The Tower of Balzaphon v 2.03

[WolfFarkas]

Reserved

Any comment, feedback, sugestion, critic will be welcome.

Status: none

v 2.03

 

[Paillan]

Is this for the melee contest?

 

[WolfFarkas]

Is this for the melee contest?

No, just a normal upload

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Couple of suggestions:
- Look into how blizzard's maps and see how they do item drops. I don't have energy to go over every single one, but they need rework
- Make sure there are no gaps between trees so smaller units can't hide between them
- Needs more trees in the starting areas
- I doubt players will be expanding much in this map given how easy and quick it is to rush the enemy. Try working around that so that the right side of the map isn't useless

 

[WolfFarkas]

Couple of suggestions:
- Look into how blizzard's maps and see how they do item drops. I don't have energy to go over every single one, but they need rework
I will look it, I was guiding myself by creeps level
- Make sure there are no gaps between trees so smaller units can't hide between them
got it
- Needs more trees in the starting areas
got it
- I doubt players will be expanding much in this map given how easy and quick it is to rush the enemy. Try working around that so that the right side of the map isn't useless
I got an idea to fix that, I will change gates position so the right side will be more use, and rush will be for that part using the gates

noted

 

[deepstrasz]

Please when naming the file, write the number of players between brackets, eg: (2)MapName.w3x

Maybe not use FX/doodads which look like Crypt Fiend attack projectiles. Same with Banish, Mana Drain, Death Coil. I suggest finding custom FX on the site or on the net instead or at least changing their colour significantly.
Terrain is pretty much flat.
The first neutral camp to be engaged is too close to the player's base and the neutrals may come to attack buildings. Not only that but engaging said camp might attract those from the Mercenary Camp.
There is indeed lack of trees. I suggest surrounding the nearest Gold Mine, which is between the two players, with trees (fill that place till the Gold Mine touches with the trees). That way, there'll be enough trees and would make the map's strategy even more interesting. It will also kill annoying and lame rush games.

Awaiting Update.

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[deepstrasz]

Changes made,

Approved.

 

[twojstaryjakcie]

I don't like the fact that you cannot harass your opponent in earlier stages of the game due to all the ghosts in the middle - this lets Night Elf and Human palyers farm without any issues while Undead cannot put the pressure on them. Orc can still harass with their Blademaster, but playing Far Seer is no longer viable. I think the Ghosts should be removed as they discourage players from early fights, limit the number of strategies available and give certain races an advantage. Btw, if you really want them to stay, at least change their Aqcuisition Range to 200 so that a palyer can harass with their hero while the army will still be attacked.


Next thing is that some doodads on the map seem incredibly random, especially the ones around the Goblin Merchant. A Ziggurat? Ok. But then a barrel, a stone chair and an OBSERVATORY??? What is this??? These types of doodads don't go well together as the aesthetics of scale are distorted -> the Ziggurat (a place where multiple bear-sized spiders live) is the size of the chair which is THREE TIMES THE SIZE of the door to the Observatory. I know that sometimes certain units are sometimes bigger than they should be (Raiders on wolves are smaller than dwarfs, for example, BUT since the whole model is bigger then other units, it doesn't feel so out of place), but this is way too apparent and unnecessary to keep. There are a lot of doodads which you could use instead.


You had a nice idea with the shadows lurking in the darkness; nice easter egg, but it can't be really seen in game, not that it really matters.


Also, I think that adding and additional path to your opponent would help make the map more interesting and allow for more strategies, since right now, the map feels very clunky and crowded due to having only one pathway to your opponent + the Waygates, which also aren't due to the creep camps which guard them. Clearing the paths shown in the picture would make it possible to attack your opponent early without having to fight the ghosts or battle golems, but it would take a bit more time to get to the enemy, which seems fair.


As of right now, I don't find the map too fun to play due to the flaws I mentioned, but it can be quite easily fixed.

