Sisters of Battle v2.2

[biridius]

Looking for 40k models especially Sisters of Battle, send them my way!

I converted the Exorcist model (the missile launcher organ thingy) from DoW but really don't know if it's good enough to use.

 

[Fleck]

I converted the Exorcist model (the missile launcher organ thingy) from DoW but really don't know if it's good enough to use.
View attachment 425752

Thank you for sharing! I will replace the current Exorcist model in next update

 

[HuanJuan]

God d*mn, when you don't expect anything new in concept, but no, here we are: good concept! Nice looking one!

 

[biridius]

Thank you for sharing! I will replace the current Exorcist model in next update

Also here's a penitent engine as well.

 

[Superfrycook]

Wow, this race looks epic, much similar to my race, all female units.

 

[Fleck]

Wow, this race looks epic, much similar to my race, all female units.

Well, almost all female. The missionary and preacher are males.

 

[stan0033]

looks cool, will check out

 

[FlameofChange]

Oh damned. I wrote a long post but the draft hasn't been saved. I'm too lazy to redo it all, so here's a brief summary for the time being.

TL;DR Completely OP & lots of incoherence.

☼ Medieval Riflemen have higher cost and better stats than a high tech sister of battle, why ?

☼ Exorcist
► Has piercing attacks, why ?
► A wooden primitive demolisher is more expensive and resistant, why ?

☼ Most of units would benefit from being more expensive in food and more impactful, so your faction has better juice & coherence

☼ The only air unit is a flying machine 100x harder to use, why no other utilitarian air units ? The movement is gimmick and doesn't bring anything interesting in game. Something cool doesn't mean it's coherent.

☼ Support heroes give a bit too much heal & defense boost

☼ Piercing attack, heavy armor, piercing attack, heavy armor, piercing attack, heavy armor, piercing attack, heavy armor, piercing attack, heavy armor, piercing attack, heavy armor, piercing attack, heavy armor

☼ Errors in the unit data
► You set AoE range for the incinerator for the 3 damage (full, medium, low) but you did not set the different multiplicator (right now it is x1, x0 and x0)

☼ Some units have overlapping roles
► You have at least 3 units with piercing AoE damage (Flame sister, immolator, exorcist),
► Seraphims are just disguised Battle sisters with a jump ability

☼ Too much micro due to the grenades, and they don't have much impact for the spend micro management.

☼ The celestian is completely OP, making EVERY other units completely useless. You just have to spam it as early as possible and you win. The meta becomes "who's spamming celestians the fastest". Only costing 55% more than a footman you have :
► 45 DPS, which is HIGHER than an infernal (40DPS) and 3x the DPS of a fully upgraded footman
► A ranged siege units which has +50% DPS against reinforced, and can also target air while having bonus against unarmored air.
► +35% HP
► The creation time of a rifleman (+6 seconds)
► Gets + 7DPS for each stacked martyr
► Still costing 2 food, so you can have 15 of these bastards while staying at green upkeep
► I would clearly multiply her price by 3, and set her food cost to 5

Provisional and personal Tier-notation
(legend)

Spoiler

From best to worse

V&S] When Vinz and Spellbound makes something together on Warcraft 3

S] Great, elegant, extra thicc, easily hooks the mind

A] Good. Nothing much to say except nitpick

B] Genuinely OK, but can be better in many ways

C] Average. Not bad, not good. C- would be "meh"

D] Flawed, or insignificant

E] Unstable, badly made, or just broken

F] Fatal error, ruins the rest

Spoiler

Aesthetics A (How well the graphics blends with Warcraft 3 while being elegant) One of the strong points of the faction. Even with uncomplete models & icons it stays coherent from both the faction perspective and Warcraft 3 graphics. You could go much more further concerning icons of abilities and upgrades, but you got plenty time.

Fluff N/A (The epicness, spice, philosophy and background of the faction) Since it's an existing lore which I'm not familiar with, I drop a wildcard here.

Feel & juice S- (How fun is it to play the faction, how well the faction gives you positive feedback) Burning heretics is a bunch of fun. The custom effects & spells gives good feedback. The faction is quite straightforward, so the juice comes just at hand. Sadly, it mostly comes from OP units. Balancing the game would reduce it to A

Strategy and tactic C+ (How the mechanics blends together, giving the faction its unique approach) Due to the current status of the techtree, I cannot go further than that for multiple reasons : ☼ Units having the same roles, so there's less strategic choice ☼ I haven't clearly figured out your intent ☼ Being simple and straightforward isn't the problem here, the execution makes it too rigid ☼ Forgettable air On the bright side, I like some details about the indentity of the faction : faith, martyr, etc By making them more central to your faction while refining your unit types, you could go from clumsy to spicy !

Balance F+ (How its strengths leave space to the rest, does it blends gameplay-wise together with the other 4 races) This break the fun when you discover the overpowered units. The previous points I wrote is just part of the problem. Even a SoB vs SoB matchup is very rigid, since the goal is to reach the OP units the fastest.

Content D- (Does the faction feels complete compared to its intent and the other races) On one hand, we have 3 heroes, a correct amount of units of each type, a lot of upgrades and some items ; which put it instantly into a B+ level. On the other hand, the overlapping roles of each units in many aspects makes it very unbalanced. So on both structure & balance your faction hurt a lot, but the problems aren't that complex. In my opinion you privileged SoB fluff over Warcraft 3 coherence ; here I'm giving feedback based on a Warcraft 3 perspective.

Handling & ergonomics B- (Does this faction have the proper data shown, how easy is it to understand) The high amount of micro concerning the grenades hurts here. However the descriptions are plenty & clear. The only air unit would also benefit from a more standard movement type, you could replace your system with an ability boosting its speed, or even TP somewhere in the map after few seconds.

Triggers, code, overall polishing B- (Is the map correctly coded, no leaks, have efficient algorithm, are details taken care of) You imported a lot of triggers, which is not a bad thing. The score here doesn't mean a lot. From the few homemade triggers there's some minor memory leaks. Simplicity is bliss.

Overall tier E+ The gamedesign and the balance hurts a lot here, nonetheless it is very easy to get out of here by fixing most of the issues. So when you'll get an improved version I would gladly judge it again !

Personal taste C (No impact on the rest of the notation, just by curiosity) I maybe expected a bit too much, as I am quite harsh with my own concepts too. I feel like you still have a lot to learn about game design, but If you want we can lean together into it to find solutions. This is a very rough start indeed ; I never said your faction was bad on paper, it had only a bunch of side effects echoing together into a balance mess. Do not hesitate to barge in my Discord if you want further feedback & help.

 

[deepstrasz]

Wow, this race looks epic, much similar to my race, all female units.

Have you played it. Want to give some feedback? 5 stars for similarity is a bit too much, don't you think?

 

[Superfrycook]

Have you played it. Want to give some feedback? 5 stars for similarity is a bit too much, don't you think?

Yeah, but I'll impress to play it.

 

[biridius]

Played it a couple times.
The aircraft system is very cool. A common complaint about DoW Soulstorm was that aircraft hanging in the air looked silly, so having such a system is a must. Expected it to be hard to repair the constantly moving aircraft with peasants but they manage somehow, surprisingly.
But I'd rather the aircraft unit was stronger and more expensive like 3 food.

The assassin hero was fun with the throwing knives coming back and dashing.
The missionary was a bit too focused on healing, and his first two ablities being area-effect while the ultimate is single-target just feels a bit wrong?
The preacher caster rousing speech seemed more like a hero ability to me tbh. That's just my preference though.

Agree with FlameOfChange on the Exorcists and abundance of piercing. If I ever get around to putting Sisters in my map I'd make the Exorcists have multishot with artillery damage, or something such. It does have multiple pipes in that organ after all.
Also the grenades. You could make grenades one use like removing the ability once it's used so that it's more of a decision to not just spam grenades on every opportunity. This would also encourage triggering martyrdom on those units. Maybe make the grenades do more damage over time than instant damage, as a non-stacking aura like immolation. Then there would also be less incentive to throw all the grenades in the same spot.

If Celestians are supposed to be having meltaguns (hence the artillery damage) you could give them a flashier missile, like from the phoenix.

Also I think Immolators are supposed to be transports (in the codex anyway, don't remember if they were in DoW). Immolators could also have artillery damage and then fill a similar role to steam tanks. Maybe even give them liquid fire or something.

 

[FlameofChange]

Also the grenades. You could make grenades one use like removing the ability once it's used so that it's more of a decision to not just spam grenades on every opportunity. This would also encourage triggering martyrdom on those units. Maybe make the grenades do more damage over time than instant damage, as a non-stacking aura like immolation. Then there would also be less incentive to throw all the grenades in the same spot.

My take is to increase the effects of the grenades, but also increase the power & food cost of the units.
Fleck would still have his infinite grenades, with instead a much easier micro management since you'll get almost the same result with less micro.
His main problem resides on the power of the fluff compared to Warcraft 3.
I would definitely make battle sister stronger than a rifleman with slightly higher cost (something like 215/30/3), 27s training time (rifleman +1), a bit more damage (+1 side per dice), less HP (My bet is 450) but 1 starting armor and medium type defense. So the sisters would be easily threatened by melee, especially T3 elite units. The higher cost is also made to compensate the spammable grenade ability. His intent to have a limited squad of high tech units would much better fit the game !
To make the flamethrower more interesting, I would adjust the AoE, damage & attack rate to be slower but hitting harder, plus getting some burning duration on the targets, while loosing her ability to attack air. In T1 or T1.5 it would be too threatening however, so I would keep the flame upgrade at T2 or T3.

 

[Fleck]

I must say thank you for your indepth review FlameofChange!

Medieval Riflemen have higher cost and better stats than a high tech sister of battle, why ?

For balance reasons since the Battle Sister is supposed to be a tier one basic and expendable unit for the Martyrdom ability.

Exorcist
► Has piercing attacks, why ?
► A wooden primitive demolisher is more expensive and resistant, why ?

The Exorcist is supposed a long-range anti-infantry glass cannon and have the longest range out of all siege units though I overlook that since I was focused on making sure my custom skills works properly. Now the Exorcist now have increased range from 1150 to 1550, damaga decreased from 21-33 to 16-28.
Hunter-Killer Missile cast range increased from 1500 to 1550.
The Exorcist is simply more expensive in lumber than gold.

The only air unit is a flying machine 100x harder to use, why no other utilitarian air units ? The movement is gimmick and doesn't bring anything interesting in game. Something cool doesn't mean it's coherent.

While I agree the movement is gimmicky, it does make the unit unique and realistic. The Lightning Fighter is also pretty powerful and cheap when all available research for it is researched. I was struggling with making unique abilities for the second air unit which is why there is no second air unit. I added a second air unit now.

Support heroes give a bit too much heal & defense boost

You mean the Missionary? Hm, I feel he is balanced enough. I can decrease the armor bonus of Shield of Faith from 4/8/12 to 3/6/9.

