[Suggestion] On the superfluity of the Bard.

[Jumbo]

Hello Zweib. Since you have already hinted that a new class may be getting healing capacities, I wanted to voice my opinion that the Bard is suitable for such a feature.

At the moment, all classes have something going on for them: The obvious healer/tank classes, obvious dps classes, and the only class that seems redundant, and therefore not a part of the general style, is the Bard. The Bard, while certainly having some nice buffs, have literally almost nothing to do in boss fights. The Bard buffs up himself and his teammates, and then relies on backstab, steal, mana 'heal' and perhaps acid, as his active abilities. That is; nothing more than 3-4 spells with significant cooldowns.
This leads to very static and mindless gameplay compared to any other class. I think this is a shame, being a supporter of the whole idea of a bard class.

Because of the aforementioned problems with the class, I propose a healing spell to be added as one of (not all) the bards new abilit(ies)y in version B and further versions. The point is not to make the Bard a true healing class, but to make it capable of supporting a healer, should the need arise. This will fit perfectly with the theme and associations with the bard name, being a jack-of-all-trades and a profession of versatility. I have more specific ability ideas, but feel that it is pointless to mention them, seeing as you already made many nothing short of interesting and funny abilities.

 

[_lycan]

Give him better buffs? omg bard is an unique class and doesn't deserve to get fucked by becoming "another" helear, as if you add one heal on it then people will complain bishops heal more etcetc and they'll replace their powers with stupid heals which will end up in bishop2

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Bards will not receive healing abilities in the future, simply because I have other ideas for the bard.
I agree on the passive/static gameplay on the bard and will give him more direct and active abilities with future updates.
There will be AoE buffs (quite similar to shouts) that must be "timed" or are highly situational in the future, to allow a little bit more "active" gameplay on the bard.

 

[Jumbo]

I see. Sounds interesting, but I fear that the Bard will still be the least needed class - not saying he is useless of course.

 

[FunnyDog]

Actually, I think that many people or almost evereyone doesn't understand how strong a bard is. For example, my bard is not even full geared and only level 47, but with the Lorekeeper talent path, my Song of Vigor provides 18 str. This means, that crusader and berserker get a +18 dmg bonus and more armorpen and that is a lot, because it affects spells too. In addition, the Song of Elements makes sorcerer/necromancer deal 15% more dmg with their most used spells. And the reduced threat-generation from Song of Peace is often very useful too. Only with the songs, the bard lifts up the dps of almost the whole group, by a lot. Anyway, my bard for example still has a bit more than 300 dps in a bossfight (brood matriarch for example). But that's not even everything to mention. A bard can still clear up big amount of monsters with sweeping blades and can lift up the dps of some group members once again by using embrittling acid and the bard has a stun to interrupt spells like heal from the alchemist boss.


If u resume all this, it means that a bard can lift up the dps of a group by a lot, he still has ~300 dps, can clear up groups of enemies, can use a stun every 7 seconds if I'm not mistaken and can lower the armor of an enemy = lift the dps of the group members which use physical attacks for dps. Oh and by the way, a bard can Inspire monks/sorcerer or whoever needs more mana for a bossfight, giving him back ~180 mana.

If you compare all that with an assassin, in my opinion a bard is much more useful than an assassin, because he helps the group a lot and can still have a very good dps (in most cases my bard has even a better dps than my full geared zerker).

I would always prefer a bard over an assassin in my group.

 

[Last_Wish]

Agree with FunnyDog on the part that assassin is even more static.

But not on the fact that sin is worse then a bard for any team: sin also has buff (venomous blades), which increase physical dps of group members by roughly 18%, can go into shades and drop dazing trap to sleep minions and save team members if tank failed to aoe aggro in time, so it depends on a certain group setup and situation. Bard is just more versatile and fits any group. Oh, and assassin obviously deals more damage, which makes sweeping blades even more devastating =)

 

[FunnyDog]

Agree with FunnyDog on the part that assassin is even more static.

