SupCom: Icy Oasis (v21)

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

I would like to draw your attention here. In my previous game there were experimental vs experimental battles all around and fatboys were just.... high tech tanks that never die. There were 3 fatboys on each side and every side kept repairing the fatboy resulting in an endless cycle of fatboy bombing. Now it was actually quite fun seeing experimentals fight each other (The battle also involved other t4) it was kinda weird how one fatboy backed up with 5 engineers can tank the fire of 4 or 5 fatboys comfortably.

I have saved the replay so if you wish to take a look I will send it to you.

lol? i said its fixed, so what do i need a replay? i just multiplied the fatboys hp with 100 for testing reasons and forgot to restore it

and why dont players leave? because i chat with them.. if they say i should not kill them yet i dont kill them yet, i answer their questions, tell them in the very beginning of the game that they can ask me, tell my allies what they ar edoing wrong when i see lots of extractors being upgraded in their base, same when scouting enemies... when somebody of my team (or me) attacks the enemy, i tell the enemy how to counter the attack, same for allies of course, well, mainly i just communicate, and talk to them when the games over, too

EDIT: by the way, i added an economy display along with the range display (can be activated seperately though), which shows the income of units (any building producing anything, or a builder, a shield, artilery etc, everything, including adjecency effects) and damage per second for military units like G 100 for 100dps against ground, A 30 for 30dps against air, N 200 for 200 dps against naval units, all in all such a display looks like this:
(+2 / +20 / G 100) for the commande for example
works nice imho^^ however sometimes it did not show up properly, but did not find the bug... we will see

i will now upload the new version, not as a final, and not on my page, but here... you can test it a bit then and tell me whether to add the engine to all other maps or fix some bugs first

 

[Skullclaimer]

Uhh I meant the repair rate of engineers fixing the hp of fatboys... That also needs to be looked into. But okay...

I'll check the new version soon.

 

[TM-Magic]

I finally have my computer up and running ^^

Now that I"m like 5 versions behind...

Btw I do talk to them and help them all out, even my enemies and they still leave. What server are you playing on? I'm on Azeroth :/

Actually I think it may be because of my defensive post in the middle...I suppose when they see it and send everything they got at it and see no results it's discouraging.

Edit: Btw, your map pack on the site still says v13.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

"Uhh I meant the repair rate of engineers fixing the hp of fatboys... That also needs to be looked into. But okay... "
thats the normal build speed for the fatboy, too

"Actually I think it may be because of my defensive post in the middle...I suppose when they see it and send everything they got at it and see no results it's discouraging."
probably... i normally only have a base and then resources spread all over the map, with no def at all, which they can destroy easily... i experienced that they leave when they were collecting for a single attack which just fails... sometimes i also feed them with some units (like he does an air strike, i have AA but i show him that the idea was good and dont send the AA in, just let him eliminate some parts of my army to give him some success-feelings...) and often i build smaller attack troops of which i am sure the enemy can defeat them, cause defending their base makes them clear they already have something standing, something they dont want to loose... and it shows them the way the battle is like in the game, which most people like, then i move my unit silly and he sees that i am firing at the terrain or not shooting while moving or something like that.... nothing is more annoying than being unable to kill an army of which you dont know that it is really strong... for example if he is attacking the ground... if he can attack your army directly, and sees your army is far better, he isnt annoyed by this... and then give him the chance to build the same units, and counter them with units on the same tech level... and so on... just play with them, teach them the game this way, not only via talking

"Edit: Btw, your map pack on the site still says v13."
read my last post please... ive stated that v15 is not yet an official version or something

btw im really looking forward to feedback to the new resource division, the economy display, new stealth field generator, performance fixes and overall difference in game experience

im playing on northrend (europe)
im from germany

 

[TM-Magic]

Shouldn't the maps be at v14? v13 doesn't have any defense frames or any of the 14 updates I was looking forward to :/

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

Shouldn't the maps be at v14? v13 doesn't have any defense frames or any of the 14 updates I was looking forward to :/

v14 is v15........ and not yet released.......... v13 is old

btw what came to my mind to keep players ingame:

grant your allies vision of the map, build cruisers and so on... its way easier to play then and they understnad the game faster (except for reconnaissance)

 

[TM-Magic]

Huh? why name v14 v15...I thought you already released v14

Also what do u mean ? I'll just say it'd be nice if you could share control to dead people.



Edit: Gahhh today I played someone who told me they were a noob. Then backdoored me and massed t2 units killing off 2 of my allies and almost killing me. I ended up beating him back with T3 and T4 units then he complains and calls me a noob for using t4 units. It was a fairly good game actually. The thing of it is though, I started out building 6 shipyards in the top left corner of the map (on clutch) and right away he sends a spy plane there. I was just wondering if you implemented any anti-hack precautions?

Anyways the game ended when it started lagging really bad. All 3 of us left had the T4 generator and we massed T4 units and bugged the game several times. (too many explosions I think). The debug seemed to work alright, but after it happens a bunch of times in a row its really annoying :/


Edit 2: Ok I got done playing v15 (or v14...w/e it is) I found a lot of bugs. I probably won't be able to recall all of them but of those I remember...

Stealth - It seemed rather inexpensive to get, I'm not sure how it works exactly yet, but it does seem to cloak units so your enemy can't see them, or atleast it does some of the time...which is odd enough. It also bugged out and cloaked someone's cruisers permanently. It also doesn't cloak units being built, I'm not sure if that's what you want or not.
Personally idk if I like how stealth uses a defense frame, I'd rather see it being used in a shield-type frame, but that may annoying so idk. Also, idk if its powerful enough to give it more cost or not.

Clicking issues - In previous versions you would click a unit and it would randomly decselect them, which is fairly annoying, but in this version, they also stop moving/attacking until you hit (S)top. (I've seen this happen in my zergling blood map, actually its a bug I'm not sure how to fix...it happens when my ghost uses cloak). Also, sometimes a unit will stop and won't respond until you select a different unit and reselect it...so you have a couple of those annoying bugs :/

Cruiser - I was thinking about complaining about the cruiser, but its new attack is fairly weak, so I'll test it further to see how necessary it is.

T4 Artillery - A couple people (that've played with me quite a bit now) think it fires a little too fast for such a big effect (it looks awesome btw).

You may want to think about...
self destruct feature for those who cap out their food limit with lesser units and don't want them anymore.
Fire-At-Will option for tactical missile launcher.
A way to turn off secondary fires for things like monkeylord. Actually i'm not really sure how stealth works in the real game either, I kind of assume he would be able to get past say some resource buildings in the middle of the map without being detected. Maybe not.

Btw is the czar more of an AA unit? I was just trying to think of an AA experimental, couldn't think of any.
Also, the tooltip for the T3 artillery says its minimum range is 7200...if that's true that's pretty far...I'm kind of assuming it's suppose to say maximum.
oh...btw, idk if this is true in v15, but in v13 the tooltip for the quantum gateway says the sub commander can provide upgrades for your commander and I think you mentioned something about that before, was wondering if that was a typo, a not-implemented yet feature, or a feature no one knows how to use.

Btw the resource thing is really nice, you may want to think about putting that to be initially on, its fairly handy I usually get a lot of people that are like "Woah, my unit does 0 damage -.- wtf....".

And please explain how your stealth works because I"m fairly clueless lol.

 

[Skullclaimer]

I also play on northrend with this name so maybe i'll see you there.

As for how stealth works, in the real game stealth removes the units from the radar so when someone looks at the radar he/she doesn't see the units approaching. But when they look at the location of units they can see the units visually.

Fire at will option sounds really cool, but for artilleries not for tactical missile launchers. You are supposed to aim those manually in the first place. And the t3 artillery does have a large minimum range in the game.

