Siegecraft

[Mr.Cheese]

Congratulation, the patch...is great, i could test the map now Didn't find any bugs, but i have 2 suggestion. First: its kind of strange that you can recover at the enemy's fountain, make it only for the allies of the fountain. Second: could you make a new command for the flags? The one that orders units to attack the middle fort, its not necessary, but its would be good. Anyway, +rep for this amount of lag reduction.

Fountain will be fixed. The flag command is more complicated. By being able to attack the fort, you will be able to tell the army to go backwards or you could keep them ping ponging from the fort to a base. Also, if you die after giving the command, would units just keep going to the fort and clogging it up?

The way how the fort works is that, aside from adding cannons, it attracts any enemy that gets near it (which is why the north and south spawns are usually unaffected). So if you want to attack the fort, just use 'Attack Center'. All the units will either go through the fort or get near it enough for the trigger to tell them to attack.

I'm curious about the difference between your lag experience with 1.0 and 1.1. How much of it has improved for you? It is hard for me to tell.

1.2 will have further lag reduction. But I am rapidly running out of maneuvers to limit lag.

I think even now in 1.1 the map is running pretty well. Unfortunately, since the first reaction was 'zOMG lag!' to the map, this map will unfortunately forever be known to be 'laggy' even if the lag doesn't exist. So imprisoning is the first impression!

 

[Mr.Cheese]

I want anyone who downloads Siegecraft to feel free in posting their impressions, bugs, and/or desires. Do not let my walls of text deter you. The audience is always, always, always right. Anything said here will almost assuredly work its way into the next patch. Your experience is the only thing that matters.

To those who want to see this type of 'vast battlefield with heroes' concept continue in Starcraft 2, I have some questions for you. (Consider this a poll!)

poll

1) Since Starcraft 2 already exists in the space age, do you feel it is necessary to have an 'Ages' concept which would start the game with swords and shields and upgrade them to Starcraft 2 units? Or would you want to try something different?

2) Would it matter if the 'hall of heroes' type selection was taken away in place of a more 'tavern' like system?

3) Do you wish to have more defensive options? Similar to the shop in the fort, imagine a shop at one of the spawns where you could 'purchase' defenses.

4) The heroes in Siegecraft are still trying to figure themselves out. In DOTA type maps, nukers and stunners were found to be 'right' in that type of map with passive abilities and summons being taken out. However, in Siegecraft I find the opposite is true that passive and summons seem very effective since they are supplementing an army (rather than being a hero duel). One experience I had was playing Siegecraft with the blademaster, who is considered imbalanced as too strong in default Warcraft 3, and I didn't find him too effective a hero. But then I used the Human Paladin and laughed as I hit guys with my little hammer. At first, he seemed very weak. But since all his abilities are strengthening the surrounding army, he became very powerful at a later level (and items gave him strong attack power). So my question is what are the new heroes you feel work well for this map and which ones do not? Which heroes are the ones you like to play?

5) What are the strongest elements of this map that you like that you would not be happy if they were taken out? The fort? The palaces you can walk in? The different races? The different ages?

 

[mouseman89]

1) i like how it starts with medieval then goes to space age, then theres more diversity rather than footman... knight... priest... catapult...

2) doesnt matter to me...

3) there probably should be at least 1 or 2 more defensive options...

4) welll i was thinking, that as the ages progressed, your hero got stronger (like blademaster got a laser sword etc)that increased damage health or attributes (space marine gets agility implant or whatever)

5) i like all of them.

 

[Koloricsi]

Well, about my lag, it was like creeps are battling, only me and and other hero was there, i cast that gravity like spell with time mage, and it lagged for like 8-10 sec, now, its like 1-3 sec

 

[EMPerror]

looks extremely promising. Will look it up in a few seconds ( i really hope it becomes famous, i'm tired of AoS too)

Edit : Here's a review :

Pros :
- Pretty epic
- Seems pretty balanced at first sight
- The ages system is new and innovative (in warcraft scenarios anyway)
- Epic terrain

Cons :
- Extremely confusing
- Unit control sux
- Some units also suck while some are imba
- Boring items
- Waaaay too many imported stuff. The game was rather laggy and has a big filesize.


