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Roguelike 2.6

Roguelike!
Created by DeathdruidX

Map Info

Roguelike is a dungeon crawling RPG. Most of the game is randomized, leading to different items, different enemy locations, trap placement, etc, every time you play. Despite the random factor, it's very possible to salvage a run that's less than ideal by playing smart and being safe.
You don't need a big party to play it, either. It's very possible to complete, even to the extra final boss, with only two people. The main game can be completed with almost every hero when they're alone, provided the player is willing to be patient. That said, I recommend having a group. The game's far more fun with a bunch of people, even if adding too many can make it harder.

Features


  • 24 Heroes, all with unique kits. Very few spells are reused and no heroes play anything like any others. Even your meatshields and carries have variety.
  • Even within these heroes, players can customize their playstyles based on their team. The Knight can become an impenetrable tank or a durable fighter. The Psychic could be specialized as a heavily defensive support or a fully capable frontline fighter.
  • Eight massive areas each with their own sets of enemies, traps, events and bosses. With a different boss and different enemy placement every time, each corner will be a possible deathtrap to even the most experienced of players.
  • Extra bosses lie in wait at the end of each area. Players can challenge these bosses for incredible rewards and levels, but each boss is a force entirely on their own and fully capable of wiping a party. However, should they all be defeated, the game will have an additional set of levels including an extra boss whose difficulty far exceeds the rest of the game.
  • More than 100 items in the pool of random tools that the players will find. Powerful active items completely turn the tide of battle and passive items mold wimpy explorers into brave dungeon delvers.
  • Lore! Lots of lore! Every hero has a backstory, as does every boss, area, item, etc. Should the players complete the game in its entirety, every hero has their own ending!
  • Brutal difficulty that challenges every player, even those that know the tricks behind every boss and area. Few ever see the end of the labyrinth...
  • NEW! (Version 2.21) Has a soundpack, giving great music while you get eaten alive!
  • New! (Version 2.35) The player endings have been re-added. For those that played the old versions, some of you missed it and their removal was to make room for something else that...didn't work out. Long and short is that they're back.
Some other things to know...


When I say the difficulty is brutal, I mean it. At least, it should be. Some runs will bless your Rogue with cleave, durability, invulnerability and crits. Others will have him praying that he could even get a Small Rock as a weapon. Such is the nature of a game with an entirely random generation of items and bosses. If something goes wrong, don't be upset. Strengthen your resolve and give it another go. Or come back here and tell me I'm a bad mapmaker, as this is also true.

Also there is now a Discord! - https://discord.gg/UjSEcgyFbA


Screenshots and Videos


Big thanks to Vidya Only for playing and recording the game. Note that some information you get in the video may be slightly outdated.


Unfortunately, all of these come from the same game. I'll add more at some point, probably when this version gets updated.
Image Description:
A screenshot of the Depths, the first area. In this image, you can see several of the early enemies and Beelzebub, the first boss.

CMVmm2P.png

Image Description:
A screenshot of the Overgrowth, the second area. This is the Sinner and Priestess battling the extra boss of this area. This also gives a snippet of the lore from the game, showing the Sword of the Dawn.

fBxl8LU.png

Image Description:
A screenshot of the Piercing Cold, the fifth area. As the party first landed in the area, they were unfortunately met with great resistance from the residents. They pressed on, but met with untimely demise from a boss near the game's end. Such a shame.

n79IoM1.png




Changelog
Fixed a few minor bugs from related to map protection.


Changelog
Updated Hotkeys
Assassin's Assassinate logic changed, but functionally still roughly the same. Cloak of Shadows reworked.
Psychic's Psionic Storm now deals more damage.
Death Knight's healing up, Death Coil CD up early, Life Drain CD down. Runeblade and Dark Armor functionality changed.
Magus Thor's Hammer functionally change, Heatblast CD down
Spellblade Dimension Blade updated, Runic Blade name changed to Essence Reaper. Bug fixed with mana regain.
Priestess' Inspire now gives slightly more armor and actually lasts the appropriate duration.
Shinobi reworked, though still very similar to how he was the previous patch.
Sinner Gluttony actually works the way it's supposed to now.
Guardian's slam damage and cooldown up.


Changelog
Fixed the game crashing via Fire Mages/Aguni.
Shinobi has been completely reworked.
Hotkeys changed for abilities to a more suitable set.


Changelog
Probably the last version unless anything critical comes up.
Hero unique endings and the code to reveal the secret hero have returned.

Changelog
Heroes
Guardian - Less tanky, but a bit more damage to compensate.
Overlord - Damage down, durability down. Should be more reasonable.
Magus - Cooldowns on Fire/Ice spells down. Cooldown on Thor's Hand up. Cast time on innate up.
Spellblade - Damage on Dimensional Blade fixed. For real this time.
Alchemist - Fixed several bugs related to his passive/special.
Sinner - Reworked/Fixed Gluttony (the spell, not the sin).
Items
Mini Hakkero - Tooltip no longer says it has hero restrictions. It hasn't for a long time, but I kept forgetting to update it. Whoops.



Changelog
Spellblade
Dimensional Blade damage output significantly lowered.
Ritualist
Armor shredding abilities lowered, damage aura improved.
Sinner
Completely remade. Make sure to check him out (In a group).
Items
Super Greed's item has been nerfed.
3 new items added.
Other
Randoming a hero will now give a second tarot card.
Mycaruba now patrols the fire area once again.


Heroes
Small buffs - Dragon Lord, Shinobi, Psychic
Small nerfs - Guardian, Overlord
Huntress has been remade. She is now an agility carry that specializes rapidly clearing groups of enemies.
Sinner is now an Intelligence hero. This is a very temporary change and he is due for a remake next patch.
Others
The Cathedral has been completely remade into a more boss rush. This prevents players from waiting for every cooldown before fighting. The extra space of the Cathedral will be used for other things in coming versions.
Character endings have been removed for now.


Changelog
Heroes
These heroes have been partially reworked (mostly same abilities, some QoL changes) - Archer, Dragon Lord, Ghoul, Overlord, Psychic, Spellblade
These heroes have been mostly reworked (Thematically the same but mostly different in terms of kit) - Shinobi, Slayer
These heroes due for full reworks - Sinner, Huntress
(Check out the comments for more details and insight on these reworks)
Alchemist - Base attack speed nerf. Hitting that lategame, not that alchemist picking wretches will care.
Guardian - Taunt/slam cooldown increased, Protector heals for slightly less. The Guardian is overperforming a tad, but not too much.
Magus - Int gain down, damage down. Magus is op, but I'd rather not gut him. Just going to touch him down some for now and see where that takes it.
Enemies
Slight number changes to enemies found in the Darkness. Large enemy patch is on the way, but for now, staying as is.
No boss changes. Much like enemies, significant changes are on the way...but not yet.
Bugfixes
Cleaned some code, removed some memory leaks.
Fixed a bug where randoming the Magus would not give his spellbook.