 

[WolfFarkas]

my anwsers are in color

I don't like the fact that you cannot harass your opponent in earlier stages of the game due to all the ghosts in the middle - this lets Night Elf and Human palyers farm without any issues while Undead cannot put the pressure on them. Orc can still harass with their Blademaster, but playing Far Seer is no longer viable. I think the Ghosts should be removed as they discourage players from early fights, limit the number of strategies available and give certain races an advantage. Btw, if you really want them to stay, at least change their Aqcuisition Range to 200 so that a palyer can harass with their hero while the army will still be attacked.
View attachment 283952
you can use the gates defended by green creeps, you can take both if the other is really slow, again is to avoid militia rush, where peons can reach enemy base with militia form and serius damage, not fair at all, so I will let it be as it is, is the cost of a 64x64 melee map

Next thing is that some doodads on the map seem incredibly random, especially the ones around the Goblin Merchant. A Ziggurat? Ok. But then a barrel, a stone chair and an OBSERVATORY??? What is this??? These types of doodads don't go well together as the aesthetics of scale are distorted -> the Ziggurat (a place where multiple bear-sized spiders live) is the size of the chair which is THREE TIMES THE SIZE of the door to the Observatory. I know that sometimes certain units are sometimes bigger than they should be (Raiders on wolves are smaller than dwarfs, for example, BUT since the whole model is bigger then other units, it doesn't feel so out of place), but this is way too apparent and unnecessary to keep. There are a lot of doodads which you could use instead.
View attachment 283953
1) Did you read the fictional history????, yes that observatory with blue color represents the Tower of Balzaphon,
2) the zigurat, is an undead place, I wanted tu put the undead zigurat but is not allowed to use melee units as doodads, so I put the nerubian zigurat, since nerubians are under Arthas control and. is an undead zigurat.
3) a barrel is a barrel, barrels, boxes, there are barrels in undead places too. If you are going to question me because a barrel, and I have to respond because a barrel.... common mate give me a break, is just a barrel, it can be anywhere.
4)The throne chair, has history, there I put the lich Balzaphon, it was the chair of Balzaphon, but I removed him so now I see it lost its logic. But still in a tower there can be a place to just sit your self, there are stone benchs in Dalaran there are ice thrones in underground theme.
5)About the size of the things, well that depends, there are characters wich are gigants or twice / x3 a men, (wow dungeons, Vyrkul gigant race ) and you say it your self is hard in WC3 the proportion.

I tell you this, in my opinion this doodad review is not that good, (You are the only one complying because a barrel or a size of chair , see others review and it will be hard to find that kind exigent and Perfectionism, I tell you this as friend and in a friendly way, so you can do better reviews in future), in my opinion I think I stated a solid point of view about doodads (is not like I am puting a sunken ruin palm in Northrend).


You had a nice idea with the shadows lurking in the darkness; nice easter egg, but it can't be really seen in game, not that it really matters.
If you notice it is great, if not, dont mind, I removed the easter egg section forever,
View attachment 283954

Also, I think that adding and additional path to your opponent would help make the map more interesting and allow for more strategies, since right now, the map feels very clunky and crowded due to having only one pathway to your opponent + the Waygates, which also aren't due to the creep camps which guard them. Clearing the paths shown in the picture would make it possible to attack your opponent early without having to fight the ghosts or battle golems, but it would take a bit more time to get to the enemy, which seems fair.
View attachment 283955
At the very begining, the red creep goldmine could be used as path , but the mod stated that to avoid early rush, to cover it with wood (and to have more wood). I obbeyed the mod recomendation to get the approve so please dont throw me a recomendation that contradicts the mod recomendation. If the approve of the mod would recommended me to delete the ghost orange creep, I would do it, it is not the case, so I dont want to change things now it is approved.


As of right now, I don't find the map too fun to play due to the flaws I mentioned, but it can be quite easily fixed.