Justification : Well, as the description says, rather epic fights occured but only after magic age. Heroes are rather well designed and balanced. I really liked the age system, though i have to say i expected it to be... uh... i don't know, how to say it. More noticeable. When it said that we entered magic age i expected to see a lot of new crap around casting stuff and all. But all i saw were essentially the same models and names with the prefix "magic" added. Same for chaos age. The terrain is also worth mentioning, as it is probably one of the most epic terrains i have seen.

Now, although it has that epic feel, this map is lacking a LOT of stuff. First of all it's confusing - You pick a hero and you have no idea where in hell are you. I'm talking about the first time you play the game, the round which decides if you think the game is fun and worth playing. That part is incredibly confusing.
Secondly, the unit control. It sux. Big time. I picked up the flag, and ordered the units to attack north. Sure enough, all units went top, BUT, ALL units went there. Nothing left to defend. So i resumed the units' actions, but for some reason, units still tend to go where you last ordered them. Anyway, i told them again, to go top and we won the lane.
However, then i ordered them to go down. They destroyed everything except the gateway thingie. There were about 5 units, so i decided i'd order everyone to go center and push while i'm destroying the gateway. Immediately, all the units just turned around, and didn't even finish the gateway, leaving me alone. Which brings me to my next point.

I was left there fighting the gateway, and left it on 300hp. Then 3 units came out, and they permabashed me to death. 3 units. ONLY 3 units. I don't remember what they were, but a goddamn hero is supposed to be stronger than 3 measly units.

So, when i ressurected, i bought some items and charged there to finish it off. By the time i got there, the gateway had regened to full hp....


And being able to enter the palace and control your units from there is no substitute for this. It means you are losing on exp and gold and it's just that you aren't there. If somehow a clash occurred, the guys who didn't have a guy in the palace would be winning. And getting stronger. In the end, they could just send their units to push 1 lane, 1~2 guys can defend everything else, and the other 3~4 people would just pwn the other team. And even though the control of units would grant some advantage, it just doesn't seem to be worth it.

Now, about items... extremely messy. I mean, extremely messy. I went to that place with 4 shops and left as soon as i could (seeing as a priest blocked my way out by trying to heal me). All were normal wc3 items and in no specific order. There are some unique stuff, but definitely not as unique as items can be. There's practically nothing real good to spend your money on (or maybe there was, but i couldn't find it)


And of course, the imported stuff. My most important view of a map. I hate maps with huge quantities of imported units and everything you could squeeze in. Not only do models add a lot of size to the map file, they show uncreativity. They show that whoever made the map could not think of unique material or create it himself (maybe you did create the models yourself? If you did then disregard this last part), and he has to resort to using stuff other people think off. Also, as already said, i noticed there are a lot of models that were already used and just had their names changed. So, even if there are much other flaws around, this is the main part which is going to cause your map not to get a 5/5 from me.



So, all in all, this is another AoS map only with a different setup and more focus on pushing with massive armies that actually do something rather than auto attack. If i could, i'd rate it 3.5/5, but i'll still rate it 4/5 since it does have that epic feel. Though it's not that much expressed.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Haven't tried the new version yet, but I just wanted to clarify my earlier comment about the AI: the hero AI works just fine, it's the units (while in king mode) I'm talking about. For example, I was trying to get a group of Flame Strike Hippogryph Riders to attack the base from the south, but they kept being ordered to go to a different point. Similarly, a bunch of Mountain Giants ordered to guard the fort kept trying to turn around and head back to their own base. Another one was with a Forest Fairy I told to cast Blizzard, which she did for maybe two seconds before the computer ordered her to Chain Lightning an enemy, interrupting the channelling.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Okay, have tried it now. Found a few more, but the improvements are there.

* On the Hallaer's entrance, the large southern walls (on both sides of the lava) are walkable. This isn't a bad thing in itself, as it allows for more units to participate in the fight, but it should have ramps for access.
** Also, the lava itself is walkable, making it less of a defend-the-bridge than it's set up to be.
* Units that have been summoned/ressurected/reincarnated only attack if enemies are present, otherwise they just sit there.
* Heroes always seem to give the same bounty (46 gold) no matter the level.
* Burrowstrike isn't interrupted by stunning (Crypt Lord takes damage, but continues moving forward to target). Perhaps he could be made invincible for the duration, so as to avoid wasting a spell?
* The Nature Archer:
** Retribution Aura says the effects last 30 seconds, rather than being permanent.
** How much damage the Hurricane Arrow does per unit is not stated.
* Jasso still doesn't talk when dead (Laran does though, quite funny).
* I liked the credits, nice way to show off terrain when you concentrate more on the fighting throughout the game.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Emperror,