But not on the fact that sin is worse then a bard for any team: sin also has buff (venomous blades), which increase physical dps of group members by roughly 18%, can go into shades and drop dazing trap to sleep minions and save team members if tank failed to aoe aggro in time, so it depends on a certain group setup and situation. Bard is just more versatile and fits any group. Oh, and assassin obviously deals more damage, which makes sweeping blades even more devastating =)

Well you're right^^ I guess I kind of overreacted while writing xD

 

[Vestra]

You have 300 dps when or after you sweep. People really need to stop bullshitting when they provide statistics. Overall, the bard as it is needs a few adjustments but not the heavy improvements suggested here.

Vigor is quite frankly shit, peace affecting only damage and not heal agro is shit and elements neglecting magic and shadow damage is just downright rude.

Bards as they are now are pretty cool supports but their skills are pretty damn limiting. Myself and some others discussed the bard a while back and I think its time to do it again. With accurate bloody statistics.

 

[muzzel]

Blah blah,

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/gaias-retaliation-orpg-649/thief-question-237798/#post2379983

I have 250 dps (against targets with not tooo much armor), and in not fullgeared and only lvl 46.

Whilst i agree that Peace isnt too strong i find Vigor and Elements very helpful. Say what you want, but it makes a significant difference at least for Crus/Zerk/Sorc/Necro.

 

[Vestra]

Targets like a goddamn mountain beast. Brood also has the lowest armor of all the new bosses.

As for Vigor and Elements, its pretty much exactly that. Why build a skill that supports two classes. The bard is basically clogged up with abilities that fail to balance out at all. You guys talk about Sins being static, at least they're not as damn cookie cut as bards go. Lorekeeper with buff skills, done.

You were in our discussion game were you not muzzel. Vigor only benefits the damage of two classes in the whole game, provides ARP to classes that don't actually need it most of the time and clogs shit up overall. As for elements, yes, lucky Sorcs and Necros but bugger me if a Necro gets a shadow skill later on, or if you want to boost the magic damage of a sader, bishop or monk.

The skills can be improved.

 

[Vestra]

You have 300 dps when or after you sweep. People really need to stop bullshitting when they provide statistics.

I thought I'd re quote this as it turns out I was severely wrong. Provided you have enough time to auto attack and you're pumping out enough ARP, yes, bards do get some pretty fancy dps. Think I was rocking out like 350 DPS during flamethrower.

However, I'd still like to point out that DPS is an unreliable way of monitoring damage as it neglects a variety of factors that come into different forms of combat. The damage of a bard is not the concern, it is how they benefit their team. Right now, they do a good job, they do. Inspire is an amazing skill.

But all the songs need work or bards are going to be cookie cutter crap for the rest of the game.

 

[Noe1]

i have idea i have idea!!!=))) mb add some sonic damaging spell for bard=) for more variative builds

 

[GIMLI_2]

maybe give vigor the effect to increase the main attribute?

 

[muzzel]

has been discussed before, zwieb didnt like it (And honestly neither do i)

 

[Vestra]

Be prepared for it to be discussed again in immense detail.

 

[chiya]

well, first sry to revive an old thread.

I'm suggesting that there's a small bonus everytime a song is casted, i don't know the details yet but in addition to give bonus passively, something like reducing some threat everytime u cast song of peace and then put some short cooldown at the songs. That makes bard can alternate from attacking or using songs frequently to support the team.

 

[muzzel]

Hm actually i like that idea :O
It also motivates the bard players to use their instruments in combat and not just to buff up the whole group before the fight.

 

[chiya]

Hm actually i like that idea :O
It also motivates the bard players to use their instruments in combat and not just to buff up the whole group before the fight.

yeah right? just like healer running around in the battle field healing, we could see bard running around in the battle field buffing, though the bard still can go for full dps if he feels like it.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

well, first sry to revive an old thread.

