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The ability limit - Poll thread

Which system would you prefer for the spellbook?

  • Solution 1: always have all abilities, but abilities will be nested into ability chains

    Votes: 11 28.9%
  • Solution 2: mutual exclusive ability choices similar to the talent system

    Votes: 21 55.3%
  • Solution 3: custom asigned hotkeys and otherwise maintaining the status quo

    Votes: 9 23.7%

  • Total voters
    38
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Level 3
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
57
Squire Path.
Squire--------->Berserk. Current talent system
Squire--------->Crusader. Current talent system
you get to chose 3 talents every so many lvls etc. and you have current spells in book.
EXAMPLE
Squire Path. Talents--------------:
Squire-------->Berserk--no class change---->Warrior has different skills etc with different talents no relations to the others
Berserker ------different skills etc will have rage while others wont have rage
Guardsman----- different skills etc will have heavens edge while other wont

then so on if yall don't understand my current post ill explain it a bit better

im not a programmer so I wont know how hard to make this happen or know if you might even consider.
 

Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
Level 35
Joined
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Messages
7,236
So how can we make an underdog (besides dispel) a top dog when it still can be ignored through gameplay alone?
We can't. And that's the whole problem. If you try to overbalance, it will just break the game in those encounters where it matters.

But you don't need to make an underdog a topdog (I like that word) if you group them together with other underdogs. That's what solution 2 is coming from. Abilities only need to be balanced within the same pool.


Also, I think Box has a point when it comes to "top level progression". I didn't even think of that yet. What will be there to do after hitting level 50? Hunting items? It would definitly be cool to also be able to get new abilities in level 50 content. That's the huge downside of all the "pick X out of Y" systems: eventually, you will reach a point where you don't care about getting new skills anymore, simply because you already have your preferred playstyle.

If you can use all abilities you learn, that would always stirr stuff up and make the players learn new rotations or adapt. I like that.
 
Level 8
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Messages
551
SyaikoDeMoN if people had real legal versions of wc3. there shouldn't problems instead of going too bnet people are finding other ways to play illegally instead of going on bnet. thus you have all these group playing in different rooms, for me its not worth going garena or some other option thus I don't play with half of you. im surprised blizzard hasn't gone against these illegitimate versions.

What on earth are you talking about? Almost all groups playing gaias are using the official bots and the majority of us are playing through B.Net (Bnet and garena players all join THE SAME BOT anyway). You clearly don't understand how any of this works.

This doesn't even have anything to do with the thread topic AND you doubleposted AND that second post doesn't make any sort of sense. What exactly are you suggesting here? Why is this better than any of the current options, or any different than what TooMuch suggested? What do you want changed and what do you want kept the same? If you even glanced at the poll or OP you would realise this is practically option 2, mutually exclusive skill options but with no details.

Also, unofficial servers are obviously not sanctioned by blizzard, but as long as they are not distributing copies of the game there is technically no legal issue. You can use unoffical servers with legit copies of warcraft after all.

I didn't even think of that yet. What will be there to do after hitting level 50? Hunting items? It would definitly be cool to also be able to get new abilities in level 50 content.
I thought you were implementing a token system or something to buy advanced lvl50 stuff?
 
Level 21
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
3,232
Option 1 puts the onus on the player to play their character effectively, rather than make decisions effectively. I don't see why we shouldn't have access to all of the skills. How you actually effectively manage to play your character is where your "customization" comes into play.

On top of this, if we combine it with option two in a sort of way, you can really make alternative builds more viable. Such as forcing to pick between AOE intelligence Crusader, or selecting skills that suit a single target strength build instead.

The problem lies within the future when we get more and more spells. We can sort of have the best of both worlds right now with 11 spells. When we get 14 we may be in a "Decent" area to actually build something more specific, but what after that? What happens if we get to 20 spells to choose from? We're going to be required to be respecing ALL of the time if we want to use all of the spells available to us. Especially since, as Zwieb pointed out, balancing these spells together is going to get ridiculous. We'll end up replacing crucify with some stronger AOE spell, and essentially create a ton of dead content spells.

Option 1 is really the only way to truly generate a future-proof system that allows for us to continually get progression, without creating a ton of useless dead previous content. Your actual play style comes into play, rather than pre-emptive decision making, and should hopefully make encounters much more difficult and strategic. Im really not sure where the disapproval or downside comes from.

How you actually play is something that's always there. Removing a piece of strategy from this game doesn't change that all so much, except that it dumbs builds down. So option 1 removes a huge part of the game to slightly boost one part that doesn't need boosting.

Why would I even want access to every single spell all the time? Atm what we have is hidden subclasses that are based on what the player wants. You can put focus on different aspects of your kit and this defines your "true" class. Being able to do everything is the antithesis of a roleplaying game.
Hey, I know. Let's just remove all classes and give everyone the same spells. This would completely fix any problem of one class being favored over another.

Assuming bad content design is just unfair. Why would Zwieb create copies of existing spells that are basically the same, but just stronger? That's a strawman really.
In any case, if 2 abilities really do similar things, there are most likely some diversifying factors as well. If there aren't then that's a design issue and it can't be fixed by throwing parts of the game out.
 

Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
Level 35
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Messages
7,236
I thought you were implementing a token system or something to buy advanced lvl50 stuff?
I discarded that idea to give gold and MC more purposes instead. It makes no sense to implement a third resource before the first two are used to the fullest.

@Topic:
It seems that there is a strong trend towards solution 2 visible from the poll.
While that wasn't my favorite idea (I liked the implications of idea 1), I can understand why people vote for that. It just preserves more of the customization and it might also turn out to be much easier to explain, especially for new players.
 
Level 4
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
75
I voted option 2, but after voting, some comments of the users conviced me that character progression is more important that character customization and talents that improves certain skills should be enough for making certain "underdogs" more "topdogs" depending on user playstyle.
Maybe the right option is, by example, give stat based talents every 4 levels and skill upgrade talents every 6 levels and have access to all spells. I think most of us agree on that skill upgrade talents tends to me more awesome or interesting that stats based ones.
Also, I preffer to only chose 8 or less spells instead of 9, it makes choices even harder.
Another example: Maybe we can give to Dispel Magic a talent upgrade that make it "Absorb Magic" and works the same but if it succesfully dispeled something, gives mana back to its owner. It could be more interesting.
 
Level 2
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Oct 19, 2015
Messages
15
Without much thinking I voted for option no. 3, as other seemed to lack something important and it is the only one that makes any sense, even though it doesn't fix anything.

However, after some thinking I really started to think about option no. 1. However, in a kinda different way. Way have 3 different abilities chained together? Wouldn't it be easier to have only one that would be upgraded at vendors/mentors/however you call it or via talents? This way slots would be saved and some of the less-used abilities could have their use, as there would be a way to strengthen them.

Example: Squire since beginning has Hateful Strike and Taunt. At first ability vendor he could buy an upgrade for Hateful, making it also deal DoT damage (a.k.a "Gaping Wounds upgrade"). Then at level 5 he could choose to either lengthen the DoT damage or make the initial damage higher - and so on. Of course some of his later abilities like Shield Slam would still use another slot, but that's only because they work differently.

So to conclude, it would be similar to Zwieb's solution no. 1, but it would look better in game. Hope I helped ya with the brainstorming.
 

Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
Level 35
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Messages
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Example: Squire since beginning has Hateful Strike and Taunt. At first ability vendor he could buy an upgrade for Hateful, making it also deal DoT damage (a.k.a "Gaping Wounds upgrade"). Then at level 5 he could choose to either lengthen the DoT damage or make the initial damage higher - and so on. Of course some of his later abilities like Shield Slam would still use another slot, but that's only because they work differently.

So to conclude, it would be similar to Zwieb's solution no. 1, but it would look better in game. Hope I helped ya with the brainstorming.
That would basicly be the status quo, just with 2 abilities removed from the game so that everyone uses the same ones.
 
Level 1
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Oct 16, 2015
Messages
283
How you actually play is something that's always there. Removing a piece of strategy from this game doesn't change that all so much, except that it dumbs builds down. So option 1 removes a huge part of the game to slightly boost one part that doesn't need boosting.

Why would I even want access to every single spell all the time? Atm what we have is hidden subclasses that are based on what the player wants. You can put focus on different aspects of your kit and this defines your "true" class. Being able to do everything is the antithesis of a roleplaying game.
Hey, I know. Let's just remove all classes and give everyone the same spells. This would completely fix any problem of one class being favored over another.

Assuming bad content design is just unfair. Why would Zwieb create copies of existing spells that are basically the same, but just stronger? That's a strawman really.
In any case, if 2 abilities really do similar things, there are most likely some diversifying factors as well. If there aren't then that's a design issue and it can't be fixed by throwing parts of the game out.
:thumbs_up:
 
Level 3
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Mar 11, 2011
Messages
57
PychoDemon Topic

what are you people thinking? If the map doesn't keep the casual player in mind, we'll get no new players. As it is, the gaias player base is tiny, you think we can really afford to make this an elitist map? You have to think of what the average player can handle when it comes to interface and systems. As far as people not playing the map anymore after level and gear max... Yeah. In general, that is supposed to happen. Gaias does not yet have a replayability system like legendary dungeon mode yet.

@syaikodemon if people had real legal versions of wc3. There shouldn't problems instead of going too bnet people are finding other ways to play illegally instead of going on bnet. Thus you have all these group playing in different rooms, for me its not worth going garena or some other option thus i don't play with half of you. Im surprised blizzard hasn't gone against these illegitimate versions.

what on earth are you talking about? Almost all groups playing gaias are using the official bots and the majority of us are playing through b.net (bnet and garena players all join the same bot anyway). You clearly don't understand how any of this works.

what are you talking about..im talking about your post clearly you forgot

this doesn't even have anything to do with the thread topic and you doubleposted and that second post doesn't make any sort of sense. What exactly are you suggesting here? Why is this better than any of the current options, or any different than what toomuch suggested? What do you want changed and what do you want kept the same? If you even glanced at the poll or op you would realise this is practically option 2, mutually exclusive skill options but with no details.

