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Religion's (Particularly Christianity) place in modern society

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by WILL THE ALMIGHTY, Jun 9, 2007.

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  1. donut3.5

    donut3.5

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    Actually in a democratic republic society, its the people's job as a whole to deal with an immoral government, not the church's. Or in most society's even. Likewise, its not the job of the government to stop a sacrificial cult, as long as the sacrificial cult doesn't sacrifice people from outside of the cult. That's called murder.
    And going to a prom with a guy isn't acting on being gay. Having sex with them is, but proms don't *always* involve sex, no matter how crazy the high school is :p
    --donut3.5--
     
  2. brad.dude03

    brad.dude03

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    The Catholic Church here in Canada supports gays, they don't speak out against them, it's just that they don't want gay marriage, which we have, so too bad.
     
  3. Kjiverx

    Kjiverx

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    the answer to that involves homosexuality. see, the man who is jumping in front of the car/hippo/mastodon/uncle has passed on his genes, and is now protecting them. if kids didn't grow up then humanity dies. this is why women in long ago sat at home.

    They were SAFE there. men went to war because in war you might die, and men aren't necessary after they have passed on their genes. a caveman who distracted the rhino passed on the jump-in-front-of-the-thing genes because his kids survived the rhino.after a man has passed on his genes evolution doesn't give a damn if he drives off a cliff.

    but women can have more kids. so they would sit at home making kids. a society can lose all its men and rebuild in a generation. a society loses its women and children it is gone. gone gone gone gone gone.

    homosexuals probably aren't passing on their genes. prime example of evolution right there. give it a thousand years and there'll still be homosexuals, but only the genes of people who went to the sperm bank or something will remain. so the church is right to condemn homosexuality, at least if they don't go to the sperm bank or have a kid or something. if they don't pass on their genes they have betrayed their entire race.

    so the church has at least a little place in modern society.

    evolution in no way denies the possibility of god. that's atheism.
     
  4. Elenai

    Elenai

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    For the most part I agree.

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    Right wing psychos are not telling us Homosexuality is immoral...The Bible does, and it is. Homosexuality is a sin.

    Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

    1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

    Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

    The Bible is quite clear. Homosexuality is a sin, and while we should not judge them, nor stop loving them. We are not to condone it.

    Also public schools are not forcing people to pray!...Show me a recent example of an american school forcing a student to pray. But if you do, I will show you many examples of religious rights being ripped out of Christian students hands.

    As for the Church not getting in government affairs...Why not? We are citizens too. We pay taxes, and ect. Why should our voicebox be cut out, simply because we religious? And what about Atheistic groups? If our voice is cut out, then their voice should be shut up too.

    And dont forget. The roots of the United States are Christian Values.
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    You dont need statistics for the obvious. Show me statistics of how many living people breath.

    From what I have seen, Yes.

    The majority of Mathmatics came from Muslims. Modern Science, like Physics, Biology, ect. Came from Christians.

    It is true that beings adapt. But they dont turn into entirely new creatures over any length of time.

    Who are the people of the tower? The Tower of Babel? WatchTower Jehovah witness? Tower of London?!

    God is above his creation.

    Then by all means...show me.

    Tell me then. What use would a creature have for Empathy mechanisms to pass his genes? Evolution cannot explain self sacrifice, and it never will.

    They never existed in the first place. You will never EVER find a bacterium common ancestor that is just a blob of protoplasm. Every single bacterium on earth is like a factory on the inside, and right down to its basic building blocks, Amino acids, The AA's themselves are complex mechanisms.
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    The Church consists of people. The Church is apart of the nation, they are by their God given rights allowed to speak their views. To shut them up based on beliefs is wrong, unconstitutional, and stupid.
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    Why then would a complete stranger of a man, jump infront of a bus to save a complete stranger of a child? Why would people go to Africa to feed starving kids doomed to die of AIDS, or pass on HIV themselves? Evolution cannot explain self sacrifice. And it never will.