You're forgiven

I'm suggesting that there's a small bonus everytime a song is casted, i don't know the details yet but in addition to give bonus passively, something like reducing some threat everytime u cast song of peace and then put some short cooldown at the songs. That makes bard can alternate from attacking or using songs frequently to support the team.

While I think the idea has a valid point (I encourage everything that allows players to customize their way of playing), I feel it would be very hard to balance and would probably over-complicate the song mechanics.

Cooldowns on single-target buffs are a no-go, imho, as it would just be annoying for groups to wait for the cooldowns to settle before being able to pull a boss.

The future addition of hymns to the bard's spell pool will improve on the passive playstyle of bards for those more interested in playing a buffing class, not a dd class. The ability limit of 9 just adds to that, imho. There might also be selfbuffs for bards in the future, for those more interested in the bladedancer talent build.

 

[chiya]

You're forgiven


While I think the idea has a valid point (I encourage everything that allows players to customize their way of playing), I feel it would be very hard to balance and would probably over-complicate the song mechanics.

Cooldowns on single-target buffs are a no-go, imho, as it would just be annoying for groups to wait for the cooldowns to settle before being able to pull a boss.

The future addition of hymns to the bard's spell pool will improve on the passive playstyle of bards for those more interested in playing a buffing class, not a dd class. The ability limit of 9 just adds to that, imho. There might also be selfbuffs for bards in the future, for those more interested in the bladedancer talent build.

Hmm, not very long cooldown, something like 2-3 sec would be good (just to make sure that it's balanced in terms of cooldown, mana cost and benefit). Every cast would need 5 Mana and u know it's a lot if you want to constantly using the 3 songs u have for the little extra added temporary bonus (this maybe could encourage Con/Wis Bard who want to become full buffer!). If the bard gets tired or prefer to Dps, they could just buff once before battle and join the frontline army like how it is now.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Every cast would need 5 Mana and u know it's a lot if you want to constantly using the 3 songs u have for the little extra added temporary bonus (this maybe could encourage Con/Wis Bard who want to become full buffer!).

I think that would be a very dull playstyle, don't you think? I don't want bards to be crippled in their raw damage output, honestly.
I see abilities as kind of a trade-off. The more buff abilities you stack on your bard, the less damage abilities or group utilities like embrittling acid or sleeping trap you have.

As I said before, the current bard playstyle is not going to be the final solution. Currently, all advanced classes are kind of a construction site, with still not enough abilities to select from. Further updates will bring out the playstyles of the hybrid classes a lot more, as I try to add to their main- and off-roles more and more.

Crusaders will receive more flavour to the STR and INT builds, to allow people to actually select instead of being forced to go INT.
Berserkers will get value added to the possibility to wear a shield for tanking purposes.
Bishops will get interesting buffs to enhance their party play (currently, druids are dominating the market)
Monks will get more direct damage skills to allow both pure-dd and pure-tank playstyles
Necromancers will get some cool new abilities to seperate them from sorcerers (such as a new direct damage spell that feels more appropriate and not just like a "mage with minions")
Sorcerers will receive more group utility and abilities to improve their survivability
Hunters will get a wider range of damage abilities to select from for a more active playstyle
Druids will receive a damage ability based on INT to allow a more caster-like playstyle and a ressurrection spell.
Assassins get new utility.
Bards will get active situational AoE buffs with low duration for enhancing the buffer-playstyle.

 

[Malygos10]

Currently, all advanced classes are kind of a construction site, with still not enough abilities to select from. Further updates will bring out the playstyles of the hybrid classes a lot more, as I try to add to their main- and off-roles more and more.

Crusaders will receive more flavour to the STR and INT builds, to allow people to actually select instead of being forced to go INT.
Berserkers will get value added to the possibility to wear a shield for tanking purposes.
Bishops will get interesting buffs to enhance their party play (currently, druids are dominating the market)
Monks will get more direct damage skills to allow both pure-dd and pure-tank playstyles
Necromancers will get some cool new abilities to seperate them from sorcerers (such as a new direct damage spell that feels more appropriate and not just like a "mage with minions")
Sorcerers will receive more group utility and abilities to improve their survivability
Hunters will get a wider range of damage abilities to select from for a more active playstyle
Druids will receive a damage ability based on INT to allow a more caster-like playstyle and a ressurrection spell.
Assassins get new utility.
Bards will get active situational AoE buffs with low duration for enhancing the buffer-playstyle.