this has to do with your post and not the topic cause your post isn't about the topic. And i know it didn't make any sense what why i even said
so on if yall don't understand my current post ill explain it a bit better
never said it was so much better let's not get too excited

also, unofficial servers are obviously not sanctioned by blizzard but as long as they are not distributing copies of the game there is technically no legal issue. You can use unoffical servers with legit copies of warcraft after all.

your post is a contradiction. blizzard does not approve of private servers but legal people do play on them due to other reasons, but illegal players also too which are casuals. where do you think these illegals got copys of this game ? a non distributable source?
i don't mean to offend you i want what's best for you
Its me Little Tim
 
Last edited:
Level 2
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Oct 19, 2015
Messages
15
That would basicly be the status quo, just with 2 abilities removed from the game so that everyone uses the same ones.

You misunderstood me. It was just an example, or I'd even dare to say only a draft of what I had in my mind.


The player starts with two skills - Hateful strike and Taunt. After getting to the first ability vendor in Riversdale, he would have an option to buy a new skill, Parry, but also to upgrade the Hateful Strike he already has. It would read as followed:

Hateful Strike -> Hateful Wound
Upgrades the skill "Hateful Strike" so that it also deals Attack Power x 2 Physical Damage over time.

Thus, the skill's name in the spellbook would change from "Hateful Strike" to "Hateful Wound" (still thinking on a better name of it), as well as the icon and description would change.

From world bosses (pre-ogres) there would be a drop named "Hateful Strike -> Revengeful Strike (Squire)" It would read:

Hateful Strike -> Revengeful Strike
Upgrades the skill "Hateful Strike" so that it deals additional Attack Power x 3 Physical Damage.

After getting to the second ability vendor on the Trade Route, he would have an option to buy a new skill, Shield Slam.

This way instead of using 6 slots one would use only 4 of them, and we're talking about pre-adv class.


I can do summaries like this for other classses and adv classes too if ya want :wink:
 

Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
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Messages
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I can do summaries like this for other classses and adv classes too if ya want :wink:
... so at level 50 I end up with giant skill monstrosities with tooltips the size of russia?
Don't get me wrong; I see your point, but it's just that this idea doesn't feel like it was thought through entirely.
 
Level 2
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... so at level 50 I end up with giant skill monstrosities with tooltips the size of russia?
Don't get me wrong; I see your point, but it's just that this idea doesn't feel like it was thought through entirely.

Psionic blade... Summons...

Also there is a fix for that. You could make a new 'backpack' consisting only of current abilities' descriptons and leave the descriptions in spellbook blank or with notes to check the "description list". By the way, I thought about upgrading a skill max. 3 times and not anything close to 6 or so, as you're implying.
 
Level 7
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Messages
208
Hmm, I want to share another idea to think about: strategic and tactical customization. So, what I mean?

Strategic customization is decisions that make core of playstyle. They are limited, persistant and costly. Theorycrafting is based on strategic planning, also cookie cutter builds calculated from this point. Items, talents, stats - these things are strategical.

Tactical customization is decisions that player do when playing. They are fast, situational and skilled. Guides are based on tactical planning, also player's skill is based on knowing game mechanics and using them correctly.

So, I can assume that Gaias have plenty of strategic decisions (talents, skills, items) and almost nothing tactical (only soul system, and some resist items, but backpack limits it).
Some games don't bother about it and just add big pack of skills to choose for every situation and bigger backpack to have different item setups. Warcraft 3 doesn't allow such luxury - only 11 buttons for all and 6 backpack slots.
But...
Other games choose another way: reduce number of buttons and add for player way to customize them easily in preparation mode. If I remember correctly, Diablo III use this system.
Here is a good example of this approach: Forced
http://store.steampowered.com/app/249990/
Each player have 1+3 ability slots and 3 passive slots. Available slots and things to choose from are based on player's progression during challenges (some kind of level).
ss_820a5e804c2326ed975cda64d78b2bd5f0a35863.jpg
You can change skils/passives layout easily between challenges, but during challenge you can not change anything. It's pretty balanced and adds nice depth to challenges: some skills will help you beat the time, others will help to achieve additional goals, also new skills will help you complete challenges that was hard with earlier skills. And you always can change party setup and adjust builds for new tactics.

Such type of tactical customization could make Gaias more interesting and solve utility/cooldown abilities problems. But all three solutions doesn't provide it in full size:
1 - closest to this idea, but all tactical planning removed because everything is available, player's skill and feeling of rotation/cooldowns are added to tactical decisions.
2 - purely strategic decisions, will drive players into the frames and make 1-2 cookie cutter builds per class.
3 - again strategic decisions, but with some customization for hotkeys. Theoretically could be a good base for Forced-like abilities system.
 