Sorry mate, but the map was already reviewed, modarated and approved, unless the mods gives me a second review to fix somenthing or an user spots a major bug. I would like to keep the map as it is (since this is not a map for a contest, I dont mind to keep it as 3/5 approved and with a not very popular opinion). Minor things or other options / opinions I would consider them for the future but not for this map. I will take note of your comments for the future maps. Thanks for your time, good luck

 

[MysteryMaze]

I went over twojstaryjakcie's comment and I found them to be very convincing. Especially in terms of pathing, no player should be interrupted by creeps, hence blocking the only existing pathway to the enemy looks very weird.

I think you should really listen to what he says as removing creeps takes no longer than 5 mins.

This is as if you're uploading maps just to get an approval from reviewers.

 

[twojstaryjakcie]

@Ragnaros17
Ok, this is my final post on this map with clear explanation of what I exactly mean presented in a picture, since I don't want to rate the map so low, yet I want it to be more flexible.

Gates are an alternative to creeps, they can be destroyed but they don't have to and they complete negate Militia Rush

The second path to your opponent is much longer and Militia Rush isn't possible here either, but it lets you scout your opponent without wasting time on destroying the gates.

It's your map, do what you want with it, but I think these changes would be very beneficial for the gameplay.

 

[WolfFarkas]

moreoldtuff

forgive me , I didnt understand your idea at first, I was thinking you wanted me to clear the left side, the one the mod ordered me to close so thats why I was very mind-closed in that matter

I study your idea,
1) clearing the goldmine is not that problem

I am thinking, about the gates, thats new, well, , I usually avoid gates because AI dont know what to do with them, but in this case AI can use the warp gate and the goldmines path, It is an atractive idea, I like it, never minded jail gates,

I will test it to see how it works

 

[twojstaryjakcie]

@Ragnaros17 By the way, the gate covers the whole ramp in the picture but if you use the regular gate, it won't - you'll have to change its scale to 1.10 or 1.20 in order to leave no gaps.
I'm glad I could be of some use.

 

[WolfFarkas]

did two test and it works, you reach the other base as peons, clever indeed, and I can also add some hit points to the gate,

I will ask the mod opinion, (if he agrees or he doesnt care) I will see it done, thanks again

 

[MysteryMaze]

I am of the belief that enlarging the size of the map is the most viable option as all problems stem from small map size,
but if you don't wanna do that, placing a gate would be the second best alternative.

twojstaryjakcie is providing some good solutions there

 

[WolfFarkas]

I decided to re-make this map in 96x96 so it will have much better gameplay than the old 64x64 map

 

[MysteryMaze]

I decided to re-make this map in 96x96 so it will have much better gameplay than the old 64x64 map

Map is much better now.

I think taverns should be accessed more easily. You could switch them with either merc camps or way gates.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Map is much better now.

I think taverns should be accessed more easily. You could switch them with either merc camps or way gates.

thanks,
noted

I will study the matter, but yeah change it for the merc camps seems to be a good option

 

[MysteryMaze]

thanks,
noted

I will study the matter, but yeah change it for the merc camps seems to be a good option

Ah I forgot to tell you this.

The main has thin tree walls. Since the map size is 84 x 80, it can be extended to 84 x 84 to put more trees.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Ah I forgot to tell you this.

The main has thin tree walls. Since the map size is 84 x 80, it can be extended to 84 x 84 to put more trees.

done, both things.

edit:
Version 2.02
-Loot re adjusted.
-1 goblin market deleted.
- Added 2 orange creeps level 13
-Corner expanding goldmines are more easy to conquer.

 

[Yazid]

just tell me how do u edit the object data without getting it go to the oldest patch ?

 

[WolfFarkas]

just tell me how do u edit the object data without getting it go to the oldest patch ?

Hello there.

1) I not shure about your question. I work with the 1.26 v (since 1.29 was buggy, and 1.30 , I still don´t trust it since I heard of some bugs yet).

2) This is not the place to ask such question. Maybe you should try in the forums.

World Editor Help Zone



see ya

edit: v 2.03, a lot of changes.