General
Ultra Greed mode added
Fixed some pathing issues
Heroes
Magus - Full Rework
The Magus was in a strange place balance-wise, being both horribly over powered and hilariously weak. His rework is going to leave him in a better place to play as and with.
Ghoul - Buffs Buffed
The Ghoul's buffs often felt stiff, especially endgame. They are now far more usable and user friendly.
Sinner - Lust Reworked
Again. Lust has been remade as a damage dealing debuff.
Various heroes have had abilities remade into one point abilities that cost more than 1 lumber to learn. This is because levels in those abilities offered very little, now they can be one-point wonders as everyone needs them.
Items
Cleave ranges down
Fixed several item tooltips


Changelog
General
Updated a bunch of icons
Observers no longer can spawn heroes
Fixed multiple issues with the randoming system
Plugged some more leaks
Soundpack is finished! Look below for more details.

Heroes
Alchemist - Has a better money dump
The Alchemist can now spend money to permanently increase his attack damage.
Berserker - Furor lowers more armor
As it says.

Enemies
Seymour's summons no longer drop items.
Sloth has lower attack range and slows less movement speed.
Tiki's summon has been adjusted in the Cathedral.

Items
Demon Saint's Scroll is now accurate to the tooltip.
Belch Bomb replaced by a new item.

Other
Lunatic difficulty has had some adjustments, mostly around stunlocks.
Observers can now be spawned by any player.
Shopkeep shouldn't get stuck in the trees anymore.


Fixed a major bug with the Ancient.


Changelog
New Features
Multiple difficulties!
Safe area before the game starts, allowing players to spend their points in safety
Players can now random
Wall bosses have been fixed. Wall items also have been fixed. The Unstuck feature will stay in the game until next version just in case it messes up.


General
The event from the Darkness has been removed. It can be linked to numerous crashes, which really sucks for people who make it that far only to dc.
Numerous instances of spaghetti code fixed.

Heroes
Alchemist - Golden Sword reworked
Golden Sword is now Golden Gun. It can be used to exchange gold for attack damage in the very late game. This feels a bit better for an Alchemist than merely emptying those pockets.
Archer - Swift replaced
Swift was an amazing passive in the alpha of the game and the Archer has always been good enough it didn't need replaced. This has changed a bit, so she retains the ability of Swift but now has True Shot.
Assassin - Overall nerfed, Assassinate buffed
This is getting to be a common sight. The Assassin's boss killer is now weaker, but Assassinate is now reliable. Shadow Strikes is also now a one-point wonder.
Berserker - Berserker Fury Remade
Berserker Fury now scales better into lategame but now triggers when damaged rather than when attacking. This reinforces his position as a bruiser rather than a carry whose early game is tanky.
Death Knight - Dark Armor Remade
Dark Armor didn't serve much of a purpose. It now reflects a portion of the damage taken for a small amount of health cost each second.
Guardian - Aura Changed
Aura is now costless but has a longer cooldown. Excellent for when you've had a bit too much pizza to be using it.
Priestess - Mend and Inspire Buffed
Only slightly. The Priestess has always been good, but this will give her some more build paths.
Pugilist - Turtle Spirit Buffed
Fist of the Turtle Spirit is now fused with Meditation. This gives it a bit more idenity and utility.
Ritualist - Fantasy Seal and Spirit Mausoleum weaker early, stronger late
These two abilities really fall off when bosses have hundreds of armor. This change makes both much stronger in the endgame but lowers their early power as a result.
Shaman - Stun times slightly down
Exactly what it says.
Shinobi - High Evasion Cost Change
High Evasion now has a different cost formula. It's too powerful to cost so little.
Slayer - Anihilate and Silver Watch lategame buffed
Both abilities now have *some* effect on heroes, making the Slayer a reasonable choice as a carry rather than a gimmick for waveclear.
Spellblade - Mana Burst nerfed
This ability was way, way too strong. That's about it.
Warlock - Death Coil Buffed
Death Coil now restores its cost when used on a minion, allowing it to be used for free heals on summons.

Enemies
Leoric and Ostarion no longer have Fire Bolt.
Arthas has had his power lowered.
Gluttony doesn't grow to near as extreme of a size.

Fixes
Fixed a few tooltips.


Changelog
General
Defeating extra bosses is now a touch more cinematic.

Enemies
The Puppet Master has been remade. Happy hunting...
Locust Swarm abilities no longer cost mana, preventing abuse of early bosses that rely on it. However, the damage has also been slightly lowered to compensate.

Heroes
Archer - Damage increased
The Archer's physical damage has been slightly increased. Her recent remake has left her weaker than most carries, so this will start to bring her back in line.
Death Knight - At higher levels, Death Coil's cooldown is shorter
Early on, Death Coil provides literal infinite sustain for the Death Knight. Later on his health will be much higher, so it's fine for Death Coil's cooldown to be shorter.
Dragon Lord - Overall Buffed
The Dragon Lord was relatively weak for a tank, especially lategame. His numbers have been moved up some. That's all.
Overlord - Reworked Brave Swings
Brave Swings, much like the Shaman's Ethereal Spirit, now has only one level.
Warlock - Changed Hotkeys, lowered Death Coil's cost
As one person said, while the Warlock's hotkeys are what everyone else's is, the QWE keys work better with control groups. Simple QoL change. Death Coil has also had its mana lowered.

Fixes
Potential abuse of forcing traps to spawn in the Mage's Tower has been fixed.
The Sin spawning system has been changed in the hopes of it being less buggy.
Changed the wording of several tooltips for the sake of clarity.
Parasoul's armor bonus reworked.
Removed Cross Slash from the Warlock's upgrades. I don't know how the hell that ended up there.
Teal Player's wisp couldn't select heroes in one of the taverns. This has been fixed.
The Final Boss' warnings now properly disappear.
The game now properly recognizes when players leave.
Observer abuse will be harder to do.
Agni's Flames can no longer burn himself.
Many other very minor fixes.


Changelog

Balance Changes
General
Speedball has been remade.
Several paths opened in the Inferno and the Piercing Cold.
The Reaper event has been changed.

Enemies
The final boss has received some changes...

Heroes
Assassin - Reduced the base attack speed of the Assassin, changed Death Perception
The Assassin is extremely good at her job of killing heroes. Too good. She's getting touched down in the hopes that she'll be less overpowered at the endgame.
Archer - Replaced Critical Strike with Volley, lowered Aimed Shot cast time
The Archer was previously just a ranged Rogue. That was fine when she was created. There were only 6 heroes, after all. But now, she needs something to make her feel different. This comes in the form of Volley, her new spell.
Overlord - Damage down
The Overlord's damage has been slightly lowered. This will hopefully bring him more in line with other heroes.
Spellblade - New ability, Dimensional Blade CD down
The Spellblade needs some love, plain and simple. Emergency Mana has been removed, seeing as how it was mostly useless.

Others
Loggers now grant experience.
A few model updates/changes.
Invisible units now bestow auras. This only really effects the Assassin and Shinobi.
Pay attention during the endings...you might learn something interesting!
New Loading Screen and Minimap Preview!