Level 9
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599
Well here's my suggestion for Option 2 with all the classes except for Mystic, I was at a loss there... this again takes into consideration of releasing new skills along with the planned ones, some ( probably a lot is) is pretty arbitrary and is probably pretty broken, I tried to match up spells without hotkeys and spells that are similar in use or have opposite uses like soul strike and heal

Squire:
Hateful Strike <-> Aggrivating Strike (Ap X 1.2/High threat/12sec cd)
Shield Slam <-> Gaping Wounds
Taunt <-> Defend (+armor/allr -movespeed/attackspeed)
Parry <-> Heroic Pressence
Revenge

Berserker:
Berserker Rage <-> Boiling Blood
Heaven's Edge <-> Shied Charge (Ap X 2 in line/req shield)
Lightning Blade <-> Backhand
Demo Shout <-> Intimidating Howl

Crusader:
Clestial zeal <-> Unyielding Zeal
Guardian Angel <-> Emergency
Crucify <-> Shield Assault (channel, more damage each time single target)
Shiled Throw <-> Pummel


Cleric:
Heal <-> Soul Strike
Symbol of Fury <-> Haste (increase spellhaste)
Confidence <-> Ressurection
Crippling Curse <-> Bless (increase heals received)
Burst of Light

Bishop:
Mend <-> Divine Protection
Plane Shift <-> Protective Seal
Flash of Light <-> Soul Eruption
Dispel Magic <-> Healing Burst (aoe heal long cast time)

Monk:
Steel Body <-> Divine Fist (change to dps toggle to do some spell damage with each hit)
Provoke <-> Body and Mind
Stone Skin <-> Blazing Fists
Shattering Strike <-> Soul Counter (1 X sp enemey that hits you for 4 secs)


Thief:
Backstab <-> Sever (ap X .7 -mspd 8 seconds)
Embrittling Acid <-> Dazing Trap
Steal <-> Blitzing Elixer (+aspd -hp)
Blurred Motions <-> Sweeping Blades
Stealth

Assassin:
Into the Shades <-> Shadow Image
Quick Strike <-> Coup De Grace
Bladefury <-> Venemous Blades
Explosive Trap <-> Ice Trap Ap X 1.5 slows enemies

Bard:
Song of Peace <-> Song of Vigor (main stat?)
Song of Elements <-> Song of Dread (magic/poison/shadow)
Hymn of Heroes <-> Chorus (SP X (2+ 1.33) per stack)
Dancing Blade <-> Inspire


Ranger:
Ensnare <-> Remedy
Barbed Arrow <-> Protect (SoN takes damage instead of the caster)
Flaming Arrow <-> Poisoned Arrow add damage per cast
Feline Reflexes <-> Claw Strike
Servant of Nature

Hunter:
Beast Fury <-> Summon Flacon
Multishot <-> Explosive Load
Magic Arrow <-> Frost Arrow
Pack Leader(buff) <-> Reload (resets arrow abilities)

Druid:
Nature's Blessing <-> Ancestral Guidance
Summon Nymph <-> Summon Efreet
Recovery <-> Balance of Life
Life Infusion <-> Corruption (toggle causes Remedy/Nature's blessing to deal damage to enemies, but halves SP)


Magician:
Fireball <-> Water Globes
Fire Shield <-> Frost Cage
Magic Missle <-> Lightning Blast aoe
Dispel Magic <-> Mana Ring (creates an area where mana costs are reduced for allies within the area by 1 mp, high mp cost?)
Meteor

Sorcerer:
Incinerate <-> Water Elemental
Lightning Charge <-> Arcane Blast (spammable magic spell with high crit chance)
Spell Mirror <-> Ice Nova
Nether Walk <-> Gravity Pull

Necromancer:
Summon Skeleton <-> Dark Funnel
Skeleton Mage <-> Vile Disease
Detonating Bones <-> Curse of the Vampire
New Planned Spell <-> Shambling Skeleton (low mp cost, lasts about 15 seconds doesn't attack, is meant for using spells like detonating bones through)
 
Level 5
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Description

Okay, I think I got it down to what I was trying to explain.

So take this only as an example and nothing more. The added ability effects I wrote in there are just ones I thought of (hopefully) to better show what I meant. Most of these effects are from the original tree anyways.

Notice, these are just concerning abilities and not any base stats of your character. That is concerned with the other talent tree, which would improve your: health, attack speed, move speed, armor bonuses, mana bonuses, any base stat values...etc.
I would've put in the other values on the other tree but... I wasn't sure.

On a side note, I picked crusader cause I know the class better than the others. And hopefully this doesn't seem atrocious or overpowered to you zwieb.
 

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Level 10
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For the most part Ihaz I liked the pairs you did for solution 2 but there are a couple I don't necessarily agree with such as:

Squire:
Taunt <-> Defend (+armor/allr -movespeed/attackspeed)
- EDIT: I guess this one's okay...I just feel if you're going to tank you might want both of those but I guess that's the point of a trade up


Bishop:
Mend <-> Divine Protection
- I understand the reasoning on why these are paired but even though Mend in its own right is an amazing skill just don't see many people actually taking it over divine protection. I think the main purpose of these pairings is to try and find two equally great skills that can offer something very different to the other player. Pairing two abilities in a similar field sounds almost counter-productive. It just makes that role worse overall on every front which is also my gripe with the taunt/defend pairing.