Your 'review' is very funny but not in the way you intended. You didn't so much review the map as you applied the 'AOS Standard' onto the map and are shocked that this map does not match the 'AOS Standard'. You keep referring to 'lanes' of which there are no lanes in Siegecraft. You wonder why your hero got slaughtered to Chaos Knights (footmen from the third Era) and declare it 'imbalanced' because that is not how things are done on typical AOS maps. You saw four shops (and you somehow missed the other five, three of which are in the palace) and wondered where are all the items since, according to the 'AOS Standard', there has to be tons of items.

Siegecraft is intentionally veering away from any such mythical 'AOS Standard' and going its own path. All the things you thought were not 'right' were intended and are working properly. For example, it was correct for your hero to be mauled by Chaos Knights because heroes, in this map, are not supposed to be powerhouses that dominate spawns. To the contrary, heroes are supposed to supplement the spawns. If a hero tries to attack an area all alone, you will have a dead hero fast. The Ages upgrade the units so they remain dangerous to the heroes (but the player can turn off the Ages so they can lord over the spawns if they so choose). There are new items designed for this map in shops you didn't see (and they are very useful). You can even buy towers and build them almost anywhere.

What I find so interesting is that there is some sort of 'AOS standard' out there (think DOTA) where some people cannot perceive values independent from 'AOS Standard'. As an example, this map is more about the battlefield and the armies, not about the heroes and their items. And it was intended that way.

I have no desire to make a DOTA clone or even a DOTA "killer". Here is why:

I was a beta tester for Aion of Strife made by Eul. Not one of the sequels. I'm talking about the original Starcraft version. I'm one of the very old RTS mod makers. I still have the papers that Westwood's lawyers sent me to 'cease and desist' from the original Command and Conquer (Westwood hated modders). Anyway, then, as now, I didn't really like the direction Aion was going because it was more tactical around one hero and going away from the 'big battlefield' that was the RTS. What I do appreciate about the AoS is its simplicity of only having one hero.

Siegecraft is not about 'evolving' the AOS. Siegecraft is about 'rejecting' the AOS. It is intended to go a very different direction. This direction is more focused on the armies and their composition, on the battlefield, on epic battles, and players' heroes are only a minor part of that battle. You can help guide and shape the flow of the battles, but you cannot lord over it. Now, whether or not this direction is fun or not is up for the player to decide. But with all the million DOTA clones out there, I have no desire to make another one. And I don't think anyone has a desire to play them either.

But I liked your review. "What! I cannot solo a barracks? How are these Chaos Knights killing my lone hero? OMG imbalance!" You must have stopped there or else I would have heard complaining about the powerful starships shooting laser beams from the Age of Ascendency!

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Okay, have tried it now. Found a few more, but the improvements are there.

* On the Hallaer's entrance, the large southern walls (on both sides of the lava) are walkable. This isn't a bad thing in itself, as it allows for more units to participate in the fight, but it should have ramps for access.

There used to be light bridges that connected the areas of the cannons to the areas across the lava (where the stairs are). I took them out because the light bridges looked so awful. I couldn't find an adequate bridge.

If I had more time, I intended to create a 'lightning bridge' using special effects. It would have looked awesome and been fun to 'zap' across.

** Also, the lava itself is walkable, making it less of a defend-the-bridge than it's set up to be.

The lava isn't walkable. There are no pathing errors. The problem is due to Nature Archer's Hurricane Arrow (and probably Earth Wave) that, for some bizarre reason, moves the pathing blockers. Since Hurricane Arrow is a very complicated spell trigger wise, it has been difficult for me to solve this (it isn't my spell).

You might ask, "Why did you include this spell in the first place then?" The early Betas used a very different terrain that used Blizzard cliffs and had no pathing blockers. Hurricane Arrow and the Nature Archer was one of the earlier heroes and spells. When I transferred everything over to the new map with new terrain, I never realized that the spell could alter the pathing blockers.

* Units that have been summoned/ressurected/reincarnated only attack if enemies are present, otherwise they just sit there.

Only from the armies. The AI heroes' summoned units will go where the AI hero is.