Changelog

Balance Changes
Enemies
Gave The Reaper truestrike
Rebalanced the Cathedral. Certain rooms will be easier.
Increased Mad Jack's base stats but removed one of his ressurections.
Lowered the power of Arthas' illusions.
Increased the intensity of Death's Death Knell but increased the downtime.
Heroes
Knight - Reduced power of Iron Wall, Bold Leader and Reinforced Armor
The Knight was outperforming every tank in almost every regard. Seeing as how melee bosses are the most common type, his passive is too strong, as are his passive defensive bonuses.
Guardian - Increased base stat gain, buffed Protector and Unbreakable, adjusted Always Prepared
The Guardian is meant to be the definitive lategame tank but right now he's relatively weak. These changes won't hugely increase his power, but should bring him more in line with other tanks.
Warlock - Slightly increased summon stats
The Warlock currently doesn't scale well enough into lategame. Still, no major changes.

Fixes
Updated the Guardian's icons
Fixed the Warlock's Pact tooltip
Fixed the Truestrike tooltip
Fixed the Excalibur bug
Fixed (maybe) wall bosses.


Not much of a changelog for this version. Obviously there were changes before this one, but since those versions have never been posted here, it's a tad pointless to mention them.
However, there are a few issues with this version that were discovered after it was made.
Bosses and enemies will occasionally get stuck up on walls. This is most common in the third area, though it does happen in a few of the others. You can use the -unstuck command to create a dummy that will move the first unit it attacks off the wall and to its position. I'm not 100% sure how to fix this, but the unstuck command can be used to fix it in almost every situation. You could also use it to cheat and look ahead, but really, what kind of person would do that?
The other issue of note, though this is far less prevalent, is that Excalibur will make the hero who drops it lose 5 damage even if they didn't use the active. I'm currently looking into this and will ideally have it fixed soon.


Credits

Special Thanks:
  • Cman2002. Seriously, this guy has tested the game so many times. So. Many. Times. It would be a glitchy mess without him and I could never thank him enough.
  • Renamon and Zyrlin. They also tested the map constantly and caught some of the biggest bugs, even though they didn't test as often. Again, I can't thank them enough.
  • The rest of my friends that tested the map, Jakemaster64, MrPengyPoo, Guhjah/Vestakia. We've had a lot of fun...probably more suffering, but it came out alright.
  • Anyone else who plays the map. Seriously, even if you hate it, thanks for giving it a shot at least.


Expresso, Tranquil, Grendel, G2J, FreddyK, Judash, Callahan, Wandering Soul, Kimbo, Makuza, Terem, Frankster, Alastor, Sin'dorei300, Hexus, skrab, Mephestrial, Olof Moleman, wingednosering, eubz, Sellenisko, The Weird Human, Kibasz, .KC, apaka
Loading Screen - Ryosios on Pixiv
Map Preivew - Zinnkousai3850 on Pixiv

Soundpack

Check out the game's soundpack! This allows it to have music but still be under 8mb for Bnet play. Simply unzip the file and put it in your Warcraft 3 folder. It should look like this (varying on your OS, of course)
"C:\Program Files (x86)\Warcraft III\Roguelike\(the mp3 files and credits)"
I make no promises this'll work...but it should. It does for most of my friends, so I reckon it will probably work for most people.
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/pastebin_data/vr7n9x/_files/Roguelike.zip
Author's notes


First map released to the public. While it definitely isn't my first work, it's the only one I have any pride in because it's the only one that isn't total garbage.
Map Description Template Created by -Kobas-
Find more here: Map Description - Templates



Keywords:
Roguelike, Roguelite, Dungeon Crawler, RPG, Co-op
Contents

Roguelike 2.6 (Map)

Reviews
23:20, 6th Apr 2015 Orcnet: I like the concept of this dungeon crawler, giving random starter locations whenever a new map starts, somehow I am having a hard time spotting what enemy unit is causing a quick death upon my push against the enemy...
Level 2
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
20
Eh...I mean, one enemy worth of exp isn't really that bad.

Ok I understand why assassin sucked in solo runs in lunatic! I didn't get XP for these enemies but it's crucial!!

I think Huntress is one of the funniest hero to play with (especially in solo because it's a challenge and she has different abilities).

Also you misquoted :p

Waiting for the multi hero solo mode!! Not because I dislike multi on Bnet but because I don't have time to wait for a game, or host one and have to rehost few times before going through a satisfying run (total time = 2hours minimum)

What about giving warlock minions one slot inventory? or only to the imp?
 
Level 1
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
6
What triggers sins apearences? I'm here with some friends and we had 6 runs ruined because sins apeared inmediatly after or at the same time with some boss, is there a way to know when or what makes them apear?
 
Level 1
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
6
great thanks!! another question, hwere do you guys usually play? I've only tried this with my friends we use garena but noone else enters the game and we would like to try bigger partys (we are only 3 poeple)
 
Level 1
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
6
sorry for my ignorance but what is bnet? the oficial battle net or is the name of a server?
 

EdgeOfChaos

E

EdgeOfChaos

I really like this game. Only a couple things bother me:

- Mini Hakero gives infinite mana if used properly. So an alchemist can literally sit there for hours racking up damage if he wants.

- Useless tarots. For example, Stars/World (after use) and Emperor (after all sins die). I kind of wish they were taken out of the draw after they do nothing.

- Sometimes when you enter land 1, you spawn on top of a boss. Instant death.

- Some heroes are grossly overpowered (like Sinner), and some are useless and never picked.

- Sleepy Bell and Cleave aggro enemies for miles.

- Huge load time, though I'm not sure if this is fixable. I've seen load times of over 300 seconds.

Also a little exploit wit Shinobi + The Big Dagger. Attacking out of invis makes enemies run instead of hitting you. This allowed me to solo Gideon without being hit a single time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Level 2
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Messages
11
I really like this game. Only a couple things bother me:

- Mini Hakero gives infinite mana if used properly. So an alchemist can literally sit there for hours racking up damage if he wants.

- Useless tarots. For example, Stars/World (after use) and Emperor (after all sins die). I kind of wish they were taken out of the draw after they do nothing.

- Sometimes when you enter land 1, you spawn on top of a boss. Instant death.

- Some heroes are grossly overpowered (like Sinner), and some are useless and never picked.

- Sleepy Bell and Cleave aggro enemies for miles.

- Huge load time, though I'm not sure if this is fixable. I've seen load times of over 300 seconds.

Also a little exploit wit Shinobi + The Big Dagger. Attacking out of invis makes enemies run instead of hitting you. This allowed me to solo Gideon without being hit a single time.

---------------------------------------Infinite Scaling
I think the map maker is aware of that too
I noticed that a while ago and yes while you can Hakkero>Transmute(? The mana=>Gold ability thinggy)>Shop>Tarot>Temperance(Then health rune)/Fool>Hakkero>ETC for a lot of gold, the same happens with:

+PhD and Bottle of Pill (Though I admit getting both of this is harder, but what are the chance of having an experienced alchemist in the game?)
+Not killing Keal'thas/The Green lizard boss/Some others boss that can summon (which you will encounter every game in the last region) If you have some form of reliable hp regen.