I havent tried this version yet, but I got a bunch of people that look forward to testing this map with me (kinda like a mini fan club eh). Unfortunatly I got a late exam today so I can only test it tomorrow.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

Huh? why name v14 v15...I thought you already released v14

tested v14 too often online

I'll just say it'd be nice if you could share control to dead people.

could cause bugs

I was just wondering if you implemented any anti-hack precautions?

of course not... if someone uses them, hes a noob anyways and you can defeat him... otherwise go crying, but mainly about nobody uses a map hack

Anyways the game ended when it started lagging really bad. All 3 of us left had the T4 generator and we massed T4 units and bugged the game several times. (too many explosions I think). The debug seemed to work alright, but after it happens a bunch of times in a row its really annoying :/

play serious... and you wont reach that state of game... one t4 gen per team is enough btw due to the new resource division... anyways, debug: you did not have the resource bug, right? and was there any debug message first? like trying to start an existent thread?

I found a lot of bugs. I probably won't be able to recall all of them but of those I remember...

then name more than two of them...

Stealth - It seemed rather inexpensive to get, I'm not sure how it works exactly yet, but it does seem to cloak units so your enemy can't see them, or atleast it does some of the time...which is odd enough. It also bugged out and cloaked someone's cruisers permanently. It also doesn't cloak units being built, I'm not sure if that's what you want or not.
Personally idk if I like how stealth uses a defense frame, I'd rather see it being used in a shield-type frame, but that may annoying so idk. Also, idk if its powerful enough to give it more cost or not.

its good the way it is... sight contact disables it, its also in the tooltip... constant invisibility is fixed

Clicking issues - In previous versions you would click a unit and it would randomly decselect them, which is fairly annoying, but in this version, they also stop moving/attacking until you hit (S)top. (I've seen this happen in my zergling blood map, actually its a bug I'm not sure how to fix...it happens when my ghost uses cloak). Also, sometimes a unit will stop and won't respond until you select a different unit and reselect it...so you have a couple of those annoying bugs :/

had that bug, too, once... but not in the new version, thought it was fixed

Cruiser - I was thinking about complaining about the cruiser, but its new attack is fairly weak, so I'll test it further to see how necessary it is.

you think the cruiser is unnecessary? omg... it has a good and cheap radar... it would even be good without any attack... or do you mean that its necessary to make him weaker? not really, and even if you decided that, i wont do it, i liked it in the last games

T4 Artillery - A couple people (that've played with me quite a bit now) think it fires a little too fast for such a big effect (it looks awesome btw).

it doesnt fire too fast, the game isnt about t4 units anyway, if you play it right... however, then, if someone has it, he has won and thats just fine

self destruct feature for those who cap out their food limit with lesser units and don't want them anymore.
Fire-At-Will option for tactical missile launcher.
A way to turn off secondary fires for things like monkeylord. Actually i'm not really sure how stealth works in the real game either, I kind of assume he would be able to get past say some resource buildings in the middle of the map without being detected. Maybe not.

no and no and no and read the tooltip... stealth is now invisibility, it just hides you from radar units

Btw is the czar more of an AA unit? I was just trying to think of an AA experimental, couldn't think of any.
Also, the tooltip for the T3 artillery says its minimum range is 7200...if that's true that's pretty far...I'm kind of assuming it's suppose to say maximum.

experimental AA is an idea, but work and needs a model, t3 artillery: dont complain for right tooltips please, if you did not yet try it even...

oh...btw, idk if this is true in v15, but in v13 the tooltip for the quantum gateway says the sub commander can provide upgrades for your commander and I think you mentioned something about that before, was wondering if that was a typo, a not-implemented yet feature, or a feature no one knows how to use.

old plans, is removed now

Btw the resource thing is really nice, you may want to think about putting that to be initially on, its fairly handy I usually get a lot of people that are like "Woah, my unit does 0 damage -.- wtf....".

tell them... there are people who dont like floating texts everywhere, adn those who say they have 0-0 damage learn fast if you attack them once with a very small army... they wouldnt understand G 100 anyways...

And please explain how your stealth works because I"m fairly clueless lol.

like an aura of invisbility, and all units have an ability to see invisble units within their sight range (any radar is excluded, omni is the only radar type unit which can see invisible units in some longer range, too)

As for how stealth works, in the real game stealth removes the units from the radar so when someone looks at the radar he/she doesn't see the units approaching. But when they look at the location of units they can see the units visually.

well yes, but "look at the location" requires units, too... its not just the minimap, but all tactical signs (and in supcom radar does not grant vision via radar, so it does the same)

Fire at will option sounds really cool, but for artilleries not for tactical missile launchers. You are supposed to aim those manually in the first place. And the t3 artillery does have a large minimum range in the game.

you can already disable static artillery, and i wont add autofire for tactical missile launchers, as they would act dumb, cause they are non-aiming... i like it this way, it isnt meant as artillery anyways, but as a sniper

EDIT: of course, as always, events would be nice when you report a bug... in which situation it happened... if you dont know the exact situation, at least tell me lategame / midgame / earlygame and the units which were used

 

[hookah]

bug: t2 tactical missile defense cost 0 and can be upgraded to anti air.

 

[TM-Magic]

Yeh, well what if an experienced player with equal talent using a mh, I mean this guy hit us hard exactly where he needed to all game. The game only lasted because he used T2 units for most of the game while I teched to destroy him.

I did name one or two bugs...they're listed below that statement...
(I separated each thing with the Issue - Explanation.

What I said about cruiser you misunderstood. I was trying to say that at first I thought it was a bad way to fix the cruiser, but after a little testing it seems fine, but I"ll further test it to make sure.

So your basically saying the point of the T4 cannon is to guarantee a win...So your telling me you want the game to be a tech race instead of a strategy game...

I wasn't complaining about the T3 Artillery, I just wanted to point out that 7200 is huge. You won't be able to use it on some of the smaller maps at all.

As for the bugs, I do have a replay.

Can tactical missiles reach the whole map?

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

tactical missile def zero costs is no bug, the upgrade was one, fixed

it doesnt change anything if i say the t4 is meant to win the game, cause it already works this way... tech race? of course its a tech race, too... but you cant tech if your enemy is better, right? and the t4 artillery takes about one hour to build (from the beginning of the game)

7200 minimum range is a lot, yes, but its like in the real game and its not meant as a defensive structure, so this is ok

replay? then watch the replay and tell me the other bugs, im not willing to watch it

tactical missiles cannot reach the whole map... you were the one who said its better to read the tooltips, right? well it is, something like 12k range

 

[Skullclaimer]

The goal of the game is never to let the enemy stay back and build long enough to pull off a t4 artillery. If you play really passive and let him build whatever he wants then you already lost the game. This is how supcom works and I believe this is how this map should work.

I still havent played the map (dling now and gonna test it in a min) but I believe the cruiser nerfs are way too much. (And I cant believe you are talking about nerfing it even more) Removing it's attack all together makes it a scout ship instead of a cruiser. Gonna check this out soon, so ignore this bit.

You cant tech up if your enemy is constantly harrasing your mass extractors (The ones you just upgraded to t2 and t3) so the tech race really isnt that easy as you make it sound.

 

[TM-Magic]

Sigh, so your saying I shouldn't give new players time to learn, that I should just over run them right off the bat...

Half the time people say their noobs and are really just downloading the new version...I end up taking it easy on me and they punch me where it hurts. I've said this before, but I am NOT playing noobs a lot of the time...

I attack, they counter, they attack, I counter...The only option is to out resource them and tech up...especially since my computer runs slower. Sometimes that option requires T4 units. I don't see why you both always assume I'm sitting there like a dumbass not doing anything.