With some time, this issue probably could be fixed. It is complicated because there are many 'mages' and many different areas they are going. Having the summons follow the mage doesn't work (tried it). A solution would require at least ten triggers (due to the ten different locations the armies go to). A solution is possible but is going to take a while to make.

Since the SC 2 editor is coming out today, bam, I'm out of time.

* Heroes always seem to give the same bounty (46 gold) no matter the level.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will make it give something better.

* Burrowstrike isn't interrupted by stunning (Crypt Lord takes damage, but continues moving forward to target). Perhaps he could be made invincible for the duration, so as to avoid wasting a spell?

Let me guess, you tried a stun arrow on the Crypt Lord when he was burrowstriking? =)

* The Nature Archer:
** Retribution Aura says the effects last 30 seconds, rather than being permanent.

Will be fixed in 1.2.

** How much damage the Hurricane Arrow does per unit is not stated.

It is a very strange trigger.

* Jasso still doesn't talk when dead (Laran does though, quite funny).
* I liked the credits, nice way to show off terrain when you concentrate more on the fighting throughout the game.

I did fix something recently with Jasso's text so it should be working in 1.2.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

1) i like how it starts with medieval then goes to space age, then theres more diversity rather than footman... knight... priest... catapult...

2) doesnt matter to me...

3) there probably should be at least 1 or 2 more defensive options...

4) welll i was thinking, that as the ages progressed, your hero got stronger (like blademaster got a laser sword etc)that increased damage health or attributes (space marine gets agility implant or whatever)

5) i like all of them.

This map isn't done, so the analogy I like to use is that "I had to pull it out of the oven before it was fully cooked to see whether people liked the recipe." Not many people are going to care about War 3 modding once the Galaxy Editor is out.

Here is where, judging from reactions, I thought Siegecraft worked:

-Big Battlefield worked...
-Diversified terrain worked...
-Ages concept worked...
-Mix of units worked to make interesting battles... (there are twelve different units that spawn each age)

Now that I think about it, the 'Ages' concept is really the 'Tiers' that is in regular RTS such as 'Tier 1' and 'Tier 2' except, perhaps, in a more elaborate way.

I've been thinking how to do Siegecraft for Starcraft 2. One thing about this map is that it originally had many more units spawning (making an even MORE epic battlefield). But, alas, Warcraft 3 cannot handle that many units so I kept lowering and lowering and lowering the units.

With SC 2, I'll have to do many 'engine tests' to see what is possible with this new engine. One of the obvious things is to have many more units on the battlefield.

Since everyone and their dog are going to race to make DOTA clones, I want to go a direction that people aren't taking. So the focus will likely be on the battlefield and the armies. For example, in the single player preview, you saw the lava rise and fall. Wouldn't it be cool if the battlefield could change like that? What other changes could occur on the battlefield?

It would also be neat to be able to upgrade your defenses and have 'unique' defenses (i.e. something that isn't just a tower).

Everyone seems to like the Ages concept. The problem is that there are no custom models for SC 2 so you are going to be stuck with zealots playing the role of swordsman for a while. There is a concept I've been talking to people that they find far more exciting and interesting than the Ages (but Ages will still be included). Need to test it before I talk about it.

Since Siegecraft is an epic sized map and very large, it is going to be a while before I can invite you guys for the alpha. Aside from learning the new engine, the editor being 'beta' is worrisome to start a project of magnitude.

If you liked 'Starship Troopers' for Starcraft, you will really enjoy the SC 2 map I'll make first before starting the colossal project that is Siegecraft.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

1.2 patch is up.

This map may still be updated for smaller issues, but, otherwise, Siegecraft's new home will be in SC 2.

 

[HD888]

i like the screen shots

 

[cleavinghammer]

Well, I guess there's no point in adding more found bugs, but I certainly hope the SC2 version will be as good as this one.

And yes, it was a stun arrow.

 

[EMPerror]

Emperror,

Your 'review' is very funny but not in the way you intended. You didn't so much review the map as you applied the 'AOS Standard' onto the map and are shocked that this map does not match the 'AOS Standard'. You keep referring to 'lanes' of which there are no lanes in Siegecraft...

i read the entire post but it's too big to quote


Ok, i'm still used to AoS, so i refered to each point of the base as a lane (north, south, center etc).
Now i am comparing it to an AoS because it's rather similar. 5 or so places where units appear, 5 or so places that units need to destroy + a main base.