But all of them cost a lot of time to have some meaningful impact. People who play with you won't wait for hours. (A typical clear without infinite scaling takes about an hour and 10 minute on lunatic for my party with 2 and sometime 3 people. More if we are playing heroes that don't deal much damage and less if we have Sinner)

I was playing Sinner on this particular clear which I was lucky enough to get Bonetooth, Deep-seated, Faith and Mom's Knife and fully upgraded Greed, I critted like 230k per hit, it feels really good but I didn't just flat out one shot the boss and still had to go through all of the spell (I believe Gideon cast a spell every time loses X% or flat amount of HP?)

I don't have Gideon's stats (or the amount of hp lost needed for him to cast a spell - too lazy to look at the trigger) so I can't show you the math (his total hp, armor) that will give you the amount of damage needed to deal more than that amount.

TL;DR Though I admit that infinite scaling is a thing It's not a big problem because: time. But yeah :p Changing it a bit won't hurt.
Suggestion: Replace the +1000 Int with Maaastaaaaa Sparkkkk (A Line damage spell - stay with the theme of the Item too).
I used play Defence of the Shrines a lot (stopped since summer of 2014) and in that map is the exact effect (rainbow beam) and trigger (beam spell is already on Hive so mainly the model) of Master Spark if you want to make it really close to the original. Some guy from my country used to translate that map so I assume that It's possible to deprotect the map (not supported on this forum :p) and export the effect... (I don't know where the model might be, is it on Hive or Chaosrealm or elsewhere and how to ask for permission from the Chinese map creator so...)
---------------------------------------Tarot & RNG
I don't agree with the useless tarot being taken out, It's part of the RNG (a really big part of this map) and it doesn't affect you much.
---------------------------------------Boss at spawning area
Tip: You can scout ahead by "-unstuck" and quickly look at the spawn area and prepare for it.
I use that all the time and never have trouble with this problem. But yes It's a bit annoying.
---------------------------------------Overpowered Heroes
I agree. Lunatic is a bit easier to play as Sinner since you have access to pride right away ensuring your survival early game (unless you get Wraith 2, Gluttony 2 in region 1 while having shit item, that suck, but even then it's easy to kill them with 3 people or 2 people but the other is a hero that is powerful early game like Berserker or Soldier)

This problem happens with every hero because they don't have their unique identities anymore (Like Overlord is supposed to be the tankiest carry in the early game making his early game easier than the other (like Huntress) but since lunatic gives 10 lumber others carry get access to their survival/wave clear tool. BOOM. He get overshadowed by more attractive choice such as: Rogue/Sinner/Huntress since they all deal more damage than Overlord)

So the game has to be balance around one mode (Lunatic?) or the map maker will have to make 3 maps.

Other than that I don't see any problem with balance except in very specific situation such as:
Soloing as Assassin/Huntress vs soloing as Warlock/Berserker
All of the bad team-comps (Like Guardian + Shaman or Magnus + Priest)

Can you be more specific as to what hero is weak in which department?
---------------------------------------Aggro range + Load Time
I've never had any trouble with this so I don't know...

great thanks!! another question, hwere do you guys usually play? I've only tried this with my friends we use garena but noone else enters the game and we would like to try bigger partys (we are only 3 poeple)

I play on garena too! What region are you on? Maybe we can play together sometime - don't know about latency though... That might make this impossible :p (Sadly I only play on Thursday and Saturday since... School work...).

--------------------------To DeadDruidX--------------------------
---------------------------------------Aggro range on Archer
I've read somewhere that changing the aggro range of Archer through trigger isn't possible. They suggest replacing the unit with a different unit that have same stat/item but different aggro range - :p sorry to give you more work.
---------------------------------------Spell on more creeps!
Lunatic mode makes region 4, 5 and 6 (ice/fire and whatchamacallit) easier than region 3...
Region 3 is really annoying with all the stuns from traps (the creeps spawn in the center every time a ward fires at you) and high damage spells (because it's earlier into the game, not saying that it deals more damage than region 6). Compare to that region 4 and 5 is a bit lack luster... Yes you can get perma-stun in region 5 and the flame wave in region 4 hurt a lot and might kill you but those thing don't happen as much as getting stun and nuked by creeps in region 3 plus you can always just rush for boss and get the squishy one to go to the next region. Region 6 is hard with Pain wheel dealing shit tons of damage and exploding worms just 2-3 shot Magnus but it can be avoid by playing carefully but region 3... They chase you so... Also remember that all of the sins has already spawned in previous regions.

So maybe make some creeps in all of these region cast damage spell to further emphasizes the importance of magic damage reduction and increase the difficulty :p.
 
Last edited:
Level 2
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Messages
11
No, it's possible to modify "aggro" acquisition range of a unit via triggers.

Is that so? :p I didn't know about that... Several thread on hive said that it can't be done so... :D
And yes... I do know that it's "acquisition range" but some how use aggro range instead... Must be because of the guy I was replying to hahaha...

--------------------------DeadDruidX
Nevermind, I found Marisa's spell pack, It's on chaosrealm apparently:
http://chaosrealm.info/topic/8100581/1/
 
Last edited:
Level 1
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
1
Firstly, thank you for the great map, DeathdruidX.
Then...

Huntress.

About bugs:
Under the effect of "Moonlight Sonata" she:
  • Gets two new skills. They have no effect but it's confusing. These skills can be used to get mana if Huntress has item restoring 3% of max mana with every skill use. Also hotkey of "Random - Anything Goes" matches with hotkey of "Starfall". Guess, which one will be used?

    657e64564dca.jpg

  • Loses her "Seeker Glaives". There are no word about "Seeker Glaives" in descriprion of "Moonlight Sonata".
  • Loses buff from Tarot "The Sun". Maybe loses some other buffs. Maybe loses many other buffs.

About something that isn't bug:
  • Upgrading "Moonlight Sonata" is harmful. Really, why do I need two more seconds of losing AoE, if I can upgrade mana?
  • No matter of level, "Lunar Light" reduces armor just by 5. Leveling up skill increases damage, manacost, and... nothing more. Where are the logic of descreased armor?

Mistakes:
  • Mistake is in first upgrade of "Moon Glaives": "bouncing attacks conflict with a number of orb effects, such as lifesteal or armor reduction." - "Moon Glaives" doesn't conflict with lifesteal. I think description must be like this: "bouncing attacks conflict with critical hits, stunning hits, many attack modifications such as "Attack cannot miss", and every orb and buff placer effect EXCEPT lifesteal." (There was a post about it. You said you will correct description. I don't see it.)
Some stupid ideas:

  1. Replace "Moonlight Sonata" with other skill.
  2. Give Huntress two forms like Night Elfs' druid-bear: one form with damage buff and AoE damage and other form with attack range, armor reduction and attack speed:
  • "Lunar Light" changes from damage buff to armor debuff;
  • "Moon Glaives" changes to base attack speed (or passive armor reduction) based on level of "Moon Glaives";
  • maybe change "Seeker Glaives";
  • "Moonlight Sonata" becomes ultimate skill - transformation, that dispels "Lunar Light" (or all buffs (and debuffs)) (and costs a lot of (percentage) mana).
 