Monk:
- Most of the monk pairings, albeit trying to find a good pairing for monks will be hard. Your pairings kind of separate you into specing into either a tank or a dps but the problem is in order to tank on a monk you need dps too. Every spell is so crucial on a monk and will be hard to find good pairings I think.

Bard:
Song of Peace <-> Song of Vigor (main stat?)
- Bard pairing I think is also going to be difficult to find a good pairing up in the sense their primary purpose is a buffer but solution 2 is going to leave them stuck with 5 'non-typical' bard spells, more than half. The pairing above hits the hardest I think though, but I agree it makes the most sense. This issue doesn't affect other classes as much but it takes a big hit I think on bards universal role in the group. They'll be a sub-par dps at best with even less buffs to offer.

Druid:
Summon Nymph <-> Summon Efreet
- While I don't personally use the talent, this would screw up the 'allow both minions out at the same time' talent.


In summery:

I really liked a lot of the pairings you did and I think it's a solid start, but I think we must think of a few points:
1. Each class is going to be forced into 5 starting class spells but only 4 advanced class spells. Perhaps we should consider 3 pairing some starting class spells together to allow a 4 spell /5 spell end class ratio as opposed to the current 5 to 4 spell ratio.
2. When pairing spells together I think we should try to avoid pairing like-minded abilities. It will only hinder/cripple that role on the class. Instead we need to try and pair them with equally good spells that offer something completely different. In essence you will be comparing different role abilities on the same class. A dps bishop to a holy bishop. This gives players to spec strictly in 'one tree' as opposed to the other, but also gives them the option to hybrid how they see best fit.
 
Level 9
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599
Yeah, the idea was to have similiar spells up against each other so the trade off is either temp aggro or more tankiness at the cost of damage, and with the Monk part you're not stuck on one side or the other, and with Bard you can only have one buff on a person at a time (2 with the talent) and you're only losing out on one song total with this arrangement for now, with even more spells coming out later it'd sort itself out, I'd imagine
 
Level 2
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Oct 19, 2015
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I underatand parings for bishop like

Heal <-> Soul Strike

Because it basically means "Yo dawg, ya either dps or heal", but not ones like

Confidence <-> Ressurection

Let's ckmpare those skills. Confidence is resistance and evade buff, which is crucial for some bosses, especially the first buff (FL, Cave). Ressurection, however, is an awesome spell despite where it is used. Someone mid-game died while fighting too strong mobs? No problem, res! Died at D3 while levrling? Res! Too much aggro on DPS and tank was stunned? I can always res ya! What I mean is that this choice is BS, as both skills are very important. It's kind of something like what S0ul said with Monk spells. Kinda.
 
Level 7
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379
Instead of pairing specific utility spells, I'd almost rather force us to have 3 "utility spell slots" or something, where we can choose up to 3 utility spells to work. Then the other 6 slots would be for choices between damage spells. Numbers could be worked around a bit differently with certain classes, like Bard, where almost all of her skills are essentially utilities.
 
Level 2
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Instead of pairing specific utility spells, I'd almost rather force us to have 3 "utility spell slots" or something, where we can choose up to 3 utility spells to work. Then the other 6 slots would be for choices between damage spells. Numbers could be worked around a bit differently with certain classes, like Bard, where almost all of her skills are essentially utilities.

9 skills is basically something we want to avoid because of the clusterfuck of hotkeyes there already is. However, this leads me to another suggestion:

What if there would be a file in GaiasRetaliation folder, where one could set hotkeys for specific skills? Then it would be used as a database for the map, from where it would read specific values and assign the to the skills in game? This is probably the easiest solution to the hotkey clusterfuck, I think.
 
Level 7
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379
Lol, you just suggested option 3.

The whole purpose of option 2 is for skills of the same group would share the same hotkey so you can have more potential skills without needing to assign completely new hotkeys to every spell possibility.
 

Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
Level 35
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Messages
7,236
Okay, I think I got it down to what I was trying to explain.

So take this only as an example and nothing more. The added ability effects I wrote in there are just ones I thought of (hopefully) to better show what I meant. Most of these effects are from the original tree anyways.

Notice, these are just concerning abilities and not any base stats of your character. That is concerned with the other talent tree, which would improve your: health, attack speed, move speed, armor bonuses, mana bonuses, any base stat values...etc.
I would've put in the other values on the other tree but... I wasn't sure.
So basicly bring back the same old flawed stat point system? Nah. I'm glad that it's gone.

In summery:

I really liked a lot of the pairings you did and I think it's a solid start, but I think we must think of a few points:
1. Each class is going to be forced into 5 starting class spells but only 4 advanced class spells. Perhaps we should consider 3 pairing some starting class spells together to allow a 4 spell /5 spell end class ratio as opposed to the current 5 to 4 spell ratio.
2. When pairing spells together I think we should try to avoid pairing like-minded abilities. It will only hinder/cripple that role on the class. Instead we need to try and pair them with equally good spells that offer something completely different. In essence you will be comparing different role abilities on the same class. A dps bishop to a holy bishop. This gives players to spec strictly in 'one tree' as opposed to the other, but also gives them the option to hybrid how they see best fit.
Some really nice ideas you had there. I like some of the spell suggestions; however, here are my thoughts on solution 2 in general:
The ability distribution should be 4/5, not 5/4. In other words: only 4 base class skills and up to 5 advanced class skills.
I also wouldn't think about advanced class pairings yet, for the simple reason that none of the abilities I posted as a preview for 1.3 are set into stone already. I mean; as soon as I decided for the future of the ability system, it would be smart to create new abilities already with the new ability system in mind, so that they fit into it neatly.