Errors in the unit data
► You set AoE range for the incinerator for the 3 damage (full, medium, low) but you did not set the different multiplicator (right now it is x1, x0 and x0)

You mean Damage Factor - Medium and Small? I didn't know that, updated to 1.00 for the Exorcist. For Battle Sister Flamers 1.00, 0.90, 0.80

Some units have overlapping roles

True. Perhaps I can change the Seraphim attack type and armor from Piercing and Heavy to Melee and Unarmored. Since the Immolator already exists as a anti-infantry vehicle, I can change the Exorcist attack type from Piercing to Siege.

The celestian is completely OP

Wait really? I didn't know that! I thought I nerf her enough... I will be implementing your suggestions.
How did you calculate the DPS?

One of the strong points of the faction. Even with uncomplete models & icons it stays coherent from both the faction perspective and Warcraft 3 graphics. You could go much more further concerning icons of abilities and upgrades, but you got plenty time.

? Almost all the buildings, units and abilities already uses custom models and icons. Though I admit Manufactorum is just the workshop with the roof teamcolored.

From the few homemade triggers there's some minor memory leaks.

Do go on, I'm interested in making sure my map is leakless. I'm fairly sure I made my triggers leakless.

The aircraft system is very cool. A common complaint about DoW Soulstorm was that aircraft hanging in the air looked silly, so having such a system is a must. Expected it to be hard to repair the constantly moving aircraft with peasants but they manage somehow, surprisingly.
But I'd rather the aircraft unit was stronger and more expensive like 3 food.

Yes, I totally agree with you which is why I Fingolfin's implemented Realistic Airplane System. I will rebalance the Lightning Fighter based on your feedback.

The missionary was a bit too focused on healing, and his first two ablities being area-effect while the ultimate is single-target just feels a bit wrong?

Perhaps but I'm open to suggestions on new skills for the missionary.

Also the grenades. You could make grenades one use like removing the ability once it's used so that it's more of a decision to not just spam grenades on every opportunity. This would also encourage triggering martyrdom on those units.

A good idea! I will be implementing that.

If Celestians are supposed to be having meltaguns (hence the artillery damage) you could give them a flashier missile, like from the phoenix.

Yep that's the idea. And a good idea too!

Also I think Immolators are supposed to be transports (in the codex anyway, don't remember if they were in DoW). Immolators could also have artillery damage and then fill a similar role to steam tanks.
Maybe even give them liquid fire or something.

I don't know about the Immolator being used as a transport in the codex but they don't have that ability in DoW. Only the Imperial's Chimera, Space Marine's Rhino Transport can transport units and probably other units I am forgetting. A nice idea but I will continue to ponder on a unique ability for the Immolator. If I couldn't think of anything, I will implement it.

My take is to increase the effects of the grenades, but also increase the power & food cost of the units.
Fleck would still have his infinite grenades, with instead a much easier micro management since you'll get almost the same result with less micro.
His main problem resides on the power of the fluff compared to Warcraft 3.
I would definitely make battle sister stronger than a rifleman with slightly higher cost (something like 215/30/3), 27s training time (rifleman +1), a bit more damage (+1 side per dice), less HP (My bet is 450) but 1 starting armor and medium type defense. So the sisters would be easily threatened by melee, especially T3 elite units. The higher cost is also made to compensate the spammable grenade ability. His intent to have a limited squad of high tech units would much better fit the game !
To make the flamethrower more interesting, I would adjust the AoE, damage & attack rate to be slower but hitting harder, plus getting some burning duration on the targets, while loosing her ability to attack air. In T1 or T1.5 it would be too threatening however, so I would keep the flame upgrade at T2 or T3.

I'm considering buffing units with increased resource costs in general but I'm putting that on hold since I'm also toying with the idea adding a new faith mechanic with faith as a third resource to the sisters that can be spent to temporarily bolster their combat strength, etc. That might be too ambitious for me since I'm not certain I can properly implement it. In general, I implemented your suggestions.

Battle Sister Flamer already loses the ability to attack air units though. And the burning duration might be too repetitive if I don't make the grenades single use.

 

[FlameofChange]

For balance reasons since the Battle Sister is supposed to be a tier one basic and expendable unit for the Martyrdom ability.

Well, you can perfectly have a unit with good stats at T1 without being an elite unit.
To compensate the higher cost you can perfecly adjust the creation time if it is a concern.

The Exorcist is supposed a long-range anti-infantry glass cannon and have the longest range out of all siege units though I overlook that since I was focused on making sure my custom skills works properly. Now the Exorcist now have increased range from 1150 to 1550, damaga decreased from 21-33 to 16-28.
Hunter-Killer Missile cast range increased from 1500 to 1550.
The Exorcist is simply more expensive in lumber than gold.

Well, having a vehicle as a glass cannon doesn't mean it must be as frail as an infantry. While not heavy, it is a chunky artillery piece (not just 2 gals on a pepper pot).
Putting a too high cost in lumber doesn't fit in Warcraft 3 balance, because you can get a shredder and catch up easily. Mountain giants costs 100 wood but they have 3-4x this cost in gold, for example. The Coyote's ruse is to increase lumber cost on a unit if it's a specialist.
My take here -to give some details- is to make it slow (190 speed, for example) & having a harsh minimal range (400-500).
To compensate, I would increase the gold cost, reduce the lumber, increase HP (to 600-700) and armor, and make the projectiles a bit slower to be easier to anticipate for the enemy.
I would switch damage type to siege and reduce the attack rate, so it would support the frontline with splash while giving something to counter tower spam.
So by these changes, it will still threaten static battlefields and support siege, but would be completely confused if melee or magic reaches it's minimal range. Objective complete !

While I agree the movement is gimmicky, it does make the unit unique and realistic. The Lightning Fighter is also pretty powerful and cheap when all available research for it is researched. I was struggling with making unique abilities for the second air unit which is why there is no second air unit. I added a second air unit now.

Being realistic doesn't make something fun or interesting. Sometime you have to sacrifice a bit of this realism to gain coherence.
If you want you can add some kind of ability spawning an airfighter to scout the area and destroy aerial threats before returning to the base.
However, as a unit I think it is a misfit (of course, it's just a detail).

? Almost all the buildings, units and abilities already uses custom models and icons. Though I admit Manufactorum is just the workshop with the roof teamcolored.

Indeed, some upgrade icons would benefit from being extracted from WH40k artworks or games, especially attack/armor upgrades.
I saw that buildings were basic Wc3 alternates with darker color. I don't mean it's a bad idea (I also had to be creative), however you would gain a lot from getting true WH40K building models in Wc3 graphics (yeah, it's very hard to get good available modeler these days, I empathize).
On the good side I haven't seen anything out of place.

Do go on, I'm interested in making sure my map is leakless. I'm fairly sure I made my triggers leakless.

I might have misread things, my head isn't very clear these days.
I just rewatched your triggers, they don't leak.
However, I remember why it tilted me a bit : the damned one line filters.
They are ugly, atrocious to maintain and to read.
You better have to make a if-then-else filter in the unit loop, so you can more easily maintain.
For example this

Spoiler

• Lay Hands
  • Events
    • Unit - A unit Starts the effect of an ability
  • Conditions
    • (Ability being cast) Equal to Lay Hands (Item Area Healing)
  • Actions
    • Set VariableSet TempPoint2 = (Position of (Casting unit))
    • Set VariableSet TempCasterUnit = (Casting unit)
    • Set VariableSet TempOwner = (Owner of (Casting unit))
    • Set VariableSet TempUnitGroup = (Units within 600.00 of TempPoint2 matching ((((Matching unit) is Magic Immune) Equal to False) and ((((Matching unit) belongs to an enemy of TempOwner.) Equal to False) and ((((Matching unit) is dead) Equal to False) and ((((Matching unit) is A structure) Eq
    • Unit Group - Pick every unit in TempUnitGroup and do (Actions)
      • Loop - Actions
        • Unit - Set life of (Picked unit) to ((Life of (Picked unit)) + ((Max life of (Picked unit)) x (0.10 x (Real((Level of Lay Hands (Item Area Healing) for TempCasterUnit))))))
    • Custom script: call RemoveLocation (udg_TempPoint2)
    • Custom script: call DestroyGroup(udg_TempUnitGroup)

could be transformed into this :

• Lay Hands
  • Events
    • Unit - A unit Starts the effect of an ability
  • Conditions
    • (Ability being cast) Equal to Lay Hands (Item Area Healing)
  • Actions
    • Set VariableSet TempPoint2 = (Position of (Casting unit))
    • Set VariableSet TempCasterUnit = (Casting unit)
    • Set VariableSet TempOwner = (Owner of (Casting unit))
    • Set VariableSet TempUnitGroup = (Units within 600.00 of TempPoint2.)
    • Unit Group - Pick every unit in TempUnitGroup and do (Actions)
      • Loop - Actions
        • Set VariableSet TempPickedUnit = (Picked unit)
        • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
          • If - Conditions
            • (TempPickedUnit is Magic Immune) Equal to False
            • (TempPickedUnit is Dead) Equal to False
            • (TempPickedUnit is A structure) Equal to False
            • (TempPickedUnit is Mechanical) Equal to False
            • (TempPickedUnit belongs to an enemy of TempOwner.) Equal to False
          • Then - Actions
            • Unit - Set life of TempPickedUnit to ((Life of TempPickedUnit) + ((Max life of TempPickedUnit) x (0.10 x (Real((Level of Lay Hands (Item Area Healing) for TempCasterUnit))))))
          • Else - Actions
    • Custom script: call RemoveLocation (udg_TempPoint2)
    • Custom script: call DestroyGroup(udg_TempUnitGroup)

Wait really? I didn't know that! I thought I nerf her enough... I will be implementing your suggestions.
How did you calculate the DPS?

Another way to balance it, the problem comes from its absurd 0.6s attack rate.
You could increase the food cost to 3 and the attack rate to 2, or 2.5 if it's still too strong.

True. Perhaps I can change the Seraphim attack type and armor from Piercing and Heavy to Melee and Unarmored. Since the Immolator already exists as a anti-infantry vehicle, I can change the Exorcist attack type from Piercing to Siege.

Unarmored would be counter productive, as she would be too squishy against what she's supposed to counter siege in close quarters.
She would better fit as a battlefield stunner : she would jump into a location and automatically do a war stomp and a very short invulnerability to make her at least useful.
You can make her a melee unit, but I might alterate too much your lore.
Keep her heavy armor & piercing attacks if she's still ranged, or make her short ranged (200-250) with normal damage, compensated by a slighlty higher punch (+1 damage & +1 dice).

I don't know about the Immolator being used as a transport in the codex but they don't have that ability in DoW. Only the Imperial's Chimera, Space Marine's Rhino Transport can transport units and probably other units I am forgetting. A nice idea but I will continue to ponder on a unique ability for the Immolator. If I couldn't think of anything, I will implement it.

