The Greek Crisis

[Brambleclaw]

He fears that the Greek households will suffer to much if they change currency, I believe they will survive it if they manage to increase the income of the country. Greece can't afford to go on short-term solutions, long-term is the only answer.

.

Germany 1923-1933
Weinmal republic.

Stressman changed currency, via making all money in the country null and void, while handing 20<Currencyname> To each person. During in the period of transition NOtes stamped by the banks were legal tender till the end of the transition period



The Euro was a joke. Also italy is cannot be compared to France or German
Germany>France>Italy in industry. Germany should have kept its own currency, it is the currently the powerhouse of the Euro. Without Germany, France and Italy and Greece etc would have a worthless currency.

With that said, the Germans probably feel like the British, but while stuck inbetween a rock and a hard place. British feelings are "Why are we bailing out countries that won't effect us" Because if anything happens bad to there economies the Euro drops we get cheap imports and make ourselves rich.

While Germany is more of "Why are we bailing out the whole of Europe, other countries should contribute too. This is mixed with regret of joining the Euro.
The followers of the Euro will be thinking what they can do to fix this and why it happened.

Why it happened is simply because the EU was never meant to be ran as a government. It was mean't to be a free market and only a free market. Pretty much Maragret Thatcher's Idea of the European Union. However Thatchter was an extreme capitalist. However the words are true



Also to the comment about The Allies not winning without the USA involement.

WTF? Are you on about. Derp Hitler offered a peace treaty with Britain twice. First before the war. Secondly after we had one of the biggest failures in history at Dunkirk. I mean come on he gave us a leniant peace treaty which meant we kept ourselves as ourselves. All he asked was for peace and nothing in return. Jesus hitler was that confident that he relaxed production in the Czechslovakian factories. And you say we would of lost without the USA pfft.

Not to mention if the USA wasn't selling german and britain weapons in WW1 that USA would not be an economic power. Nor would it have any effect.

America has and allways will make its money from getting two nations to fight each other. Sell them weapons. Then coming in clearing up the mess and taking the spoils.

Britain Vs Germany. WW1 Britain and Germany owe billions to america. Usa steps in takes information and tech from germany. Then later when Germany can't pay its bills in reparation. USA asks Britain to cut the reperation bill. Britain replies that it will only if the USA cut the Debt they owe them. USA don't cut the Debt. Britain can't in any financial sense cut its reperation bill on germany. Germany turns to Stresseman after multiple fights and 4-5 years of anarachy. After this the economy picks up again. And America invests heavilly in German industry.
1929 Wall street crash.
America asks for its loan back and pronto. (Most of the prominant bankers in America at the time were Jewish, and that was the time of the Honest bankers)

Hitler comes around in 1930+ Pointing out that America has caused the huge debt because they gave loans then asked repayment suddenly. When that was not was originally intended. He points out American Bankers were Jewish. So in a simple irrational step all the problems were by the Bankers. The bankers were jews So Jews are to blame.

So not only has the USA engineered the Downfall of the Weihnmar Republic and Rise of hitler. But they also managed to implement simple irrational justification in germany for mass murder of the jews and holocausts. Most people who at the start when jews were in concentration camps. Saw it as what the Americans or British did so accepted it.

So what happens. Hitler takes power. He sits around a few years offers britain alliance. And begins rearmament. The german army walks into Europe. Britain in no condition to fight and feeling guilty for the reparations and restrictive Dictat of a treaty. Which was actually caused by the French President who wanted such extreme measures. Since loyd george was pragmatic. Anyway so yeh that happens
And guess what Hitler invades poland. 6 years of war follow where only 2 years included the Americans. And 4 years America finacially supported Britain in loans.

Hey look America is instead of intervening like they should first spending 4 years to make huge profits of the current Worlds strongest empire.
Cool so that fair and just.

So Britain from two world wars goes from Economic power state to nothing. And who's to blame.

Now lets read back and think.
All these problems stemmed from Overcaptalist and greedy Americans who want to fill their pockets. To fill these pockets they fed wars caused by misunderstandings with weapons and hatred. So millions died. So america could get rich ?

Not to mention Japan and Germany after WW2 Lost billions of Pounds/Dollars (W/e u wanna call it) in State secrets.

One for example German scientists. Such scientists pioneered alot of the "American Discoveries" and Feets of engineering. Like Germany scientists worked on the A-Bomb and the Spaceships :L.

And now in 2011 they are still doing this on countries like Israel and Palastine and gaining oil. But hey the world lets America stomp around controlling everyone.

Thank god that sensible countries like Pakistan are getting nukes so they can protect themselves. Pakistan and China hit America with the Ultimatum when America was gonna fuel India with weapons to attack the Pakistani's.

Again another example how the US plays of others. But if they do it will cause WW3/ So we can wait and see what they will do. Do they care now that this time their throats are on the line instead of Alien countries miles away from them?

it seems so.




On a side note after Hitler failed and winter ensued in Russia, Russia if regrouped had a high chance of pushing them back and causing a scene like in WW1. Where Germany gets sandwiched and eventually dies

 

[Destroyer25]

With that said, the Germans probably feel like the British, but while stuck inbetween a rock and a hard place. British feelings are "Why are we bailing out countries that won't effect us" Because if anything happens bad to there economies the Euro drops we get cheap imports and make ourselves rich.

Hardly. If the Eurozone collapses then Britain's export economy will be crippled. Not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars British banks have invested in Europe.

Why it happened is simply because the EU was never meant to be ran as a government. It was mean't to be a free market and only a free market. Pretty much Maragret Thatcher's Idea of the European Union. However Thatchter was an extreme capitalist. However the words are true

The EU was intended to be Free Market Capitalist? Jesus Christ, they sure as hell failed pretty badly then. Europe is hardcore Social Democratic-Socialist, almost the complete opposite of Free Market Capitalism.

Also to the comment about The Allies not winning without the USA involement.

WTF? Are you on about. Derp Hitler offered a peace treaty with Britain twice. First before the war. Secondly after we had one of the biggest failures in history at Dunkirk. I mean come on he gave us a leniant peace treaty which meant we kept ourselves as ourselves. All he asked was for peace and nothing in return. Jesus hitler was that confident that he relaxed production in the Czechslovakian factories. And you say we would of lost without the USA pfft.

Hitler offered a peace treaty to Britain before they were even at war? *Scratches head*

And since when is Dunkirk a failure? Dunkirk was an enormous success. They saved over 7x as many men as they thought they would.

Not to mention if the USA wasn't selling german and britain weapons in WW1 that USA would not be an economic power. Nor would it have any effect.

What are you on? USA was trading with the UK plenty during WW1, and it was WW1 that made USA the dominant economic power in the world.

America has and allways will make its money from getting two nations to fight each other. Sell them weapons. Then coming in clearing up the mess and taking the spoils.

BULL SHIT. USA did not sell weapons to both sides during WWI or WWII. They traded with both before hand, but not during. When has the US government ever sold weapons to 2 countries, told them to fight, and then invade them both and take the spoils? When has that ever happened?

Britain Vs Germany. WW1 Britain and Germany owe billions to america. Usa steps in takes information and tech from germany. Then later when Germany can't pay its bills in reparation. USA asks Britain to cut the reperation bill. Britain replies that it will only if the USA cut the Debt they owe them. USA don't cut the Debt. Britain can't in any financial sense cut its reperation bill on germany. Germany turns to Stresseman after multiple fights and 4-5 years of anarachy. After this the economy picks up again. And America invests heavilly in German industry.
1929 Wall street crash.
America asks for its loan back and pronto. (Most of the prominant bankers in America at the time were Jewish, and that was the time of the Honest bankers)

This sounds like BS Nazi Propaganda.