And I think that both ways of pairings are valid: pair two "similar" spells and let the player pick what they like more (like the mend vs divine protection choice) OR pair two completely different spells with each other (DPS vs. Heal) ... I think solution 2 should have both "types" for every character. Always pairing different spells with each other would be boring and always pairing two similar spells would lead to many "dead weight" abilities. A good mixture of both would be the best imho.
Also, remember that I can always put in some redundancy by new abilities.
For example: didn't pick "Heal" on the Cleric? Well, you still have the option to take "Flash of Light" as Bishop!
Redundancy with the same skills would feel lame, so this would require some new abilities like the Heal/Flash of Light example.
What if there would be a file in GaiasRetaliation folder, where one could set hotkeys for specific skills? Then it would be used as a database for the map, from where it would read specific values and assign the to the skills in game? This is probably the easiest solution to the hotkey clusterfuck, I think.
This is technically impossible and pretty much solution 3 anyway.
 
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Level 5
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I do not see how you get the old point system out of my last post. Was it just that one phrase of "base stat values" that threw it away?

lol lets see what happens then.
 
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And I think that both ways of pairings are valid: pair two "similar" spells and let the player pick what they like more (like the mend vs divine protection choice) OR pair two completely different spells with each other (DPS vs. Heal) ... I think solution 2 should have both "types" for every character. Always pairing different spells with each other would be boring and always pairing two similar spells would lead to many "dead weight" abilities. A good mixture of both would be the best imho.
Also, remember that I can always put in some redundancy by new abilities.
For example: didn't pick "Heal" on the Cleric? Well, you still have the option to take "Flash of Light" as Bishop!
Redundancy with the same skills would feel lame, so this would require some new abilities like the Heal/Flash of Light example.

Now obviously there is not enough spells for this and this suggestion won't be implemented probably for a very, very, very, VERY long time, if even at all, but if you are thinking of pairing both similar spells and opposite spells together then I think the magic number is a grouping of 4 abilities per choice. 2 for each 'role' that way the player has the option to choose like-minded abilities which they prefer as well as something completely different & still having the option to choose something else as well.

Pairing four spells to a choice would cause some issues (which is why this is a hypothetical WAY down the road suggestion):

1. There is simply just not enough spells in the game. Even if you only gave 4 options per advanced class that's still 20 new abilities per class which imho is way too much.
2. You might get MORE dead-weight spells having 4 spell choices obviously some won't get used as often as others.
3. I'm not sure how creating so many spells would affect the save/load file.


The reason I suggest such a preposterous idea though is because:

1. Forcing the player to pair similar spells (such as Mend or Divine Shield) still forces the player to play a certain type of role they might not necessarily want to do. If all 8 of their other spells focuses on some other aspect of the game but this one pairing doesn't it just feels a little out of place in my eyes. That is why the magical pairing of 4 spells works best. You have the choice of roles, and a choice of which spell fits that role best.
2. This is a system designed for the future of Gaias, not the Gaias of now.

Now I don't believe EVERY spell should have a 4 spell pairing, but on the ones where you want to pair like-minded abilities together should be paired with opposite role spells too, even if it's only three, to at least give the player some more freedoms in the roles they choose for themselves. A choice of maybe even 3 roles or a dps role choice, a holy choice, and a hybrid choice spell. As you mentioned you could always add some redundancy in spells too i.e. "Flash of Light" & "Heal" but I agree these redundancies shouldn't be over done either.
 
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Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
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Now obviously there is not enough spells for this and this suggestion won't be implemented probably for a very, very, very, VERY long time
Not neccesarily. I would obviously design this system with future expandability in mind. Which means I can add more spells to each choice later on with just a single line of code.
With the currently planned layout (4 choices per base class and 5 choices per advanced class), this would mean that I don't actually *need* new spells for this to work, simply because we only have 4 advanced class spells per class currently, so you can get them all.
This would mean that you only have 2 spells to pick at each base class choice and 1 spell to pick at each advanced choice (and nothing to pick once).
The "nothing to pick" choice would obviously be filled up as soon as I implement this; making a new skill per class is long overdue anyway.

