Revival of 'The Idealists Challenge' - Anyone interested?

[jopi]

Hi, maybe someone still remembers the last 'Idealists Challenge' which was
hosted by ~Nightmare about half a year ago.

If I remember right, while discussing the theme for IC#3 I came up with a quite
funny idea for the theme, the participants would have to create a hero concept
following some randomed guildlines.

Those guidelines are a set of random numbers every participant recieves when
the contest starts. Those numbers decide about the race and abilities the hero
concepts have to have. Here are some examples how the numbers could be
assigned:

Integer	Race
1	Human/Orc
2	Nightelf/Troll
3	Dwarf/Tauren
4	Bloodelf/Draenei
5	Goblin/Pandaren
6	Elemental/Demon
7	Worgen/Undead
8	Joker!

Integer	Ability Type
1	Singletarget
2	AoE
3	Instant Cast
4	Passive
5	Skilshot
6	Joker!

Also the role (e.g. tank, support, caster ....) could be randomed. But I think
this might be a bit too much as it can be quite hard to make a good concept
with the constraints already given.

I'd be willing to host (although I never did this before) and be judge. Also I
think the anonymity part of IC could be dropped. Instead, as a good synergy
of abilities is even harder to achieve, I would make all participants use the
same presentation template so the main aspects of the judging would be the
abilities and their synergy, how well chosen model and icons fit to the abilities
and each other as well as lore.

As for the way the randomed numbers are I assigned to the participants. First
I was looking for some random number generators and found some very good,
but I saw some problems in veryfing those numbers (timestamp for example).
So I just worked out a small excel table, that randomizes sets of numbers
and directly assignes the correct meanings of every number. Also it
dynamically shows the exact time and date the last roll was made. I could
then simply upload it as a PDF-file. (Any better ideas are appreciated. Also
anyone who has problems with this, because he/she thinks this might lead to
bias or any other form of cheating or unfairness, can simply not participate in
this challenge )

So to come back to my question: Are you interested in a IC#4? Would you like
to have this theme? Do you have any idea to improve this theme?

 

[Daffa]

Make it and re run IC, just DO IT!
Argh, beem a long time since the last one.

 

[WhiteFang]

I agree,this should be revived

 

[GreeN!X]

That was half a year ago? Ohoh~

 

[jopi]

do you think the random tables for ability types and races are fine like this? Maybe there is something to add? Should I change the race table, so races are not randomed in pairs and participants can choose from those two? Also should roles or even primary attribute be randomed too, or would this be a bit too hard?

Obviously I plan to make every participant able to ask for an reroll of any number of parameters once over the course of the challenge

 

[pick-a-chew]

Integer	Ability Type
1	Singletarget
2	AoE
3	Instant Cast
4	Passive
5	Skilshot
6	Joker!

I assume by Instant Cast you mean No Target? Should be clarified, since single target and AoE abilities can be instant cast as opposed to channeled.

Not fond of Skillshot; anyone making a hero should be making spells that require a certain degree of skill to use properly. If you meant skillshot, as in things like Meat Hook, then having too many of these on a Hero is a big no no. Let people decide if they want their single targets/aoes/no targets to be skillshots.

Ability synergy shouldn't be THAT big of a thing, only if these heroes are intended to be used in solo-play (as you can expect that some concepts here will be borrowed/modified by others and actually made). Better heroes are ones that have a lot of teamwork potential, rather than those who do not.

If you meant synergy in terms of theme, then yeah.

 

[jopi]

well, i'm actually working on the challenge's main page to post it to the contest suggestion (slowly but steadily). there i will make more clear what every type of spell is (with examples)

short description

Singletarget: can be something like 'storm bolt' or 'healing wave' or a ward placing ability. The targetting type shows the small 'crosshair' mouse cursor. The abilities only target the targeted unit/point (no projectiles travelling from the caster to the target affecting everything on its way, this would be a 'skillshot')

AoE: pretty obvious, the targetting type shows the AoE selection circle e.g. 'blizzard', 'flame strike'

Instant Cast/No Target: abilities without targetting e.g. 'warstomp', 'thunder clap' but also toggeled abilities like 'immolation' or transforming abilities

Passive: should explain itself

Skillshot: any ability where you target a point/unit and send out a projectile into the targeted direction also affectiong any (or only a given number) valid target on its way

Joker!: the participant chooses the ability type (from those listed above)

in general any of the ability types may be made a channeling ability.

to clarify, the contest is ABOUT getting RANDOM skill types GIVEN and creating the best possible hero concept in trems of synergy, gameplay and fun. This also means it is possible that you will get 2+ 'skillshots'. I'm fully aware of the fact that this seems bad at first sight, but that's the 'challenge' in this challenge

also every participant may request a reroll of any number of parameters (from 1 to all) once during the contest. so if you e.g. are given that three abilities have to be passives you e.g. can request to reroll two of them to potentially get other skill types.

As it already was in the previous IC's the goal is to create a hero concept that fits to DOTA/DOTA 2 gameplay-, balance- and lore-wise.

 

[pick-a-chew]

I see, this makes more sense. I'm someone who's only just heard of this so i want to make sure things are clear.

I totally get that the point of the challenge is to create a hero concept with the characteristics you random, which is what makes it interesting.

However your definition of spells is still problematic and it will only confuse people (or cause arguments when person X creates an AoE spell that turns out to be a no-target).