Ground transport is not much usefull in Warcraft 3, since the battle scale isn't significant. Also the narrow passes would make it a poisoned gift.
You could however make it fire faster if you load with military units : you can "save" a injured gal without loosing all of her abilities and DPS.

I'm considering buffing units with increased resource costs in general but I'm putting that on hold since I'm also toying with the idea adding a new faith mechanic with faith as a third resource to the sisters that can be spent to temporarily bolster their combat strength, etc. That might be too ambitious for me since I'm not certain I can properly implement it. In general, I implemented your suggestions.

Custom resources are a bit annoying to code by hand, but I managed to make it : the trick is to catch all existing events (start, finish, cancel, destroy) before computing the cost.

Battle Sister Flamer already loses the ability to attack air units though. And the burning duration might be too repetitive if I don't make the grenades single use.

You can make them explose at death lol.
More seriously, the grenade system isn't a fault here : the problem resides on the number of grenade to fire.
It could be the same burning effect as other flamethrowers, but they wouldn't stack too.

 

[biridius]

The Exorcist splash seems a bit too strong.
The Living saint gets tornado'd by the night elf talon druids too easily. Maybe give her magic immunity?

As to the Immolator being a transport in the codex:

 

[Fleck]

Well, having a vehicle as a glass cannon doesn't mean it must be as frail as an infantry. While not heavy, it is a chunky artillery piece (not just 2 gals on a pepper pot).
Putting a too high cost in lumber doesn't fit in Warcraft 3 balance, because you can get a shredder and catch up easily. Mountain giants costs 100 wood but they have 3-4x this cost in gold, for example. The Coyote's ruse is to increase lumber cost on a unit if it's a specialist.
My take here -to give some details- is to make it slow (190 speed, for example) & having a harsh minimal range (400-500).
To compensate, I would increase the gold cost, reduce the lumber, increase HP (to 600-700) and armor, and make the projectiles a bit slower to be easier to anticipate for the enemy.
I would switch damage type to siege and reduce the attack rate, so it would support the frontline with splash while giving something to counter tower spam.
So by these changes, it will still threaten static battlefields and support siege, but would be completely confused if melee or magic reaches it's minimal range. Objective complete !

Very informative and a solid idea. I will do as suggested in the next in the next update.

Indeed, some upgrade icons would benefit from being extracted from WH40k artworks or games, especially attack/armor upgrades.
I saw that buildings were basic Wc3 alternates with darker color. I don't mean it's a bad idea (I also had to be creative), however you would gain a lot from getting true WH40K building models in Wc3 graphics (yeah, it's very hard to get good available modeler these days, I empathize).
On the good side I haven't seen anything out of place.

True, it would be nice if such icons and buildings available. DoW Sister of Battle icons in general doesn't really fit with warcraft icon aesthetics. 40k Icons by Oliver is the closest thing I can found. I checked the ported icons too, the 40k icons there is sadly for the other 40k factions. There is also a distinct lack of modern buildings that don't look too futuristic. The buildings tinted darker helps gives the feelings of the being gothic since imperial buildings looks gothic. I will have to work with what is available.

I might have misread things, my head isn't very clear these days.
I just rewatched your triggers, they don't leak.
However, I remember why it tilted me a bit : the damned one line filters.
They are ugly, atrocious to maintain and to read.
You better have to make a if-then-else filter in the unit loop, so you can more easily maintain.

Oh, I see what you mean. I agree with you. I will update my trigerring too.

Unarmored would be counter productive, as she would be too squishy against what she's supposed to counter siege in close quarters.
She would better fit as a battlefield stunner : she would jump into a location and automatically do a war stomp and a very short invulnerability to make her at least useful.
You can make her a melee unit, but I might alterate too much your lore.
Keep her heavy armor & piercing attacks if she's still ranged, or make her short ranged (200-250) with normal damage, compensated by a slighlty higher punch (+1 damage & +1 dice).

Yeah, the Unarmored idea came to me from NE huntress. I thought more about it and decided her armor should be heavy with a barrage ability to damage 1 more unit and Battle Sister armor with medium. Their hp and grenades also slighty increased as I mentioned in the v1.2 changelog. Nice idea though, I would put it in the maybe pile.

Ground transport is not much usefull in Warcraft 3, since the battle scale isn't significant. Also the narrow passes would make it a poisoned gift.
You could however make it fire faster if you load with military units : you can "save" a injured gal without loosing all of her abilities and DPS.

Well ground transport is not that useful I agree. So kinda like orc burrow? I don't know seems to go against the Martyrdom mechanic in general. I would also put it in the maybe pile.

You can make them explose at death lol.
More seriously, the grenade system isn't a fault here : the problem resides on the number of grenade to fire.
It could be the same burning effect as other flamethrowers, but they wouldn't stack too.

Nah. I already used explode at death ability for the generator and immolator, too repetitive.

The Exorcist splash seems a bit too strong.
The Living saint gets tornado'd by the night elf talon druids too easily. Maybe give her magic immunity?

Noted, I will take a look again.
Magic immunity might be too unfun. I will add Resistant Skin to the living saint to reduce the duration of such spells.

As to the Immolator being a transport in the codex:

Interesting fact, I didn't know that. You learn something new everyday.

 

[FlameofChange]

Another test was made. It's better on some points, but the balance is still a big concern.
Your units field so much DPS with so little drawback they annihilate anything in front of them.
I would even destroy 1v2 insane computers with some training.
Many points are those which I forgot on previous tests, so they pile up on top of the new problems.
On the other hand, the reworks fixed some of the worst broken points, so you get your second star from me !
(In general a one star faction doesn't mean it's shit in my notation : it means it have plenty of space to be improved)

Quality of Life
☼ Map balance is still 1.0 melee, set it to latest patch (for example the hall of the dead doesn't have ice attacks)
☼ Flamethrower & Exorcist attack sound are annoying, even worse when taking in account their absurd attack rate & their large numbers
☼ I would replace the "Reduce to 85% damage taken" to "Multiply received damage by 0.85", as well as similar occurrences
☼ Bullet speed feels sluggish
☼ Hero glow doesn't follow player color by default (I picked orange but got red glows)
☼ Hospitaliers not having an attack makes them stupid when attack-moving the whole army somewhere : they don't stay back as they continue their way to quite hostile grounds. You can give them a shitty attack, worse than a priest, but at least it would save some useless micro
☼ If you want to polish further your map, you can replace the fire orb by a custom orb of your choice, for example when the hero dies it will give bonus damage to every ally for a duration (if you have something else in mind, you call)

Balance
☼ General stuff
► In the current status of the faction, you don't even need the Seraphim, grenades, air nor the angel since the basic units & buffs gives plenty of power to destroy anything
► The war mill cost is too cheap compared to the orc one. You can if you want make a slightly more expansive version of the orc war mill
► Early healing is quite harsh, since the only source is your missionary. Notice that each faction have an early form of healing beside heroes, you can take inspiration from it to make your own. No need of something spicy or strong.
► When mid game is reached, it's just a matter of attack moving to the next base & occasionally click on the heals ; it quickly gets boring from being OP

☼ Flame sisters OP
► The upgrades & martyr gives them too much DPS for her price (remember it's +4 damage per hit, so fast firing units would have much higher DPS !)
► AoE damage makes them much too dangerous at Tier 2, and hard to counter at tier 3
► To fix it, increase the base damage and decrease the attack rate

☼ Celestians become from broken to too strong & out of place
► Tier 2 unit with high DPS
► Too expensive for a 4 food & T2 unit
► Siege DPS too strong

☼ Hospitalier
► The upgraded heal is too strong, 40hp per second for 5 mana on a unit costing the same as a priest is overwhelming. While I'm not against a heal upgrade, I would severely reduce the bonus from +15 to +3 for example, compensated by for example increasing a bit her adept ability on upgrade. Another solution would be to keep the +15 heal but also increase the cost by +3 mana. The heal would be faster but still costing the same ratio.

☼ Exorcist
► The range is too damn high. Artillery is supposed to be 1000-1150, you could go to 1200-1300 for an exceptional artillery, but 1550 breaks a bit the basis of the game. In general you can somewhat counter siege with siege in a battle of micro. Here if the enemy doesn't have air units, he's screwed. "Make some air duh" indeed, but what if the other faction doesn't have potent air ?
► The damage is upgraded too much. At first 16-28 is much correct for its price, taking in account the other drawbacks. However it finishes at 19-67, with a 1.3 fire rate ! This makes on average 33 DPS without splash, which is almost double as a Demolisher having a comparable cost. The simple fix would be to reduce the damage per dice from 13 to 5-6, increase the base damage from 15 to 30, and the attack rate from 1.3 to 2.6 : faster than any artillery, but will get comparable DPS. Early would be 31-36, and late would be 34-54.

☼ Tower a bit odd, high tech but have a lower DPS than a human guard tower
► I would make it closer to a ancient protector in term of stats : slow but strong attack
► Compensate the higher stats with higher build time

☼ Generators
► A bit too cheap for +8 food, and also takes a lot of space, I would increase price & food to 10
► No need to change the space, as it is a well intended strategic drawback
► The explosion at death is underwhelming, 200 range is low and the damage isn't much high. To make it more dangerous I would make a staggered damage depending on the range, with higher effects on buildings. With some luck we could have chain reactions lol

☼ Missionary
► Lay Hand is underwhelming at early stages, and too strong in late game. I would make it more consistent (15/20/25%) with a heal cap (for example 500/1000/1500)
► Emperor protect is too strong when used on allied heroes. Get a big bad voodoo ally and you see the problem. The cost & cooldown is also too low. My take is to double the cost & cooldown, and make it last 10s on a hero (unit is still 60s). When finished, the effect would continue as a bonus armor for the same duration for example.

☼ Assassin
► Death dance too strong from both damage, utilitarian benefit and cost. I would reduce the slashes from 5/6/7 to 4/5/6, and damage from 30/45/55 to 30/40/50. If it's still too strong, I would increase mana to 80 or 85.
► Slitteros sinergises too well with the death dance, since you can pile too much damage on the same target. Well her role is an assassin, but here it is too strong. I would reduce damage from 50/70/90 to 40/60/80, with max damage of 80/120/160 per trip per projectile : effective when there's few targets, but harder to use on larger battlefields.

 

[Fleck]

Map balance is still 1.0 melee, set it to latest patch (for example the hall of the dead doesn't have ice attacks)

Huh, I though that was automatic. Fixed.

I would replace the "Reduce to 85% damage taken" to "Multiply received damage by 0.85", as well as similar occurrences

You mean Administer Painkiller? Hm, the tooltip I written is pretty clear. When I read "Multiply received damage by 0.85" it gives the opposite image for me.

Bullet speed feels sluggish

I increased Battle Sister and Seraphim projectile speed from 900 to 1100.