Actual choices (as in 2 or more) for the advanced class skills can be added later on. For now, it would be fine with a mandatory pick per choice.
I can always change the order later on. So bishops would in the first iteration be able to pick both mend and divine shield on different choices, until I have more abilities to fill up the choices (and eventually group them together in the same choice ... or not. It's a balancing decision I can apply based on the metagame at that time).

if even at all, but if you are thinking of pairing both similar spells and opposite spells together then I think the magic number is a grouping of 4 abilities per choice. 2 for each 'role' that way the player has the option to choose like-minded abilities which they prefer as well as something completely different & still having the option to choose something else as well.
This is very far into the future, but yes. ;)

2. You might get MORE dead-weight spells having 4 spell choices obviously some won't get used as often as others.
Yes, but this is more or less because certain playstyles will always be more popular than others. For example, pure DPS bishops or DPS monks will rarely be played.
That was never really my gripe with the ability system... I accepted that as a neccesity for the holy trinity gameplay. My gripe was always with certain spells being an auto-skip for utility spells at any build.
Balancing 4 spells with each other in that regard seems like a managable task. At least it's much easier than balancing ALL spells with each other.

And even if a certain playstyle forces having some skills: with redundancy, I can still allow options here (as my Heal vs Flash of Light example demonstrates).

3. I'm not sure how creating so many spells would affect the save/load file.
It wouldn't. Actually, the save code will probably remain the same in length. Instead of saving 14 binary choices (11 skills + 3 reserved as a "yes or no" choice), I would save 4 base-3 choices and 5 base-5 choices.

2^14 = 16384 = 5 digits* (or less)
3^4 * 5^5 = 253125 = 6 digits* (or less)

*this applies to a base-10 encoding. Gaias uses base-62.

The reason I suggest such a preposterous idea though is because:

1. Forcing the player to pair similar spells (such as Mend or Divine Shield) still forces the player to play a certain type of role they might not necessarily want to do.
Obviously, pairing similar spells should only be done for spells that are still useful, regardless of playstyle... crippling curse is such a candidate for me. Every cleric uses it, no matter if they heal, DPS or tank.

If all 8 of their other spells focuses on some other aspect of the game but this one pairing doesn't it just feels a little out of place in my eyes. That is why the magical pairing of 4 spells works best. You have the choice of roles, and a choice of which spell fits that role best.
2. This is a system designed for the future of Gaias, not the Gaias of now.
I concur. It needs more spells, but this doesn't mean it wouldn't work even with the current selection.
I'd say it would already work nicely with just the 3 new spells per class that are planned for 1.2C anyway.

Now I don't believe EVERY spell should have a 4 spell pairing, but on the ones where you want to pair like-minded abilities together should be paired with opposite role spells too, even if it's only three, to at least give the player some more freedoms in the roles they choose for themselves. A choice of maybe even 3 roles or a dps role choice, a holy choice, and a hybrid choice spell. As you mentioned you could always add some redundancy in spells too i.e. "Flash of Light" & "Heal" but I agree these redundancies shouldn't be over done either.
The goal (for now with our very limited spell choice) should be to pair abilities in a way that players can build viable specs for the roles the class can take.
So if certain choices are no brainers for now (as they are defined by the class role, like ditching heal as a monk) until more spells are added, that is absolutely fine to me.
I just don't want to code dozens of new spells before changing the ability system anyway.
I'd rather change the system now and THEN build new spells around it instead of changing the system later and then having to apply changes to these spells so that they fit in context.
 
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I'd rather change the system now and THEN build new spells around it instead of changing the system later and then having to apply changes to these spells so that they fit in context.

Hey, I am pretty much new to this patch, have played this map lots of times ago, just want to make a suggestion on this!

Consider I know nothing of coding nor anything on map making, just giving the idea from my mind with no clue if it is hard or not to make.

This is directed to solution 2.

About making it more viable to changing the system, you can add ability enhancing passives along with spell choices so players really have choices to make while you plan and add more abilities to the new system.

I mean, you can already implement it, but instead of setting 3 spells per choice, you can add 1 current spell + 1 ability enhancing + something, so you can "easily" replace these passives with new spells on the long run.

That is my idea, at least to make it less stressing to create creative spells out of nowhere atm.
 
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Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
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Just a small status update since I haven't posted any news for some days now:

I am currently working on making this new ability system a reality and almost finished all the mechanics that go into this. I'm quite happy with how it turned out; looks neat and I could also implement it so that ability buttons always match the keyboard layout.

So if a learned ability uses hotkey W, it will always be in the second slot from the left in the upper row. An ability with hotkey F will be in the rightmost slot in row 2, etc. ...

I changed a lot of hotkeys to match the new layout. Frequently used abilities are now on QWER and DF, which are easily reachable for a left hand resting on the keyboard. Less frequently used abilities are on A, S and Z.
If you happen to use a QWERTZ or AZERTY keyboard, you can use a keybind tool match the layout with your keyboard (or simply switch to english layout via taskbar).

Also, the design is quite intuitive: you have an extra button inside the spellbook that allows you to select your abilities in "tiers" like you can with the talent system. Selecting these abilities will cost gold, similar to how you had to invest gold to obtain the abilities in the old system.
This is just a temporary feature. I decided to keep the gold cost in for now because the game is lacking gold sinks throughout the leveling process.

Once I implement new gold sinks for the early and midgame (like a gem or upgrade system for weapons/armors), the gold cost for abilities might be removed. And yes, this also means that there are no more ability scrolls in the game. However, I intend to add something new to the game there to keep some farming elements in.


