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There shouldn't be "equality" in police and military

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by Amigoltu, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. Amigoltu

    Amigoltu

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    Consider the videos below: (Note that there are MANY more examples)






    In all these videos, the women fail to restrain a suspect simply because those women aren't capable of physically overpowering a grown man. In the first video, this causes an innocent bystander to get shot. And there are more videos floating around of police officers, who had to use guns because they weren't able to physically restrain a suspect.

    And yet, despite the numerous videos featuring such situations, so many people in online and real life spheres STILL go "wE neeD rEpreSenTation!" like a sheep. How many cases like these do we need before people get it through their skulls, that maybe, just maybe... We should have people best equipped for the job.

    And don't get me wrong - I DO realize that there are also men, who are rather small in stature, and weak. Which is why, as I said in the title, there shouldn't be "equality" in armed forces - if somebody doesn't pass the tests, they are out. Standards shouldn't be lowered for anyone. However, it is a fact that on average, men are larger, stronger, and better equipped for fighting.
    New Army Combat Fitness Test: 84% of Women Fail - CMR

    As below links prove further, by showing that women get injured more during training
    Risk factors for training injuries among British Army recruits - PubMed
    BBC News | HEALTH | Army training 'too tough for women'
    BBC News | Health | Basic training floors female army recruits
    (The BBC links aren't fake, they are just old: Changing face of the BBC News website)

    But this is not just about the physical strength and endurance. It's also about human nature and psychology. For example, below links show, that unintended pregnancies are more likely in military (comparing percentage of population), than non-military. Yes, you heard this right.
    Unintended pregnancy among active-duty women in the United States military, 2011 - PubMed
    (Also the pinned pdf file)

    Also, let's not forget this:
    Sexual harassment in the military - Wikipedia

    Lastly, if you can ignore the snarky tone of the article, this also contains some useful links and quotes for information on this topic:
    Putting Women in Combat -- Ineffective, Terrible Idea | [site:name] | National Review
     

    Attached Files:

  2. tulee

    tulee

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    Doesn't seem fair to just be looking at their performance in violent situations.

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/252963.pdf

    That article discusses how police women defuse more violent situations than men before they even escalate to the point of violence, how there are higher % of reportings of crimes against women when there are higher % of women int he police force, etc.

    It also notes how there are many barriers to women getting into the policeforce in the first place, so them trying to achieve equality might just be them rectifying an issue that has slowly built up over time since old days when police was just a man's profession.
     
  3. Amigoltu

    Amigoltu

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    And what happens when a situation cannot be de-escalated? All the 3 videos I've shown, they failed to do their duty. One even got a bystander injured as a consequence, and the cop herself almost died. And, as I said before, these are just a few examples. There are lots of videos like that.

    A police officer HAS to be ready for the situation that cannot be de-escalated, and physical struggle takes place. And most women aren't capable of dealing with such situations.
     
  4. Footman16

    Footman16

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    Implying all men are capable of handling these situations. Wouldnt you agree thats wrong?
     
  5. Amigoltu

    Amigoltu

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    I addressed this in my post:
     
  6. Footman16

    Footman16

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    Yeah exactly so gender isnt the issue here.
     
  7. FeelsGoodMan

    FeelsGoodMan

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    Having "equality" in any job is useless, hail meritocracy where the best suited person gets the job.
     
  8. Footman16

    Footman16

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    By increasing equality you get closer to a meritocracy.
     
  9. FeelsGoodMan

    FeelsGoodMan

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    Depends if you're talking about equality of outcome or equality of opportunity.
     
  10. Footman16

    Footman16

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    I think entrance into the police/military is very much a case of equality of opportunity.
     
  11. FeelsGoodMan

    FeelsGoodMan

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    The people best suited for being regular police officers surely aren't women, generally speaking. So in a meritocracy where there's equality of opportunity women wouldn't get hired as police officers that deals with violent criminals due to their physical inferiority, simply because there are better suited people to fill the positions.
     
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    The discussion is about law enforcement and state defense not about diplomacy and psycho therapy.
    One of the barriers being their innateness not helping them in all that's needed to be passed.


    Not alone but it's the wider factor as shown in the studies.
    Sure, buff women with steroids and stuff, they might get a much better chance at being men.


    Natural meritocracy.
     
  13. Footman16

    Footman16

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    If the police's role was solely taking down large violent individuals, which its not. In a meritocracy all positions are open to everyone in order that they prove themselves or their merit. A woman cant prove her merit if shes never given the chance.

    "Regular" officers generally deal with small minor offenses chasing after petty criminals or investigating larger crimes as part of a team or partnership. In all these situations a woman is no less capable than a man.

    Tell me what happens in the instance a woman needs to be searched/patted down would you rather a man do it or a woman?

    We already had the situation where only men could be police officers in history and it was not ideal. From history we know having women police officers is better and does not detract from the police forces capabilities or duties.
     