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Level 6
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
129
Super Envy causes CTD when dying frequently. I think it occurs when she tries to lifesteal while being dead? I've noticed it in lunatic mode primarily. Also fixed the music for me, just had to enable local files.
 
Level 2
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Messages
11
Firstly, thank you for the great map, DeathdruidX.
Then...

Huntress.

About bugs:
Under the effect of "Moonlight Sonata" she:
  • Gets two new skills. They have no effect but it's confusing. These skills can be used to get mana if Huntress has item restoring 3% of max mana with every skill use. Also hotkey of "Random - Anything Goes" matches with hotkey of "Starfall". Guess, which one will be used?

    657e64564dca.jpg

  • Loses her "Seeker Glaives". There are no word about "Seeker Glaives" in descriprion of "Moonlight Sonata".
  • Loses buff from Tarot "The Sun". Maybe loses some other buffs. Maybe loses many other buffs.

About something that isn't bug:
  • Upgrading "Moonlight Sonata" is harmful. Really, why do I need two more seconds of losing AoE, if I can upgrade mana?
  • No matter of level, "Lunar Light" reduces armor just by 5. Leveling up skill increases damage, manacost, and... nothing more. Where are the logic of descreased armor?

Mistakes:
  • Mistake is in first upgrade of "Moon Glaives": "bouncing attacks conflict with a number of orb effects, such as lifesteal or armor reduction." - "Moon Glaives" doesn't conflict with lifesteal. I think description must be like this: "bouncing attacks conflict with critical hits, stunning hits, many attack modifications such as "Attack cannot miss", and every orb and buff placer effect EXCEPT lifesteal." (There was a post about it. You said you will correct description. I don't see it.)
Some stupid ideas:

  1. Replace "Moonlight Sonata" with other skill.
  2. Give Huntress two forms like Night Elfs' druid-bear: one form with damage buff and AoE damage and other form with attack range, armor reduction and attack speed:
  • "Lunar Light" changes from damage buff to armor debuff;
  • "Moon Glaives" changes to base attack speed (or passive armor reduction) based on level of "Moon Glaives";
  • maybe change "Seeker Glaives";
  • "Moonlight Sonata" becomes ultimate skill - transformation, that dispels "Lunar Light" (or all buffs (and debuffs)) (and costs a lot of (percentage) mana).

Aw... for some reason I've always mumbled to myself to report this bug but always forgot about it lol. This bug came with the patch that allow random. Good point on the Moonlight Sonata and the Moon Glaives.
---------------------------------------
But those aren't the only two upgrades that have problems.
-(as I've mentioned) Attack speed upgrade in general. (saves for some cases as DDx has already mentioned) it gives less damage then damage upgrade in the early game AND the late game... (unless you pick up something that gives a lot of damage like rod of remorse)
-Lust (Sinner): (damage component is too small, -IAS is irrelevant on bosses/sins- Not say that it doesn't slow them down whatsoever because they do, on Yumyum, Gluttony, and a few other but it's really weak) but He has better upgrades and they are too expensive be fully upgraded. Also The Virus (and sometime rubber + party cannon) can balance it out so it isn't too unfair. But still not worth spending any lumber on that.
-Envy (Sinner): damage grow too slow (compare to taking wrath or greed). Great when killing squishy enemy (the black Visage - or the flying spirit thingy in the Rexxar mission) and not surprisingly: Envy (because it bypass evasion).
-Pack Book Thingy (Warlock): Increase range and Reduce mana For tons of Lumber vs More free heal and increase heal range for real cheap?!?! (But at least this is justifiable because after spending like 50 lumber you get to summon 3 underling at the same time). The 6.66xInt in damage is miserable compare to the damage from Death Coil.
-Life Drain (Death Knight): No description needed.
-Nova (Magus): Lacking vs Meteor (aoe/single target damage), Starfall (Range and AOE), Lightning (Single target damage) makes taking it feel less rewarding. Its unique identity (the slow) is max out at level one due to how the spell behaves. Unless I have some spare lumber, taking others ability is better.
-Siphon mana (Priest): has its use but not worth upgrading too much - since creeps don't have much mana.
-Cloak of millions armor (Assassin): Doesn't decrease cooldown by much so it's not worth upgrading to activate the spell multiple time in a boss fight and since you won't be picking assassin in a comp that lack taunt or good tank... It gets even more useless since you won't be activating it regularly. Face it, if you have to upgrade that a lot then your team is fucked and death perception (assassin's spell) is essentially removed from the game.
-Attack speed/Movement speed buff (Soldier): In the early game it's better to upgrade your stat and in the late game it's better to upgrade armor or damage buff.
-All the pulverize passive (Pugilist, Overlord): really bad late game (but they have better upgrade and it's good early game so it's a non problem but still not worth upgrading much)
-Ghoul upgrade (A*c***t himself): Really bad later on because they die too quickly and don't deal much damage, last too short and there's no way to get more of them in boss fights so not worth upgrading much either. Too bad I really like the ability and the idea. (But first let's decrease their collision size, no?)
-Healing totem (Shaman): 25 mana decrease per level. Really?... For 119 lumber...
---------------------------------------Not sure if intended but...
-After level 3 of death coil (warlock) mana isn't refunded when cast on his minion.
-Blooming Ribbon restores mana to Alchemist every time he use transmute.
-Dusk Bringer (and Sword of the Seven Lights possibly - if it's another pulverize passive): better add "melee-only" to the description and that they don't stack.
-Harpy sometimes when she is damage from far away fly to the edge of the region and out of it (in my case, she flew to the right wall and continue on that wall to region 1, not sure how, wasn't paying attention)
-Bosses don't have a description about what they do (like Death -horseman- have an insta-kill debuff, Insane construck/Gluttony gain stat on hit, Hydra attack splash, Kil'jaeden deal tons of magic damage ETC.) makes the game feels frustrating to new players but you don't have to add any description at all because (I think) that is also part of the fun, finding things out.
-Emperor is (to me) a trap. You don't want to use this early to avoid meeting very powerful sin a bit later (that banner and virus aren't gonna prevent you from dying to Pride in region 2). If your team has a sinner, summon as LEAST sin as possible will help his upgrades. And due to how bosses are spaced you are going to run into all of them in order to clear the game (unless you are willing to skip killing creeps).
-Better include in the description of Tower (tarrot) that it deals friendly fire damage.
-Hierophant removes Greed buff from Sinner (I don't pay much attetion to other heroes :p)
-Somehow pinpoint the location of the gates to battle regional bosses (like Tiki) to help new players. (Yes I'm aware of the notification but still...)
-Hint people that you have to enter the "code" at the start of the game (I only find out that the thing is invisible because I give heroes blink daggers in the editor and try to explore the map)
---------------------------------------A few suggestion
-The orb of slow (or what it's called) has some potential (it has X% chance to trigger a spell on attack). A very cool effect if you want to make a character that deals a lot of magic damage but on basic attack (item too). Though it has a limitation that you have to order an attack for it to proc and doesn't stack with on hit effect (crit, orb and stuffs).
-Sinner's Lust replace slow with silence instead (shadow strike to doom) but that might be too powerful since it disables a lot of passive or lower its price (and gluttony and envy), Pride's cost increase too quickly for what it gives.
-Magus (to make his spell a bit unique - all are relatively easy to make and don't require trigger) now have 5 spells! - Still, only suggestion:
+Starshower to Rain of Chaos, drop meteorite that stun enemy briefly (3 waves). Increase range, aoe, damage on upgrade. (combine both Flame rain and Starshower)
+Nova to Tidal waves: On every attack release a damaging wave on a straight line. Increase damage on upgrade. Has a very short cooldown so it doesn't do much damage but remeber that the magus has to attack to deal damage. (same as Nova, deal more damage to the attacked unit and less damage to nearby unit - I opt for the tidal waves instead because this ability is now free, the slow might be too good, but you can still replace tidals wave with nova and the spell becomes kind of unique)
+Flame rain to a simple Fire ball spell: deal heavy damage to single target, stun briefly or (but not preferred) a Shadow strike that LOOK like a fireball, burn and slow them. (same as Lightning, a powerful single target spell with a debuff)
+Lightning to Storm spirit: Either summon X storm spirits (wisp model?), spirit's attack cast FORKED lightning, spirit are invulnerable and have small collision size or use Locust spell and add orb of slow with FORKED lightning spell to it :p (for extra awesomeness, not that It's needed). Note that these might mess up with his passive.
---------------------------------------Not related to anything
Thank you DeathDruidX for making this map. :D
Me and my friend finally return to Warcraft 3 after 2 years. We are having a blast playing Roguelike (almost) every night for these past 3 or 4 months.