This all sounds exciting and awesome but I don't really understand what you mean by "value added to wear shields" for berserker. Also, I don't understand who would wanna tank with berserker, seriously, that class is meant to be dps, not some half dps half tanking hybrid. Not saying that different playstyles shouldn't be encouraged, just concerned that for people like me who play berserker as a pure dps class, this doesn't sound like much of an improvement, if none at all

 

[frustatedmagician]

This all sounds exciting and awesome but I don't really understand what you mean by "value added to wear shields" for berserker. Also, I don't understand who would wanna tank with berserker, seriously, that class is meant to be dps, not some half dps half tanking hybrid. Not saying that different playstyles shouldn't be encouraged, just concerned that for people like me who play berserker as a pure dps class, this doesn't sound like much of an improvement, if none at all

lol this is so funny.
what makes u feel that u have the right to teach a class purpose to him.
its up to him to decide the role of all classes in the future.

 

[Malygos10]

lol this is so funny.
what makes u feel that u have the right to teach a class purpose to him.
its up to him to decide the role of all classes in the future.

That's kind of ironic... If we couldn't all pitch in ideas and solutions to help make this map better, and just let him think of everything and work on it alone, this thread shouldn't have existed in the first place

I wasn't "teaching him class roles", I was merely asking him what he meant, and pointed out that I was concerned for those of us who like to play zerk as a pure dps with no tanking gear whatsoever.

P.S. He can't think of everything by himself, he needs help with a project as big as this map, and even though he might not agree with some suggestions because they might shift the balance of the gameplay, or it's just not possible to implement them with the limitations of the wc3 engine, it helps him think and come up with better ideas and solutions.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I wasn't "teaching him class roles", I was merely asking him what he meant, and pointed out that I was concerned for those of us who like to play zerk as a pure dps with no tanking gear whatsoever.

To answer your question: both tanking and damage-dealing will be valid in the future. I want all classes to have at least two valid playstyles.
The Berserker already got a tanking talent tree that focuses on one-hand weapons. Since shield slam and wearing a shield is allowed for the berserker, I'd like berserkers to be able to tank, if desired.
If you feel you'd rather play your berserker as the 2h dd in the status quo, then yes, you can. Remember that you are limited to 9 abilities anyway - so you can select the abilities you want and skill/talent your zerker to emphasize that playstyle. Zerker will get more damage abilities in the future, of course, but at the moment, I want to add more flavour to the tanking playstyle, as I feel the damage playstyle for zerker 'works' and already has 9 useful abilities to select.

P.S. He can't think of everything by himself, he needs help with a project as big as this map, and even though he might not agree with some suggestions because they might shift the balance of the gameplay, or it's just not possible to implement them with the limitations of the wc3 engine, it helps him think and come up with better ideas and solutions.

I encourage threads like this. I don't play this game as much as you guys do, so I'm always open for suggestions of people more experienced with how the gameplay actually works in reality.

There have been a lot of things in the past that got changed due to user-comments.
Without those forum threads, we wouldn't have a lot of the features we have now, like mercenaries, spellhaste, the new stat formulaes, etc.
Also, remember the major change in mana balancing some versions ago? Before the change, mana was basicly infinite with very low mana potion cooldowns and way too much +mana on items. This change was also initiated by forum posts.

