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60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

The Argument That: Homosexuality is Due to Genes/Genetic Structure

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by Map Designer, Oct 9, 2019.

  1. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    I will use simple words this time to make sure that even you understand it now.

    They. Do. Not. Need. To. Justify. Themselves. Or. Their. Sexuality.
    There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With. Homosexual. People. They. Are. Not. Different. From. Us. Heterosexuals.
     
  2. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I didn't know you were an expert in the matter.
    I also guess, rash statements is also part of being such an expert in life matters.

    Ah, I badly grew up thinking women and men are different. My bad.
     
  3. Map Designer

    Map Designer

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    You might want to convince them that they should never use any justification about it then :)
     
  4. Blackcat

    Blackcat

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    What a weird discussion to have in 2019.

    Leave peoples sexuality alone. We are all equal, regardless of sexuality. Sexuality is not a choice. And we should respect and accept people the way they are. It's not that difficult.
     
  5. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    That.
     
  6. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    More of the believe and do not doubt preachers.
     
  7. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    This thread is about arguing whether or not a statement can be used to "defend" the sexuality
    of an individual. Think about this and ask yourself: Do you not feel that the whole idea of this
    thread is stupid?

    There is no need to "defend" such a thing, if you believe otherwise and want to call me a
    preacher because I dare to believe that people are equal and their sexuality is their private
    matter and nothing that I or anyone else is in a position to judge, then oh please, go ahead
    and show what an intolerant person hides behind your internet persona.

    I neither know nor care about the reasons for people to be homosexual, it is not my business.
    It is their life, not mine, not yours.
    I know that you have a very, VERY hard time not getting involved in other people's business, but
    for the love of god, stop being so simple-minded and stop trying to hide that behind poor attempts
    to "joke".
     
  8. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    I remember reading or seeing a documentary on the topic of homosexuality that involved brain scans.
    From what i recall homosexuality could be traced to a certain part of the brain (hypothalamus).
    Which more of less hinted that homosexuality starts from puberty.
    There was also an interesting case where a man had suffered injury to his brain and after the incident he started leaning more towards homosexual orientation.
    Which was linked to a sort of "deficiency" of some sort in that part of the brain.
    I wish i could find the source, i think it was from a program on the state tv channel where i live (NRK).

    Anyway, a quick google search on "homosexual brain scans" shows a bunch of articles go into depth about these kind of studies, here's one that is short on text (1).

    There is nobody here being disrespectful about homosexuality here, this is a discussion on the genetics.

    @mori Thx for link(1) btw, pretty good read.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  9. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I wasn't talking about defending but science behind the phenomenon.
    [​IMG]
    So are religion and other things until they clash publicly.
    Ad hominem much as your rep comment?
    I'm entitled to my opinions and whether you misunderstand them or not it's not my issue.
    Let me answer the same way. I neither know or care about your opinion on the matter but I care about this and it's why I want the discussion to flow peacefully without people like you giving unfounded one liners proposing the discussion should stop. If you don't want to participate don't. But don't imply everyone else also doesn't.
    Your arguments are only personal attacks. You have not contributed to this topic with anything than trying to prematurely cease it.
    So, if you don't like my posts, ignore them, big deal.
    Also, stop acting so full of yourself. You're not as smart as you think you are. Your superior tone is without backup.
    You don't know me so don't act like you do.

    Thank you.
     
  10. mori

    mori

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    What a shame.
     
  11. Spellbound

    Spellbound

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    Well, to be fair to map designer, the question isn't inherently problematic. Even though the underlying reason as to why someone might ask the question could be a negative one, it remains a scientific inquiry.

    I feel like this needs to be addressed even if this isn't the main point of this thread, it's sort of the next sequence to the main argument. I fundamentally dislike the idea that, "It's not a choice, therefore we should not be discriminated against because we don't choose this." Fair enough, but what if it was? So what? Should people be discriminated against because you did not choose the same thing they did? If two men choose to be intimate with one another, there is no impact to those outside this arrangement, and outside forces willing to disrupt this arrangement should understand that what they are willing to do is completely selfish and potentially harmful. I can understand the knee-jerk reaction to regard suspiciously something that is unlike oneself, but as an educated person, one should have enough clarity to understand when something does not concern them. It's bigotry.

    Disclaimer: I never read up on the actual science of (aka research papers) so what I'm about to say is more food for thought than an argument.

    We are comfortable with the idea that animals have certain sets of behaviours to the point that if we should disrupt them the animal could be negatively impacted in some way or another. To humans, however, this does not seem to apply because... we can ask existential questions? Because we can build things? Beavers can build things, but we still respect the specific way in which they live (or try to, anyway). We're very quick to think of ourselves as separate from the rest of the Terran fauna, and even though we are in many ways, that does not mean we somehow do not have a pre-programmed set of behaviours. We literally have an entire scientific field dedicated to the behaviour of humans beings (psychology) and probably a few more besides. Still, we don't understand why certain things happen to us and why we have responses that are illogical (mental illnesses, phobias, behavioural disorders, etc). Had we the power to make such powerful choices as to reorient something as fundamental as our sexuality we would be able to make other such decisions in our lives... and yet we are prone to failure to carry on with many of the decisions we make.