Hero glow doesn't follow player color by default (I picked orange but got red glows)

Yea, I noticed that sometimes. Don't know what causes it though. I can fix it if I edit the hero models though, maybe in future updates.

Hospitaliers not having an attack makes them stupid when attack-moving the whole army somewhere : they don't stay back as they continue their way to quite hostile grounds. You can give them a shitty attack, worse than a priest, but at least it would save some useless micro

I didn't know that. Added weak attack.

If you want to polish further your map, you can replace the fire orb by a custom orb of your choice, for example when the hero dies it will give bonus damage to every ally for a duration (if you have something else in mind, you call)

Sure, if I can think of something.

In the current status of the faction, you don't even need the Seraphim, grenades, air nor the angel since the basic units & buffs gives plenty of power to destroy anything

You referring to the battle sister flamer right? I reduced their attack cooldown from 0.5 to 0.8, increased attack damage 7-9 to 9-11, reduced their area of effect 105, 115, 125 to 25, 50, 125 and damage factor from 0.90, 0.80 to 0.40, 0.10

The war mill cost is too cheap compared to the orc one. You can if you want make a slightly more expansive version of the orc war mill

Increased Pristine Sanctuary gold cost from 140 to 185.

Early healing is quite harsh, since the only source is your missionary. Notice that each faction have an early form of healing beside heroes, you can take inspiration from it to make your own. No need of something spicy or strong.

Added Scroll of Regeneration to Adepta Sororitas Armorium.

Celestians become from broken to too strong & out of place

Right, so I reduced their attack cooldown from 0.6 to 1.3, damage from 13-21 to 11-15, gold cost from 360 to 255, lumber cost from 100 to 60. Is this balanced enough in your opinion?

The upgraded heal is too strong, 40hp per second for 5 mana on a unit costing the same as a priest is overwhelming. While I'm not against a heal upgrade, I would severely reduce the bonus from +15 to +3 for example, compensated by for example increasing a bit her adept ability on upgrade. Another solution would be to keep the +15 heal but also increase the cost by +3 mana. The heal would be faster but still costing the same ratio.

Noted, I increased the mana cost to 8.

Exorcist

Sounds sensible. I have rebalanced Exorcist again.

Tower a bit odd, high tech but have a lower DPS than a human guard tower

Well, I was planning to add limited number of holy icon upgrade to the tower which grants faith generation, increased health and same sight during day. For the time being, I changed Seraphim attack cooldown from 0.90 to 1.20 and increased their attack damage from 23-27 to 27-31.

Generators
► A bit too cheap for +8 food, and also takes a lot of space, I would increase price & food to 10
► No need to change the space, as it is a well intended strategic drawback
► The explosion at death is underwhelming, 200 range is low and the damage isn't much high. To make it more dangerous I would make a staggered damage depending on the range, with higher effects on buildings. With some luck we could have chain reactions lol

Interesting idea though I'm not certain I can do staggered damage based on distance but I can add knockback to the explosion.

Missionary
► Lay Hand is underwhelming at early stages, and too strong in late game. I would make it more consistent (15/20/25%) with a heal cap (for example 500/1000/1500)
► Emperor protect is too strong when used on allied heroes. Get a big bad voodoo ally and you see the problem. The cost & cooldown is also too low. My take is to double the cost & cooldown, and make it last 10s on a hero (unit is still 60s). When finished, the effect would continue as a bonus armor for the same duration for example.

Noted and rebalanced, though I'm also not certain I can do a heal cap but I will try.
Noted, The Emperor Protects I based the cooldown and mana cost from the Paladin's Divine Shield. Mana cost increased from 60 to 75, cooldown from 60 to 80.

Assassin
► Death dance too strong from both damage, utilitarian benefit and cost. I would reduce the slashes from 5/6/7 to 4/5/6, and damage from 30/45/55 to 30/40/50. If it's still too strong, I would increase mana to 80 or 85.
► Slitteros sinergises too well with the death dance, since you can pile too much damage on the same target. Well her role is an assassin, but here it is too strong. I would reduce damage from 50/70/90 to 40/60/80, with max damage of 80/120/160 per trip per projectile : effective when there's few targets, but harder to use on larger battlefields.

Rebalanced according to your suggestions though I'm not certain I can implement the damage cap.

 

[FlameofChange]

1.4 test here. At last the faction shifted from broken to just strong. You also get a third star !

General
☼ Flamer upgrades costs -115 gold because Warcraft 3 computes the cost difference between both units
☼ Lay hands shows some debug messages
☼ Healer icon looks a bit flattened
☼ Laud Hailers icon take the same spot as the 3rd hero in the altar, could be a bit odd for regular players the first time
☼ Tower still bellow average, and takes quite a lot of space for its price & defense output
☼ Divine retribution is broken (I just noticed it now) :
► On paper, it returns 5/10/15% of damage
► On practice, it returns 105/110/115% of damage !
► It also damages back buildings !
► In its trigger, just change the factors from 1.05/1.1/1.15 to 0.05/0.1/0.15
► I would nerf it to 5/9/13%, with a capped damage at impact, reduced against magic resistant enemies & not affecting immune or invulnerable.
► The effect also stacks if you have 3 Missionaries with 3 different levels !
► It also can do a disastrous recursive effect, because if two enemy units hit each others with the buff, they both die since the damage triggers back & forth infinitely

Battle sister
☼ If you want to keep the 2 food cost, she's a bit too cheap for what she can DPS. I would increase the price by 5-10 gold, but even more would be too harsh.
☼ When taking an ability out of a unit, the whole squad cannot use it unless you select each sisters one by one.

Seraphim
☼ A bit too frail for her price. I would increase HP to 490-500 to compensate. Since she's a sort of ranged grunt you can start from here to balance her. If you want to make her even more tanky, also reduce the range to compensate too.
☼ The jump ability would benefit from a much faster airtime for better responsiveness. This would make the unit strategically more interesting.

Celestian
☼ Now we nerfed the shit out of her, the unit becomes too expensive for what she can field. Same solutions for the Exorcist (see bellow) : make it cheaper OR increase the base damage.
☼ Since she's an anti-armor/siege unit, you could give her a passive related ability. For example bonus damage against high armor, or towers, you call

Immolator
☼ 20 seconds training time ?
☼ Same problem as the older Exorcist : high lumber cost. Goblin shredder : you know the drill.
☼ 300 speed may be counter-productive for a heavy vehicle, as it also have high HP and armor. You can set it to regular 270 to follow infantry, or a bit slower if it's still too strong for your taste.

Exorcist
☼ We are getting in a sweet spot for that unit, but now her impact is too little for her price. We have different solutions :
► Reduce the price (so it's easier to mass & spam)
OR
► Increase a bit the base damage (so you have a better DPS for food ratio)
☼ The missile would be a bit too strong, my take is to replace it by a one shot rocket barrage against units in the targeted area (it fits the organ theme eh)

Marauder Bomber
☼ It has roughly the same cost as a Frost wyrm, but has much less threat on battlefield from its attack type, AoE and range. I would make it cheaper
☼ Giving it Heavy armor won't be a problem, you call
☼ The anti-air attack doesn't benefit the bomber, as it would sometimes prefer to target shitty air instead of flattening well the ground. You can replace it with an auto-attack if you want, so the bomber would concentrate better on the ground.

Ranks updated

Spoiler

☼ Aesthetics A
Too few changes to reflect any improvement in the notation. Custom models are nice but they still feel a bit clumsy. Not much a problem anyway.

☼ Feel & juice S-
What you lost here by balancing the broken stuff is improved by some new details I discovered.
Spells are pleasant and give good feels. Tweaking some projectiles & special effects aren't much but every bit pushes the juice forward.
Don't hesitate to touch projectile arc, speed, swing, etc

☼ Strategy and tactic C+ to B+
It is much more clear now, but the "exotic" units aren't well placed yet. It is a matter of testing & rework like any faction.

☼ Balance F+ to C
Early game & late game is much less broken.
However some units are too much nerfed, which becomes meh on some situations.
Now the faction would be way more easier to balance nonetheless.
(I haven't counted the broken elements from triggering & object errors since they are easy to fix)

☼ Content D- to B+
While you haven't added any ground breaking features (one unit, one item and few upgrades), the current units are much more coherent between each others.

☼ Handling & ergonomics B-
Not much changed. The grenades are still a bit of a concern.

☼ Triggers, code, overall polishing B- to B
Some tweaks in unit data & triggers. It's ain't much but it's honest work.

☼ Overall tier E+ to C+
We are getting here, slowly but steady. From a broken shoop da woop we now get a rough faction around the edges yet much better on both paper and practice.

☼ Personal taste C to B
I'm starting to like this faction more and more. Balance is still a concern of course but the power is much less dumb.

 

[Fleck]

Flamer upgrades costs -115 gold because Warcraft 3 computes the cost difference between both units

Strange, it works before. I'm certain it was caused by updating the map Game Data Set to the latest patch. It also changed the HP of the inferno turret from 500 to 300 though I noticed that and fixed it.

Lay hands shows some debug messages

D'oh! Forgot to hide that.

Healer icon looks a bit flattened

Yea, maybe I will replace it with a model screenshot in future updates.

Laud Hailers icon take the same spot as the 3rd hero in the altar, could be a bit odd for regular players the first time

Yea but this is the best place to place that aura since it looks the least odd.

Tower still bellow average, and takes quite a lot of space for its price & defense output

I added Holy Icon upgrade now though the faith system doesn't works yet.

Divine retribution is broken
► On paper, it returns 5/10/15% of damage
► On practice, it returns 105/110/115% of damage !
► It also damages back buildings !

Fixed!

I would nerf it to 5/9/13%, with a capped damage at impact, reduced against magic resistant enemies & not affecting immune or invulnerable.

Good catch. I just tested Keeper of the Groves' Thorns Aura and it does not affect immune units though I'm not certain against magic resistant units. Resistant Skin only reduces duration of negative spells and renders the unit immune to certain spells

The effect also stacks if you have 3 Missionaries with 3 different levels !

Right I added more conditions to prevent that.

It also can do a disastrous recursive effect, because if two enemy units hit each others with the buff, they both die since the damage triggers back & forth infinitely

I don't think it triggers back & forth infinitely. The Physical Damage Detection system I uses differentiate between physical damage (melee and ranged attacks), spell damage and code damage (triggers).

Battle sister
☼ If you want to keep the 2 food cost, she's a bit too cheap for what she can DPS. I would increase the price by 5-10 gold, but even more would be too harsh.
☼ When taking an ability out of a unit, the whole squad cannot use it unless you select each sisters one by one.

Right, it does help with Quality of Life but I don't know how to fix that. I will research that on my free time.

Seraphim
☼ A bit too frail for her price. I would increase HP to 490-500 to compensate. Since she's a sort of ranged grunt you can start from here to balance her. If you want to make her even more tanky, also reduce the range to compensate too.
☼ The jump ability would benefit from a much faster airtime for better responsiveness. This would make the unit strategically more interesting

Reduced Seraphim attack range from 335 to 300, increased HP from 460 to 490.
You mean a faster jump? Sure I increased Seraphim jump speed.