How the debt circle was actually working was USA was lending Germany money, to pay it's reparation payments to the allies who were then paying USA back.

Hitler comes around in 1930+ Pointing out that America has caused the huge debt because they gave loans then asked repayment suddenly. When that was not was originally intended. He points out American Bankers were Jewish. So in a simple irrational step all the problems were by the Bankers. The bankers were jews So Jews are to blame.

And you believe that?

So not only has the USA engineered the Downfall of the Weihnmar Republic and Rise of hitler. But they also managed to implement simple irrational justification in germany for mass murder of the jews and holocausts. Most people who at the start when jews were in concentration camps. Saw it as what the Americans or British did so accepted it.

Bullshit. USA did not purposely do that to Germany. It may have been a bi product but it wasn't their fault.

So what happens. Hitler takes power. He sits around a few years offers britain alliance. And begins rearmament. The german army walks into Europe. Britain in no condition to fight and feeling guilty for the reparations and restrictive Dictat of a treaty. Which was actually caused by the French President who wanted such extreme measures. Since loyd george was pragmatic. Anyway so yeh that happens
And guess what Hitler invades poland. 6 years of war follow where only 2 years included the Americans. And 4 years America finacially supported Britain in loans.

I should remind you that if Neville Chamberlain and the British people not been such peace loving idealists, and instead blockaded Germany when they started violating the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, Hitler would have been stopped. The British army may have been in bad shape but the Royal Navy alone could have ended Germany by blockading them in 1936.

And USA was in WW2 for nearly 4 years, and had been giving Britain financial support since Day 1. You really need to learn your history better. Without Lend Lease Britain would have been unable to achieve jack shit in WWII.

Hey look America is instead of intervening like they should first spending 4 years to make huge profits of the current Worlds strongest empire.
Cool so that fair and just.

Actually USA spent the first 2 years giving Britain plenty of Economic aid but not intervening militarily because the US people had no desire to get involved in a war that had nothing to do with them. Was it USA's job to police the world? No.

Yet now that they try and do so everyone bitches at them. But whenever a conflict arises or the UN needs someone with a real military to help with a peacekeeping mission they look to USA. It's hypocrisy to the max.

So Britain from two world wars goes from Economic power state to nothing. And who's to blame.

Britain really.

In WWI they could have gotten better generals to win the war faster, thus reducing the economic toll.

In WWII they could have blockaded Germany before it even started, thus preventing the conflict.

Now lets read back and think.
All these problems stemmed from Overcaptalist and greedy Americans who want to fill their pockets. To fill these pockets they fed wars caused by misunderstandings with weapons and hatred. So millions died. So america could get rich ?

BS BS BS AND MORE BS. Take your propaganda elsewhere.

Not to mention Japan and Germany after WW2 Lost billions of Pounds/Dollars (W/e u wanna call it) in State secrets.

They tried to conquer the free world, and we're complaining about how the allied powers, including the UK and the USSR, made use of German and Japanese scientists and their work?

One for example German scientists. Such scientists pioneered alot of the "American Discoveries" and Feets of engineering. Like Germany scientists worked on the A-Bomb and the Spaceships :L.

The A-Bomb was worked on by a lot of other people, not Nazis.

And now in 2011 they are still doing this on countries like Israel and Palastine and gaining oil. But hey the world lets America stomp around controlling everyone.

USA doesn't tell Israel what to do. Israel does as it pleases. Nor is America invading people for oil. That's a fallacy spread by the left. Iraq was just Bush being given shitty intelligence and him wanting to prove he could do a better job than daddy. USA gets most of their oil from Canada, and if it weren't for Obama they could be getting 100% of it from us.

Thank god that sensible countries like Pakistan are getting nukes so they can protect themselves. Pakistan and China hit America with the Ultimatum when America was gonna fuel India with weapons to attack the Pakistani's.

Pakistan and China are sensible? Oh my god... Who is teaching you this propaganda?

Again another example how the US plays of others. But if they do it will cause WW3/ So we can wait and see what they will do. Do they care now that this time their throats are on the line instead of Alien countries miles away from them?

it seems so.

Yeah ok, sure.

On a side note after Hitler failed and winter ensued in Russia, Russia if regrouped had a high chance of pushing them back and causing a scene like in WW1. Where Germany gets sandwiched and eventually dies

Russia lost in WW1 lol.

 

[Brambleclaw]

Hardly. If the Eurozone collapses then Britain's export economy will be crippled. Not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars British banks have invested in Europe.

Britain's export economy. You mad? Britain is a service country not an industrial one. It will affect us slightly but thats it. And also since we're an import country instead of export. It will give us cheaper imports which make up for the loss of exports. This will simply balance out ^^. And we already have our own oil. So meh? what could we need to export Herp derp.

Yes they did fail. Since of europe being retarded.
Free market only. Nothing more nothing less.

Hitler offered a peace treaty to Britain before they were even at war? *Scratches head*

And since when is Dunkirk a failure? Dunkirk was an enormous success. They saved over 7x as many men as they thought they would

.
Wow you believe way to much Propoganda. Lol Dunkirk was a huge failure in many respects.
Hitler never ordered the full power of the Wermacht to attack Britain. And DErp that would of wiped our 338 thousand men. He believed one defeat was enough to get Britain to realise they had no chance. So yeh if Hitler wasn't so friendly to us the war would be over. America would be NAZi and we could happy again.

Dunkirk=Thousand of weapons were just abadoned vehicles and Petrol tankards. So yeh britain lost billions worth of Equipment.
More profit for america so yeh i guess it was a sucess in terms of making USA money since BRitain had to then rely on America in long term loans to get anywhere.
However sadly for Britain it was a failure. Since after soldiers returned Hitler could of invaded Britain and took it with ease. He did not do this
and instead let us rebuild an army and a airforce which barely defended us later on.

What are you on? USA was trading with the UK plenty during WW1, and it was WW1 that made USA the dominant economic power in the world.

BULL SHIT. USA did not sell weapons to both sides during WWI or WWII. They traded with both before hand, but not during. When has the US government ever sold weapons to 2 countries, told them to fight, and then invade them both and take the spoils? When has that ever happened?

in WW1 they did sell to both sides

During World War I the United States stayed neutral and sold armaments to both sides of the conflict, aiming to get rich and didn't have the stomach to get involved with what was considered to be an European problem. Even when a German U-boat sank the British liner Lusitania in 1915, with 128 Americans aboard, U.S. President Woodrow Wilson vowed: "America was too proud to fight


By this point Germany and its allies were almost defeated. The United States entered the war at the proverbial last minute and a cease fire was eventually called on November 11th 1918.


After the war was over the USA claimed the victory was their doing, but remained reluctant to be involved in European affairs. The USA did not ratify the Treaty of Versailles, which established the League of Nations in 1919



By 1936 the US had recovered from the Great Depression, but millions still lived in poverty. The outbreak of WWII in 1939 allowed for the US to start building armaments again and making a profit off of war, but again decided to stay neutral in the conflict. Only after the bombing of Pearl Harbour by the Japanese did the United States agree to enter the conflict on December 7th 1941. The war boosted the economy by providing capital investment and jobs, while bringing many women into the labour market. Despite being one of the most expensive wars in American history the United States actually managed to make a profit by turning their economy around and allowed the USA to double their lowest bracket income taxes.


Oh and guess who dropped the Atom bombs and killed millions--Americans derp

This sounds like BS Nazi Propaganda.

How the debt circle was actually working was USA was lending Germany money, to pay it's reparation payments to the allies who were then paying USA back.

No USA Lent money to Germany which used on industry. industry made money which could be used on debts. ALl it did was send germany into greater debt.
Its not BS nazi propoganda its what Hitler did. He played of the idea that since America caused the problem and American Bankers were JEWS. He saw only a simple irrational step from Banker to JEW as the same thing.
And most Germans saw this too.