omg my reply is getting out of control...
 
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Level 6
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
129
Just ran into an interesting bug, although I haven't seen the super envy crash lately, we had a super powerful sinner with blautsauger cleave through the top of sin hell. It killed all the heroes stored up there and ended the game. Very anti-climactic with 25k damage and 4x crits.
 
Level 3
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
36
Just ran into an interesting bug, although I haven't seen the super envy crash lately, we had a super powerful sinner with blautsauger cleave through the top of sin hell. It killed all the heroes stored up there and ended the game. Very anti-climactic with 25k damage and 4x crits.

I'd just like to support this point and bring more attention to it. I've mentioned it before, but the cleave range in this map really is absurdly huge, I can damage/kill enemies on the other side of the room which attracts a LOT of trouble.
 
Level 5
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
30
Just making a quick post to say that I'm not dead and that I've finally had time to get back to work on the map. New version should be up soon (tm), but I do need to do some testing to make sure nothing is too wrong.
Thanks for the patience, folks.
 
Level 30
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
3,551
Not sure is it going to be fixed or it's attempted to, soz, too lazy to read posts x)

But aggro still drags enemies from other areas, such as harpies.
Also, is something just wrong with my games or the Fire Wyvern Boss has insanely HUGE and I really mean it, like 5000 or so, aggro range? It seems whenever I run a bit forward with my Priestess in order to catch mana units to drain them before the team slays those, it just comes towards me from a long long distance and if I don't notice it fast enough, I can't heal/buff myself long enough for team to arrive. Is the aggro range supposed to be that high?
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 68
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
18,706
It has an interesting concept but it looks like an unfinished map.

-spells need level shown somewhere either in their description or in the upgrades description
-terrain needs work.... It looks like it's a cheap nintendo game
-why not enable resources transaction?

Players have to save often or at some points because there are creatures that explode and kill the heroes.
 
Level 3
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
36
-why not enable resources transaction?

What do you mean by this?

Players have to save often or at some points because there are creatures that explode and kill the heroes.

You're not actually supposed to save at all for a map like this. It is a little unfair when you have no idea what a certain enemy or boss can do, but traditional Rougelike games are defined by the "permanent death" feature, otherwise known as the inability to save your progress. You're supposed to learn from deaths so you can do better next time. It's a genre that's definitely not for everyone.
 
Level 1
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
1
The map is great. But why i can`t load saved game? I`m understand - this is cheating, but i dont have enough time to play from begin to end. Please, if You can, fix it.
 
Level 6
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
129
Hey Druid my clan has been playing a lot of roguelike and we have something of a metagame. I've got our tierlist below, just wondering your thoughts on it.

S Tier:
A*****t
Knight
Guardian
Alchemist
Ritualist

A Tier:
Rogue
Death Knight
Magus

B Tier:
Priestess
Sinner
Shaman
Berserker

C Tier:
Ghoul
Pugilist
Psychic
Overlord
Archer
Soldier

D Tier:
Warlock
Slayer
Shinobi
Huntress

F Tier:
Dragonlord
Spellblade
Assassin


(2:08:41 PM) :: dots: S is "makes comp good" , a is "almost s" b is "contributes to good comp" c is "good if built around or carried" d is "must be carried", f is "completely nonplayable:

Also Dragonlord could probably be D tier but he's just not fun.
 

EdgeOfChaos

E

EdgeOfChaos

There's no way Soldier is that low; he's great at both tanking and damage, and provides huge buffs to his allies. Same with Sinner; that guy can starts out pretty much worthless but snowballs right after you get the first Pride. Ancient is actually not that good - even though he is the secret hero, he's B or at best A.

My current way for deciding tiers of heroes are:

OP Tier:
- Alchemist
- Sinner
- Guardian
- Magus
These heroes are all amazingly overpowered. They hit hard and snowball early and feeding them good items = free win. (Besides Guardian, the exception, who just tanks amazingly and can Silence Gideon's OP spell, not to mention keeping your worthless Archer/Huntress ally alive so she can die at Alura for the extra lols)

Good Tier:
- Soldier
- Knight
- Ghoul
- Priestess
- Berserker
- Ritualist
These heroes are good, but have some catch. Maybe they take time to start up (Ghoul), fall off hard later (Knight), or absolutely require some mana items to be able to consistently use buffs (Priestess)

Meh Tier:
- Rogue
- Death Knight
- Shaman
- Pugalist
- Warlock
- Ancient
Why would you pick any of this? These heroes are worse than their counterparts. For example Rogue, whose ultimate is exchangeable with a 200 gold item and crit is worse than Mom's Knife, or Death Knight, a tank who can't be healed with Holy Light or High Priestess. Rogue's evasion makes you feel like you're invulnerable - until Pride/Pride+/Greed/Greed+ hit, either on map, the Sin chamber, or in final boss room. Ancient can double his stats - so what? He can't do anything with those stats. No damage enhancement like Sinner, no tanking ability like Guardian. No need to pick this, besides for the novelty. Shaman - great you can stun for 8 seconds, and it lasts 0.50 seconds on bosses, which will then kill the entire team. The only thing that makes this hero slightly above bottom tier is because he can enhance Magus's damage, and he has a great ward.

People who pick this shit should be TK'd tier:
- Dragonlord
- Spellblade
- Assassin
- Huntress
- Shinobi
- Slayer
- Archer
- Overlord
- Psychic
Yuck. Other heroes do what these guys do, but 10 times better. I call them tavern slot fillers. I laugh every time I see a 200 HP, 200 damage archer die in one shot to Alura, or see enemies instantly cancel Assassin's Death Perception the moment you activate it.
 