  14. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    The point is that women shouldn't be in all police and military departments if they cannot pass the physical fitness exams (no, not the dumb down ones).
    If they cannot perform well on the field, they shouldn't be there.
    In the second video Amigoltu posted, you can see a tall strong man which had been a problem for two fit men to arrest, even more so for two little women.
    But what if that man is gay and is being searched or searches a man? How about a lesbian searching a woman or being searched by a woman?
    Or what if a woman searches a man? I'm pretty sure this last one won't be considered sexual assault. Always the victim card...
    So, you're saying you specifically need women to search women and men to search other men.
    How is it better?
    How is it worse?
    I'd like to imagine how the Greeks would have won against the Persians if they had women in the military back then.
     
  15. FeelsGoodMan

    FeelsGoodMan

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    I know, which is why I said they shouldn't be hired as officers who deals with violent criminals but rather other departments as @deepstrasz pointed out.
    Yeah all positions are open for everyone to apply to, that doesn't mean everyone will get them. If no men applied for these positions then women would be hired since they are the best options they have. Fortunately for society men are the ones who send the majority of the applications.
    Because an employer doesn't gamble on hiring women that "can" be a better fit when the biological evidence points in favor of men.
    Sure if they're investigating larger crimes as part of an investigation unit they're not normal police officers anymore and doesn't fall under the category we are talking about. If they're chasing after people for petty crimes they will have a harder time chasing after the criminals since they run slower.
    The sex of the person who pats you down shouldn't be a problem as long as the person who does it is focused on his job, not on sexual harassment. Your safety and the safety of the ones around you shouldn't be jeopardized because someone feels uncomfortable being patted down by a guy.
    Do you have any sources or analytical data to support this claim? Speaking only about the departments of the police who is on the ground of course.
     
  16. Footman16

    Footman16

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    Which had been a problem for two fit men to arrest. So again i need to point out that gender isnt the issue here if even male officers have difficulty subduing these people.

    Generally speaking for a myriad of reasons people are more comfortable with that so yes and if the public prefer something its generally best to go along with it. Helps to avoid the numerous sexual assaults on women conducted by male TSA officers.

    As tulee pointed out female police officers are much better at defusing situations before they get violent. Sexual violence was rampant in the police force before femal police officers. As for your random last sentence youd need to be more specific there were multiple wars and battles between the Greeks and the Persians.

    You do realise there are only really 3 kinds of police? Beat cops, detectives and SWAT all three of which can run into violent criminals?

     
  17. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I like it how you twist things.
    Generally, men are tougher than women. That is the point. Sex has to do with it, quite a lot.
    More men on the force than women->higher chances for such things as in that video not to happen.
    Yeah, of course because criminals care about political correctness and will stand still until you bring a same sex person to search them. Sure, in airports this might work because things are ready to go but in missions, things don't always go as planned.
    It's not random at all. It pretty much covers all wars. Imagine the Greeks sending women against Persian men. I wonder who'd win. Oh, but you're gonna say, those women will be so smart that their hand to hand combat strength won't even matter and will eventually win. But I was thinking of one of the most spectacular battles, that of Leonidas.
    You're saying men were harassed by other men before women came on the force? So, you're saying that it doesn't matter that women are now in too, because the percentages of sexual harassment is the same?
    Give more detail man on what you're writing. It's so vague...
    Female defusing violent situations doesn't help out with the real criminals or people like those in the video. Those don't give any alphabet letters on how diplomatic women or anyone is.
    No my friend. Women don't need to be on the field. They can do desk jobs, investigate, take care of logistics etc.

    So, as those articles pointed out, women just cannot compete with men in a satisfying percentage and that's hurting mission achievement efficiency.
    Second, I wouldn't want our women battered on the streets by any types of individuals. I'd rather have them safe especially if they have children. Men are less reliable when it comes to proper parenting.
     
  18. FeelsGoodMan

    FeelsGoodMan

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    Depends what country you're basing it on. Many police has a lot more than just that. You have traffic police, you have the ones who works in the office with forensic work and so on. There are many departments, at least in the countries I have lived in.
    Well you don't have to take mine or anyone elses word for it. The police who seem to think women are fit for the job have made an evaluation. If their physical and mental evaluation is right or wrong can be up for debate, and there are of course exceptions to the rule where some women who have extremely good physique and/or combat training would be a better fit than most men. In pretty much every country on planet earth men are the majority of police officers, so listen to them instead of "some people on the internet who are not police".
    Individual merit? There are certain universal requirements that needs to be met for both men and women. Some of those requirements are easier for men to fulfill.
    The evidence is physical inferiority.
    As you said the world isn't perfect, but we shouldn't start sending women to the front lines for the sole purpose of patting people down without the risk of sexual harassment.
    No rush.
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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  20. maddeem

    maddeem

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    Speaking from first hand knowledge and experience in the USA:

    As of right now like you said, there is not equality in police hiring standards, but equity (with some exceptions)

    Re: Women and PAT (physical agility test)
    They get a lighter body drag requirement, longer run times, less reps for pull-ups, sit-ups and push-ups.

    There is hushed discriminatory hiring (soon to be out in the open, due to a upcoming repeal of certain civil rights laws). For example, a white male is the least likely to chosen from a group of candidates. A multicultural LGBTQ (female looking) is most likely.

    If you have ever been in a fight (especially for your life), you'll know you do not want a 5' 100 lbs female to be your only backup (you're essentially on your own, and they introduce new weapons to the fight which can be taken and used against you + them)

    It sucks and it makes the work place less safe for EVERYONE. Including the public.