And you believe that?



Bullshit. USA did not purposely do that to Germany. It may have been a bi product but it wasn't their fault.

Yes they did. IT was their fault. They wanted a quick buck
So they caused a war. Due to bad insight. Either way America is to blame.

I should remind you that if Neville Chamberlain and the British people not been such peace loving idealists, and instead blockaded Germany when they started violating the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, Hitler would have been stopped. The British army may have been in bad shape but the Royal Navy alone could have ended Germany by blockading them in 1936

.

Derp blah blah blha. We felt guilty. Also no the Royal navy couldn't In WW1 Germany had built a Navy almost matching ours. And with Hitler he was also rebuilt a navy.
So i highly doubt it. And blockading ports does jack shit when the ships get bombed. And hitler gets all his arms from inland placed like Czechslovakia.

And USA was in WW2 for nearly 4 years, and had been giving Britain financial support since Day 1. You really need to learn your history better. Without Lend Lease Britain would have been unable to achieve jack shit in WWII.

No USA was in WW2 after Japs attacked. USA gave finacial support my ass. You mean USA gave Food and Weapons on the basis of long term loans, so that Britain had something to fight with since after Dunkirk we were out of weapons etc. Britain could of asked for peace at any time during WW2 and hitler probably would of accepted. He really did like the UK.

Actually USA spent the first 2 years giving Britain plenty of Economic aid but not intervening militarily because the US people had no desire to get involved in a war that had nothing to do with them. Was it USA's job to police the world? No.

And no they sold to both sides. Germany and Britain. Please learn your history. US had no desire to get involved in war yet they were happy to sell arms to men in alien countries so they can kill each other. And Expect not to get involved?
You Serious?
WW1=Usa makes profit of Britain and Germany then after Britain having huge debts, going into take germany take its stuff then get rich of Britains debts.
WW2=Rich USA sits there selling to Britain on Loan basis. Then gets involved 1 year before end and starts to take spoils again. But this time after war they expect the British Empire almost economically crushed from 2 wars caused by America to now start and pay countries like Greece. Giving them aid so they don't become Communist.
Basically America tried to get us to Buy allies for it. DERP? America had to BUY ALLIES! Through Dollar imperialism.

Yet now that they try and do so everyone bitches at them. But whenever a conflict arises or the UN needs someone with a real military to help with a peacekeeping mission they look to USA. It's hypocrisy to the max.

Lol the UN=America. Learn that its like the LON=Britain.
They looked to America since its the only economic power which seems to have wars in middle east. So now it asks if your not warring for oil. Prove it and a help a country which is in constant civil war which has no natural resources for you to take and steal.

Britain really.

In WWI they could have gotten better generals to win the war faster, thus reducing the economic toll.

In WWII they could have blockaded Germany before it even started, thus preventing the conflict.

Better Generals would of not won the war faster. Technology was limited. And at the time Defensive was more effective than offensive. It was a war of attrition.
Tanks were still developing. And Gas was used by the allies alot due to the Germans attack with gas in 1916 then barely using it again.
As i said Britain was feeling guilty due to a Dictat of a Treaty which was unfair on Germany. If not for WW1 and the Angry french President at the Treaty of Versaille and Paris peace conference. WW2 would of never happened. And i already explained America's implications in starting the war through bad lending. Hmmm didn't this repeat in 2008. Yup !

BS BS BS AND MORE BS. Take your propaganda elsewhere.



They tried to conquer the free world, and we're complaining about how the allied powers, including the UK and the USSR, made use of German and Japanese scientists and their work?

Most of it was used by the USA, barely any by Britain since at the time Britain could not afford the resources to use it effectively. The USSR more Russian Scientists than Nazi. Due to there geographical position the exploitation of germanies science was difficult. Even in occupied zones, while America found it alot easier. Yet still Russia had first man in space XD

The A-Bomb was worked on by a lot of other people, not Nazis.

Felix Block, David Bohm, Niels Bohr, Enrico Fermi, James Franck, Otto Frisch, Klaus Fuchs, Rudolf Peierls, Emilio Segre, Leo Szilard, Edward Teller and Eugene Wigner all played crucial roles in getting the weapon designed and built

This is the list of crucial scientist involved in the Atom bomb. Some of these were Germany, Former Nazi scientists who worked on the German project before being dismissed
So yeh Nazi made A-Bomb

Erich Bagge, Kurt Diebner, Walther Gerlach, Otto Hahn, Paul Harteck, Werner Heisenberg, Horst Korsching, Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker, and Karl Wirtz. Also, incarcerated was Max von Laue, These also German Scientists there work was taken from the German project and used in the American manhatten project

USA doesn't tell Israel what to do. Israel does as it pleases. Nor is America invading people for oil. That's a fallacy spread by the left. Iraq was just Bush being given shitty intelligence and him wanting to prove he could do a better job than daddy. USA gets most of their oil from Canada, and if it weren't for Obama they could be getting 100% of it from us.

Derp Israel Hated Palastine, Palastine hated Israel. USA sold Palastine weapons and Israel Slightly better weapons since it preferred Israel because of the amount of jews in the USA. Bush went Iraq for oil.
DerP

Pakistan and China are sensible? Oh my god... Who is teaching you this propaganda?

Pakistan is sensible with china, read up on your news. Pakistan hit America with the ultimatum after multiple attempts at starting a war between india and Pakistan.

Yeah ok, sure.



Russia lost in WW1 lol.

Russia didn't loose WW1 it went into an internal Red revolution half way through and had to give germany land for peace.


Before you reply maybe do a google search or find a book which contains the History of Germany and Britain and USA through 1914-1950

When i see your username and posts "Historical Expert" does not come to mind

 

[NFWar]

Hah.. you even made a thread for this..
It is sux and we all know it.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

The topics of wars aren't much of my interest but I have to wake you up on some things:
Indeed self-proclamation as 'History Expert' doesn't make you one, though I'm not one either, other than I can think beyond the surface of information and propaganda presented by the media suck as the fucking Piece of Shit Propaganda called The Economist

The reason why we need to care about evironment is because it is our place to live, and dislike taking this as granted. Do we really need a cataclysm to make some people with such thinking wake up??

Economy, screw economy, it is nothing without ENVIRONMENT, nothing. Have an earthquake, now do you enjoy work places? Economy won't exist without a care for environment. This is not some Socialist/Communist/Marxist theory it is simply science, though I see you are the other radical right wing and obviously a hater of Left Wing. Well I dislike any parties both right and left, I just don't take things from political view.

How from too much economy can actually make things worse: You make an oil platform in the ocean, you create work places, something happens, oil spills in the ocean, it kills animals, life that we should not kill just like that, the ocean becomes unsitable for tourism say the dirt aka oil reaches the beach, for anything basically it's not good to go in that area.

Pollution and health - you create work places with industry, ok, who cares that you have a work places when you breath lethal gases and get a cancer or smth because of that?

I can give a bunch of examples where industry has destroyed balance in nature and hasn't led to anything good. Humans are the real parasites here and some who think they should live on behalf of what they are given, should be the first GONE. Very quickly you have forgotten that your life is not granted, you are expected to respect this planet and nature, maybe if you got in circumstances where you really depending on it, you would forget about work places and your economy. I call this the thinking of capitalist PIG and I am not sharing marxism or socialism either.

Also about the US:
Most of the things they do like the places they interve are no good and they have economy wars, including weapon supplying, forget WW2 there are enough examples after WW2. And P.S 9/11 was not entirely a terrorist attack, an inside job too. Blame your government. Not a conspiracy.

I hate patriots of any country who insist on how good they are when the facts will blind them with their obviousness they are NOT.

 

[Destroyer25]

Ok I'm done here...