 

[Malygos10]

To answer your question: both tanking and damage-dealing will be valid in the future. I want all classes to have at least two valid playstyles.
The Berserker already got a tanking talent tree that focuses on one-hand weapons. Since shield slam and wearing a shield is allowed for the berserker, I'd like berserkers to be able to tank, if desired.
If you feel you'd rather play your berserker as the 2h dd in the status quo, then yes, you can. Remember that you are limited to 9 abilities anyway - so you can select the abilities you want and skill/talent your zerker to emphasize that playstyle. Zerker will get more damage abilities in the future, of course, but at the moment, I want to add more flavour to the tanking playstyle, as I feel the damage playstyle for zerker 'works' and already has 9 useful abilities to select.

That's what I was afraid of... It just seems like every class will get an improvement in the next version, even the crusaders will have improvement for both playstyles, but berserker only gets an improvement in tanking playstyle...

Not saying that berserker desperately needs a buff, or that those other classes mentioned don't need any buffs. But even tho berserkers generally have good dps, they're fairly squishy. Assassins get a new utility... I fail to see how berserkers are better than assassins, since there's more advantages to playing an assassin (they even have decent aoe), and it just doesn't seem fair that berserkers get nothing :/

It'd be really awesome if some zerk armor pieces granted more armor, or some resistance

 

[Zwiebelchen]

That's what I was afraid of... It just seems like every class will get an improvement in the next version, even the crusaders will have improvement for both playstyles, but berserker only gets an improvement in tanking playstyle...

Just because you get no new dd abilities doesn't mean that berserkers get substantially weaker. Remember that you can only have a limited number of abilities. Getting another damage ability means to sacrifice something, so the change is pretty minor.

Not saying that berserker desperately needs a buff, or that those other classes mentioned don't need any buffs. But even tho berserkers generally have good dps, they're fairly squishy. Assassins get a new utility... I fail to see how berserkers are better than assassins, since there's more advantages to playing an assassin (they even have decent aoe), and it just doesn't seem fair that berserkers get nothing :/

Assassins, too, are limited to 9 abilities. If you want that new utilities, you have to sacrifice something in return.

It'd be really awesome if some zerk armor pieces granted more armor, or some resistance

You can always wear crusader pieces if you need the armor. It's a trade, really, that is neccessary from a balancing perspective. A Berserker with the same survivability as a crusader, but much higher DPS would just be OP.


With the current amount of abilities, all further abilities will not be upgrades, but actually sidegrades. Trade and return.

 

[Malygos10]

Just because you get no new dd abilities doesn't mean that berserkers get substantially weaker. Remember that you can only have a limited number of abilities. Getting another damage ability means to sacrifice something, so the change is pretty minor.


Assassins, too, are limited to 9 abilities. If you want that new utilities, you have to sacrifice something in return.

I wasn't talking about new abilities, but if there is a better new utility I'd be more than willing to sacrifice something. In dota, huskar's third ability which increases dmg, atk speed and magic resistance the lower his hp, so it'd be really nice if this was implemented on zerk even if it only increased either one of those 3 by a small percentage

You can always wear crusader pieces if you need the armor. It's a trade, really, that is neccessary from a balancing perspective. A Berserker with the same survivability as a crusader, but much higher DPS would just be OP.


With the current amount of abilities, all further abilities will not be upgrades, but actually sidegrades. Trade and return.

It would be really nice to be able to go full dps without compromising by wearing some tank gear just for survivability (thus losing a lot of dps). And I wasn't asking for much more armor and resist to be added to some zerk armor pieces, more like maybe 2 more armor and 2% all resist on chest, 1 more armor and 1% resist on helmet and gloves. And franky, I'd even be happy if you only removed the -10% atk speed malus on the hand of doom.