    The theory of Evolution was made by Atheists, imbued with Atheistic doctrine, and is defended by Atheists. The current theory of Evolution denies god/gods existence by giving full credit to random chance. In your science book you do not see,

    "There are two possible ways evolution could have occured. Intelligent design molded/guided the process, Or random chance, and environment."

    A statement like that, would put the entire Evolutionist party in an uproar.

    (on a personal note: When Evolution proves itself viable, and non-contradictory, THEN I will consider it...but until then, I will stick with God.)
     
  5. Kjiverx

    Kjiverx

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    who said a random stranger would jump in front of a bus to save a random kid? he might, but he might not. you can't be sure.

    Darwin was not an atheist. there is no reason god cannot mesh with evolution. there is also no reason god can mesh with evolution. but "mesh" is not "control". if intelligent design molded the process then you have...wait for it... Intelligent Design! if an intelligent agent molded the process then that intelligent agent could be aliens, and then evolution is still true. otherwise you need to reread your posts. a theory cannot influence reality directly like it would have to to guide evolution.

    if you're telling the truth in that personal note, show us this contradiction that stops you from understanding. i honestly want to know.
     
  6. Elenai

    Elenai

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    O' but random strangers do indeed...it happens.

    Darwin was an agnostic, which is by all means a weak atheist (weak atheist is indeed the definition, not to call anyone weak as an insult)

    Typical Evolution gives all credit to our existence to natural chance, and probability...It does not give God the credit he deserves. It also contradicts the biblical account, which inturn, if one account of it is contradicted, then it contradicts the entirety. Because I believe as many do, that Genesis to Revelation was God's dictated word, and to deny Genesis is to deny all of it...including the Sacrifice of Christ. Which in turn, is an attack on beliefs that I hold incredibly dear to me.
     
  7. brad.dude03

    brad.dude03

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    No, Agnosticism is the belief that we don't know whether there is a God or not, and there is no significant evidence pointing one way or another, so we leave it at that.

    And i'm not sure what church you belong to Elenai, but the Catholic (read: real) Church says that the Genesis story is figurative, just like Revelations is figurative. Babylon doesn't exist anymore, remember? It's meant as a way of symbolism, they wouldn't go to John in a dream and say outright, watch here as the Earth is destroyed. Notice that no details about society or technology are given? that's because it's not meant to be taken literally.

    And to do with Genesis: If Dinosaurs were the dominant species on Earth 165 million years ago, where were we? God created Man the Day after he created the Earth, or is a GodDay an incredibly long period of time stretching over hundreds of millions of years in which the life cycles of countless beings came and went, existed and went extinct?

    It's a story. Nothing more. The Greeks believe that the world is held up by Atlas.

    Hell, until a few centuries ago, we thought that the universe revolved around Earth. If it's god's chosen planet, then why wouldn't it, and furthermore, what purpose do the other planets, and galaxies for that matter, serve in God's grand design for us?
     
  8. Elenai

    Elenai

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    Evolutionists still wont yield to the possibility of an Intelligent creator. And until they do, we will not accept their theory...that is essentially what it boils down to.

    And while I myself personally believe that the bible, while it has symbolism in it (like Revelation) it can still be taken literally.

    Like Revelation, I believe that the earth will be destroyed, in much a manner as is said...the raining fire might be meteors, or nukes...but you get my drift.
     
  9. Hakeem

    Hakeem

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    Polio.
    I let you try to get a better metaphor.
    Show me statistics, because it's obviously not obvious. Almost everyone in this tower (Medivh's Tower) is trying to tell you that evolution is not exclusive from intelligent design.
    I think you better get some sources, because I have very strong reasons to believe that Christian science came from the Muslims.
    Broccoli. Cauliflower. Cabbage. Brussel sprouts.
    Sure, humans caused this, but from this, it is apparent that things can become new species over time. Mustard was adapted so much that it became 4 completely new species.
    I am not aware of people trying to save people they know are doomed to die.
    I know people are trying to save starving kids in Africa, but I am not sure they are trying to do something that's impossible at this point.
    Be careful what you cay will never happen.