You kids really need to get a proper education. Come talk to me when you're ready to accept you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Oh I'm sorry Mr self-proclaimed 'expert', I'm probably older than you. I know US has the real capitalism but like it goes for everything - too much of something is harmful. It is OK to be thinking of ways to earn money but when it comes to trying to have a way to earn even while walking, sleeping, breathing, it's getting a little bit greedy and too materalistic dont you think? Going over the edge about it is what annoys me.

I'd never approve of industry that makes the air harmful for people living around just to get some work places.. and those people who are on the same position are not with childish thinking, they just give a shit rather than will person X have a job!

Be competitive get a job, be not - your prob!

Also US has shown to be doing lots of things and wars for pure economic purposes, there are enough experts there, real ones to tell you that. It is just not my concern to talk about or be interested in their exopolitics when I am not them, or theirs. I like the US, im not a US hater, so I stay neutral to their actions.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The UK might be in troube if it lest the eurozone colapse as it might cause investors to lose confidence in the UK. Once that happens the UK would lose its credit rating and start going a simlar way as Greece.

I favour the "repo man" pollicy. If you can no longer aford your debt as a country, your country should be sold off (asset stripped) to other countries in exchange for writing off the debt. This would make countries think twice before borrowing so much money.

As a UK citizen I will express my opinion of outrage that we have had to bail out so many contries with our money. That money could have gone to improving the people here instead and restoring the UK to its past glory.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I see my professor on our national TV giving opinion lately and I'm also thinking the European Monetary Union will not collapse but it will go through reforms to survive. What im starting to think, was studying EU studies really worth it, bla bla-ing me for years about the advantages of EMU and getting even examined on it if it would not survive..

 

[Brambleclaw]

Destroyer25 The only education you need is multiple sources of knowledge and evaluation of such sources. Thus gaining an overall fair but half oppinianted view instead of following propoganda.

Eimtr i understand what your saying and agree but you conveyed a bit oddly. Maybe better to say Economy is simply a basis of the globalised trade of produce. Produce comes from the enviroment so do resources. So everything depends on this world, the economy is simple the ecommerce spreading out and trade of this produce.

Money is only worth as much as a person thinks it is worth. This is why currency changes depending the usage values and economic situations and confidence in such systems.


Dr Super Good sorry to be a gramma nazi "let" not lest XD
The uk is bailing out other countries for no reason. I agree that we should just let the losses lie and make them learn for their mistakes. A bit like what America did with the Lehman's brothers.

Anyway yeh its pointless. The Repo man is a nice idelogy, but it will never be implemented as it is totally right wing. I doubt anyone would be too pleased if we started selling the Queen's Crown or any national treasuers too soon.



On other points.

The UK would not become like Greece. Confidence can be assured in Cameron who has turned us from the Labour Red to the Captalist Black. Unlike Margaret thatcher who sold everything we needed like Utillities. Cameron has instead of selling crap which gives a short inject and a bad long run approach. He has cut prices causing a decrease is loss and increase in gain. Also the Loans and bails actually have started returning some profit. And will later on hopefully continue to arise.
The more recent ones have not. xD
Also the Teachers are fucked up in the head. The average teacher wage is £37,000
The Pension of that is £22,000
The average pRivate sector wage is £18,000
So yeh teacher's have it well of. Labour went mad with benefits and crap. We should just gone like Sweden and Norway stock piled the money then use it when needed. "Rainy days" Why sweden is still increasing in the black and hardly ever went red. Singular country currency + Large stock pile =Good Confidence=Good economy=way to go


Btw the reason why America is so fucked up is that like in the Roman republic before Emperors it is run on money and bribes. Those who have wealth are those who run america

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

And our teacher's salary converted in GBP is maybe 200-250 GBP. It's like comparing a shit to a chocolate, which is better? Gee your problems..

 

[Brambleclaw]

Your living costs are alot lower. And i was reffering only to the UK as its in the UK which teachers are having massive strikes over. But yeh comparing Incomes in different countries is a bit pointless. unless they share the same currency. I.E Euro or Dollar xD etc

Btw where are you from xD?

 

[Dr Super Good]

I doubt anyone would be too pleased if we started selling the Queen's Crown or any national treasuers too soon.

The UK still has a credit rating meaning people deem it able to pay back money it borrows. Greece and places on the other hand have a credit rating as bad as one can get prety much as people know they will never pay it back. The major difference is that Greece is bankcrupt while the UK is not.

My sujestion was only for countries that declare they are bankcrupt and so refuse to pay of their debt. Currently as an investor who lent money to a country you will never see that money again if they declare they refuse to honer debts. How is that fair? Ultimatly their bad spending behaviour cascades down to places like the UK and Germany which have already given Greece a lot of money via susbidies from the EU having to eithor bail them out or to be draged down with them.

God knows why the these countries were let into the EU in the first place when it was obvious they would do nothing but parasitise richer countries.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

God knows why the these countries were let into the EU in the first place when it was obvious they would do nothing but parasitise richer countries.

Because there is criteria frm Copenhagen about membership and countries who are let in meet them at the time of entry (or are given the runner-up program that is to meet them shortly after they join). And same for EMU - there are Maastricht criteria that if met, can enter the Eurozone.

Greece wasn't with such problems when they joined the EU but hey, there was no single monetary currency either, so yes im not sure EMU is such a good thing..

And currently there is no way to kick a country frm the team cause the process would be very complex. Also Italy was a founder, cannot be called 'parasite' and they were on one of the Great powers.

Some countries act as parasites agreed, but they want to benefit from the membership and it is a good thing, EMU may not be. So I think the formula eventually could be EU without EMU

@Brambleclaw - Bulgaria

 

[Brambleclaw]

Italy was never a great power and always a parasite. Including in World war 1 and 2. Just hope we clear that up. they took no real active part in either war Swapped side sin WW1 to the victor and took some of the spoils in both wars. So yeh they are parasites

 

[HFR]

Italy was never a great power and always a parasite. Including in World war 1 and 2. Just hope we clear that up. they took no real active part in either war Swapped side sin WW1 to the victor and took some of the spoils in both wars. So yeh they are parasites

There's so many things wrong with this post...

 

[Brambleclaw]

Yet you don't point out what is wrong. Try supporting your argument before making bold statements. I give statements which are supported. As this is historical fact. You make a blatant statement which has no evidence or support.

Jesus just take a look at Itallian HIstory. In WW2 There were very few instances where Italy fought. And most times they got trashed. You have one battle where italy hit Britain with its air force. They were literally failing hard. Britain was taking out 10 Itallian planes for ever 1 Brit plane. Derp itallians were awfull.

Then in WW1 They were part of the Triple entant , Then didnt join in the war and instead left. They only ever wanted to gain land. So sided with victor. Due to italy leaving Turkey- The ottoman empire decided to step in and help Germany in place of Italy. Turkey>italy

 

[EloTheMan]

As I remember the original EU was basically meant to stop France and Germany from going to war with each other, again.

It was not intended to make Europe a united economy.

 

[Cakedog345]

Greek situation is the result of internal and external political games!
It is a pity the youth of this country, which has a huge weight on his shoulders and is not prepared to support it.
And someone here said something like "annexation of Greece to Turkey" (if I understood well) - I believe that this statement shows a lack of respect for the people of this country (who are going through very difficult situation and who struggle in each day to sustain the existence of their children and their elders).
It's easy to talk about the mistakes they made ​​and what was supposed to do - to not be here.
It`s too late! We can not turn back time, it is past!
Now if we can suggest solutions to them - for what they could do from now and in the future!
(I mean - humanly possible solutions - solutions that do not kneel and humiliate them as human beings.)