And since its aparent my message on he T3 cannon was misread/not read a all, I'll say this again. 7200 range won't even be able to fit on your winter duel map and possibly some of your smaller maps. Since you decided to scale the map sizes down, you cannot use the actual game ranges...I thought we learned that from the cruisers...



Also, it's part of personal strategy to tech up WHILE fighting...I mean, why do one when you can do both. Saying the game isn't suppose to last that long isn't a valid escuse...I mean what if your fighting someone with equal skill? It ends up being a good game.

Btw, I don't use too many extractors, I use a lot of fabricators.
On a map like clutch (doing NE vs SW), a quick tech is your ONLY option. If you don't and send units instead, by the time you get units to the other side, your opponent already has a t2 factory to quickly defend. Then, since you wasted resources on units instead of buiding up your economy or teching, you fall behind and he sends T3 and wipes you out...


And Nazgul, I thought you wanted to see the replay thats why I offered it. The game bugs out with thos debug messages and lags with a cetain number of explosions I think. In the last game it hapened a lot with the T4 cannon fireing on a big cluster of buildings and it has happened previously with multi-nuke launches.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

Sigh, so your saying I shouldn't give new players time to learn, that I should just over run them right off the bat...

scout and send troops they can beat, i already said that

I attack, they counter, they attack, I counter...The only option is to out resource them and tech up...especially since my computer runs slower. Sometimes that option requires T4 units. I don't see why you both always assume I'm sitting there like a dumbass not doing anything.

do "silent" attacks, backdoor them, build your units hidden from his radar and so on... and scout him and find the weakness.. at the same time build resources... by the way, experimentals are not much more expensive than strategic bombers (if you build something like 10 of them)

And since its aparent my message on he T3 cannon was misread/not read a all, I'll say this again. 7200 range won't even be able to fit on your winter duel map and possibly some of your smaller maps. Since you decided to scale the map sizes down, you cannot use the actual game ranges...I thought we learned that from the cruisers...

cruisers were scaled to high first, and later they were exactly the way they were in supreme commander, but ships in supreme commander are imba... the ranges are downscaled along with the units, the map sizes are not downscaled, they are just reduced, theres nothing scaled among with them, i just hated big maps in supreme commander (cause attacking is harder and teching is easier)

Also, it's part of personal strategy to tech up WHILE fighting...I mean, why do one when you can do both. Saying the game isn't suppose to last that long isn't a valid escuse...I mean what if your fighting someone with equal skill? It ends up being a good game.

it is a valid excuse... but an excuse for what? for that bug? no it isnt, for anything else it is... for the artillery it is, its really meant to finish the game... and even IF both of you would try to reach high-tech at any cost, then you can just stop at one point and start massing units very fast, he wont have any def... and if he actually has def, then you can tech faster than him cause his def cant attack you... you see: variable gameplay is much better than teching all the time

Btw, I don't use too many extractors, I use a lot of fabricators.
On a map like clutch (doing NE vs SW), a quick tech is your ONLY option. If you don't and send units instead, by the time you get units to the other side, your opponent already has a t2 factory to quickly defend. Then, since you wasted resources on units instead of buiding up your economy or teching, you fall behind and he sends T3 and wipes you out...

ehm... you claim to be no noob but rely on mass fabricators? and did you ever heard of transports? they are very fast and can easily get into bad-defneded areas... even if you have your units there for a very short time, you can break his economy if he is using fabricators due to death damage

And Nazgul, I thought you wanted to see the replay thats why I offered it. The game bugs out with thos debug messages and lags with a cetain number of explosions I think. In the last game it hapened a lot with the T4 cannon fireing on a big cluster of buildings and it has happened previously with multi-nuke launches.

why cant you just quote the debug messages? its the only thing i can use... they actually make sense to me -.-


EDIT: i think skullclaimer has understood the gameplay... and the reason why you are not only playing against noobs is, that you arent a very good player either, so you can have good games cause your enemies are as strong as you... at least thats what i think, cant prove it but it sounds a lot like that... i cant have good fights on the internet... the best fight i had was when i took over the center on icy oasis with my ally, and all 3 teams allied against us (actually they were able to do diplomacy, which means, they werent noobs)... and i won that game, though the enemy had like 6 battleships and 2 experimentals were already attacking me and i did not have a single experimental... i survived his attack and then built a strategic missile sub cause i saw that they had no strategic missile defense... i doubt all your enemies manage to build one, so having a strategical nuke or any other strong unit / experimental will end the game... theres absolutely no need for the t4 artillery... you can build 10 monkeylords instead and dont tell me 10 monkeylords are no game-ending force......

EDIT2: its very likely that i wont continue working on this map for long by the way... the engine and most interesting things are done, others are too laggy or have other big drawbacks, plus this map is already very fun to play if you have some good enemies (at least for me, though there arent good enemies often, which isnt the maps fault i assume, such a game cant be understood in one game, and there arent a lot of players who have played the map before when they join, well some, but not many)... i am only trying to improve single units optically (edit them with some love, if you know what i mean), and then fix that damage bug (which i cant find a reason for currently... if -debug works it has to be connected to my group stack, but i STRG+Fed the whole code and could not find a single use of that function which could cause an error like that)

EDIT3: for that bug... if you really get a message like trying to start an existent thread, and then time fixes the error, then it could just be that there are too many calculations in one thread, however, if only -debug fixes it, it has to be in the resource caps or in the group stack (resource caps have nothing to do with bullets, so the group stack should be it, it wont allocate a group to deal the damage)
or.. well probabably the game did not even break... you just typed -debug and it worked, but that error-message, if its the amount of calculations, fixes it on its own... and debug-messages on nukes just show the same: too many calculations in one thread, or in other words: too many units in the aoe... if you get debug messages, tell me the messages........... the fact that [Debug] stands in front of the does not indicate they have something to do with the -debug command, they are just messages for myself to fix bugs ( i get them in new versions in single player for example )... by the way i can actually see that these messages would appear when the t4 artillery is ingame, cause its 36 bullets can increase the maximum bullet count to 136 instead of just 100, which could cause the thread to get too long

EDIT4: just had to add a forth edit cause 3 edits already looked a lot^^

 

[Skullclaimer]

Just tested the new version. All I can say is : Amazing!!

I'm loving the new economy display! That thing should be turned on by the default!! Its a life saver.

I found a small bug btw, the t2 tactical defense can be upgraded to t2 anti air defense. (oops someone else reported this sorry)

The lag seems to be reduced, my pc played this waay more smooth than it did before.
Additions of tactical missile launchers make it possible to sneak-snipe enemy mass extractors and give you an upper edge on the tech race (*hint hint*)

I still believe that aa is a bit powerful. I squashed an attack of 24 t2 helicopters with 5 aa t3 sam tanks.

My friend just told me that since radar gave Line of Sight, I knew he was sending air units so I immediatly built anti air tanks. In supcom you see blips instead of units on minimap when you build a radar. Is it possible to make a similiar system in wc3? You are pretty good at this so I guess I shouldnt hold back anything at all.

Game experiance has bit lengthened (which is a good thing imo) and now lasts longer than it should due to the mass extractor upgrade rate. Early game lasts 15 mins now instead of say 5 mins.

Stealth fields are really cool. But to get what they actually do and how they do it, more than one gameplay is needed. I guess thats alright.

The new menu is again awesome, it gave me much more freedom as the host to select game settings.

Couldnt test the resource division as it was a ffa game. Will let you know about that later.

T2 and T3 artillery are really nicely done. As you know I had my suspicions that the game would be unbalanced with the tracking artillery but... really... its well done. T3 artillery takes so long to build that it feels balanced. And the t2 is a good defensive artillery.