Anyway, yeah, i did misunderstand the balance in the map. But it's still kind of weird to get mauled by 3 units. Well, next time i will make sure to get more of a supportive hero.

However, my point for controlling units still stands. An idea that might fix this is making a flag for each control point of the map. Say, a "North" flag, a
"South" flag etc. and each flag would control the units from their respective point. A hero can carry multiple flags and control all armies by himself and still be around getting exp and possibly gold.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Also, as an idea for the next incarnation, I think stealing the enemy's flag should allow you to give commands to the enemy army, as this will provide extra incentive for getting it back, not to mention the more strategic aspects (a few defender-heroes holding back a massive tide of units while nukers sneak in unopposed except by heroes and towers, hero-on-hero duels unfettered by pesky units getting in the way...)

 

[Gorthag]

Exellent map! Only some slight lag that didn't even bother me (Core 2 quad, 6gb RAM)

 

[Spank_my_kodo]

The map is indeed promising. Only thing that kills it is the horrible lag . I run a Quad-core/5gb RAM computer, and the lag is still noticeable . I can't even imagine when you play that game with a full house. And this goes to the people saying "not the maps fault, get a new comp". Okay..most people on Battle.net do NOT have an excellent computer to run this map. Most people just have a moderate computer to play most of the games hosted on Battle.net (Games that doesn't require to have a high tech computer to play with of course, like DotA, LoaP, TDs, RPGs, etc). And to be quite honest. I don't think people are willing to waste money upgrading their computer, or buying a new one just to be able play one single map. So really, when you host this online, you might as well be waiting there for a couple days to attract players, because you're not going to get people with fantastic computers. I can assure you, you will have people complaining about lag, and leaving the game. Not every person in the game lobby will have the computer suitable for it (unless you get real lucky, and get a full house with people using good computers). So I think the best solution for this is to either try to to fix the lag somehow, or maybe try removing some triggers. Take this suggestion if you'd like, I'm just giving my opinion. Besides that, the game is extraordinary, terrain, triggers, skins. heroes, and spells. I'll rate it a [4/5] for all those great components .

 

[Deleted member 177737]

First off, it was quite fun/entertaining on single player. There was a little bit of lagg (was playing wow & wc3 at the same time) but other than that it was a good map. Gonna try it against my friend in a few days.

poll

1) Since Starcraft 2 already exists in the space age, do you feel it is necessary to have an 'Ages' concept which would start the game with swords and shields and upgrade them to Starcraft 2 units? Or would you want to try something different?

2) Would it matter if the 'hall of heroes' type selection was taken away in place of a more 'tavern' like system?

3) Do you wish to have more defensive options? Similar to the shop in the fort, imagine a shop at one of the spawns where you could 'purchase' defenses.

4) The heroes in Siegecraft are still trying to figure themselves out. In DOTA type maps, nukers and stunners were found to be 'right' in that type of map with passive abilities and summons being taken out. However, in Siegecraft I find the opposite is true that passive and summons seem very effective since they are supplementing an army (rather than being a hero duel). One experience I had was playing Siegecraft with the blademaster, who is considered imbalanced as too strong in default Warcraft 3, and I didn't find him too effective a hero. But then I used the Human Paladin and laughed as I hit guys with my little hammer. At first, he seemed very weak. But since all his abilities are strengthening the surrounding army, he became very powerful at a later level (and items gave him strong attack power). So my question is what are the new heroes you feel work well for this map and which ones do not? Which heroes are the ones you like to play?

5) What are the strongest elements of this map that you like that you would not be happy if they were taken out? The fort? The palaces you can walk in? The different races? The different ages?

1) Try going from the pre-historic (cave man) age to the space age (starcraft). It would be a challenge, but it would also add length and strategy to the game play.
2) The hall of hero's is a good idea, but if you wanted to expand the map a little bit you should switch to a tavern system. If not then keep the hall.
3)Defiantly.
4) ---Suggestion unknown atm---
5) I probably wouldn't like the places that you can walk into to be taken out. Mainly because I think it adds to the realism of the battle.

 

[mouseman89]

imo you should keep working on it, what if someone makes a wc3 to sc2 map converter ?

 

[Erader]

Fun at the begining but gets really boring after 25 minutes.
3/5.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Work on Siegecraft has begun for Starcraft 2. Already, much of the ‘spawning systems’ are working from the Galaxy Editor. I’ll report progress on the new version in this thread, let’s call it “Alpha” to differentiate it from its Warcraft 3 sibling.