Celestian
☼ Now we nerfed the shit out of her, the unit becomes too expensive for what she can field. Same solutions for the Exorcist (see bellow) : make it cheaper OR increase the base damage.
☼ Since she's an anti-armor/siege unit, you could give her a passive related ability. For example bonus damage against high armor, or towers, you call

Rebalanced again with increased base damage by 2.
I will add a stacking armor debuff passive ability (3, 6) for 10 seconds to mechanical units and structures. As always, I would be interested in hearing if my idea is balanced or not.

Immolator
☼ 20 seconds training time ?
☼ Same problem as the older Exorcist : high lumber cost. Goblin shredder : you know the drill.
☼ 300 speed may be counter-productive for a heavy vehicle, as it also have high HP and armor. You can set it to regular 270 to follow infantry, or a bit slower if it's still too strong for your taste.

Rebalanced increased Immolator build time from 20 to 35, increased gold cost from 175 to 210, lumber cost from 125 to 80.
Hm, isn't it better to faster than infantry since Immolator have short range with high HP and armor to soak up damage?

Exorcist
☼ We are getting in a sweet spot for that unit, but now her impact is too little for her price. We have different solutions :
► Reduce the price (so it's easier to mass & spam)
OR
► Increase a bit the base damage (so you have a better DPS for food ratio)
☼ The missile would be a bit too strong, my take is to replace it by a one shot rocket barrage against units in the targeted area (it fits the organ theme eh)

I decided to increase the base damage by 2.
Good idea, I will add it to the idea pile. For now the current skill oneshot too.

Marauder Bomber
☼ It has roughly the same cost as a Frost wyrm, but has much less threat on battlefield from its attack type, AoE and range. I would make it cheaper
☼ Giving it Heavy armor won't be a problem, you call
☼ The anti-air attack doesn't benefit the bomber, as it would sometimes prefer to target shitty air instead of flattening well the ground. You can replace it with an auto-attack if you want, so the bomber would concentrate better on the ground.

Rebalanced with decreased Marauder Bomber gold cost from 390 to 365, lumber cost from 130 to 110. armor type changed from Light to Heavy and auto attack added.

 

[FlameofChange]

Hm, isn't it better to faster than infantry since Immolator have short range with high HP and armor to soak up damage?

In war history, tanks were sometimes divided into two types :
☼ Infantry tanks : slow, armored, here to break fortifications, give cover to infantry and support their advance. They don't need to be fast since they advance at the same time as infantry
☼ Cavalry tanks : fast, here to scout, flank enemies and hunt other tanks if needed.

Here, your immolator is by no mean a fast vehicle, and flamethrowers has more a breakthrough role against defensive positions.
Also your jump ability gives mobility strategies already.

I don't think it triggers back & forth infinitely. The Physical Damage Detection system I uses differentiate between physical damage (melee and ranged attacks), spell damage and code damage (triggers).

My bad then.

Yea but this is the best place to place that aura since it looks the least odd.

The trick is to make a second icon with another coordinate. Nothing fancy, I also did it myself on several of my factions when location is tricky.

Right, it does help with Quality of Life but I don't know how to fix that. I will research that on my free time.

Just put an absurd reload time, or make a trigger to make it reload again and again.

 

[Fleck]

In war history, tanks were sometimes divided into two types :
☼ Infantry tanks : slow, armored, here to break fortifications, give cover to infantry and support their advance. They don't need to be fast since they advance at the same time as infantry
☼ Cavalry tanks : fast, here to scout, flank enemies and hunt other tanks if needed.

Here, your immolator is by no mean a fast vehicle, and flamethrowers has more a breakthrough role against defensive positions.
Also your jump ability gives mobility strategies already.

Ok, I will reduce the speed to 270 in the next update.

The trick is to make a second icon with another coordinate. Nothing fancy, I also did it myself on several of my factions when location is tricky.

Yea, I will do that in the future updates.

Just put an absurd reload time, or make a trigger to make it reload again and again.

Good idea in theory but I just tested it, it makes the ability unusable but the icon looks active instead of darkened normally. Perhaps this is different in higher patches?
Could you elaborate on how make a trigger to make it reload again and again? If you mean make battle sister cancel the cast order then that might mess with the AI since it also uses the custom ability.

 

[FlameofChange]

1.5 test here. I played the units I wasn't using in the tests until now, ah shit here we go again.

General
☼ Master Hospitaller training available at Tier 2 ?
☼ Barrack is too small, you save too much space
☼ You can make the generators bigger with a larger explosion range, to give some strategic drawbacks
☼ The previous movement speed nerf for some units are biting our ass again.
► Revert Celestian movement speed to 270
► Revert Exorcist movement speed to 220 (same as any siege unit)

Seraphim
I never noticed before the double barrel. She becomes broken as fuck for a Tier 1.5 unit since you have the starting DPS of 2 grunts for the price of 1.
You could increase the attack cooldown from 1.35 to 2.7, and reduce the damage per dice to 3.

Celestian
It is still a too pricey unit for what she can field. The damage is alright but the cost makes it too risky.
The armor reduction is a clever buff, but makes night elf buildings melt away too easily coupled with bombers.
My way of balancing her :
☼ Armor reduction per hit reduced from 3 to 1
☼ Armor reduction cannot make the armor negative
☼ Cost reduced from 255/60/4 to 200/45/3
☼ Projectile speed increased from 900 to 1500
The cost reduction would make the Celestian easier to complement any army, providing anti-armor when needed.

Fighter
I used them on mass, while the suppressing fire is interesting on paper, it have so much DPS & mobility it becomes so broken against... anything. Really. Even heroes struggles to deal with them since there's not much abilities to counter mass mechanical air (maybe starfall but the fighter could just fly away like it's nothing).
For a bit more than a flying machine you have the fastest unit of the game with twice the DPS of a wind rider, and only costing 2 food.
Well, it struggles a bit to concentrate fire when not directly controlled, and they can be cracked if you forget some on enemy towers, but it have so much power for so little drawbacks. Cherry on the shit they are trained faster than a footman.
My way of balancing it :
☼ Base damage increased from 8 to 27
☼ Damage per dice increased from 2 to 4
☼ Cooldown time increased from 0.3 to 1.75
☼ Range decreased from 650 to 375
☼ Range against air units set to 500
☼ HP increased from 375 to 525
☼ Reinforced Hull plating HP bonus reduced from 150 to 50 on Fighters (other units are unchanged)
☼ Cost increased from 100/35/2 to 230/40/4
☼ Build & repair time increased from 16 to 35
☼ Reduce the movement speed (you can change & test the values in the imported trigger withing the globals section)
☼ Suppressive fire damage reduction reduced from 25% to 15%
☼ Suppressive fire duration reduced from 10 to 5 seconds
☼ Order the Fighter to go to the rally point when trained
So the role of this unit is to scout and reduce enemy firepower while challenging other air units. Done.
Then I adjusted its attack to be more consistent with Warcraft 3 : much closer to a Wind rider, but trading DPS for mobility, support and resistance.
You may give it a better attack projectile of your choice.

 

[deepstrasz]

Kind of weird the turret shoots one bolt of fire but has two pipes.
Jump can get you stuck between trees or doodads; sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn't.

Generally, nice but pretty much Warcraft III styled faction.

Approved.

---

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[Fleck]

1.5 test here. I played the units I wasn't using in the tests until now, ah shit here we go again.

General
☼ Master Hospitaller training available at Tier 2 ?
☼ Barrack is too small, you save too much space
☼ You can make the generators bigger with a larger explosion range, to give some strategic drawbacks
☼ The previous movement speed nerf for some units are biting our ass again.
► Revert Celestian movement speed to 270
► Revert Exorcist movement speed to 220 (same as any siege unit)

Seraphim
I never noticed before the double barrel. She becomes broken as fuck for a Tier 1.5 unit since you have the starting DPS of 2 grunts for the price of 1.
You could increase the attack cooldown from 1.35 to 2.7, and reduce the damage per dice to 3.

Celestian
It is still a too pricey unit for what she can field. The damage is alright but the cost makes it too risky.
The armor reduction is a clever buff, but makes night elf buildings melt away too easily coupled with bombers.
My way of balancing her :
☼ Armor reduction per hit reduced from 3 to 1
☼ Armor reduction cannot make the armor negative
☼ Cost reduced from 255/60/4 to 200/45/3
☼ Projectile speed increased from 900 to 1500
The cost reduction would make the Celestian easier to complement any army, providing anti-armor when needed.

Fighter
I used them on mass, while the suppressing fire is interesting on paper, it have so much DPS & mobility it becomes so broken against... anything. Really. Even heroes struggles to deal with them since there's not much abilities to counter mass mechanical air (maybe starfall but the fighter could just fly away like it's nothing).
For a bit more than a flying machine you have the fastest unit of the game with twice the DPS of a wind rider, and only costing 2 food.
Well, it struggles a bit to concentrate fire when not directly controlled, and they can be cracked if you forget some on enemy towers, but it have so much power for so little drawbacks. Cherry on the shit they are trained faster than a footman.
My way of balancing it :
☼ Base damage increased from 8 to 27
☼ Damage per dice increased from 2 to 4
☼ Cooldown time increased from 0.3 to 1.75
☼ Range decreased from 650 to 375
☼ Range against air units set to 500
☼ HP increased from 375 to 525
☼ Reinforced Hull plating HP bonus reduced from 150 to 50 on Fighters (other units are unchanged)
☼ Cost increased from 100/35/2 to 230/40/4
☼ Build & repair time increased from 16 to 35
☼ Reduce the movement speed (you can change & test the values in the imported trigger withing the globals section)
☼ Suppressive fire damage reduction reduced from 25% to 15%
☼ Suppressive fire duration reduced from 10 to 5 seconds
☼ Order the Fighter to go to the rally point when trained
So the role of this unit is to scout and reduce enemy firepower while challenging other air units. Done.
Then I adjusted its attack to be more consistent with Warcraft 3 : much closer to a Wind rider, but trading DPS for mobility, support and resistance.
You may give it a better attack projectile of your choice.

Note that Dual Bolt Pistols only applies to ground units.
I implemented most of your balance suggestions.
Made qol improvement to Phosphor Grenades though Krak Grenades and Hunter-Killer Missile still disappear and needs to select the units manually.
And added the faith system.

Kind of weird the turret shoots one bolt of fire but has two pipes.
Jump can get you stuck between trees or doodads; sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn't.

Generally, nice but pretty much Warcraft III styled faction.

Approved.

---

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Yay!
For Jump, I will see what I can do but no promises though.

 

[CollectorofStoriesUntold]

So, I played in 3 matches. When I used a scroll of town portal, I crashed. The technical details have previously been handled by FlameofChange, the review master. I want to talk about the map's visual appeal.