 

[EloTheMan]

Greek situation is the result of internal and external political games!
It is a pity the youth of this country, which has a huge weight on his shoulders and is not prepared to support it.
And someone here said something like "annexation of Greece to Turkey" (if I understood well) - I believe that this statement shows a lack of respect for the people of this country (who are going through very difficult situation and who struggle in each day to sustain the existence of their children and their elders).
It's easy to talk about the mistakes they made ​​and what was supposed to do - to not be here.
It`s too late! We can not turn back time, it is past!
Now if we can suggest solutions to them - for what they could do from now and in the future!
(I mean - humanly possible solutions - solutions that do not kneel and humiliate them as human beings.)

Even if we came up with a viable solution that will work with both the economy and the social part it won't get through due to the fact that Greece is now so irritated with external political help.

The solution must be presented directly in their parliamentary by one of their politicians otherwise it will be another mass demonstration in Athene.

 

[Cakedog345]

I know that!
Not glimpsed the light at the end the tunnel! It will be a long way!
They need more than ever - do not lose hope.

 

[EloTheMan]

½ Offtopic
I just read an article in a swedish newspaper about how Poland wanting Germany to save Europe from collapse.

Ironic isn't it?

 

[Cakedog345]

Indeed!

 

[Destroyer25]

Yet you don't point out what is wrong. Try supporting your argument before making bold statements. I give statements which are supported. As this is historical fact. You make a blatant statement which has no evidence or support.

Jesus just take a look at Itallian HIstory. In WW2 There were very few instances where Italy fought. And most times they got trashed. You have one battle where italy hit Britain with its air force. They were literally failing hard. Britain was taking out 10 Itallian planes for ever 1 Brit plane. Derp itallians were awfull.

Then in WW1 They were part of the Triple entant , Then didnt join in the war and instead left. They only ever wanted to gain land. So sided with victor. Due to italy leaving Turkey- The ottoman empire decided to step in and help Germany in place of Italy. Turkey>italy

Do people actually still believe those childish myths? That's the kind of crap that 13 year olds spread around because they liked making a mockery of other people's military failures.

Oh yes, Italian tanks had more gears in reverse than forwards, France has had no military victories. *Rolls eyes*

 

[Brambleclaw]

Again where's your evidence. Italy had many millitary victories but back in the Roman times. Allthough equally the "Barbarians" the celtic empire had equally as many victories after and before and during the Emperor period.

But hey again if your not gonna back up your bold statements i guess there is no point in even arguing.

Sigh....

Also France actually has the best history win to loss ratio. It has the highest wins to losses in Europe, and some of the greatest victories. It also had a hella lot of wars.

For example in WW1 Britain invented the Tank it was slow at first and was pretty suicidal but it did its job.

By 1918 France and released there own tank which was alot better faster and more mobile like tanks are meant to be.

But hey i guess you believe the stereotypes that all Brits hate the French in ignorance. Herp Derp. And even if we did that means nothing to history


Italy in WW1 and WW2 was nothing just face it. I guess maybe your probably Itallian, but sorry for the truth.

 

[EloTheMan]

@Destroyer25 stop arguing with Brambleclaw, he has more knowledge and apparently he is better at finding facts on the internet.

This thread is about Greece economy and anything related to it.

 

[Brambleclaw]

Still why doesn't greece just do it the Weinmar way and enter a new currency by giving out only $20 or whatever symbol they will use for that currency to each person in the country. During in the transition phase up to a certain date only stamped currency is legal tender after which only the new currency is viable.
The germans did it with the deutschmark or something like that in the Weinmar republic.

Alternatively Greece could just actually consider making "Cuts" Then holding its debts and start looking for a investment loan to restart up industry. Like what happened in the Weinmar republic and after WW2 in Western Germany. "although without the wallstreet crash inbetween.

The difficulty will be getting interest for investors though :L. So some plans would have to be organized very well. Also Greece would either need to expand the markets it has or make new markets. Which will be difficult in the current economical climate. But this is a viable option in the long term after the massive crash
Either way i think the Euro is gonna collapse.

 

[Destroyer25]

Italy in WW1 and WW2 was nothing just face it. I guess maybe your probably Itallian, but sorry for the truth.

Actually I'm Canadian, and if you're aware that all the jokes about the French military are fallacies then you should know the same about the Italian military.

See these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_participation_in_the_Eastern_Front

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_El_Alamein

Still why doesn't greece just do it the Weinmar way and enter a new currency by giving out only $20 or whatever symbol they will use for that currency to each person in the country. During in the transition phase up to a certain date only stamped currency is legal tender after which only the new currency is viable.
The germans did it with the deutschmark or something like that in the Weinmar republic.

Transitioning to a new currency is neither simple or bloodless, and Greek politicians are economically illiterate. It's a difficult thing to do, so we can't just say why don't they do this?

And giving every person in Greece $20 would cost $220 million, money they don't have, nor would giving everyone $20 even solve anything. $20 is nothing, it will buy them breakfast.

Alternatively Greece could just actually consider making "Cuts" Then holding its debts and start looking for a investment loan to restart up industry. Like what happened in the Weinmar republic and after WW2 in Western Germany. "although without the wallstreet crash inbetween.

The people are against austerity, there's not much than can be done about it.

The difficulty will be getting interest for investors though :L. So some plans would have to be organized very well. Also Greece would either need to expand the markets it has or make new markets. Which will be difficult in the current economical climate. But this is a viable option in the long term after the massive crash
Either way i think the Euro is gonna collapse.

Nobody is investing in Europe right now. Who would have any confidence in the ability of those Social Democratic idiots to fix the problem? So yes, I agree, the EU will collapse. They're finished.

 

[Brambleclaw]

Derp
Firstly Russia in WW2 Had the worlds largest and worlds Worst army. Stalin killed of all his Generals and Good officers. Hence when Russia attacked Finland it got trashed. And hence why Germany just picked of its army in a few months. And beaten back only by the weather and the people of Moscow who valiantly all left there homes and set up defenses.

2ndly you pointed out 2 campaigns niether which were of any victory. Just saying they fought in the war doesn't actually mean they made an effect at all. My country might join a war and have 50 of our soldiers die for everyone of ours. Its not feasible. Its like when China sent soldiers in the korean war to defend North korea. At the river. 800,000 Chinese deaths and only 20,000 American deaths about 40,000 South korean deaths.

So yeh not really valid.

Also may i quote

Quotes+Stuff

Aftermath
Since the beginning of the Italian campaign in Russia, about 30,000 Italians had been killed and another 54,000 would die in captivity. By the end of February 1943, the rout of the ARMIR was complete. Mussolini then withdrew what remained of his 8th Army from Russian soil. The Italian forces in Russia had been reduced to less than 150,000 men, and 34,000 of these were wounded. The disaster in Russia was a fierce blow to the power and popularity of the dictator. Both sank as the gloomy news soon reached the public in Italy. Survivors blamed the Fascist political elite and the army generals. The survivors said they both had acted irresponsibly by sending a poorly prepared, ill-equipped, and inadequately armed military force to the Russian Front. According to veterans, weapons in Italian service were awful: hand grenades rarely went off and rifles and machine guns had to be kept for a long time on a fire to work properly in extreme climatic conditions, thus often not capable of firing in the midst of battle. The German commanders were accused of sacrificing the Italian divisions, whose withdrawal was supposedly delayed after the Soviet breakthrough, in order to rescue their own troops.[5]
Throughout 1943, Italy's fortunes worsened. On 25 July 1943, Benito Mussolini and his Fascist government were put out of power by King Victor Emmanuel III. On 8 September, the new Italian government led by the King and Marshal Pietro Badoglio signed an armistice with the Allies.