    Empathy is a advantageous adaptation for any animal that lives in communities (like humans).
    If you save someone with empathy, then that saved person might have more children, who in turn, will be likely to save each other, and on, and on.
    On the other hand, a community without empathy would have more deaths than one with empathy, so they would not have as many children as their empathic counterparts.
    Find? Maybe not. They may not have had much opportunity to fossilize. But just because we can't find the murder weapon doesn't mean the murder didn't happen.
    Everyone wonders how things could have evolved. I was no exception. But once I learned some theories about how it could have happened, I thought, "Oh. Now I see."
    Nothing is random. God or not, the instant of the big bang, everything was set in stone.
    2 pairs of indentical interact particles, both interacting in the exact same way as the other, will both do the same thing.
    All the forces in the universe do exactly what they are supposed to do, and they do them with consistent results.
    You can think of the universe as a giant simulation, with infinite memory, computing power, and precision.
    If you knew everything about any single instant of time, you would be able to calculate exactly what happened before it, and everything that would happen after.
    Since we don't know everything, we call it random.

    Evolution does not deny God, it allows for that possibility.
    That's because people are so sensitive about whether or not God exists.
    Atheism is a complete denial of God, while agnostics don't know one way or the other. In truth, few people are probably agnostics.
    Either way, it doesn't matter what Darwin was, maybe evolution will turn out to be an undeniable proof of God.
    Faith for me, is reasoning I don't understand.
    Until recently, I just had faith that God existed, but I always knew there was some reason why. Now, I know God exists. (Let's not open that can of worms yet, it's not my point.)
    My point, is that faith is reasoning you don't fully understand. The problem is that your subconscious doesn't know everything. Should your conscious mind encounter reasoning that contradicts faith, you should not dismiss it, you should try to further understand the subconscious reasoning of your faith.
    Because you are human, your faith can be wrong.
    Faith is your own reasoning that you don't consciously understand.
    Bingo. I'm pretty sure "day" is a bad translation as well.
    Is there anyone in MT that say that?
    I'm pretty sure everyone in here thinks that God is a possibility of evolution.
    I know I do.
     
  10. Gilles

    Gilles

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    wtf have you been reading. Canadian Catholic Church? There is one holy and apostolic Church. If you call yourself Catholic you are against Homosexuality. The act, not the person remember. The Church supports the idea that some people may actually be attracted to the opposite sex. And going to a prom with another man is against the Church. Sure you may not be having sex, but marriage is between a man and a woman. So dating should also be between a man and a woman. Going to the prom with someone is pretty equivalent to a date.

    I agree with you here. I think. Reason goes hand in hand with faith. But you can't live on reason alone.
     
  11. Elenai

    Elenai

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    Not obvious enough? Find me statistics of how many people from 1700 are dead today.

    It is definately obvious that Evolutionists didnt have ID or creationism in mind when they prounced about talking about Evoluton.

    I think you had best show me where Issac Newton gleaned his laws of Physics from Muslims, or Gregor Johann Mendel discovered genetic principles in plants from a Muslim.

    Here are some examples of Scientists who were Christian, or at the very least religious, or supportive of it.

    They are still quite similar. Brussel Sprouts, and Cabbage are nearly identical...close enough, and the same is true for Brocollii and Cauliflour. And the two groups share similarities also. A head, a stalk, ect.

    But you will never see, an octupus, come from a bacterium, no matter how many stages of adaptation it goes through.

    You have never seen anything reported, about a man who rushes into a burning building to save an old lady? Or a man who jumps into a river to save a baby? Or Even a girl who digs through mud and muck, and possible drowning, to save a dog, That isnt even a human?

    Rubish. An animal who evolves cannot evolve empathy from a selfish nature. Emotions in themselves are far too complex to occur by random mutation.

    The people in MT are not the leading experts in the field of BioEvolution.

    And I am pretty sure..that I find Evolution to be an utterly flawed, and poorly created hypothosis.
     