Edit:The only thing that really draws my attention as being unbalanced is the storage construction times and the resources it takes to build one. I really love to build storages and surround my extractors with them but to build one single storage takes -56 mass. I think thats way too much. This could be fixed by lenghtening the build time and reducing the cost just slightly. You should promote the use of storages in the game, but this cost and building time feels like a chore.

Edit2:Also I understand what you say about not being able to find good opponents on battle net. I think I would like to play with you sometime, that would be awesome. As I too, cannot find good opponents and after a while it becomes a bit boring to win win win and win.

In winter dual map you cannot use naval units either, but that is not a good reason to disable them in that specific map. Nazgul makes it so that the gameplay is the same regardless of terrain. If you cannot use some of the maps points due to the terrain then you just cant.

Speaking of terrain, I would like to see a land only 4v4 map if it is possible. I know you like to add maps that could take advantage of all of your units but sometimes navy is... a bit daft. This is why I prefer to play land only maps in Forged alliance sometimes.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

I still believe that aa is a bit powerful. I squashed an attack of 24 t2 helicopters with 5 aa t3 sam tanks.

interesting, i thought

My friend just told me that since radar gave Line of Sight, I knew he was sending air units so I immediatly built anti air tanks. In supcom you see blips instead of units on minimap when you build a radar. Is it possible to make a similiar system in wc3? You are pretty good at this so I guess I shouldnt hold back anything at all.

its actually a hard thing to do, cause you would not be able to target texttags or other symbols via the normal warcraft engine, and one dummy unit per unit would be quite a lot... means it could be laggy

Game experiance has bit lengthened (which is a good thing imo) and now lasts longer than it should due to the mass extractor upgrade rate. Early game lasts 15 mins now instead of say 5 mins.

if the early game is used to attack more often then, this is a good change

Edit:The only thing that really draws my attention as being unbalanced is the storage construction times and the resources it takes to build one. I really love to build storages and surround my extractors with them but to build one single storage takes -56 mass. I think thats way too much. This could be fixed by lenghtening the build time and reducing the cost just slightly. You should promote the use of storages in the game, but this cost and building time feels like a chore.

i will change them definetaly, now as you say it... i thought they were a bit expensive, too^^

Edit2:Also I understand what you say about not being able to find good opponents on battle net. I think I would like to play with you sometime, that would be awesome. As I too, cannot find good opponents and after a while it becomes a bit boring to win win win and win.

yep would be nice

Speaking of terrain, I would like to see a land only 4v4 map if it is possible. I know you like to add maps that could take advantage of all of your units but sometimes navy is... a bit daft. This is why I prefer to play land only maps in Forged alliance sometimes.

i wanted to get to an end with this map, so i dont know whether i will add a new terrain, but if there will be one it probably will be a 4v4 land map

about the rerst of your statements: i like that you like it thanks

 

[TM-Magic]

Sigh, see thats the difference... I've been playing against anything from new players who go afk several times durring the game for extended periods of time to people who say they're noobs and backdoor you, to people who if you scout out, you see a T3 factory as soon as you get to them (roughly 8 minutes into the game). Sometimes you do not have the luxury to figure out how hard you need to play in game. I sure as hell never do.

I'm all for playing without rules, building a quick squad right away then building a legion of t1 units followed by a legion of t2 units streaming at my opponents in all directions...but the fact of it is, teching is far more useful.

I was backdoored by someone who claimed he was a noob...he took out both of my allies and built 12 t2 factories within 20 minutes of the game. The only reason why I survived where as my allies didn't, was because I teched. I'm sorry that both of you are so against teching, but it is after all, part of the game. Its part of strategy. I'm really surprised that the guy who made the map doesn't agree with it.

Also, it seems no one has mentioned this (or if they did I forgot about it already), but your tactical missile defense doesn't work properly, it fires too late or something. When I tested it, I fired one directly at the defense and it was destroyed.

Btw, something you may want to think about - what if a player masses tactical missile launchers and snipes a commander? I mean will you really say, "oh well, it was his fault" or would you look at it carefully and decide what to do about it?

On a lighter note, I do agree that storage seems to be more of a chore. I'm not really worried about the costs but for the time it takes and the little bit of storage it provides its not really worth it. It requires too many of them to be built which requires more builders and more mouse clicks and more time wasted than just the build time. In my opinion, the storage amount should go up a little more while taking slightly less time.


Btw, I mass fabricators because you can rush their build speed, which is really efficient if you have support commanders. I can build a stronghold of shields/generators/fabs and defense in minutes where as there are only so many mass spots, they take a finite time to build, and they're easily sniped.

Also, 10 monkeylords have an easy counter --> 1 nuke, or 2 nukes if its really necessary. You can't nuke the T4 artillery if its protected by anti-nuke whereas the monkeylords have to leave that protected area to get to you.

About the backdooring/going behind radar...this isn't possible against a skilled player...like I've said way back when, any skilled player will have radar all over the place and in key spots. in clutch, for example, if the 3 front players all have a t2 radar, the area open to you is very limited.

 

[Skullclaimer]

Actually the storage is really worth it for its adjacency bonus. It by no means provides "a little bit". A t3 mass ext surrounded by storages generates far more mass than a t3 mass fabricator. The storage should never be built on its own anyway. (This isnt TA)

And no one says you cant tech up in this game, you can. But to tech up too fast would divert your resources and attention from other parts of the game, which could be critical.

It really doesnt take a pro to figure out that backdooring would work great at this game... I dont see how you slap on "non noob" to someone that backdoors. It really is not that hard to figure out that they will be expecting you from this direction and attack from the other side is way more beneficial.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

Sigh, see thats the difference... I've been playing against anything from new players who go afk several times durring the game for extended periods of time to people who say they're noobs and backdoor you, to people who if you scout out, you see a T3 factory as soon as you get to them (roughly 8 minutes into the game). Sometimes you do not have the luxury to figure out how hard you need to play in game. I sure as hell never do.

there are quick and slow learners, but you can scout them all

I'm all for playing without rules, building a quick squad right away then building a legion of t1 units followed by a legion of t2 units streaming at my opponents in all directions...but the fact of it is, teching is far more useful.

that is no good strategy, your units are unprotected and visible for a long time, and you cant attack the enemy at his weak points

I was backdoored by someone who claimed he was a noob...he took out both of my allies and built 12 t2 factories within 20 minutes of the game. The only reason why I survived where as my allies didn't, was because I teched. I'm sorry that both of you are so against teching, but it is after all, part of the game. Its part of strategy. I'm really surprised that the guy who made the map doesn't agree with it.

first: there are quick and slow learners, but you can scout them all
second: i do agree that teching is a PART of the game... but its not the whole map... also, teching is already going to t2 very fast or t3, rushing for experimentals is just either lame when playing against noobs or senseless when playing against good players

Also, it seems no one has mentioned this (or if they did I forgot about it already), but your tactical missile defense doesn't work properly, it fires too late or something. When I tested it, I fired one directly at the defense and it was destroyed.

i assume that the missile defense did not have enough sight range to see your missile coming, and then it was too late (however, im not sure)... if anyone can confirm this bug, i will take a look at it, but i already fixed something there so its very unlikely

Btw, something you may want to think about - what if a player masses tactical missile launchers and snipes a commander? I mean will you really say, "oh well, it was his fault" or would you look at it carefully and decide what to do about it?

i will say "stop laming please" and i would tell the killed player: "next time scout your enemy, and as soon as your enemy has tactical launchers, move around with your commander a lot, and build tactical missile defenses + shields, or if you just want your commander protected, not the whole base, build a stealth field"