Emphasis on this part The disaster in Russia was a fierce blow to the power and popularity of the dictator. Both sank as the gloomy news soon reached the public in Italy. Survivors blamed the Fascist political elite and the army generals. The survivors said they both had acted irresponsibly by sending a poorly prepared, ill-equipped, and inadequately armed military force to the Russian Front. According to veterans, weapons in Italian service were awful: hand grenades rarely went off and rifles and machine guns had to be kept for a long time on a fire to work properly in extreme climatic conditions, thus often not capable of firing in the midst of battle.

So yeh the Generals were shocking . Soldiers ill equipped with faulty weapons. And pretty much useless. Even the Germans were using Itallians as the cannon fodder.

So Yeh your first link is a bad example.

Here is a Quote about Italy's Airforce in WW2. When skies were key.

When World War II began in 1939, Italy had the smallest air force among the three major Axis powers. With a paper strength of 3,296 machines, only 2,000 were fit for operations, of which just 166 were modern fighters. The Macchi MC.200 and Fiat G.50 were the best available but were still slower than potential Allied fighters. While numerically still a force to be reckoned with, it was hampered by the local aircraft industry which was using obsolete production methods. Technical assistance provided by its German ally did little to improve the situation

Also from your 2nd link

El Alamein was a significant Allied victory and the most decisive in Africa with respect to closing of a war front, although Rommel did not lose hope until the end of the Tunisia Campaign. After three years the African theatre was cleared of Axis forces and the Allies could look northward to the Mediterranean

Sorry but seriously are you trying to look stupid or am i missing your point here?. Your saying that the Jokes about the Itallian army are facile and stupid. Then you link two major victories for the Allies and 2 disasters for Italy and the Axis?


Conclusion: Canadian Trolls need to l2n more history.


Also as Elotheman said this is about Greece not WW2 so can we talk about this elsewhere if you still wanna continue. And if you are gonna continue then please research first.

 

[HFR]

800,000 chinese dead? Where did you get these numbers?

 

[EloTheMan]

And giving every person in Greece $20 would cost $220 million, money they don't have, nor would giving everyone $20 even solve anything. $20 is nothing, it will buy them breakfast.

Its not going to be exactly $20, it will be an estimated value in their new currency.

800,000 chinese dead? Where did you get these numbers?

Anything is possible in China lol
Its probably a misspelling like 80,00 or 180,00 but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 800,000 since all sources tell different things
(for example Chinese Official Sources said that the PVA lost around 150,000 soldiers while the US lost 390,000 and South Korea 660,000. US said they lost around 36,000 soldiers.)

No numbers are 100% accurate, not even mine so don't reply with things telling me that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war#Casualties

 

[Brambleclaw]

The official GCSE books / Derp which is fact . Its both in education and taught as fact and anywhere u search you will see this 800 000 casualties, i might of included kpa as well :L. Majority dead. Yes estimate but its close. :L

Edit:

Figures to prove this or around it

KITTEH

Would of been this

but it dont load : (
http://youtu.be/ql0B1nNvWPE

The actual figures herp derp XD

Also

According to the data from the US Department of Defense, the United States had suffered 33,686 battle deaths, along with 2,830 non-battle deaths during the Korean War and 8,176 missing in action.[124] Western sources estimate the PVA had suffered between 100,000 to 1,500,000 deaths (most estimate some 400,000 killed), while the KPA had suffered between 214,000 to 520,000 deaths (most estimate some 500,000). Between some 245,000 to 415,000 South Korean civilian deaths were also suggested, and the entire civilian casualty during the war were estimated from 1,500,000 to 3,000,000 (most sources estimate some 2,000,000 killed).[125]
Data from official Chinese sources, on the other hand, reported that the PVA had suffered 114,000 battle deaths, 34,000 non-battle deaths, 340,000 wounded, 7,600 missing and 21,400 captured during the war. Among those captured, about 14,000 defected to Taiwan while the other 7,110 were repatriated to China.[126] Chinese sources also reported that North Korea had suffered 290,000 casualties, 90,000 captured and a "large" number of civilian deaths.[126] In return, the Chinese and North Koreans estimated that about 390,000 soldiers from United States, 660,000 soldiers from South Korea and 29,000 other UN soldiers were "eliminated" from the battlefield.

Previous Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
T

The average estimate of chinese sources which i assume are heavilly bias considering what it says. And how the army was formed. The chinese army was mainly unequipped peasants. Especially after things like the Manchuria crisis, this showed how weak china was at the time. Its soldiers probably had outdated equipment and it would be more of a peasant force.
Although some of its armies were with modern weapons from Russia and its support.
Here is another site citing casualties and its history etc http://www.johndclare.net/cold_war10.htm


Also

Chinese claims
died in battle: 115,000
injury: 221,000
died from accident or sickness: 25,000
missing and captured: 29,000

sichuan province:30789
shangdong province:19685
jiling province:18260
liaoning province :13374
hunan province:10687
henan province:10673
hebei province:10155
heilongjiang province:8222
jiangsu province:7268
shanxi province:5853
hubei province:5167
anhui province:4151
zhejiang province:3732
guangdong province:3186
guangxi municipality:2915
shanxi province:2802
uizhou province:2799
jiangxi province:2162
neimenggu municipality:1683
shanghai:1634
yunnan province:1482
beijing:1438
gansu province:1041
fujian province:982
tianjin:977
ningxia municipality:461
xinjiang municipality:61
qinghai province:48

however with the non bias sources it shows from the KPA and PVA that it was 500,000 and 400,000 casualty on average respectively estimated. Totalling an average of 900,000 casualties from both armies

BBC Pentagon as having lost over 400,000 killed (including Mao Tse-tung's son) and 486,000 wounded. Citing from petagon

I used $ to show currency/ Since i dont know what symbol iwas mena use. Hence i said create a new currency. This would not cost 220 million dollars. It would cost a few pence for the paper . And thats it. All the euros could be used to pay of some of the debt. And legal tender changed.

IN a country where anyone has left is 20 value of a currency. They start of equal and it begins again. So no it won't byu them breakfast. Due to the sudden drop in currency amount in the country each part of currnecy is worth more. This counter acts Hyperinflation. And Hyperinflation only gets worse if more money is produced. Thus it will get them more.


The people are against austerity, there's not much than can be done about it.

Threaten to invade them maybe?--- Like what happened with German in the Rhineland when Germany didn't pay reperations to France for 2 years. Derp

Then force them to work like the French also did or use the land and resources there and bring Eu workers . And create jobs.

Or alternatively if you don't think that idea is too sound or just. Just cut of all funding kick them out of the Eu and the Euro and stop wasting money so they can have the lifestyle there living in. If they go into poverty because they are unable to make cuts. Its there fault for not setting up a stable economy.
Herp Derp. Not our problem . Sometimes its best to back out.

Whats the point of investing more into a sunk ship.

it wont make things any better.

"Nobody is investing in Europe right now."

At one point China did some interest it was like a total of 1 billion spread between a few country. BUt yeh did nothing :L

 

[EloTheMan]

"Nobody is investing in Europe right now."

At one point China did some interest it was like a total of 1 billion spread between a few country. BUt yeh did nothing :L

China does some difference when it comes to investments now days.

The only problem is that as long as the local problems remain, those investments will just be absorbed by the falling market.

Lower corruption, less tax escaping citizens, stable currency and governmental funds, regulated trading/financing. All that is needed for Greece, and some parts of Europe, to recover.

 

[hellblazer-14]

This is a very sensitive and difficult topic; and I cannot think of any fitting measure to counteract the downward spiral that has gripped the majority of the EU...
-
Giving or lending money to countries like Greece won't help imo; considering the amount of corruption as other users have already pointed out, and the fact that many of the people there are not even willing to change their ways to help solve their economic crisis (complaining about having to go into pension a few years later...) of course this is understandable, but considering the 'early' pension age of 65 in Germany, and that of 55 in Greece, there does seem to be room for change.
-
Then there are the idiots overseas claiming that countries like Germany and France are attempting to stealthily take over the European Union, I cannot fathom what would compel someone to make such statements!