P.S. I just don't get why assassins have so many advantages over zerk (much higher dps and atk speed, the ability to go invis during the fight, much longer stun, the ability to steal cool items, etc) while being only slightly more squishy than zerk, and berserkers are the ones that are constantly compromised

 

[frustatedmagician]

you obviously want berserker to be the best class instead of tryin to understand other classes. with what currently berserker had, this class has alrdy been the 1st best spike damage in skill combo, 2nd best dps and the 2nd best tank in the game. you keep saying "assassin assassin dps dps shit" which do you even realize if you are given 2-3 second of dealing damage, zerk can deal triple or quadruple damage result compared to what sin can do? you really dont need zerk to be way much better in dps or tank. other class needs that more.

in this latest map version we had, i can say that the role of tanking is still too messed up, since whatever a crus can do as a tank, a zerk can do also, minus the GA. and its not even a problem, since zerk can deal more dps.

now, zwieb planned to make zerk to be more into tanking purpose and thats that. what needed to do next is to modify the crus STR talent path into a more damage output talent path in order to make the virtue talent less attractive.

and once that done, its time to consider other class. zerk doesnt need any significant boost in damage. but monk does. bard does. archer does. sorc does. necro does. bishop does. and more importantly, crus needs it badly.

 

[Malygos10]

you obviously want berserker to be the best class instead of tryin to understand other classes. with what currently berserker had, this class has alrdy been the 1st best spike damage in skill combo, 2nd best dps and the 2nd best tank in the game. you keep saying "assassin assassin dps dps shit" which do you even realize if you are given 2-3 second of dealing damage, zerk can deal triple or quadruple damage result compared to what sin can do? you really dont need zerk to be way much better in dps or tank. other class needs that more.

in this latest map version we had, i can say that the role of tanking is still too messed up, since whatever a crus can do as a tank, a zerk can do also, minus the GA. and its not even a problem, since zerk can deal more dps.

now, zwieb planned to make zerk to be more into tanking purpose and thats that. what needed to do next is to modify the crus STR talent path into a more damage output talent path in order to make the virtue talent less attractive.

and once that done, its time to consider other class. zerk doesnt need any significant boost in damage. but monk does. bard does. archer does. sorc does. necro does. bishop does. and more importantly, crus needs it badly.

Au contraire my friend, I do understand other classes and I sure as hell don't want any one class to be more op than others. I guess I am going overboard with trying to ask to boost zerk more (cause trust me, subconsciously when I think about zerk I feel like they're perfect the way they are now and they don't need any more boosts for now), all because of one problem I have with them, it's that they're way too squishy. And I do agree with everything else you said, I think druids should get some dps skill based on their int, bishop getting a unique party heal ability since most people prefer to use druid nowadays (although I'll always be loyal to the original healer class xD ), sorc and necros need their own class based skill(s), etc.

Bottom line is, I just wanted to remind everyone how squishy berserkers are with full dps gear, because it seems that everyone thinks zerks are way too op. But in reality they're only balanced, while other classes need a boost.

 

[frustatedmagician]

bishop still awesome with current endgame gear but yea druid is way more relaxing.

i kinda miss those moment when bishop can kill other class easily and giving other class a hard time to bring down bishop in duel 1 on 1. cuz somehow i see bishop deserve this reward, as now druid getting tough as hell. but i cant think of anything, maybe rework mend by lowering its cooldown, lessen the heal ammount, and let it stack? im thinkin a very low heal overtime and spammable, stacks, no cd, no more instant cast but not too long cast time also, maybe 0,3 sc.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

With the next major update, Crusaders are gonna get two "core" threat skills for both playstyles with low cooldowns. So I'm pretty much confident in that they will get the trophy for the 'true' tank class back.

About mend, I'm aware that it requires a lot of skill to really make good use of it. That's why I added the buff/debuff monitor. I feel it really makes the job easier for bishops.
Currently, the reason why druids are more popular is not that bishops perform worse in healing duties (in fact, as bishops got more direct control over healing, they get the job done better from my experience in playing both classes), but because druids are actually more *fun* to play due to the pets, ranged attacks and utility.
Also, at a certain state of gear-quality, the nymph performs so well in healing duties that most druids don't need to heal at all aside from some occasional instant casts. When lower geared, bishops perform better imho.


Back to the assassin vs. berserker discussion, I'm pretty confident in the current balancing, considering that both sides have contrary oppinions.
As a rule of thumb, as long as both sides are equally pissed, the balancing is done right.