You want the lag to be gone? Well, its gone! I’ve filled up the map with units and no lag whatsoever, not even a trace of it. Warcraft 3 was never designed for many units (hence the ‘upkeep’ and focus on micro based gameplay). But Starcraft 2 can and the result is very fast paced combat. While I haven’t implemented the following features yet, they are very much doable and will be done:

You want more commands with the flag? Well, you’re going to get it. While you can still order the entire army to attack an area, you will now easily be able to tell one barracks to attack another area and do so in different ways.

You want more fleshed out heroes? The Warcraft 3 hero system is going to be abolished. In its place will be a skill tree system similar that you have seen in Diablo or World of Warcraft. This will allow you to have greater replayability with heroes. There will be an attribute system as found in many RPGs. It will be fully fleshed out.

You want a better interface? Then you will like the customized GUI with buttons on the screen.

And there will be much more for the Alpha (which I am keeping quiet about because I am not as sure as they can be implemented).

Someone said above about whether the Starcraft 2 incarnation can be as good as the Warcraft 3 one. It will not be as good. It will be better. Much better. The Warcraft 3 map is going to seem like some strange prototype once it is compared to its Starcraft 2 incarnation.

I’ll list progress reports on here on this thread (so keep putting out any ideas and/or comments). Screenshots will be put up too. It may be possible to get the Alpha out within weeks, but please do not hold me to that! I expect some Jack-In-The-Box surprises to emerge from the Galaxy Editor.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

imo you should keep working on it, what if someone makes a wc3 to sc2 map converter ?

There already is a WC3 and Starcraft 1 converter for SC 2. However, it deals with only melee maps. Siegecraft uses a ton of triggers, a ton of custom data, and none of that can be converted over due to the different programming language. Many things can be ported over, but there is no magic ‘convert’ button. Worse, the custom models cannot be ported over due to the complexity of the Starcraft 2 models. This is OK for now because the SC 2 models look fantastic. In the end, I might have to hire an artist to do some of the models.

Very frustratingly, to both you and me, this map has already exceeded the limits of the Warcraft 3 engine. The Warcraft 3 engine was not designed for something like this. In the default melee game, you will note how the game continually pressures the player to not have many units. First, you have the hero, or heroes, who eats 5 food each (quite a sum). Then, you have the ‘upkeep’ which baffled RTS players from the beginning because this is the first time we’ve seen such a thing. The ‘upkeep’ was to pressure players to play the game with small armies, not massive ones.

Some of the lag can be fixed with a better computer, but much of it is due to the inefficiency of Warcraft 3’s engine. The only way to make this map ‘better’ is to chop off its limbs. Army size would have to be reduced, spells would have to be completely nerfed, some terrain would have to be steamrolled, and the camera view would have to be zoomed in. I’m not ready to hack my baby to pieces especially for a game no one plays anymore. It is much better to make it for Starcraft 2. It will not take long to do so. And it will rapidly surpass this map. To give an idea of how fast the map progressed, when the Starcraft 2 beta began, Siegecraft had no terrain whatsoever and fifteen less heroes (with only one race).

The map is indeed promising. Only thing that kills it is the horrible lag . I run a Quad-core/5gb RAM computer, and the lag is still noticeable . I can't even imagine when you play that game with a full house. And this goes to the people saying "not the maps fault, get a new comp". Okay..most people on Battle.net do NOT have an excellent computer to run this map. Most people just have a moderate computer to play most of the games hosted on Battle.net (Games that doesn't require to have a high tech computer to play with of course, like DotA, LoaP, TDs, RPGs, etc). And to be quite honest. I don't think people are willing to waste money upgrading their computer, or buying a new one just to be able play one single map. So really, when you host this online, you might as well be waiting there for a couple days to attract players, because you're not going to get people with fantastic computers. I can assure you, you will have people complaining about lag, and leaving the game. Not every person in the game lobby will have the computer suitable for it (unless you get real lucky, and get a full house with people using good computers). So I think the best solution for this is to either try to to fix the lag somehow, or maybe try removing some triggers. Take this suggestion if you'd like, I'm just giving my opinion. Besides that, the game is extraordinary, terrain, triggers, skins. heroes, and spells. I'll rate it a [4/5] for all those great components .