On a lighter note, I do agree that storage seems to be more of a chore. I'm not really worried about the costs but for the time it takes and the little bit of storage it provides its not really worth it. It requires too many of them to be built which requires more builders and more mouse clicks and more time wasted than just the build time. In my opinion, the storage amount should go up a little more while taking slightly less time.

storages arent storages really, they are more adjecency bonus buildings

Btw, I mass fabricators because you can rush their build speed, which is really efficient if you have support commanders. I can build a stronghold of shields/generators/fabs and defense in minutes where as there are only so many mass spots, they take a finite time to build, and they're easily sniped.

ehm how do you want to mass mass fabricators when you start with a t1 and not a t3 builder? t2 fabricators would be possible, but before your each t3 you seriously need some resources.. or you are slower than me.... and though outward resources can be sniped, radar and mobile forces can counter this, and they are cheap to rebuild + a good thing to give you more time in an attack, when the enemy first kills you extractors (and probably moves all his units in, so you know his army)

Also, 10 monkeylords have an easy counter --> 1 nuke, or 2 nukes if its really necessary. You can't nuke the T4 artillery if its protected by anti-nuke whereas the monkeylords have to leave that protected area to get to you.

not if you send them alone... well but im not going to discuss on this, as end-game balance isnt important, because all of that units are very good anyways

About the backdooring/going behind radar...this isn't possible against a skilled player...like I've said way back when, any skilled player will have radar all over the place and in key spots. in clutch, for example, if the 3 front players all have a t2 radar, the area open to you is very limited.

it isnt possible but you complain about being backdoored at the same time -.- dont fool me... or this states that you are no skilled player (which is really no offense, but it seems like that, and lol, im no pro in this map either, i just hate guys who claim they are a pro player though they do not even understand the gameplay of reconnaissance), and for yourself, to hide your units, i added a stealth field generator, and you can ALWAYS build some factories at the map border to not let the enemy see them (except for winter duel or something, but that map isnt much about backdooring anyways, you cant complain about this one, as it just offers different gameplay)

TM-Magic, it does take some time to write down all the counters to your arguments, though thinking of them is easy as hell... i will stop writing them down... if you want to, we can play a game someday, not to find out whos the better player, but to find out which strategy works

skullclaimer may still want to tell you the truth about the game^^ he really seems to understand it^^

 

[TM-Magic]

I never said that backdoor = pro. The fact that he claimed he was a noob and whinned about me attacking him and then wiped out my allies is a bitch move, end of story.

I think you read my posts in a different way, not being american.


Nazgul:

I'm not talking about quicker/slower learners, I'm talking about people who know a lot about the game and have a lot of experience vs people who don't know the game at all vs people who claim they don't know but do.

Let me put it this way...you build a land factory, send a scout. He dies to a point defense or commander on the outskirts of his base, and your not really able to see anything...so you build an air factory and an air scout and send it over. Luckily he doesn't have a ton of aa yet but you realize he has a t3 factory in the making already and all you have are a few more resources, some more units, all at T1. You have 2 options. A) tech to match his tech and hope he doesn't send a ton of guys to your doorstep and B) attack him right away with the lower tech you have. As an experienced player on your map, I would never suggest B unless it was a smaller map and you already had a sizable force. Seeing as I like bigger maps like clutch, B is a terrible idea, but since I know better, and tech in the first place, I don't put myself in that predicament anyways.

When did I ever say I rush teched to T4...I see why this argument went sour, it's a big fat misunderstanding. When I say tech, I don't mean sitting there on my ass doing everything I can to tech as fast as I can. When I say it, I mean scouting my enemy, watching him and the front lines while building up resources and defense (if an attack comes).

An RTS is all about balancing and speed. Every game you need to find a balance between teching, resources, scouting, building units, and building defense. And this really depends on how your opponents play. Since the differences between the techs are so huge, teching is something that I lean towards most since it gives you the most and your going to have to do it sooner or later.

And yeh, when I wrote that about the storages, I totally forgot about the adjacent bonuses. I just don't like taking the time to build them since they're hard to place perfectly, being so small, but it is something I may consider in the future.

I don't build fabricators until tech 3. I live off of t1 and t2 extractors until then. On a map like clutch, I usually take the back resources unless one of my allies gets to it first, which are fairly well protected behind my 2 allies and myself. On any other map, I usually add a newby radar to any outer extractor along with some light defense. (and plus, the other maps are smaller and if the extractors need help, its not hard to make a few units to protect them).

The difference between the T4 artillery vs any T4 unit vs T4 nuke is huge though. Thats the only reason why I point it out. Lets look at it.
T4 ground unit - Defeated with air units/cannons.
T4 air unit - defeated with heavy aa installations.
T4 nuke - defeated by anti nuke.
T4 cannon - defeated by... ... T4 cannon since its likely its in a well defended base. Which gives good reason for the T3 artillery, but I haven't seen it in action yet and you need vision to use it. So if your enemy has a cloaker nearby, your downright screwed. And the explosions are as deadly as a nuke, if not worse.


I never said I was a pro player. I'm trying to say that if your smart, you have radar all over the place and going behind it is impossible. Recon is made useless against radar...why do recon at all when you can reveal your opponents with radar and watch their every move.

Besides, I used to send spy planes, that is unless my enemies got smart and put up aa all along their base.
And it sounds to me like you have 1 strategy and decided that that one strategy is the way to play. All you guys have been doing is telling me that my way isn't right and your way is best. Its childish.

You can't even give me 1 example of a possible play-by-play of what is possible. You also seem to like to blame things on people instead of trying to improve your game. If you don't want to improve it, thats fine, I'll do it, but if your telling someone "Oh you shoulda been smarter and done this" is ludicrous in that kind of situation.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

i am going to stop it here

i dont give you a step-by-step strategy example, because i dont have a solid strategy, its very flexible

all i want to say is: if your enemy has a t4 artillery, you did something wrong
if your enemy sees everything, you did something wrong (snipe radar stations whenever possible)

and because you are complaining about both of that things, my conclusions i, you actually do something wrong

i played a game an hour ago, and here are some new i would like to tell you:
- submarines could be invisible
- i could add professions, you could choose offensive / resources or sth (+10% dps or +10% income)
- i could add abilities which can be used during the whole game, commander specials or something like that
- i could add a respawn system, so that commanders could respawn after like 2 minutes, and could search other alliances to play in them, then they could still play, game would be over when all enemy commanders are dead at the same time, respawn would work via a spell or something, and a teleport like in the beginning

EDIT: you are american, right? you could help me improve my english by the way, if theres something critically wrong^^

 

[TM-Magic]

Your whole post here is critically wrong ><

And for most of this argument, I think you've misunderstood me in various ways.

I wasn't asking you to tell me your whole strategy. I was asking for a play-by-play of the situation.

For example: 2 players build a radar, both within range of each other. Player 1 sends units to attack, player 2 builds defense.

See here you already have a high value target. It's not so easy to always just destroy it. Just saying to destroy it sounds really naive.

To me, saying "just snipe it" is like saying "it works because I said so". I need proof that what you say is true, just like I've been giving reasons why it doesn't.

Idk if I like the professions idea, it takes away from the flexibility of the game, same with the other stuff too.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

you didnt notice i wanted to arrange a quarrel, did you?

if theres something critically wrong, tell me... anyways, why are you shocked by my english? there are people talking in english, not knowing a single word, and though i even asked for help you just say i am wrong...

sniping a radar: some tech level cannot hold you from killing one single radar, with very low hp

professions idea: i think it actually adds flexibility, as it allows playing in a team better.... however, im not sure about that one either, but it actually could improve the way teams behave...

i would really like to see teams communicate... last game (that one i already talked about) later the players did understand the alliances, and well, any player whp took part in the chat ha da better chance to win or get some allies at all...