    My point is this: there are many, many things which we do not choose. We don't choose the genre of music we like. We don't choose the type of food we enjoy. We don't choose the type of movies we appreciate. Why, then, would the idea that people not choose their sexual orientations be so outlandish? Do straight people choose to be straight, or do heterosexual men just notice that women are sexually attractive. If you do not make a conscious decision, it's not a choice. That includes what the environment does to us - we also do not choose where we begin our lives. Most of us don't have the power to change that either.

    We have far less free will than we'd like to think, and the influence our genetics have on us goes vastly underappreciated. We are far from free of our base instincts.
     
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Are we living a movie?
    [​IMG]

    Didn't find the one I wanted but read (present) on Spinoza's philosophy regarding determinism.
     
  13. Spellbound

    Spellbound

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    Not that much into philosophy but that reminds me of the question of whether we live in a simulation. I saw a TED-Ed vid that looks at that question scientifically, so maybe not the angle you were going for but that's where my brain went.
    Are we living in a simulation?


    I don't read philosophers, but determinism just makes sense to me, and the reason why is just to think of the universe from the big bang (and even before, if before is a quality that can even be attributed to a pre-expansion universe) as an infinitely tumbling domino effect. If one had all the data in the universe, one can predict anything within the universe, if the universe is free from 'outside' influence. Therefore, it's all pre-ordained. Then again, how would you even obtain that, and calculate it? It's a nice theory but ultimately impractical. This is also going away from the core subject of this thread :>
     
  14. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Read about Leonard Susskind's work on the Holographic Model :p
    Well, we can't yet and who knows probably won't if the Sun goes extinct and we won't be able to harness energy and whatnot from other stars or if just some massive space body hits the Earth.
    Sorry. Thanks for the insights. Although we should connect more disciplines when science is not enough. Besides many ancient philosophical thoughts have been proven scientifically or have a strong basis.
    But OK, let's leave it to genetics then if the thread demands it :p
     
  15. loktar

    loktar

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    While the determining factors for sexuality are interesting from a scientific and academic standpoint, the underlying motivation for this thread is highly problematic.
    The question seems to be posed here to determine whether or not homosexuality is a choice, in which case a genetic cause for homosexuality would be an "argument in favor of homosexuality," which OP seems to believe gay people use to "justify" their sexuality.

    Homosexuality being a choice or not, however, is not a question for science. It's a question for homosexuals. If they tell us it's not a choice (which they do, if it needed to be said), then it is not. There is no way to scientifically prove this beyond that.
    Insisting that it is (or may be) a choice regardless, is frankly insulting to gay people and those who have loved ones that are gay.

    Lastly, I would like to repeat the point that even if it was a choice, it would still be no one else's business.
     
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    How can homosexuality be a choice? It's not a matter of preference say like when you're being bisexual and like having sex with the same sex more often.
     
  17. Map Designer

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    that is another topic. I find it trivial to prove that we have free well though. if we had no free well, there will be no point in punishing criminals.

    another example to show the triviality: im pretty sure you can differentiate my hands typing this message on the keyboard and understand that its different from a man whoze hand is shivering from the cold or from horror.

    @loktar it will always be interesting to understand human's mindset, and therefore will be part of my bussiness. as for your science statement: it has scientific question; if the it was something structured in the genes. I guess the little data I gave (if you read the OP) is enough to prove that homosexuality cannot be traced solely on the genes, which is my point in the first place.

    @Blackcat @Shar Dundred why would I leave them alone if they bring science to the table and draw try to spread false conlusions from the data? I thought for a while homosexuality is in the genes only to realise I have been lied to years later. its just a lie that ppl repeat thinking its scientific. its not.
     
  18. loktar

    loktar

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    It's good to be curious and to try to understand things, but it's important to remember that no one owes you an explanation or justification for their behaviour as long as it doesn't harm anyone.

    The twin studies you mentioned seem to demonstrate that sexual orientation is very significantly determined by genetics in some way, but they don't offer any insight into any other possible determining factors (I'll be honest, I didn't actually read the article/study, just what mentioned about it in OP).
    The main takeaway from that, in the context of this thread, is that sexual orientation is innate, and people don't have any control over it.

    Or maybe, and bear with me here, people share their own understanding of the scientific data, which may (or may not) be flawed or misinterpreted, or simply change and evolve with new studies and research, because scientific understanding of anything is by definition subject to change and revision.

    It does no good to assume dishonesty and malice. Giving people the benefit of the doubt is usually more constructive.

    I know, but my point is that the "cause" of homosexuality is not an argument at all. It's an explanation.

    Framing this as an argument implies that being gay is either valid or invalid. When you do that, you are making a moral or ethical statement.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  19. Mythic

    Mythic

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    Oh, we do have free will. No one's disputing that. After all, some use their free will not to read the articles they themselves link.



    This means you think some of it can be genetic - but in the first post, right after saying the same thing, you conclude:
    Is the urge to move the goalposts truly irresistible?
     
  20. FeelsGoodMan

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    Not to deviate too far from the topic here (I haven't ready any of the posts), but this is an interesting watch.