You are absolutely correct in that the player’s computer cannot be faulted. I should have aimed for the lower end of the tech scale. I should have brought in more testers in at the beginning to avoid the lag situation. And with SC 2, this will be done.

I’m hoping with computers getting faster, that time will be kinder to the lag on this map. The Warcraft 3 engine has its limits, but maybe the trend of better computer technology might make this into a worthwhile LAN map.

1) Try going from the pre-historic (cave man) age to the space age (starcraft). It would be a challenge, but it would also add length and strategy to the game play.
2) The hall of hero's is a good idea, but if you wanted to expand the map a little bit you should switch to a tavern system. If not then keep the hall.
3)Defiantly.
4) ---Suggestion unknown atm---
5) I probably wouldn't like the places that you can walk into to be taken out. Mainly because I think it adds to the realism of the battle.

The Ages are definitely going to be difficult to pull off in SC 2 due to the lack of models. The Ages wasn’t put in to emulate Empire Earth or anything, it was put in to eliminate repetition of gameplay (since the same units on the battlefield gets stale). And as entertainment climaxes to an end, I was hoping the Ages would help climax the game. I’d like to continue the Ages, but they won’t be in the Alpha. There is going to be some experiments. And as time goes on, once the gameplay is ironed out, the Ages will be added back in.

Aside from the laggy game engine, another severe limitation of Warcraft 3 is the file size of playable maps of 8 mb. It used to be 4 mb, which is certainly worse than 8 mb, but it was still limiting. The custom models you see in this map are all very small files with the exception of two large size models (which I left in as I was guilty of liking them too much) that are the Life Bringer (Templar model) and the Queen (Prime Matron model). All the other models and skins are very basic, very small, right up to the spaceships. And even then, I’m out of space.

Starcraft 2 is going to have to have a higher tolerance than 8 mb because custom models are going to be WAY larger than in Warcraft 3 (and Blizzard says they want custom artwork in the maps). The Ages require custom models, and we need to wait to see what type of limitations Bnet 2.0 has for that (Blizzard has not yet told us). There is something very interesting about going from Celtic Wonderland units (archers and footmen) to the space age.

Also, as an idea for the next incarnation, I think stealing the enemy's flag should allow you to give commands to the enemy army, as this will provide extra incentive for getting it back, not to mention the more strategic aspects (a few defender-heroes holding back a massive tide of units while nukers sneak in unopposed except by heroes and towers, hero-on-hero duels unfettered by pesky units getting in the way...)

This can easily be explored in the Alpha.

The only issue is making sure the side CAN get their flag back. The enemy will likely place the flag in a nest of nasty towers. It is why the War 3 version transports the flag back after a period of time.

The flag commander will have more options in Starcraft 2. As EMPerror suggested, I thought about multiple flags. But that takes away the role of flag carrier, and if everyone has flags then you might as well eliminate the flags and use custom GUI.

One thing I think that makes this map ‘fun’ is the constant battles. In regular melee, most of the time units are sitting around. Here, they charge into battle, get slain, and respawn to do it again and again. Ordering armies to go ‘backwards’ or to ‘stop’ would drastically alter the flow of the game. One solution is to add in a second, but smaller, army that can be ordered to guard certain points, patrol certain areas, make surgical strikes, etc.

Or maybe just put in the control you guys request and see how it plays out in the Alpha. If it works, it works. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. It is hard to know until we play multiplayer games over the idea.

Keep putting out any thoughts or ideas on Siegecraft for this map or for its SC 2 incarnation. If you have any replays, I would love to see them. I check back regularly to this thread even though my focus right now is on Siegecraft for SC 2.

 

[mouseman89]

well wouldnt the terrain be changed over still ? less work to do.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

well wouldnt the terrain be changed over still ? less work to do.

No. The War 3 map uses a mix of various terrains which not even Galaxy Editor supports. Also, due to how ugly Blizzard cliffs are, there are no cliffs whatsoever on the War 3 map. All the barriers are pathing blockers which means tons of them for an epic sized map. Because of the pathing blockers, and the bridges that require hundreds of 'invisible platforms', doodads in the map go over 25,000 in the number. Although I don't think that is the cause of the lag, it certainly isn't helping. You don't want the War 3 terrain. It has many issues.

This time around, I'm going to not use pathing blockers and rely more on the Blizzard cliffs to make sure performance stays up. Also since some unit movement can go over the cliffs, the cliffs might become a strategic part of the battleground. We'll see.