Single Target: 100% Agree that Storm Bolt or Healing Wave are "single target" in that they require a target to cast them (Technically you should call them Targeted spells since Chain Heal hits more than one target). BUT what is a bit iffy is how you include point targets in this category; since Point Targets are AoE spells with an AoE of 0. I think it is fine to put Point targets with Single target spells, but make it more obvious and clear by what you expect from this. (For example: if a person made an Infernal spell with an area of 0, would this be acceptable?). This is also another reason why you should call them Targeted spells rather than single target.

AoE: Not 100% obvious at all, to 99% of people AoE means area of effect, which includes spells like Fan of Knives and Warstomp (which are no targets that have an area of effect). Your definition is restricted to Point Target spells that have an AoE greater than 0 (and this is what you need to make obvious).

No Targets: yes

Passive: yes

Skillshot: Again i found this strange; Single Targets, AoE and No Target (and Passives too with creative thought) can all be skillshots. Yet in your definition you're basically saying that Skillshots are Projectile-based damage abilities (e.g. Shockwave and Carrion Swarm) that are cast at a Single Target. Since you're saying these concepts should be Dota orientated, consider Pugna's Nether Blast. This is an AoE skillshot because it has a slight delay in the damage.

In fact, look at all the spells that are considered skillshots in dota 2: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Skillshot

If you insist on keeping this category, at least keep it contemporary (and by keeping it contemporary, a Hero with 2+ skillshots COULD work.

Edit: Also your Joker definition is WEIRD AF, ANY ABILITY TYPE FROM THE ABOVE? Because there are other ability types you are disallowing? What if someone wants to make a targeted ability that has a passive element (e.g. Storm Bolt - Deals 100 damage and stuns the target for 2 seconds. Also increases speed by 10% at all times).

 

[jopi]

first of all, this is exactly why I made this thread before the contest, to get things clear

on your statements:

Singletarget --> Targeted: yes you are right. Your example with a 0 AoE Infernal would be a (Single) Targeted spell, as it simply creates a Infernal at the targeted point but does not affect any units around the point directly (the Infernal's Immolation obviously does but that's not the effect of the ability but the summoned unit). In the case of having 0 AoE only for the targetting circle but still affecting (e.g. stunning) enemies around the Infernal when summoned this would be a AoE spell and the creator thought he could be smart and work around the rules xD

AoE: AoE in this case mainly refers to the targetting type (with the AoE circle target cursor, see my examples) and if the ability when cast affects multiple targets inside a circular AoE or not. Fan of Knives / Warstomp are as you said 'No Target' (Instant cast, what in fact is a bad definition as you also could build in a small delay ^^)

Skillshots: yes, a bit iffy, maybe 'projectile-based' is the better term.

as for the list you linked, I have to say it's REALLY wierd IMO. Some examples: Rocket Flare, Mystic Flare, Avalanche, Decay, Bloodrite, Kinetic Field, Calldown, EMP, Light Strike Array, Torrent, Split Earth, Sun Strike and Nether Blast for me are simple AoE spells with a delay, making them harder to hit (you need 'skill') but this does not make them skillshots (or projectile-based).

Echo Stomp and Stone Form are 'No Target' spells, with a delay

Chakram might be both AoE and Skillshot but for me it's more of a Skillshot (or 'Projectile-Based') spell, as its affects targets on its way. The AoE targetting circle is more of a convenience as you also could simply target the ending point where the charkram stays with a simple 'Targeted' spell (but 'Targeted' spells + affects targets on its way = 'projectile-based'). With the AoE targetting it's a bit easier to know wether you hit or not.

On topic of added passive effects, those would be against the rules (no active spells + permanent passive effects, yet I know there are some of these in DOTA (2). A possibility would be to allow permanent stat bonuses on active abilities). Still it is allowed to make spells that after e.g. successfully hitting a target unlock a passive effect for a given amount of time, the rule here is that (duration of passive effect) < (cooldown of ability) so you cannnot keep it up permanently.

What other ability types are the? As I mentioned any of the five ability types (or rather four as passive does not count to this) may be made channeling. Some examples: Targeted + Channeling: Death Ward or Life Drain; No Target + Channeled: Freezing Fieled (but also Echo Stomp to some point); AoE + Channeled: spells like Blizzard of Rain of Fire in classic WC3; Projectile-Based + Channeled: can't think of one yet, but e.g. a spell that constantly keeps shooting projectiles at the target point but those can be blocked by other targets as they only hit the first they come in contact with

I'm aware that there are some ways to work around the ability types, but to be honest IMO this challenge is mosty about having fun, I mean you're not even supposed to actually make the hero (coding and stuff).

 

[pick-a-chew]

Change it to projectile-based, because people will be able to make their other abilities skillshots (or just "skill" to you ) as they please anyway (which will defeat your intentions). You should make it clear that targeted abilities are not projectile-based (as previously said, Carrion Swarm is used as a targeted spell but will be classified as projectile-based).

Ability types are limited to imagination; you could have a Spell Book based ability (would you classify this as a no-target?), an ability that allows certain technologies to become available (would you classify this as a passive?), or an ability that has two-parts, e.g. Create a Mark at the target point (targeted) which you can teleport to within 5 seconds (no-target).

But yus, the definitions are much better and less prone to confusion/fault! Good work.