 

[TM-Magic]

I never said I was shocked by your english, and I never just say your wrong. This is why I say there is a misunderstanding. Debate and arguments are based on a statement with proof, then the other person doesn't agree they need to state why they're proof is faulty and present proof of why its faulty. I have given reasons why various things won't work, but I don't see your reasons. You just openly deny it and don't give evidence.

Professions idea: I think it removes flexibility because it kind of locks a player into being a certain thing. If I picked dps, I have to be offense/defense and rely on my allies to provide for me to be the most efficient. Likewise, if I picked +income, to be efficient, I have to build mostly income producing buildings. Besides, people leave in the game. I've seen them leave even if they have the upperhand.

Besides, there are still a lot of balancing issues to work out, in my opinion.

 

[Skullclaimer]

Erm.. Well I'll put this bluntly, I dont like the idea of professions. It will just let you sit back and play a defensive role.

Currently everyone agrees with me that the only way to win in this map is to assume a highly offensive posture which involves pestering enemy resources and rapid minor skirmishes along the way. That said, turtleing is actually a valid strategy in the real supreme commander, are you trying to make it work in this map also?

I Had two more games last night, all team games, and I can tell you the communication is adequate between teammates. Those that are smart enough do go air when I am going land or navy to compliment each other's forces.

For balancing well I dont see there are many balancing issues at all. Just that maybe you can make tactical missile launchers a bit more expensive to fire. Such as 40 mana to fire instead of 20. With 20 and a small cd its really easy to mass them and oblirate someone's defenses.

Instead of abilities though you could add commander upgrades. And what I am REALLY longing for, is the ability for the commander to build higher tech buildings. I do this in almost all of my games in Forged alliance, upgrading commander so he can build better. This results in a way faster construction with commander and makes him actually useful late game. (Ever noticed commander is no good when you hit t3? Thats what im talking about).

Also I did have a slight issue with missile defense, namely it didnt fire at my tactical missiles at one point. I have to test this further to be able to tell you this in great detail however.

You could maybe downtune the t3 generator explosion though, when one of them goes kaboom the entire base goes down. It is not that deadly in supcom although 2 of them I guess might do the same trick also.

@Tm-Magic:

Let me put it this way...you build a land factory, send a scout. He dies to a point defense or commander on the outskirts of his base, and your not really able to see anything...so you build an air factory and an air scout and send it over. Luckily he doesn't have a ton of aa yet but you realize he has a t3 factory in the making already and all you have are a few more resources, some more units, all at T1. You have 2 options. A) tech to match his tech and hope he doesn't send a ton of guys to your doorstep and B) attack him right away with the lower tech you have. As an experienced player on your map, I would never suggest B unless it was a smaller map and you already had a sizable force. Seeing as I like bigger maps like clutch, B is a terrible idea, but since I know better, and tech in the first place, I don't put myself in that predicament anyways.

Well, since you DO know better, of course A is most correct. After all, there is no chance of you being wrong is there?
At that point in the game, even if he has t3 factory, he lacks the economy to create a sizable t3 army that could possibly be a threat. If you mass t2 units at his position, you will just kill him or failing that wreck havoc upon his economy (which is better).

When did I ever say I rush teched to T4...I see why this argument went sour, it's a big fat misunderstanding. When I say tech, I don't mean sitting there on my ass doing everything I can to tech as fast as I can. When I say it, I mean scouting my enemy, watching him and the front lines while building up resources and defense (if an attack comes).

Nazgul is trying to tell you, that defenses are worthless. A good defense is a good offense. Those defenses you build are supposed to slow down an incoming force, giving you enough time to move your army back and reposition it to counter an enemy army. They arent supposed to handle any incoming attack on their own...

An RTS is all about balancing and speed. Every game you need to find a balance between teching, resources, scouting, building units, and building defense. And this really depends on how your opponents play. Since the differences between the techs are so huge, teching is something that I lean towards most since it gives you the most and your going to have to do it sooner or later.

Please dont tell me what an RTS is...

The difference between the T4 artillery vs any T4 unit vs T4 nuke is huge though. Thats the only reason why I point it out. Lets look at it.
T4 ground unit - Defeated with air units/cannons.
T4 air unit - defeated with heavy aa installations.
T4 nuke - defeated by anti nuke.
T4 cannon - defeated by... ... T4 cannon since its likely its in a well defended base. Which gives good reason for the T3 artillery, but I haven't seen it in action yet and you need vision to use it. So if your enemy has a cloaker nearby, your downright screwed. And the explosions are as deadly as a nuke, if not worse.

The difference here is that t4 artillery takes an hour to build. An actual IN GAME hour to build. Moreover it costs so many resources that it makes sure you cannot multi task efficiently while building one. Others are not like that so you cant do a comparison. I can build an anti nuke in 5 minutes and a nuke launcher in 10 minutes while multitasking an attack.

About the cloaker; just send a dozen of t3 spy planes and see if his cloak is still there. Then have the arty target the cloaker first. I dont see how this is such an issue of being "screwed".

I never said I was a pro player. I'm trying to say that if your smart, you have radar all over the place and going behind it is impossible. Recon is made useless against radar...why do recon at all when you can reveal your opponents with radar and watch their every move.

That is a good strategy. However, this exploits an opponent's weakness (The fact that he will just let you build radar anywhere on map) and is not a solid general strategy. If he has that weakness anyway the game is over before it begins.

Besides, I used to send spy planes, that is unless my enemies got smart and put up aa all along their base.
And it sounds to me like you have 1 strategy and decided that that one strategy is the way to play. All you guys have been doing is telling me that my way isn't right and your way is best. Its childish.

If you really think I'm telling you "Your way is wrong, Mine is best" then I really shouldnt bother responding to your comments furthermore. If thats how you are going to interpret things then why should I bother? Besides, I'm being childish arent I?

 

[TM-Magic]

You are being childish. And again, I forgive you because perhaps it is because English isn't your first language and you misinterpret what I say. And again, you don't know how to properly argue. You argue in a childish way. I give you reason, you give me word of mouth, and no clear cut evidence or reason.


Defenses are not worthless, a good defense can lay waste to an entire army of any size for a hell of a lot less cost. If they were made to be worthless, they wouldn't be able to so easily. Your telling me that an rts of this magnitude can't be defensively played? You are ruling out some strategy and telling me that offensive play is the only way to go.

If you look back, you ARE trying to tell me how to play...your telling me I have to play offensively with no real defense.

Now, I don't just play defensively, I play defensively AND offensively. I tech AND I attack. I build resources AND defend.

Now if I had to pick just 1 to play all day and never ever tech or defend against, I would pick offense, you can't win playing defensively, but its part of strategy to build defensively to make your opponent waste money on trying to destroy the defenses.

If you look at blizzard rts's, these are offensively games. The defense towers suck and its all based on producing units and micro. You cannot tell me that this game cannot be played defensively when in fact a lot of the defenses are stronger than the units.

Here's what I've noticed: an enemy sends say 12 T1 bots to attack. With radar, I notice it ahead of time and have time to react. I can either:
A) build a T2 defense tower
B) build 4 T2 units.

I would choose the defense tower because its range and power will allow it to withstand a variety of attacks. If I build say 4 T2 units, he loses all of his squad while you lose maybe 1 or 2 units.
If he sends a second squad, you will lose more units, and more if he sends a third...why go through the trouble of building units that'll die when you can build defense that doesn't die.


If this game is suppose to be a clearly cut offensively game, Nazgul needs to cut the defensive capabilities by maybe 40% so that they aren't as useful to build.