Perhaps the only logical solution would be to allow the EU to crumble; making each country fend for itself, this would force those incapable of structuring their own economy and industry to either reform or face the risk of disintegrating completely.

 

[Brambleclaw]

Actually i would say Germany is trying to take over Europe. Or moreso Germany has taken over Europe. The fact for this is now Germany is the only great profiteerer from the EU. For starters the EU was meant to have a Fair free market. It does not. Germany when joining had a lower minimum wage. So could sell goods at a lower price to other EU countries. Giving it an unfair competitive advantage in the so called "Free market".

Yes Germany pays the most into the Eu. But its gains are far greater for Fixed trade advantages etc that it makes its money + a huge bonus.
Hence why all the industry in Europe went to germany.

Not to mention since the Euro was instated, few other countries were able to devaluate there currency to match Germany's competitive labour wages.
Germany doesn't even have minimum wage in the some of its economy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
Derp then here is a News blog on what "europe is meant to be doing"
http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/06...for-a-more-sustainable-wage-led-growth-model/

While germany goes of on its own self gain tangent


---Euro effect on german economy http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/04/22/business/20110423_CHARTS_graphic.html?ref=global

Yeh Euro = Big win for germany due to monopolisation.


Its already been reported and shown most European papers are showing very anti all who are not part of this great plan "Britain" for one who used its veto.

I believe a number of Memorabillia or cartoons could be drawn out to show the situation. But here is just one of them.

So we're not idiots overseas.
Its the truth. And Sarkozy just mooches of Merkel. Since he has no real influence. He just heckels and hapilly is unlikely gonna be in power anymore. France inputs roughly the same as Britain so should be treated the same. But they frankly are not. Britian is side cornered, and this is obvious.


Yes the Eu should crumble. It would be nice. The Eu is like the LON and these sort of groups always fall in the end. It would be nice to see a 3rd attempt. Or just leave it as it is. Instead of fixed systems.

The EU should of been the Free Market as Magaret Thatcher envisioned. Not all the bullcrap that we have now.



Lending money to countries which are sinkholes is pointless. Just let the country die then rebuild it.

Or make them reset there currency.

Yes there will be effects from it. But it is pointless otherwise. What would be better to possible devalue a currency slightly. Or to plug all your money into it then realise that even then you can't deal with the deficit.


The Eu has a 3 place plan to defend against the defecit. It is enough however the first building block is unstable. Therefore making the whole 3 lump sums useless. Causing investors to see it as risky and keep bond rates high.



Sensitive topics are made for being destroyed. Its like Topics about the Holocaust, Religion or Racism.

 

[hellblazer-14]

Well I agree to a certain extent; mind you I am far less knowledgeable of the subject compared to you ^^
But I doubt that the foreign press is depicting Germany in a positive light either - that's just the way our modern media functions, everyone attempts to smear everybody. Annnd Germany got the cheaper import costs and cheaper labor because of its war reparations; else the incredible debts would have crushed it and that wouldn't have been much good for the countries siphoning money from it to rebuild their own devastated cities and treasuries.

It's always easy to point a finger at someone and use them as a scapegoat :/
But then again, what do I know ^^ politics and the economy are beyond me at this point.

 

[Fussiler1]

So we're not idiots overseas.
Its the truth. And Sarkozy just mooches of Merkel. Since he has no real influence. He just heckels and hapilly is unlikely gonna be in power anymore. France inputs roughly the same as Britain so should be treated the same. But they frankly are not. Britian is side cornered, and this is obvious.

No, just no.

Yes the Eu should crumble. It would be nice. The Eu is like the LON and these sort of groups always fall in the end. It would be nice to see a 3rd attempt. Or just leave it as it is. Instead of fixed systems.

The EU has very much resulted in increased wealth for many people.

 

[Brambleclaw]

They dont need the advantage anymore. Its just pointless.

Fussiler please show actual evidence to support your oppinion.

Yes others do profit. But the most prominant of these is Germany. It became the powerhouse of Europe because of the Euro and how it monopolised industry leaving other countries like Greece Italy Spain etc with poor industrial sites and little investement.

The other group which profits is Eastern europe and the poorer countries. Due to the aid given and little revenue produced.

So we have 2 people who profit greatly compared to what they put in.
1. Germany
2. Eastern Europe.

Britain does profit to some extent, but is not in the Euro. And if the EU was never set up would still have industry. Grain from America industry inland would of been fine.
So Britain does not really need Europe.
France has its farmers and own industry. It does not really need europe as it could survive to some extent also.

But since the Europe was set up both Britain and France have been entrapped.

Spain has arid land due to Erosion And its getting worse. They might of been able to cope but its unlikely.

Im not too sure How italy or Greece would cope without Europe.

But its plain to see those who would not cope are not really gaining anything anyway. Since of 2 are in Trillion of debt.


Im not trying to point the finger at who caused what etc. But if the only major profiteer is Germany. And the majority of things seem to be decided by German and its overbearing influence.
Then yeh im concerned and its likely that there will be somone to blame. And its kind of hard not too in a situation like this.

Due to such fixes in the system most of Europes industry was drove to Germany.
Now in fairplay they juts took the benefits. So if they are now one of the only ones to benefit from Europe. Then they want Europe to stay how it is. They are therefore gaining more influence. So it is understandable why they got riled at the veto etc etc.

But since its them who are involved so much. Its their problem. Not ours.



Also Yes Britain is sidelined just pick up a paper and read or have a look at the EU's last meeting. Derp

Britain GNI = 2.28 Trillion
France GNI = 2.23 Trillion

Derp
http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/...&idim=country:FRA&dl=en&hl=en&q=gni+of+france
http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/...p_cd&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=gni+of+uk
http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/...idim=country:DEU&dl=en&hl=en&q=gni+of+germany

Not to mention how the cap for farming gave the most amount of money to France Germany and Italy and Spain keeping them nice and smug and happy. Mainly to France. DErp

OR about how in the EU all fishing water are open. So ireland is now Fish free. Literally there is no fish around anymore. There used to be hundreds. But now its almost barron seascape.
When countries like Germany and France barely have a sea front.
http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=9272

Italy also has less fish in the Medditerannian sea. Same with greece and portugal.

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15079

Also how much of the years Britain got screwed over finacially


Interesting reads about Europe http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=6477

 

[Mechanical Man]

Europe was adventurer like you, but then took an arrow to the knee. That arrow was fired by Europe itself. Refusing to buy iranian oil. Excellent news for greek economy... Fuck yeah, 2€/litre oil will become reality (that just in east EU), maybe a good chance for Norway to recover from butter crisis. And good move by croatian idiots to enter EU at the right time...

 

[Brambleclaw]

In the UK we already pay nearly 2euro's for a litre. But instead its in pounds. I think the highest i seen it at £1.35. Which is like 1.62euros. In 2008 this would of been 1.88 euros or something like that. I think i saw that price in 2008/9 so roughly that.

More recently its been switching between £1.14-£1.26 areas.

 

[Destroyer25]

In the UK we already pay nearly 2euro's for a litre. But instead its in pounds. I think the highest i seen it at £1.35. Which is like 1.62euros. In 2008 this would of been 1.88 euros or something like that. I think i saw that price in 2008/9 so roughly that.

More recently its been switching between £1.14-£1.26 areas.