The map may seem like a ton of work (and it was), but 90% of it was learning the editor and JASS New Gen Pack. This is my first ever Warcraft 3 map. I'm in a far better position now with Galaxy Editor than I was with World Edit. In one single day of starting Siegecraft for SC 2, I am almost already done with putting in the spawning battles. It isn't going to take long to add the rest.

Terrain is fun and relaxing. It is even way easier in SC 2. Since I won't be using pathing blockers, even more easy. The only time sink will be the custom spells and the heroes. Even with the War 3 map, the heroes took most of the time going through different spells, fixing them, etc.

The Unit Editor is the Unexplored Country in the Galaxy Editor. No one yet truly understands it. All we know is that it is very powerful. But it is very tricky to do stuff that we did easily in warcraft 3 (like add a new ability). Some of the War 3 heroes can easily be ported over since their triggers will still function (such as the Time Mage). Though I'm going to try to stay away from the triggered spells so there won't be lag.

 

[mouseman89]

odd.. i NEVER get lag when i play this why does everyone else then ?

 

[cleavinghammer]

Your FIRST ever War3 map? Sir, I am in awe.

More about the flag: My vision was that the flag carrier would be unable to drop the flag until death (or it reappears on the original owner's base, as done here), and perhaps the owner gets vision of the carrier.

 

[Koloricsi]

I can't wait till this comes out in SC2, but i probably wont get enough money to buy SC 2 if its completed for like 3-4months anyway, as you told about galaxy editor, this map sounds epic in SC2

 

[WatsoN]

Dude great map realy but very lagy my computer is good and i still have lag

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Siegecraft has a new home...

Hello everyone!

For updates on Siegecraft for Starcraft 2, go to this website. http://siegecraftmap.wordpress.com/

Comments at the Siegecraft blog are also welcome.

The Hive is experiencing strange behavior lately. For example, the last page of this thread never appears. Some people have posted things on this thread that were lost. So please post any feedback on the blog site. At least it will not get lost.

Progress for Siegecraft for Starcraft 2 is steady but slow. The big issue is the beta changing from patch to patch. I expect Phase 2 of the Beta to change even more things. Once the retail version of SC 2 comes out, I expect progress to skyrocket since I'll finally have all the model and unit assets. I'm a little hestitant to do stuff like terrain since so many doodads are missing in the beta.

And the SC 2 version of Siegecraft has NO LAG whatsoever. Think of the map as not as a 'port' but almost like a 2.0 version. If you found this Warcraft 3 map to be of any interest or fun at all, you're going to have your head spin with the SC 2 version.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Ye gods, now I want Starcraft 2 as much for this map as for the game itself...

 

[orcwar2]

by satans fury this sounds epic

 

[Latecat]

the map is nice.

2 issues i have with it:
A: the life bringers ability (forgot what its name was) which gives 1000 armor for 7 seconds - is OP. it makes everyone practically invulnerable to physical damage for 7 seconds. Not to mention that it costs ONLY 35 mana and has NO cooldown.
B: the start is OK, but once it gets to the Age of Magic, i constantly cept being stunlocked. The only item to prevent from being stunlocked is the amulet from the store, but it too blocks only 1 spell every 40s. Either reduce the stun time or just take out the mages stunning abilities (or increase cooldown) completely, its unbearable.

other than that, the terrain is nice, the gameplay is good, i like it.
4/5.

 

[Warcraftmodder]

works fine and no lag at all, all you need to do is set your video settings to high except the gamma (make sure when you change the resolution it must be x32 not x16) and it will reduce lag, i only have 2GB RAM and its ok

 

[Crimsomblue]

space marine and air heroes

the space marine's ultimate is freaking OP..............i tried the map yesterday and he stacked 6 SIX of those ships and juz bullrushed the enemies base........................and about air heroes, they are juz freaking annoying during early game since melee heroes don't have 300 gold to buy an orb and when i used a knight hero(i forgot the name but he shares the same skin as one of the units ingame) i only had 1 skill which could hit my enemies harpy hero and that was my ultimate which juz does 300dmg to a single unit + shackling it and throwing it around for 6 secs...........(without reducing 25% magic resistantce all heroes had)

 

[deepstrasz]

It seems overwhelmed by everything. It lags like hell.
Flyer heroes that cannot be attacked by ground heroes from the beginning of the game. Really?