I decided for a 4/5 ability distribution, which means that you can only select 4 out of the 7 currently existing base class abilities. Since there are only 4 advanced class abilities in the game yet, the fifth advanced ability choice will actually be part of the next update aswell.
I also consider adding at least one new base class ability to each class, so that the 4 base class choices will have 2 options to select from each.

So, uh... yeah ... new abilities incoming!
 

Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
Level 35
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System finished.

It will be released as soon as I have implemented the 1 new base class ability and 1 new advanced class ability per class (more abilities will come after the release of 1.2C).

Here's some screenshots from it ingame; note how the abilities will always stick to the right slot now that corresponds with the QWER ASDF Z keyboard layout.

Btw, feel free to contribute a cooler icon for the ability learner button instead of the yellow plus...


PS: I have also another cool new feature in the making for you guys that will ship together with the new ability system. This will finally add the long overdue gold sink element to the game.
 

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Level 5
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Oh my god, I cant wait for this! Amazing, I've always hated the odd combination of hotkeys compared to spell position, great job! Looks well nice as well!
 
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New system looks cool, but what do you think about class change quest? Some builds will not fit for it (thief w/o stealth, cleric w/o heal, squire w/o two interrupts) and some will be harder (less elemental spells for mage, less protection/damage skills for mystic).

I see simple and elegant solution here: just allow player reset talents and skills for free at (any?) guildmaster when this quest is active. Something like 'Help me to prepare for my mission' button.

You can also check player's skills before quest start and say him that he will 100% fail quest with this build, for example:
- "It's a 'delicate' mission, how you will sneak behind guards if you can not Stealth? Go back to your guildmaster and learn something!"
- "Our forces need a HEALER now, how you can help if you can not Heal even a scratch?! Return to your guildmaster and learn how to be a real cleric!"
- "It's a total madness man! I will not let you go to the arena without good defence. Go to your guildmaster, pick up a shield, learn Shield Slam with Hateful Strike and return to me. Dismiss!"


Also a bit about ability choices. It's a final version? (Just 1 new skill will be added for first choice)
Squire:
Hateful Strike (starting skill)
Taunt <--> Revenge
Shield Slam <--> Gaping Wounds
Parry <--> Heroic Presence


Cleric:
Soul Strike (starting skill)
Heal <--> Crippling Curse
Burst of Light <--> Ressurection
Symbol of Fury <--> Confidence


Magician:
Fireball (starting Skill)
Water Globes <--> Magic Missile
Frost Cage <--> Fire Shield
Dispel Magic <--> Meteor Strike


Thief:
Stealth (starting skill)
Backstab <--> Sweeping Blades (lower cd?)
Embrittling Acid <--> Dazing Trap
Steal <--> Blurred Motions


Ranger:
Servant of Nature (starting skill)
Flaming Arrow <--> Feline Reflexes
Claw Strike <--> Barbed Arrow
Ensnare <--> Remedy


Mystic:
Twisting Metal (starting skill)
Bursting Touch <--> Jolting Strikes
Distracting Weapon <--> Draining Timber
Liquified Arms <--> Imbue Armor
Mystic, Ranger and Squire looks good, but remaining classes... Maybe change some pairings?


Thief ('sneaky bastard' vs 'face puncher'):
Backstab <--> [New damage skill, just good AP scaling and low CD]
Stealth <--> Steal (actually it's a robbery, cause it works with <50% target's HP :)
Dazing Trap <--> Embrittling Acid
Blurred Motions <--> Sweeping Blades (lower cd?)


Cleric:
Heal <--> Soul Strike
Symbol of Fury <--> Ressurection
Crippling Curse <--> [Dispel?]
Burst of Light <--> Confidence


Magician:
Fireball <--> Water Globes
Frost Cage <--> Dispel Magic
Magic Missile <--> [Chanelling magic damage spell? maybe manaburn]
Fire Shield <--> Meteor Strike
 

Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
Level 35
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Messages
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The ability pairings are already decided (and implemented) in the latest internal build; and no, they don't match the preview layout 100%.

About the quests:
None of these quests are autofail if the user doesn't have the right build:
you can actually nuke your way through the cleric quest with good gear and pulling aggro from most zombies, then kiting them around.
You can also finish the thief quest without stealth, you just need to keep a larger distance to the guards.
And last but not least: you can beat the Arena without having both shield slam and hateful. In fact, having only one of these skills is enough.

Yes, these quests are *a lot* harder without the correct builds. But they are not impossible, so I kind of don't feel the need to hold the player's hands here.


Also, the skills that are great in these quests are all in the low-cost tiers. In fact, hateful and heal are both first tier choices at level 1 (which means they are free).
 
Level 8
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After playing Blade and Soul the past week, I can now say beyond a shadow of a doubt: we have missed out greatly by not having nested abilities.
 

Zwiebelchen

Hosted Project GR
Level 35
Joined
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Messages
7,236
After playing Blade and Soul the past week, I can now say beyond a shadow of a doubt: we have missed out greatly by not having nested abilities.
Well, democracy has spoken. ;)

But don't worry, I'll do my best to fill these choices with meaningful life. The new ability layout is already much better than the old ever was.
 
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