First of all, it's difficult for the eyes to focus on one thing because of the case of text block in your tooltips. Use brighter colors to break up text and draw attention to key points. Attempt to put QWER-ASDF-ZXCV as your hotkeys. These enhancements makes the factions functions easier to use and comprehend.

Here are some examples for improvements

• Units

"The Emperor is our Father and our Guardian, but we must also Guard the Emperor."
Basic short-ranged attacker. Can learn the Phosphor Grenades upgrade. Can also be equiped with the Flamer heavy weapon.

Attacks land and air units.

~To~

Basic short-ranged attacker. Can learn the Phosphor Grenades upgrade. Can also be equiped with the Flamer heavy weapon.

Attacks land and air units.

"The Emperor is our Father and our Guardian, but we must also Guard the Emperor."

• Upgrades

Gives Battle Sister the Phosphor Grenades ability. Phosphor Grenades deals damage to enemy land units within the targeted area. Enemy land units in the ablaze targeted area take damage over time.

~To~

Allows Battle Sisters to use Phosphor Grenades ability. Phosphor Grenades deal damage to enemy land units within the targeted area. Enemy land units in the ablaze targeted area take damage over time.

and

Enables the use of Laud Hailer Aura by the Ecclesiarchal Chapels, Ecclesiarchal Cathedrals, Ecclesiarchal Citadels, Adepta Sororitas Convents, Pristine Sanctuaries, Legatines' Priories, Manufactorums, and Holy Reliquaries. Laud Hailer Aura decreases the attack damage of nearby non-mechanical enemy units by 5%.

~To~

Enables the use of Laud Hailer Ability by Buildings to decreases the attack damage of nearby non-mechanical enemy units.

Effects:
- Ecclesiarchal Chapels
- Ecclesiarchal Cathedrals
- Ecclesiarchal Citadels
- Adepta Sororitas Convents
- Pristine Sanctuaries
- Legatines' Priories
- Manufactorums
- Holy Reliquaries

• Abilities

Throws a Phosphor Grenade at the targeted area that causes 45 damage to enemy non-mechanical land units caught within 200 range when the Phosphor Grenade reach the targeted area. The targeted area are set ablaze dealing 2 damage per second for 8 seconds.

Can only be used once.

~To~

Throw a Phosphor Grenade at the targeted area. Deals 45 damage to enemy non-mechanical land units caught within 200 radius. The targeted area is set ablaze dealing 2 damage per second for 8 seconds.

Can only be used once.

• Tooltip Hotkeys

Research Laud Hailers

~To~

Research Laud Hailers - [Q]

- Second is the The classic UI Along edge in widescreen. I'll provide a transparent UI\Console\Human\HumanUITile05.blp and UI\Console\Human\HumanUITile06.blp

- Here are some resources to help improve the map.

For added 40kness use the birth animation attachment From Futuristic buildings it's the building drop ship.
I recommend to get the Wc3 Universal Calculator & Colorizer v5.3.2 its a incredible help with tooltips.
Tip: if you write out tooltips in a work doc with the spacing and then copy it into the editor you don't need the use |n.

- Possible alternate building models:
Adepta Sororitas Convents - WCII_Church, WC2 Church, Church
Manufactorums - Factory
Power generator - PowerFacility

- For additional visual improvement i recommened useing some custom health bars and selection circles:
I recomend the Diagonal bar from Health Bars v1.30 for a more industrial look.
Selection Circles v1.50 contains some more scifish circles

Over it a good transfer from DOW. I'm transferring StarCraft to wc3 as a side thing myself. A trick I learned to get the feel of the combat of future weapons is to try to match the DPS rather than the flat damage. I like to see these kinds of maps, it's fun to see different universes clash. Keep up the good work.

If you want to take a look and get some ideas heres a link to a design doc I started while back for my own vision A SOB style race Race: Mothers of Conflict.

Edit: i added the wrong link for an alternate Adepta Sororitas Convents. I added the correct ones.

 

[Fleck]

Thanks for the review Seyahnayr.

When I used a scroll of town portal, I crashed.

Hm, I was unable to replicate this crash. Does it happen every time you used a scroll of town portal on the sisters townhalls? Or any townhalls?

I want to talk about the map's visual appeal.

I'm conflicted while yes colorcoded tooltips does help with readability it does stray from vanilla tooltips. I will definitely consider it and the hotkeys especially in my future maps. I'm not sure about the quotes being in the bottom. In maps I seen, its always in the top.

- Second is the The classic UI Along edge in widescreen. I'll provide a transparent UI\Console\Human\HumanUITile05.blp and UI\Console\Human\HumanUITile06.blp

I imported it though I can't test it since I don't have reforged. Just comment if it doesn't works properly.

For added 40kness use the birth animation attachment From Futuristic buildings it's the building drop ship.
I recommend to get the Wc3 Universal Calculator & Colorizer v5.3.2 its a incredible help with tooltips.
Tip: if you write out tooltips in a work doc with the spacing and then copy it into the editor you don't need the use |n.

Yea, I will definitely use that birth animation in my next 40k altered melee though not in Sisters of Battle since I eventually plan to merge all of my maps in a single map and I would like make all of them visually distinct.
Thanks for linking Wc3 Universal Calculator & Colorizer, might prove useful in balancing maps. I use JNGP and that comes automatically Risc's Colorizer.
Cool protip. Do |n still properly works in latest patches? I remember reading a thread that |n doesn't works anymore like it used to.

- Possible alternate building models:
Adepta Sororitas Convents - Scarlet Monastery
Manufactorums - Factory
Power generator - PowerFacility

Well I'm already using the Scarlet Monastery model for the Tier 3 Townhall Ecclesiarchal Citadel.
The Factory is a nice but I feels it doesn't mesh well with its red bricks compared to the grey bricks of all the other buidlings.
The Plasma Generator model will also remain the same. I already planned to use Ket's PowerFacility for my next 40k altered melee.

- For additional visual improvement i recommened useing some custom health bars and selection circles:
I recomend the Diagonal bar from Health Bars v1.30 for a more industrial look.
Selection Circles v1.50 contains some more scifish circles

I did not know such resources existed. I'm definitely using it.

Over it a good transfer from DOW. I'm transferring StarCraft to wc3 as a side thing myself. A trick I learned to get the feel of the combat of future weapons is to try to match the DPS rather than the flat damage. I like to see these kinds of maps, it's fun to see different universes clash. Keep up the good work.

If you want to take a look and get some ideas heres a link to a design doc I started while back for my own vision A SOB style race Race: Mothers of Conflict.

Thanks for sharing. I gotten a couple of ideas from reading your design doc.

 

[FlameofChange]

1.7 test here, with the following edits
☼ Vehicle carry size reduced to 2, and movement set to foot (like any vehicle/artillery)
☼ Angel level reduced from 9 to 7
☼ Seraphim cooldown time increased from 1.35 to 2.7
☼ Battle sister (non-flame) and Seraphim bullet speed increased from 1100 to 1500 (faster than an arrow)
☼ Aura of faith bonus reduced from 5/10/15% to 5/9/12% (a late game flat +15% is quite menacing)
☼ Slitteros range reduced from 700 to 500, damage per trip per projectile reduced from 40/60/80 to 40/50/60
☼ Fighter price increased from 100/35/2 to 235/40/4
☼ Funding reduced from 500/500 to 400/200
☼ Phosphor grenade requirement fixed
☼ Deleted the orc burrow you placed between player 1 and 2

Even in the 1.6 the game freezes just about mid-game for a reason I haven't figured out yet.
So, I cannot test it further. I cannot reproduce the freeze.
But with the few gametime I had, the early game is much less broken since the enemies aren't longer vaporized before the sis could get damaged. Micro gets more intense and it is more interesting.

 

[Fleck]

1.7 test here, with the following edits
☼ Vehicle carry size reduced to 2, and movement set to foot (like any vehicle/artillery)
☼ Angel level reduced from 9 to 7
☼ Seraphim cooldown time increased from 1.35 to 2.7
☼ Battle sister (non-flame) and Seraphim bullet speed increased from 1100 to 1500 (faster than an arrow)
☼ Aura of faith bonus reduced from 5/10/15% to 5/9/12% (a late game flat +15% is quite menacing)
☼ Slitteros range reduced from 700 to 500, damage per trip per projectile reduced from 40/60/80 to 40/50/60
☼ Fighter price increased from 100/35/2 to 235/40/4
☼ Funding reduced from 500/500 to 400/200
☼ Phosphor grenade requirement fixed
☼ Deleted the orc burrow you placed between player 1 and 2

Even in the 1.6 the game freezes just about mid-game for a reason I haven't figured out yet.
So, I cannot test it further. I cannot reproduce the freeze.
But with the few gametime I had, the early game is much less broken since the enemies aren't longer vaporized before the sis could get damaged. Micro gets more intense and it is more interesting.

I have rebalanced them. Seems like I overlooked Seraphim and Lightning Fighter when rebalacing during v1.6
D'oh! Forgot to remove that and the wisps after testing the generator delayed explosion and glorious martyrdom.

I will try to play a full game to see if I can replicate the crash and freeze once I have free time. Yea, I'm planning to add a couple of more abilities to the Scared Rites.

 

[CollectorofStoriesUntold]

Hm, I was unable to replicate this crash. Does it happen every time you used a scroll of town portal on the sisters townhalls? Or any townhalls?

I think it was the crash FlameofChange mentioned. If you have a spell book leveling by a upgrade that may be the problem. Change it to do so via a trigger. That was how I fixed a similar crash in a map I made.

I'm conflicted while yes colorcoded tooltips does help with readability it does stray from vanilla tooltips. I will definitely consider it and the hotkeys especially in my future maps. I'm not sure about the quotes being in the bottom. In maps I seen, its always in the top.

While good it stick to the vinnia style, if you believe something can improve it do so. As for the location of quote, I've had the opposite experience and that how it is in the descriptions of the artifact item in the vanilla game.

If want good examples of this stlye of tooltips look at any of Wa666r's maps and for quotes in tooltips look at Shadow Covenant

Having the quote on the bottom allows the player access to the important information about the unit first. The flavor text dose not effect the gameplay itself. A the very least putting a gap between the quote and the rest of the tooltip to make the two parts the tooltip easer to tell apart.

Well I'm already using the Scarlet Monastery model for the Tier 3 Townhall Ecclesiarchal Citadel.

I originally pasted the wrong link. I changed it to three different variations of the wc2 church. the reason I posted these is because the boxes the church model your using breaks away from rest of the buildings.

Fix the scaling of the 3rd tier town hall as it become too big.

Thanks for linking Wc3 Universal Calculator & Colorizer, might prove useful in balancing maps. I use JNGP and that comes automatically Risc's Colorizer.
Cool protip. Do |n still properly works in latest patches? I remember reading a thread that |n doesn't works anymore like it used to.