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Level 30
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
3,551
Archer is actually one of them heroes that get insanely fat IF you manage to keep one alive. Her insane range upgrades and upgrades that increase base damage and base attack speed give her the edge of gaining more power for percentage based items. Also, Searing Arrows make game super easy until Alura one hits you lol.

Her active spells don't fit her role at all and she is incredibly vulnerable to any AoE damage or distant damage she can't outrange (so cleaves and sloths in order). She needs an escape mechanism to get her back in game, whenever one picks her, they soon regret it.

On a side note, Soldier is overlooked too much. He's got extreme base stats boost with which none other chars can compare, and his Turtle at max level makes even Huntress able to tank anything for a lenghty duration. I look at him as a tank-carry hybrid: all other tanks will tank better, and all other carries will carry better, but none of those can do both roles as good as him.

Last night, won in Hard as Soldier/Alche, with minimal alche card spam. Soldier's great.
 

EdgeOfChaos

E

EdgeOfChaos

Her active spells don't fit her role at all
Yes, this is the problem. Besides, she has no damage amplification like Sinner (500% Greed) or Soldier (250%?). Sure she has 100% crits, but there are tons of crit items anyways that other heroes can get too, so she gets no brownie points for that.

And yeah, I was the alch ^^. Didn't even get Hakero either.
 
Level 2
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
10
Step the fuck back everyone. Swans tier list is outdated dog shit (Also fenix wanted me to clarify that this tierlist is based off of Lunatic mode, and thats because all of the other modes are boring and nobody plays them.)

SS Tier:
Knight
Guardian


S Tier:
Alchemist (only an absolute wretch would use the alchemist though)
Ancient
Ritualist

A Tier:
Rogue
Death Knight
Magus

B Tier:
Priestess
Sinner
Shaman
Berserker
Pugilist

C Tier:
Ghoul
Psychic
Archer
Overlord
Soldier

D Tier:
Shinobi
Slayer
Huntress
Warlock
Spellblade
Assassin

F Tier:
Dragonlord
 
Level 6
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
129
Have you guys even played this game? Archer does have a damage amp (innate 100% crit with no miss?), rogue's crit is objectively better than mom's knife (-90% aspeed and 3x vs 3.6x??). Ancient has a huge damage amp, good stat gain and a stat boosting ability with actives and ghouls to carry him through early game. Knight is a strength hero so give him cheese pizza and any damage amping item to make him a dps that can't die, plus a constant armour aura that is nearly as good as turtle without having to cast constantly. Magus and archer are too squishy to ever truly do well, though Magus can contribute he doesn't make or break the game. Ritualist hardly needs mana items to debuff 300 armour off of bosses and make them into wet paper bags. Soldier and Sinner are mid game heroes. Soldier is far outshined by any other carry so by the time gets items he's no longer relevant, his buffs are iffy at best and his crit/evasion is meh at best. Shaman isn't great but again you are objectively wrong on his stuns. Sinner falls off unless you get ridiculous items on him, while a team of Ancient, Knight and Ritualist will never be challenged.
Edit:
Also guardian is overrated, he can carry through a lot of the game but he can't tank against a lot of the boss rush bosses.
 
Level 2
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
10
Sinner _can_ blow up and deal shittons of damage swan with proper greed / white damage buffing, but the problem with a lot of the characters (priestess ghoul magus sinner) are that they just fucking die wretched deaths half-way through the game to something stupid. Thats why guardian and knight are the best characters in the game, because they lower the chance of these retard wretched deaths.
 

EdgeOfChaos

E

EdgeOfChaos

Right, but that 100% crit does not stack with things like Mom's Knife, laundry pole, or the mega critical sword. No miss can be useful, but only in Lunatic. The point is, with things like Sinner boost, the 500% applies and then the critical. This can get you crits up to like 30K. Whereas if an archer finds mom's knife, then your damage amp goes away.

You're correct; rogue's crit is better by 0.6, I was wrong. Still, the points still stand the same as Archer.

Yes, Knight is great. Who's arguing with that? I would still say Soldier is slightly better.

Magus's fire storm + lightning at maximum level (you don't even need max lightning, just fire) can take a full 10% of Gideon's HP. Then over the break, cd comes off and lets you nuke it again, making the fight completely trivial. That's why I say Magus is a god tier hero. He also has by far the best dependable AoE (cleave is better, but you can't rely that you'll get it) and provides 10 free lumber to the party, for a massive 20 starting lumber in Lunatic. It also has a long cast range and a large AoE, allowing him to stand far from the battle (you can even snipe Sloth 1 with it, taking no hits).

You don't need ridiculous items on Sinner. Just good ones, and a lot of gold. 500% damage boost and 10K base hp with Pride will handle the rest. He also has an amazing attack point.

Yes, I know I am wrong on his stuns. I didn't time it t make sure that it was 8 sec and 0.50 sec. But I'm sure you understood the point: the stuns are irrelevant when it comes to bosses.

Ghoul is another underrated hero. By endgame, he easily has 2500 base damage if you get Virus and Parastye, and 100% life leech.
 
Level 5
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
30
Hold onto your butts, everyone, there's a new version!

Very interesting to see discussion of tier lists and metagame. Sure as hell never thought that would happen! Here are my own thoughts, quickly summarized.


S-Tier, easily. Early game wave clear, sustain, a taunt, crowd control, durability, everything. Well rounded, a blast to play, everything we could want in a hero.


C-Tier. Strong early game, but struggles to get off the ground lategame because he has paper thin defenses for his damage. Probably needs some numbers moved around, but too much will make him a nightmare.


SS-Tier. The god. The legend. The man himself.


"Why is nobody playing this guy" tier. Seriously, he's so good, but I never see him. He isn't a carry or tank, rather a Tank-Carry-Support, which is kind of a weird role. Still, he's insanely good at what he does and boasts the strongest non-Berserker early game.


A-Tier. Recent revamp of Dark Armor really adds to his ability to tank and deal damage. He's super fun to play, too.


B-Tier. Not really a tank, more of a support. Can perma-cc enemies if combo is used correctly and his cooldown reset is god tier with certain items. Mana hungry as hell, so he doesn't fit into many comps.


D-Tier. The once king of oneshots has been nerfed quite a few times and now sees little play. He has some love on the way.


C-Tier. Unfairly overlooked, in my opinion. He's not the best tank, but he isn't garbage either. He does need some buffs, but too much will make him dragon god of man and not enough will feel like a slap.




A-Tier. Slippery, high damage, high utility. Can fall off a bit, but still one of the best carries.


F-Tier carry, C-Tier caster. I feel like people that complain about the archer as useless haven't given aimed shot maxing a try. Maybe I'm wrong, and her carry side needs some love, but as far as casting goes, she's very strong in certain comps.


"I wish he was better" tier. Stuck in hell between hyper-carry and bruiser, really. I don't see him played too much, so my opinion is kinda varied. Not really sure, TBH.


A-Tier. How in the world does anyone think she's bad? Sure, she sucks against mobs, but she clears bosses like nobody's business.


Gimmick tier. Great mob slayer, not much else. Can be hilarious with the right setup, but mostly just falls off in the Cathedral.