When you say 5 mins and 10 mins for nuke and anti-nuke, I hope your talking about building the missile and the launcher, cuz that's a hell of a long time.



You would be screwed in the situation of the T4 artillery because you can bet its going to be heavily defended. I cannot see why you guys would choose to leave your entire base open and not build any defense.



EDIT: Before you load up your v14, I noticed a bug with the beginning dialogue. I think someone paused durring it (not 100% sure) but the game paused and I clicked ok, then the dialogue disapeared and it was fixed into the letterbox mode and sat there. I quit after 2 mins of waiting.

EDIT 2: Btw, the debug message is - "Trig_Bullets_Actions_Shields". It usually happens with the T4 cannon.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

the dialogue? hmmm, but are the commanders already created? or where does it stop?

the Trig_Bullets_Shields "bug" is fixed now: it starts a new thread every 6 shields, so it wont reach the limit... + the artillery split is included in the bullet limit of 100 bullets at the same time (if there are more, the splits simply wont be created, but if there are already 100 bullets flying around, you wont notice^^ for all other bullets its already blocked this way)

that post was helpful, by the way, thanks

4 t2 units vs 1 t2 tower: well, but if the enemy decides to send missile launchers, your t2 units do a better job, or if he decides to attack at another position, or if you want to take over more parts of the map, then you cant move your defense, but thats a matter of taste

t4 artillery: it is still very expensive and i did not see it built in a real game yet... only for fun if the enemy is already much weaker and you can afford building one... but then you would already have won anyways... + it seems to be a solution if the enemy wants to def and def and def, this way he is forced to leave his base after one hour at least (or build an artillery on his own, but at that time he might have spent more resources for def so he is slower)

 

[TM-Magic]

The dialogue bug happened between clicking ok and creating the commander. So the commanders weren't created yet when it bugged out.

Artillery: It's useful in a game where both remaining players are high in defending, or, if they do not like building a lot of units because of lag.

I was in a game yesterday where it was a 2v2v2v2 and we eliminated the other 2 teams. Oh yeh that's right...that was the same game as...sigh. I was playing with some real assholes. You see, my ally left right away and even though it was a 2v2v2v2, 2 of those teams teamed up against me, sending units at me from all directions. Managing my units carefully, I fended them off then destroyed 1 of those 4 players. Then both players from the 4th team decided to leave so it became 3v1. Then 1 of the players bsed their teammate so it went back to a 2v1v1, then that person lost so it became a 2v1. Our bases were on opposite sides of the map and we both were on the verge of building T4. The middle island remained neutral, but they controlled the sea (his navy kept me away and my tactical missiles kept him away). I sent several monkeylords to his base and sent several nukes and he destroyed them all using air units/antinuke. Meanwhile, his ally was building a paragon and made 4 T4 turrets at the same time. I didn't see that he was, I tried to scout him out but they kept shutting me down. So I ended up building a paragon and rushing a t4 turret thinking it was the only real way to win in that situation. Mine got done first, but I only had a t2 air factory...so I built some scouts, sent them over, saw a little bit of his base at a time and the cannons...

Now what really confused me is my cannon fired, but I never saw any destruction... I aimed directly at his cannons and he ended up destroying me fireing all 4 at the same time when his ally sent over a constant wave of T3 spy planes for sight. (actually it ended up lagging so bad I left, but I assume I would have lost).
So I got maybe 3 shots off with my T4 cannon...but it didn't do any damage, or atleast not where it was suppose to. I suppose it could have fired at a unit somewhere else and because of cooldown I didn't get to use it how I wanted, but otherwise something was messed up.

EDIT: I keep forgetting to mention, but can you add a hotkey for artillery? it hasn't had one in a while. Also the tactical missile defense T2 doesn't have a hotkey since the building has assist for w/e reason. And Assist shows the hotkey being i when its really T.

Another thing I noticed today, units on the higher ground have a less chance to hit units on the lower ground but the units on the lower ground have a higher chance to hit units on the higher ground. Shouldn't this be the other way around?

Also, I would agree the chain reactions are a bit too big. I mean even for normal defensive structures I've noticed have a fairly big range. I built a mess of them really close together for once and they all went boom from one good hit.

I know I've said this before, but alot of people are getting upset with me for using the T2 Tactical launcher. If they build anything I can't fend off, I just snipe their commander (if possible) and they don't like that :/ I suggest raising costs very slightly and lowering the damage to maybe 4000 and lower its AOE a bit, that is unless you want to reduce the range significantly. Right now, as it stands, the player who controls the middle wins. I can easily tech to t2, build a couple launchers, and assassinate all commanders without giving them enough time to counter attack.

It would be nice if when a player leaves, his unit blows up (with AI turned off), or are given control to the other players. Having a player leave and not having anything useful from him is really kinda annoying. To remove him I have move his commander away then kill it and target his other units.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

The dialogue bug happened between clicking ok and creating the commander. So the commanders weren't created yet when it bugged out.

hmmm i will take a look at it, but without further hints i probably cant fix it

Artillery

well i cant see how you can "rush for a paragon and t4 artillery", they are so damn expensive... and you did not destroy anything? perhaps he had shields? i dont know, but nothing seems strange in what you tell... by the way, the t4 artillery lagg is fixed with that bullet limit

Another thing I noticed today, units on the higher ground have a less chance to hit units on the lower ground but the units on the lower ground have a higher chance to hit units on the higher ground. Shouldn't this be the other way around?

you cant say that one of the units has a better chance to hit the others... most units fire projectiles higher than the point where the enemy projectiles aim for, so a slight hill directly in front of them may keep their own weapon shooting while giving some protection... all in all, if you have a cliff, its not important whether you are on the top or on the bottom, you have to be near to it, and you have to know your units (for example missile launchers are way more effective when hiding behind a hill and shooting on flat terrain, t1 artillery is good against units behind cliffs, and gatling bots are useless on hilly terrain)

Also, I would agree the chain reactions are a bit too big. I mean even for normal defensive structures I've noticed have a fairly big range. I built a mess of them really close together for once and they all went boom from one good hit.

thats AOE, no chain reaction, however, in the next version, death damage is reduced by 50%... and for your defense: always spread your units and building to counter AOE

I know I've said this before, but alot of people are getting upset with me for using the T2 Tactical launcher. If they build anything I can't fend off, I just snipe their commander (if possible) and they don't like that :/ I suggest raising costs very slightly and lowering the damage to maybe 4000 and lower its AOE a bit, that is unless you want to reduce the range significantly. Right now, as it stands, the player who controls the middle wins. I can easily tech to t2, build a couple launchers, and assassinate all commanders without giving them enough time to counter attack.

damage is already reduced to 4k, i dont know if i will weaken it any further, however, i had it in one game and could snipe targets very well, so... is too strong (anyways, my enemies did not manage to snipe my units, as i realized it soon enough and built tactical def)

It would be nice if when a player leaves, his unit blows up (with AI turned off), or are given control to the other players. Having a player leave and not having anything useful from him is really kinda annoying. To remove him I have move his commander away then kill it and target his other units.

it is useful: cannon fodder, and he gives you all resources he still produces... and well, shared control isnt tested yet, i dont know what effects it can have... i will take a look at it, too

 

[TM-Magic]

Eh, the T4 artillery was rushed after the paragon was made, so the resources for it were there. He only had 1 or 2 builders per cannon so mine got done a lot faster.

I say that they had a lower chance because basically I build some t2 defense to defend myself against some t1 units, but instead of helping me, they ended up hitting the cliff side every shot while his units were able to attack the tower. 1 of my towers even attacked my own extractor. Idk it just didn't seem right to have units on the lower ground able to attack something on the higher ground that can't attack back. It defies logic in a way.

