[Callahan]

Lol @ people who think Putin is a commie.I bet they also think Syria and Iran are evil.
Go ask a russian oligarch about collectivization in russia.

 

[Mechanical Man]

This is because you do not know what is actually communism. Economic and political system does not matter at all, as long you are antiamerican. Examples of communist countries include: Serbia, Russia, Belarus, China, North Korea, Thailand, Burma, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq (under Saddam) Syria, Lebanon, Libya (under Ghadaffi), Somalia, Uganda, Nicaragua, Panama, Venezuela, Ecuador, ...

 

[Mechanical Man]

No, that was too far in the past. Only after WW2 counts.

 

[Death Adder]

It also helps men build a manly character more so than anything, which would be needed for an ever increasing portion of our generation of geeks, whiners and metrosexuals.

This is what we need:

Economic and political system does not matter at all, as long you are antiamerican.

rofl, my sides are hurting