The whole western world could be paying less than half that we're it not for Enviromarxist policies, which have been rampant in Europe for years, and recently infected America. I don't know what I'd do if the Conservatives weren't in power here. The left wing would tax the hell out of our oil industry and I'd be paying $5 a liter at the pump.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

^ Nope :/ Hating Europe is not gonna help such claim and environmentalists never had so much influence to not allow workplaces so as to keep nature.. It mattered for some places but the majority is far not because of nature lovers. It's all about interests

 

[Destroyer25]

^ Nope :/ Hating Europe is not gonna help such claim and environmentalists never had so much influence to not allow workplaces so as to keep nature.. It mattered for some places but the majority is far not because of nature lovers. It's all about interests

Wrong. The Enviromarxist lobby in Europe pushes for green energy, thus driving up the costs of power.

Denmark pays 0.43 USD/1kWh, Italy pays 0.37, the Netherlands pays 0.35, Germany 0.30. Canada pays 0.6. That's 5 times less. Why? Oil and natural gas. Green energy is inefficient and expensive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing

 

[Mechanical Man]

eh, if it would push for green energy, this so called green energy would already avalaible. And except few countries, European countries don't really have fossil fuels reserves, like in Middle east where you can thrust a pick through desert sand and the oil splashes out.

 

[Brambleclaw]

Derp Derp---

Just to inform you. One its not the enviromentalist which drive up the price about >80% of oil prices are deterimined by tax and duty. This would be there even without enviromental polocies. ---

If your so bothered about the prices of such fuel then just switch to a semi gas fuel tank or a hydrogen tank. Both options almost <50% the price of peotrol.

Enviromentalists are not that bad, yes there are the extremists who bend on the verge of insubordination and trying to stop progress. But the majority are pragmatic people who seek to combine sustainable and enviromentally friendly ideas with a new work ethic and resource bases.
As they know that without carefully managing resources at some point sooner than later we're gonna run out. Oil/Petrol runs the world. This is the human race putting all its eggs in one basket.
Power comes from it, plastic is made from it. Agriculture etc etc. Its become like the sun to us. Without it we have no economy no government no nothing we would be thrown into a ww3.

So yes its pretty reasonable to search for alternative energy sources even if these are expensive in the long run it will be of a greater benefit as technology and energy transferral efficiancy will increase.

----

Not to mention the major point is coming.

The main source of energy which is sustainable green and effective/ reliable for producing energy enmasse is Fusion reactors. Unlike Fission reactors Fusion reactors will produce Helium or Heavy Hydrogen molecules so there is no radioactive waste. Upon a number of many great other advantages it is the energy of the future.

How ever a reactor which can be run for sufficiant time for the reactor to b e efficiant is still an engoing research so we need to buy time.

Time can be bought through the use of wind energy and solar energy projects.

--Which will release our dependacy on Petrol a bit.



_--_ Now for the stupid part.

What everyone worries about CO2 --- Odd since all life form is Carbon based. And the fact that fuel is carbon chains.

So really its a pointless circle. And the fact the Sea's and oceans act as a massive carbon sink through the phytoplankton etc that live in the sea makes this whole fuss a bit stupid.

--The Polar ice caps are gonna melt anyway. And even if they didn't melt the earths sea levels would still rise due to the water heating up from Global warming.

This is a flaw in our planets atmosphere we can only slow it down.

(Solution -------TURN THE EARTH INTO A BIOSPHERE !! =D)
Make a massive glass Dome around the circumference of the earth. These Shutters can allow light in, variate the intensity of the light by blocking parts out then concentrating it, varity wave lengths and also will have an inbuilt defense mechaniscm to block metorites/asteroids. --

Bad solution:
1. Takes time to design and no one cares people will think your crazy for even suggesting this
2. Governments of countries won't collaborate there gonna be pissing about and nothing will get down.
America this is are sphere space---*Pushes half way into china's air space" --- China "Oi America your in our air space" -- America: "no This is our air space" 3 years later and after alot of conferences and "Diplomacy" The monkeys finally sit down at there type writer and decide to write out a peace agreement and then the President of America gets shot for doing something better for mankind and the cycle continues. Or they settle there difference as it becomes Europe and Russia arguing or The israelites and the palestians"
3. Your gonna get Advertising on the biosphere -.- now that will suck "Looks up to sky" oh ffs go away Coca Cola idgf about your s*** i just want to see the stars again.




Also i think you mean "Canada pays 0.06-- if it was to be 5 times less.

Also this means nothing ---
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2011-12-13/electric-bills/51840042/1

It varies "People living near hydropowerplants paying as little as $0.02/khw

Yeh Hydropowerplants are "Green energy" They are sustainable"-
So yeh you can get cheap green energy. Derp herp

 

[Destroyer25]

eh, if it would push for green energy, this so called green energy would already avalaible.

A lot of European countries already use green energy. Not exclusively, but they use more of it than anyone else, hence the ridiculously high electricity rates.

And except few countries, European countries don't really have fossil fuels reserves, like in Middle east where you can thrust a pick through desert sand and the oil splashes out.

Wrong, Europe is covered in natural gas shale and could easily be 100% self sufficient if they spent money on it rather than Enviromarxist and Social Democratic policy. But I guess Europe would rather blow their brains out and look like Somalia instead.

And you certainly can't just start digging in the Middle East and find oil. Not all Middle Eastern countries are covered in oil. Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey don't have oil or not the same quantity or quality that the Gulf states possess.

 

[Brambleclaw]

You ignored meh :<

You didn't even read my argument.

Derp

People in canada and usa in areas have Electricity rates at $0.02/1khw

Which is heck a cheap and its Green energy from hydropowerplants.

Your map is useless as its inveitable that the world will run of fuel as its not a renewable source of energy. So even if we spent billions on oil mines to dig up oil reserves lets think shall we. Oh wait yeh it will be gone within a few years etc etc.

Self sufficiant my ass. The idea of self sufficiancy is that it can go on forever.

This is not self sufficiant. This is just using up an already exhausted supply.

Also that map is unreliable. It gives "Basin witha resource estimate" And doesn't show the estimated qunatities. or without estimate. Which means effectively it could be a basin marked on the map with 1 gallon of oil and thats it.
So mechanical man is fine in saying that Europe has no real oil reserves untill you can produce some factual evidence against it.

The only real oil producer in Europe is norway.


Also
"A lot of European countries already use green energy. Not exclusively, but they use more of it than anyone else, hence the ridiculously high electricity rates. "

Please prove this statement. Considering that europe isn't even hitting its "Green targets" .....

 

[EloTheMan]

Europe is covered in natural gas shale and could easily be 100% self sufficient if they spent money on it rather than Enviromarxist and Social Democratic policy. But I guess Europe would rather blow their brains out and look like Somalia instead.

You speak of socialism as if it were a threat to economical progress, well let me tell you one thing: Scandinavia has the highest taxes and probably the tightest social security politics in the world. Is it on the brink of bankruptcy as Greece or Italy? The answer is no. The only things that ruins economy is irresponsibility or unexpected factors (such as natural disasters). Being dependent on oil is irresponsible because it will eventually run out and it gets more expensive each year.

Also, if it weren't for socialism I wouldn't be able to study, I would instead work for a low wage to help my family pay the bills for the rest of my life.

So why does my government use money to allow me to study? Simple: If I get a good education I will probably get a good job which will increase the amount of taxes I pay back instead of living on allowances which costs more in the long turn. When it comes to energy its almost the same, just because its cheaper for the moment it will cost us a lot more in the future.

 

[Brambleclaw]

Socialism is equally as good as capitalism its just more dependant on how the government is run. There are over countries which have subsidised /free education.
Also Sweden never had to rebuild its economy from a war xD

But yeh good point xD

 

[Brambleclaw]

Bump: Revive Thread ---------------------------------------------------------not necro post
This time without offtopics
The Greek Crisis Stage 2--Refusing Austerity.

What will happen now?
Is this good or bad?
What are your thoughts?
Are you happy with the new french president? -- Is he a breath of fresh air for Europe? or is he a downfall for France.