  12. donut3.5

    donut3.5

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    Give me a reason why having gay sex is immoral besides "God told you so".
    --donut3.5--
     
  13. Elenai

    Elenai

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    Its not natural, it is against the natural order (penis goes in girl, not boy). Not too mention that it is not a good family life if children are involved. Its confusing, psychologically not good. Among other things.
     
  14. Gilles

    Gilles

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    It's horrendous medically speaking. The amount of STDs is the gay community is huge. It's not natural, woman was made for man, Biblically speaking, not man for man. The Church teaches that in sex you must be open to child birth, that's why we are against condoms. Besides, if God told me to do something I would, if he told me not to do something I wouldn't.

    Google it. This is the first thing i got. http://www.christianity.net.au/questions/why_is_the_church_against_homosexuality

    Googled STDs in the gay community. Her is what I got. http://www.cdc.gov/stdconference/2000/media/STDGay2000.htm
     
  15. donut3.5

    donut3.5

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    The only wrongs that come out of it psychologically are sprouted from the attitude of people.. Gay and faggot are insults now, when they really are as much of insults as calling someone asian.
    And unnatural != immoral, unless all science involving something to alter the experiment, or synthetics are immoral. Hell, anything synthetic would be immoral.
    EDIT: Would you rather the gays then spread their horrendous amount of STDs to the "natural people" or keep them in their own "vile immoral" community?
    --donut3.5--
     
  16. Elenai

    Elenai

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    Tell me then...is being a Homosexual moral?

    I would rather them not be homosexual at all.

    I know what you are trying to do Donut, and it is not going to work. You are not going to drive the debaters further against me, by trying to box me in, and trying to make me say something insulting.
     
  17. Hakeem

    Hakeem

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    Okay, now that is what I call obvious. However, there is a very obvious difference between how many 300 year old people are dead, and what a bunch of people think.
    Maybe they didn't, but that doesn't mean intelligent design and evolution and contradictory of each other.
    I don't mean specific scientific knowledge, Muslims practically invented the process of science.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Islamic_philosophy
    You really don't need to read any further than the first line, but it helps.
    Jump straight to the extreme shall we?
    Bacteria don't just change into octopuses, it takes many, many, many, small steps, such as mustard to broccoli.
    Those all describe the possibility of being saved, while AIDS remains incurable.
    In evolution animals are not innately selfish, they would have to evolve selfishness in order for it to exist.
    Evolution is not about big changes through random mutation, it's about very, very, small changes.
    Empathy stems from mirror neurons, but I'm afraid I'm not a brain surgeon, so I can't explain brain evolution very well. But that's more my problem than evolutions.
    If nobody could explain how empathy evolved, then it still would not be a flaw in evolution, lack of explanation does not disprove a theory.
    No, but the leading experts might be Atheists, so they would deny intelligent design. That doesn't mean they are contradictory of each other, it means the leading experts aren't very open to other ideas.
    Neither are you debating with the leading experts, you are debating with us, and we seem to think intelligent design and evolution can coexist.
    I am pretty sure, from your words, that you don't fully understand evolution. But that's not a problem, as long as you are willing to try to understand.
     
  18. Gilles

    Gilles

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    This is a ridiculous argument.

    Saying Gays have the right to follow their "heart" or desires is like saying we are nothing more than animals. We have no free will, we have to succumb to our instinct and emotions. I have already pointed this out. Some people enjoy killing, others enjoy raping. It doesn't make it right, even if they have strong emotions about it.
     
  19. donut3.5

    donut3.5

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    I wouldn't say one or the other is more moral than the other. Love is love, no matter what the big man upstairs says.
    And I'm not attacking you specifically, rather mocking the whole anti-homosexual attitude of millions of people.
    EDIT: Gilles, It was a ridiculous argument to mock a ridiculous point. Also, being gay =/= raping someone last I checked, or are they by any means any way alike.
    Oh and by the way, we are animals. Ask any biologist, we are a species.
    --donut3.5--
     
  20. Hakeem

    Hakeem

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    The word "animal" can refer to the things other than human, because humans are different from all other animals.
    Out brains allow us to defy instinct, as opposed to other animals, is what Gilles is saying.
     
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