The |n still works. Though I'm using the latest version of reforged.

 

[FlameofChange]

The |n still works. Though I'm using the latest version of reforged.

In the editor you can make back returns with crtl+return. However it doesn't work with single line data, names for example.

While I'm at it, some other details which I remember only now :
☼ When the altar works, it cannot be selected
☼ Faith generation kicks in right after the unit appear, was it intentional ?
☼ Angel carry size would be set to 2, since it's a special unique unit
☼ The angel would benefit from a short ranged attack instead of a long ranged melee, this would make it juicer
☼ To make the angel more interesting than an aura bearer & AoE caster
► Increases the martyrdom power if the unit dies nearby the angel (+5 instead of +4 for example)
► Can resurrect allied unit by spending faith (A good way to synergize your faith system !)
► Make her cost faith on top of resources
► The martyrdom has double effect on the angel (+8 instead of +4 on the angel, for example)
► All of this could be nerfed by increasing the cost and adjusting damage/attack speed/HP/Armor, but it could be fine too

 

[Fleck]

I think it was the crash FlameofChange mentioned. If you have a spell book leveling by a upgrade that may be the problem. Change it to do so via a trigger. That was how I fixed a similar crash in a map I made.

While my map do use spellbook leveling, it does through triggers not through upgrades though I will take a look again once in the triggers.

While good it stick to the vinnia style, if you believe something can improve it do so. As for the location of quote, I've had the opposite experience and that how it is in the descriptions of the artifact item in the vanilla game.

If want good examples of this stlye of tooltips look at any of Wa666r's maps and for quotes in tooltips look at Shadow Covenant

Having the quote on the bottom allows the player access to the important information about the unit first. The flavor text dose not effect the gameplay itself. A the very least putting a gap between the quote and the rest of the tooltip to make the two parts the tooltip easer to tell apart.

Unfortunate that I can't play Wa666r's more recent altered melee or Shadow Covenant. Alright you convinced me, I will colorcode the tooltips in future updates and add a space after the quotes. You're also right that the lore of items in vanilla at the bottom.

I originally pasted the wrong link. I changed it to three different variations of the wc2 church. the reason I posted these is because the boxes the church model your using breaks away from rest of the buildings.

Fix the scaling of the 3rd tier town hall as it become too big.

You mean by boxes that the current model doesn't face degrees 225 like the vanilla barracks? Or are you referring to the pathing map of the building? Also I seen those models and I feels that it doesn't really fit the aesthetics.

Sure, I will reduce the scaling in the next update.

The |n still works. Though I'm using the latest version of reforged.

That's good. I was worried that it was broken.

In the editor you can make back returns with crtl+return. However it doesn't work with single line data, names for example.

While I'm at it, some other details which I remember only now :
☼ When the altar works, it cannot be selected
☼ Faith generation kicks in right after the unit appear, was it intentional ?
☼ Angel carry size would be set to 2, since it's a special unique unit
☼ The angel would benefit from a short ranged attack instead of a long ranged melee, this would make it juicer
☼ To make the angel more interesting than an aura bearer & AoE caster
► Increases the martyrdom power if the unit dies nearby the angel (+5 instead of +4 for example)
► Can resurrect allied unit by spending faith (A good way to synergize your faith system !)
► Make her cost faith on top of resources
► The martyrdom has double effect on the angel (+8 instead of +4 on the angel, for example)
► All of this could be nerfed by increasing the cost and adjusting damage/attack speed/HP/Armor, but it could be fine too

I can select the altar? Could you elaborate?
More or less, World Editor features I'm working with is limited though kinda remember that in 1.31 I can make unit ability start on cooldown. I try and see if I can make a workaround regarding the faith generation ability.
Seraphim or Living Saint? Seraphim transported size is 2 while Living Saint is 3.
Increasing the martyrdom power may be a bit difficult. I will have to look at that.
A good idea, I will put on the to do list.
Make the Living Saint costs faith? Eh, maybe not.

 

[FlameofChange]

Seraphim or Living Saint? Seraphim transported size is 2 while Living Saint is 3.

Every unit takes 1 space, heavy artillery (tank, meat wagon, demolisher and glaive launcher) and mountain giant take 2.
So if a unit is a heavy vehicle or a super-heavy unit, it takes 2, else 1.

I can select the altar? Could you elaborate?

Your hero altar model has an issue : it cannot be selected when it uses the work animation.
Start the training of a hero and you see it's difficult to select it without using the selection box.

Increasing the martyrdom power may be a bit difficult. I will have to look at that.

My take would be to break the ability into +1 levels instead of +4, then adjust the triggers to increase multiple levels instead of one by one.

More or less, World Editor features I'm working with is limited though kinda remember that in 1.31 I can make unit ability start on cooldown. I try and see if I can make a workaround regarding the faith generation ability.

The simple trick is to use a hashtable.
When the faith generation triggers, check if the unit the boolean at the faith generation index, if false it is the first time, so you set it to true.
Here's a sample of how it could be done (while synthesizing 4 triggers into one)

• Updating Faith Count Faith
  • Events
    • Unit - A unit Starts the effect of an ability
  • Conditions
  • Actions
    • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
      • If - Conditions
        • Or - Any (Conditions) are true
          • Conditions
            • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Holy Icon Exhume Corpses)
            • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Sisters Exhume Corpses)
            • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Imagifer Exhume Corpses)
            • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Living Saint Exhume Corpses)
      • Then - Actions
        • Set VariableSet TempCasterUnit = (Casting unit)
        • Custom script: set udg_k=udg_TempCasterUnit
        • Custom script: set udg_y='A02F'
        • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
          • If - Conditions
            • (Load y of (Key k.) from yourHash.) Equal to True
          • Then - Actions
            • Set VariableSet TempOwner = (Owner of TempCasterUnit)
            • Set VariableSet TempInteger = (Player number of TempOwner)
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • Or - Any (Conditions) are true
                  • Conditions
                    • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Imagifer Exhume Corpses)
                    • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Holy Icon Exhume Corpses)
              • Then - Actions
                • Set VariableSet x = 2
              • Else - Actions
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Sisters Exhume Corpses)
              • Then - Actions
                • Set VariableSet x = 1
              • Else - Actions
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Living Saint Exhume Corpses)
              • Then - Actions
                • Set VariableSet x = 20
              • Else - Actions
            • Set VariableSet TempFaithKills[TempInteger] = (TempFaithKills[TempInteger] + x)
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • TempFaithKills[TempInteger] Greater than 200
              • Then - Actions
                • Set VariableSet TempFaithKills[TempInteger] = 200
              • Else - Actions
            • Leaderboard - Change the value for TempOwner in TempLeaderboard[TempInteger] to TempFaithKills[TempInteger]
            • Leaderboard - Sort TempLeaderboard[TempInteger] by Value in Descending order
          • Else - Actions
            • Hashtable - Save True as y of (Key k.) in yourHash.
      • Else - Actions

Another trick is to use very short variable names to make the triggers less verbose, also when you call again and again the same value you can put it in a variable.
Don't forget to use the right hashtable. x and y are integers, k is a handle. I used the angel faith generation ability id as an index but you can use whatever you want, as long as it is consistent within your triggers.

 

[Fleck]

Every unit takes 1 space, heavy artillery (tank, meat wagon, demolisher and glaive launcher) and mountain giant take 2.
So if a unit is a heavy vehicle or a super-heavy unit, it takes 2, else 1.

I see. Okay, I will reduce Seraphim and Living Saint size to 1 and 2 in next update.

Your hero altar model has an issue : it cannot be selected when it uses the work animation.
Start the training of a hero and you see it's difficult to select it without using the selection box.

I can still the select the altar easily even while training/revivng heroes but I will add a collision box with magos editor in the next update to ensure that the altar is easily selected.

My take would be to break the ability into +1 levels instead of +4, then adjust the triggers to increase multiple levels instead of one by one.

There a chance the map slows down if I use too many levels in abilities so if possible I would like to refrain from that.

The simple trick is to use a hashtable.
When the faith generation triggers, check if the unit the boolean at the faith generation index, if false it is the first time, so you set it to true.
Here's a sample of how it could be done (while synthesizing 4 triggers into one)

• Updating Faith Count Faith
  • Events
    • Unit - A unit Starts the effect of an ability
  • Conditions
  • Actions
    • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
      • If - Conditions
        • Or - Any (Conditions) are true
          • Conditions
            • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Holy Icon Exhume Corpses)
            • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Sisters Exhume Corpses)
            • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Imagifer Exhume Corpses)
            • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Living Saint Exhume Corpses)
      • Then - Actions
        • Set VariableSet TempCasterUnit = (Casting unit)
        • Custom script: set udg_k=udg_TempCasterUnit
        • Custom script: set udg_y='A02F'
        • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
          • If - Conditions
            • (Load y of (Key k.) from yourHash.) Equal to True
          • Then - Actions
            • Set VariableSet TempOwner = (Owner of TempCasterUnit)
            • Set VariableSet TempInteger = (Player number of TempOwner)
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • Or - Any (Conditions) are true
                  • Conditions
                    • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Imagifer Exhume Corpses)
                    • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Holy Icon Exhume Corpses)
              • Then - Actions
                • Set VariableSet x = 2
              • Else - Actions
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Sisters Exhume Corpses)
              • Then - Actions
                • Set VariableSet x = 1
              • Else - Actions
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • (Ability being cast) Equal to Faith Generation (Living Saint Exhume Corpses)
              • Then - Actions
                • Set VariableSet x = 20
              • Else - Actions
            • Set VariableSet TempFaithKills[TempInteger] = (TempFaithKills[TempInteger] + 2)
            • If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
              • If - Conditions
                • TempFaithKills[TempInteger] Greater than 200
              • Then - Actions
                • Set VariableSet TempFaithKills[TempInteger] = 200
              • Else - Actions
            • Leaderboard - Change the value for TempOwner in TempLeaderboard[TempInteger] to TempFaithKills[TempInteger]
            • Leaderboard - Sort TempLeaderboard[TempInteger] by Value in Descending order
          • Else - Actions
            • Hashtable - Save True as y of (Key k.) in yourHash.
      • Else - Actions

Another trick is to use very short variable names to make the triggers less verbose, also when you call again and again the same value you can put it in a variable.
Don't forget to use the right hashtable. x and y are integers, k is a handle. I used the angel faith generation ability id as an index but you can use whatever you want, as long as it is consistent within your triggers.

Ah, hashtables my bane. Thanks for the protip but honestly I find it hard to wrap my brain around that and Bribe's Unit Indexer. I'm fairly sure I can make workaround way faster instead.

 

[CollectorofStoriesUntold]

You mean by boxes that the current model doesn't face degrees 225 like the vanilla barracks? Or are you referring to the pathing map of the building? Also I seen those models and I feels that it doesn't really fit the aesthetics.