Besides, assassins are meant to be the best single-target dps class. You trade that for low survivability, only being able to deal melee damage, low armor and health and low group utility.
Berserkers are meant to deal slightly less damage than assassins, as they make up for that with increased flexibility (being able to offtank) and survivability and AoE damage.

Sorcerers are the kings of AoE damage and are pretty much immune to bosses that have a high resistance on one element due to their select of multi-elemental spamables, whereas necromancers are the kings of single-target damage, but are screwed as soon as high shadow resistance comes into play.

Hunters are somewhat meant to be the jack-of-all-trades which makes them valuable to any party that misses something (offtank, single target dps, crowd control, multi-target dps).

 

[Malygos10]

As a rule of thumb, as long as both sides are equally pissed, the balancing is done right.

That made my day

Besides, assassins are meant to be the best single-target dps class. You trade that for low survivability, only being able to deal melee damage, low armor and health and low group utility.
Berserkers are meant to deal slightly less damage than assassins, as they make up for that with increased flexibility (being able to offtank) and survivability and AoE damage.

Well first of all, doesn't sweeping blades count? Second, sins have so much dps and arp that players can easily use skillpoints on more con. Almost all assassins I've seen had 650+ hp. And last I checked berserkers were also only able to deal melee damage, didn't see any axe throwing for range attacks from them. And lastly, berserkers don't have only slightly less dps than sins, assassins have much more dps.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Well first of all, doesn't sweeping blades count?

Well, sweeping blades is a high CD spell. As soon as it's on cooldown, assassins have literally no AoE at all.

And lastly, berserkers don't have only slightly less dps than sins, assassins have much more dps.

From my observations, I can not confirm that. There might be a difference, but it is minor at best.

 

[Malygos10]

From my observations, I can not confirm that. There might be a difference, but it is minor at best.

I've actually seen a fully geared assassin easily out dps a fully geared zerk even with ebrserkers rage on full 10 stacks... Not to mention in pvp sins can easily kill zerks. They can just go invis before pvp starts > crit from the back and stun for 4 sec, when stun disples go into the shadows > repeat, not even sure if zerk will last for second stun to dispel

Not really complaining, just wanna get this point across.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I've actually seen a fully geared assassin easily out dps a fully geared zerk even with ebrserkers rage on full 10 stacks... Not to mention in pvp sins can easily kill zerks. They can just go invis before pvp starts > crit from the back and stun for 4 sec, when stun disples go into the shadows > repeat, not even sure if zerk will last for second stun to dispel

Not really complaining, just wanna get this point across.

I think I made it clear that Gaias is not balanced around PvP.

About the assassin vs. berserker damage, I'd like to have some numbers to support that claim. I just haven't observed such a dramatic difference in my games.

 

[Malygos10]

I think I made it clear that Gaias is not balanced around PvP.

About the assassin vs. berserker damage, I'd like to have some numbers to support that claim. I just haven't observed such a dramatic difference in my games.

I know pvp isn't balanced, just wanted to use it as an example to show just how good sin have it

Also, I don't think I'm gonna be able to give any specific numbers since I have't played in months and don't have the means to play it now

 

[Ihazdialup]

Well for numbers, I know its not the most accurate BUT usually when I play sin my dps meter is usually around 400-500, while zerker is only around 300 dps, if that, depending if I am tanking or not.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Well for numbers, I know its not the most accurate BUT usually when I play sin my dps meter is usually around 400-500, while zerker is only around 300 dps, if that, depending if I am tanking or not.

Are we talking about single target damage or multi-target damage?

 

[0.mY.g0d]

I just can give a small example...it' s tested vs. Gar' tok (40 armor):

Assassin > 400 - 450 damage
Berserker > 200 - 250 damage
Berserker enraged > couldn' t get over 250 damage
Berserker unraged after killing lambs > 100 - 150 damage

Both lvl 50 and dd equipment, no abilities except Rage

 

[Xonok]

You need to compare them with bosses of their own level, due to the way armor works.