S-Tier. One of the try-hard picks. Simple to play, scales insanely well into lategame, he has no weaknesses.


D-Tier. Ugh. I can't figure out how to make him work. He likely has a full scale rework coming up before my winter break is over.


S-Tier. Played right, can carry a game. No other comments, really. He's meant to be difficult but rewarding, and I'd say he is.




Got a full rework this patch, so it's hard to say. I'd personally put his new self in A or B tier, with endgame at S tier...but we'll see.


A-Tier. A blast to play and amazing in almost any comp.


C-Tier. Extremely strong with a certain setup, but otherwise lackluster.


Game breaking tier. Whoever plays him is a little shit, though.


Received a number of QoL changes recently, so who knows. Probably depends heavily on build, too.


C-Tier. God tier with a defensive item, shit otherwise. Makes for a rough situation if the RNG screws you.


D-Tier. Much like the Shinobi, in serious need of a rework. His endgame is amazing, but it's so boring that there's no reason to bother.


B-Tier. Fun with the right comp, but I don't really see her as one of the best picks. In no need of buffs or nerfs, though.


A-Tier. Neither carry nor tank, he fills a great role as a meaty spellcaster. Plus, his debuff is the best in the game.



Those are my thoughts. Of course, I'm not some all-knowing god (far from it), just a player as well.
Expect more updates in the next few weeks, folks.
 
Level 6
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
129
I would suggest making shinobi a caster counterpart to assassin. Maybe make a tinker type upgrade that increases damage on his spells while upgrading them directly increases damage and something else like cooldown etc. Increase his evade cost and give it half scaling magic resist or triggered spell dodge at half rate.
 

EdgeOfChaos

E

EdgeOfChaos

I greatly disagree that Sinner is difficult to play. He's pretty much as basic of a right-click hero as you could hope to create. There are only two buttons you need to click regularly, and those are Gluttony and Attack. Occasional Greed is needed. The only challenge is surviving until 8 lumber, and let's face it, that's not hard. Also pride gives significant HP and Mana, so you don't even need to play cautiously like Archer or other glass-cannons do. It's true that he has almost all actives, but he's not actually an active hero. Lust is completely worthless, Greed is a set it and forget it spell, and Gluttony has a long cooldown.

For assassin: she has a 100% critical, so she can't use any other critical item. Her one ability (think it's Death Perception) that goes away when attacked sounds great, but it seems to aggro enemies when you use it. Maybe if you have a good tank who knows how to taunt it could work against some bosses with no aoe, which is maybe 10% of the time. Thumbs down, give me Sinner instead.

When is spellblade ever above garbage tier? Maybe if you sit there and stack Excalibur for 4 hours straight, she would pass as a semi-carry.

Slayer's problem is that he's bad at his specialty. Most heroes can kill basic enemies, the only thing that makes him better at it is his 100% crit against enemies. Even then, he doesn't even come close to the level of wave clear that AoE heroes like Magus can provide. And he's even worse at boss kill, making him one of the "never pick" people. If he had several strong, large AoE attacks, then he would provide good wave clear.

I do have a problem with how many heroes have 100% criticals, as it limits your item choices. Compare a hero like Sinner with Rogue. They both activate their stuff, and start dealing huge damage: 6x for sinner, 3.8x for rogue. Sounds fine. Now let's say we find Mom's Knife. It stacks for Sinner, but not for Rogue. Now Sinner deals 18x damage, and rogue deals.. 3.8x damage. Is rogue's other stuff really so much better than it outweighs this? I know it's only a chance to find those critical items, but still: I'd take the damage enhancement over 100% crits any time.

(edit) I see you buffed Lust, that's good. I don't think ghoul needed buffs though, he was already godly lategame. No one picks him because he's boring - sit back while your team kills everything at first, and dump points into soul steal. Then convert all to str/agi and wreck everything.
 

EdgeOfChaos

E

EdgeOfChaos

It's in the first post
General
Ultra Greed mode added
Fixed some pathing issues
Heroes
Magus - Full Rework
The Magus was in a strange place balance-wise, being both horribly over powered and hilariously weak. His rework is going to leave him in a better place to play as and with.
Ghoul - Buffs Buffed
The Ghoul's buffs often felt stiff, especially endgame. They are now far more usable and user friendly.
Sinner - Lust Reworked
Again. Lust has been remade as a damage dealing debuff.
Various heroes have had abilities remade into one point abilities that cost more than 1 lumber to learn. This is because levels in those abilities offered very little, now they can be one-point wonders as everyone needs them.
Items
Cleave ranges down
Fixed several item tooltips


I played the Ultra Greed mode. Very interesting gimmick :D. I lost the first time, but now that I understand it, I think I can beat it. It's very cool, but I think it would crush pub games - everyone would steal the gold and then buy stuff, no one would have anything good, and then team dies.

The final boss power depends on how many items you buy. So it looks like the strategy is to not buy any items, as that's a trap. shame too - I bought mega op stuff and then the final boss had 400K hp and 16K attack (this was single player)
 
Level 6
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
129
If you get the greed drops in Ultra Greed mode Magus becomes ridiculous. To the point of oneshotting Allura Une with only Thor's hand. Also you may want to include in the tooltip that increasing skill levels also increases mana cost.
 
Level 2
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
20
It's annoying to play with some fuckin scrubs in public games because either they rush and do shit like running through the boss and we are forced to follow them (especially when there is a teleporter) else they will die and we'll be screwed and insulted for not following these dumbfucks, or we are forced to be tyrannical and tell them exactly what to do all the time which is harassing after third world which is only like 40% of the game duration :'(.
Usually, I stop being directive at 3rd world and they invariably die because I wasn't there to babysit them.

I know it's not the mapmaker's fault, so the only thing you could do to improve this would be to put a warning when someones tries to teleport to a boss/area and denies him the teleport and start a timer and after 1 min, he can teleport freely. Just a one time check before going to hard places.
 

EdgeOfChaos

E

EdgeOfChaos

Following noobs to their death is a bad idea.. Let them die if they won't follow the tank, then they will learn and not do it again next time. It's unlikely that a noob will carry anyways >>
 
Level 2
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
20
Following noobs to their death is a bad idea.. Let them die if they won't follow the tank, then they will learn and not do it again next time. It's unlikely that a noob will carry anyways >>

You can't win alone the game (and it's not fun anyway) when you started with several players because bosses gets stronger depending on the number of players from what I've seen (dunno the exact mechanism)
So what you said may apply to easy mode, but not to lunatic.

And you can turn noobs into good players if you know how, but it requires extra skills :p but the map is too long imo

EDIT : I tested greed mode and first item I got gave me 1000 gold on each boss kill (i played solo this time). Then I got dead ringer and +20 stats per boss kill. And banner of command. I was overlord. I quit before zone 2 because it was facepalm :D
And overlord splatter is still bugged (for several versions). Lvl 1 works, lvl 2 is lvl1, lvl 3 does 115 dmg instead of 210

You should combine ultragreed mode and lunatic for more fun, I'll stick with lunatic when I play.
 
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