It was the angle as well as the model. The different angle is jarring, and the model is essentially a box, contrasting with the more detailed structures. However, I can see what you mean; lowering the scale by 0.04 or 0.05 may make a difference.

 

[FlameofChange]

There a chance the map slows down if I use too many levels in abilities so if possible I would like to refrain from that.

It is only one ability, and it's not a big deal.
If you had hundreds of abilities with hundreds of levels each, yeah it will only hurt the map loading time, but that's all.

Ah, hashtables my bane. Thanks for the protip but honestly I find it hard to wrap my brain around that and Bribe's Unit Indexer. I'm fairly sure I can make workaround way faster instead.

When you figured out how it works (like a 2D array) and how to prevent leaks it is very useful.
Not as fast nor elegant as custom table libraries, but it does the work fine in your case.

 

[biridius]

This map inspired me to make a Word Bearers custom race. Because they are also church people but evil.
Is it ok if I copy some of the things from your map like the stats on the plane or the systems?

 

[CollectorofStoriesUntold]

40k Items

www.hiveworkshop.com

 

[Fleck]

This map inspired me to make a Word Bearers custom race. Because they are also church people but evil.
Is it ok if I copy some of the things from your map like the stats on the plane or the systems?
View attachment 428510

Sure!

 

[CollectorofStoriesUntold]

Here's a playlist of the sister unit sounds:

Each video has a Dropbox link with the voice lines. You can replace base-game unit sounds via the sound editor. I recommend replacing the naga or humanoid creeps sounds.

 

[Fleck]

Here's a playlist of the sister unit sounds:

Each video has a Dropbox link with the voice lines. You can replace base-game unit sounds via the sound editor. I recommend replacing the naga or humanoid creeps sounds.

Good suggestion, I will put it on the to do list.

 

[FlameofChange]

2.0 game here. Globally this feels better & more balanced. Right now it's just a matter of polishing and putting more welcomed details.

General
☼ There's still the floating interface element at the bottom-right quarter of the screen
☼ Having a lot of mechs with no armored bonus is always less effective than a bio one since you can stack a lot of organic buffs & heals. This makes transition into mech a bit to harsh. It is indeed intentional but mechs tends to be a bit too expensive for what they can benefit from abilities.
☼ Generators could be a tad too cheap, due to their ability. +5 or +10 cost won't be a problem.
☼ Faith generation could benefit from more visual feedback, for example when the unit generates it
☼ The canoness having 2 damage dealing abilities with no extra for the second has some overlapping roles, you may give an extra blinding effect to the Purifying Light (or anything you could think of).
☼ The air fighter can still move when ensnared.
☼ The celestian could benefit from an increased range, so she can better select the right targets while being behind the tiddied meat shields. 500-550 would be good, not too much too.

Faith
The system isn't at fault here, but the abilities from the main building needs some balance :
► Instant resources gain is very strong, +500 is 50s of default gathering speed at no upkeep, so it becomes very dependable when you have high upkeep.
► Resurrection isn't canceled/refund when there's no available target
► Blazing Ire hero damage boost is very low, since you get only 3 heroes, even at team game. Heroes themselves doesn't provide a lot of DPS even at level 10.
► You may use the faith indicator to display the current active buffs & their remaining time, so you can track them anytime

☼ My suggestions :
► Resource requisition gives 10 and 4 per second, and takes in account the upkeep for the gold
> You could make it a toggled ability which generates resources as long as you have faith, it's up to you
► Blazing Ire damage bonus increased from 10 to 20%, also increases spell damage (synergy !), can also affect allied heroes (synergy² !)
► Resurrection (you may need to recode it manually, nothing complicated and I think you leveled up since then thehehe)
> Number of targets increased from 1 to infinite
> Can resurrect up to 10 food of troops
> Cost changed from 20 to 10 faith per resurrected food cost
> Reload time increased from 20 to 60
The resurrection have been adjusted to be more consistent, it also saves a bit of micro

Mechs
Like I said earlier, mechanical units may be good on paper but you can't have a constant flow of buffs & heal to help them stay in the battlefield, so they become underwhelming compared to your foot gals. This is how I would balance things out

☼ Immolator cost decreased from 210 80 4 to 210 40 4
Mechanical units have advantages from being immune to a lot of abilities, but your only source of repair are your peons. The lower lumber cost will free out more resources for upgrades and make transition easier.

☼ Exorcist cost decreased from 245 80 4 44s to 245 50 4 40s
☼ Exorcist base damage increased from 17 to 27
☼ Exorcist level increased from 2 to 3
Same remark for the immolator, with the addition of a too low dps for its price

Ranks updated

Spoiler

☼ Aesthetics A to A+
You have space to bring more juice in animations & effects, so your faction would feel more alive & more epic !
Custom voice lines are good additions. You're not far from S !

☼ Feel & juice S-
Your recent updates improved content and technical issues, so same remark for the aesthetics. However this is at least better than before.

☼ Strategy and tactic B+ to A+
The strategical identity has taken shape. The gameplay is quite straightforward but the details give them interesting quirks after a couple more balance changes.

☼ Balance C to B+
The risk/reward potential of the faction is much better, there's also far less gimmicky elements amid broken one-button win feature.
Your gals are frail but can field a lot of firepower when correctly supported & controlled, this gives a much more interesting strategical investment from a Warcraft 3 perspective !

☼ Content B+
Not having a 4th hero and a custom orb is gatekeeping you from reaching A, else you would reach S+ no sweat.

☼ Handling & ergonomics B-
The grenades are again still a bit of a concern. The faction may have too much micromanagement, some abilities would benefit from altered effects so you have to frenetically click less everywhere in the chaos of battle.

☼ Triggers, code, overall polishing B to B+
Nothing new to be pointed out. Beware of one line actions !
You get some points by reworking few details here and there in the object editor.

☼ Overall tier C+ to A
The faction has now a solid place with space of improvements.

☼ Personal taste B to A
Burning heretics never have been so fun.
More seriously, I'm not very convinced by some gimmick elements of your faction but I'm glad it has now a good shape to play with.

I think I said everything about this faction after this post. This is a solid base from which you can go where you want ; plus I would spare you the endless balance min/max kek

 

[biridius]

The floating UI thing is because of the inventory cover iirc.

 

[Fleck]

Generators could be a tad too cheap, due to their ability. +5 or +10 cost won't be a problem.
Faith generation could benefit from more visual feedback, for example when the unit generates it

Noted. I will check the special effects section for better visual feedback.

The canoness having 2 damage dealing abilities with no extra for the second has some overlapping roles, you may give an extra blinding effect to the Purifying Light (or anything you could think of).

Sure, I will put on my thinking cap.

The air fighter can still move when ensnared.

Hm, yeah. I'm not sure how to fix that... I will put it on my to do list.

The celestian could benefit from an increased range, so she can better select the right targets while being behind the tiddied meat shields. 500-550 would be good, not too much too.
► You may use the faith indicator to display the current active buffs & their remaining time, so you can track them anytime

Yea, will rebalance celestian.
Good idea, I will see what can I do.

► Instant resources gain is very strong, +500 is 50s of default gathering speed at no upkeep, so it becomes very dependable when you have high upkeep.
► Resource requisition gives 10 and 4 per second, and takes in account the upkeep for the gold
You could make it a toggled ability which generates resources as long as you have faith, it's up to you

Nice suggestions, I will definitely rebalance the resource requisition in the next update.

► Resurrection isn't canceled/refund when there's no available target

Ok, noted. Will fix in the next version.

► Blazing Ire hero damage boost is very low, since you get only 3 heroes, even at team game. Heroes themselves doesn't provide a lot of DPS even at level 10.
► Blazing Ire damage bonus increased from 10 to 20%, also increases spell damage (synergy !), can also affect allied heroes (synergy² !)

Oh, I was being conservative with the bonus damage since I thought it's might be OP. I'm not sure about increasing spell damage though.

► Resurrection (you may need to recode it manually, nothing complicated and I think you leveled up since then thehehe)

That's high praise, thank you. Implementing it seems difficult and may take a while...

Mechs

Noted, will rebalance in the next version.

Not having a 4th hero and a custom orb is gatekeeping you from reaching A, else you would reach S+ no sweat.

Yea, I recently had a eureka moment so the fourth hero will be in the next update. Maybe the orb too!

Handling & ergonomics B-

Yea, I agree. I will take a look again and see if there are any possible improvements.

I think I said everything about this faction after this post. This is a solid base from which you can go where you want ; plus I would spare you the endless balance min/max kek

I'm actually pleasantly surprised that my map received a review so soon after updating

There's still the floating interface element at the bottom-right quarter of the screen

The floating UI thing is because of the inventory cover iirc.

Dunno what's this floating UI thing you two mentioned but I imported the file biridius posted in the next update so hopefully that is solved.

 

[biridius]

Dunno what's this floating UI thing you two mentioned but I imported the file biridius posted in the next update so hopefully that is solved.

The file is supposed to go to "UI\Console\Human\HumanUITile-InventoryCover.blp".

 

[cleavinghammer]

Very good map overall, though my brain keeps wondering "why doesn't X unit have Y ability like in Soulstorm".

Not sure about the one-use-only abilities, seems a bit micro-heavy.

Faith counter should update faster, at first when I used Faith abilities I thought the Faith counter had no cap and it stopped counting after 200.

 

[Fleck]

Very good map overall, though my brain keeps wondering "why doesn't X unit have Y ability like in Soulstorm".

Not sure about the one-use-only abilities, seems a bit micro-heavy.

Faith counter should update faster, at first when I used Faith abilities I thought the Faith counter had no cap and it stopped counting after 200.

Well translating a race from soulstorm to warcraft will always have differences.

Yea, the one use only abilities was primarily for balance reasons and reduce grenade spam.

? Updating the Faith counter is already fast. It updates any time you kill a hostile unit, your units generate faith or use sacred rites. The faith cap was to encourage players to use sacred rite abilities and prevent faith points hoarding. If I remember correctly, soulstorm also have a faith cap. Also any new race mechanics in my maps are properly documented at Quests (F9).

 

[cleavinghammer]

As in, I used both requisitions, looked at the counter and it was still at 200 for a good 15 seconds until it went down to what it was supposed to be.


Using the Shield of Faith ability appears to reduce allied non-Hero units to 0 mana and prevents their mana regeneration while the buff is active.

 

[Fleck]

As in, I used both requisitions, looked at the counter and it was still at 200 for a good 15 seconds until it went down to what it was supposed to be.


Using the Shield of Faith ability appears to reduce allied non-Hero units to 0 mana and prevents their mana regeneration while the buff is active.

Strange, I am unable to replicate the bugs. I quick tested my map in 1.27 and 1.31 and it does update the faith counter right away and does not reduce mana to 0 and prevent mana regeneration.

Might be a patch difference error if you are using lower or higher patches than I do.
Or might be game cache issue if you play a different map then play my map. The solution to this exiting and opening the game again.