Btw, in the example of the chain reaction, I had maybe 9 or so towers in a block, I doubt t2 missile launchers have that kind of AOE. I usually do spread em out, thought I'd try it differently so I could utilize the shields and stealth capabilities to defend them.

Btw, did you take a look at the tactical missile defense tower? None of my opponents have built them since that incident so I wasn't able to test it. I recall firing the missile directly at the defense and I killed the defense. It seemed to fire too late. It is influenced by sight?

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

i think you have learned from the defenses, that you have to place tham at the cliff border, not inside your base... well you know the flight pathes of all projectiles, and you know that they coolide with cliffs, so... you should actually know where to place your towers... of course, in all ways, its harder to fight on hilly terrain... it doesnt defy logic that you cant shoot down a cliff if your projectile fires nearly straight forward (logic = physics = implemented)

probably t2 missile luancher have that kind of AOE... towers are so small that you can easily put them together and let them be damaged by AOE

tactical missile def worked last time when i tested it... it is influenced by sight, yes, cant shoot on not yet revelead projectiles

 

[TM-Magic]

k, then maybe the missile defense didn't malfunction, I'll tell ya if I see it happen under different circumstances.

As for the towers on the higher ground, they were placed 2 squares away from the edge. I do see your point, however, there are 2 big reasons why I still think its illogical.

1) The realistic application - In real life, if there was a guy in the tank, he would only see maybe the top half of the tower, making it a harder target to attack, where as the tower has the high ground and can clearly see the tank from a more top down view (which would usually make him a bigger target).

2) Why is it a t1 tank can attack my tower whereas my tower can't attack it? A tank doesn't lob any projectiles, like the tower, it has a direct approach. If both projectiles fly straight forward, why is it the tank can fire both the tower can't?
I suppose you may have made the tank's shot slightly angled instead of having it a direct one.

I think this can be easily fixed by raising the projectile starting spot on the tower by say 5. I suppose I just hate seeing the high ground have no benefit when in real life it can turn a battle around.

And I think you misunderstood the launcher, I didn't mean the building launcher, I was talking about the unit, which I've never seen take down more than 1 tower sized unit at a time.

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot, I didn't get to read the whole debug message but part of it was DOAoeD_thread if that helps. It was on v13 on clutch. Someone massed a LOT of t1 generators and storage's and someone dropped some t1 guys off there with an air transport.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

in my map gravitation is always the same, so faster projectiles go straight forward while slow projectiles have to fly in a big parabola...

perhaps the projectile speed of the tank is slower, so that it does not hit the cliff... i dont know this can be, i would not expect it either, but... well^^

you mean i should make the towers higher? you are right about that, they would hit tanks better then, but im not really sure about it... you should always have some other units anyways, and the towers can still attack units which arent so near, so... well at least in v16 it isnt changed yet

and the launcher: i actually thought you were talking about the mobile one, but well... if the rockets are placed well they can hit more than one target

and the DoAOEDamage bug... hm i did not experience it yet, well we will see if it happens again.. (it is caused by too many explosions in the same thread, or too many units nearby for that explosions)

Supreme Commander

v16 is released (is actually v15 with some smaller changes)

i also added a forum to the page, just a little, not very nice one, however, this way people can leave messages when they visit supcom.btanks.net directly... would be nice to see you writing in that forum, too

 

[TM-Magic]

Yeh I went there earlier and noticed it, but it said it was down atm.

As for the launcher, I suppose that could be true, it ended up destroying the 7 building around it and dmging ones after that, so I suppose the AOE could just be a little bigger than I thought.

Every unit has a launch point, couldn't you just make it a bit higher?

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

Every unit has a launch point, couldn't you just make it a bit higher?

xD every weapon has a launch point in my map... the launch point in the object editor is totally irrelavant^^ however, i can change that launch point, too, i will see whether it still looks good

by the way, just played one game of it and already recognized two bugs ^^ (but there were some which existed in earlier versions, too, i just did never autoproduce units over one hour (screwed up timers -> every delayed action), the second bug is: if you put a unit inside a transporter and then build a new building or anything, the storage size of the unit in the transporter wont be counted xD

managed to fix both of the bugs in v17, however, it will still wait...

 

[TM-Magic]

Lol. Well I found some things.

I can confirm that missile defense does NOT work properly. It will protect it some of the time but not always. My opponents a couple of missiles long distance past my t3 radar into my allies base which had 4 missile defenses and only one of the missiles was destroyed. It seems to work some of the time, but other times one or two will slip by.

Also, the tactical missile launcher is agreed to be too strong (I"ve been exploiting it on my opponents and they think its worse than a nuke [not in power, but because its so cheap to build and can assassinate commanders/any shielded defense.

I will say that I over estimated the 7200 minimum range for the T3 cannon. I thought 7200 was longer than it is, perhaps the camera is zoomed out more than I thought and 7200 is a good number.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

The Missile Defenses:
Supreme Commander &bull; View topic - Missile Defenses

so you think the tactial missile launcher has to be weakened again? could be true... i will write it down and think about it

 

[hookah]

I had 0 income bug.
we destroyed all my units and even with the starting commander I could built anything. I attached the replay. (have fun watching how I get owned 2 times in 1 game)

 

[Piranha89]

I played this map and the other Supcom variations with friends and bots. There are some things i want to mention:

-Flying missiles and grafics fit well with the units, keep that up



-The insane range of weapons makes the gameplay very lame and uninteresting though the system itself is cool.
-Upgraded shields are very expensive. You can get about 3 normal shields for this price, thats far more effective and still quite lame.
-T2/T3 energy generators take far too much time to build as i guess. There should also be an option to upgrade T1 generators.
-Bots lagg hard.
-Bots dont tech for anything, just mass T1 units. If you go for T2 factory on start, its a free win as long as the game does not become unplayable due to laggs.
-Small height variations on the ground very often stop tank or tower missiles. Please dont make them fly that streight ahead.
-Survivor mode does not work on all maps.

 

[TM-Magic]

I am not the game creator but I'd like to answer a few of your comments.

First of all, Nazgul aka bob666 has gotten tired of the project itself and probably won't be making a lot of changes anytime soon if at all.

Ranges, I agree need to be fixed.

Upgraded shields vs normal shields - upgraded shield is better because it doesn't take up as much unit food which is very important.

T2/T3 Generators take as long to build as they do in the real game, they're should take a long time since they don't require a deposite like mass and it would be foolish to even have the resource in the first place if it was easy to get. (aka unbalanced)

Like the real game, this one has a certain level of system requirements and if something lags for you, it doesn't lag for all. (what I mean is, I don't get this, and I don't hear of anyone else getting it so your on your own)

Comps do suck, I wish he would improve them, but as a competative player, I wouldn't put that on high priority unlike things such as balance.



There is an official site where you can find more discussion. Supreme Commander

 

[light bolt30]

lol this map is kool

i've also got supreme commander and its epic

 

[Piranha89]

Finally!

Thank you for keeping up that map pack. I have been sending an e-mail to btanks.net in order to ask you to go on and I'm really glad you did
Additional thanks to your work on some of the points i mentioned before, that greatly increased the gameplay.

4.5/5=5/5

 

[TM-Magic]

First off, to TKF, would u want to sit there and download a map with all that put into it? I think not. Downloading something like that on warcraft would take hours. And lets face it, not everyone can get the map from hive or the subcom website.

Sir Laggalot, I agree, taking extreme measures should allow you to survive extreme attacks, but I dont' think he's going to work on this anymore either so >> someone else should do it ;P

If I knew more about JASS I'd work on this map myself and balance it but I don't and I don't have time to learn so w/e.