1. Updated Resource Submission Rules: All model & skin resource submissions must now include an in-game screenshot. This is to help speed up the moderation process and to show how the model and/or texture looks like from the in-game camera.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. DID YOU KNOW - That you can unlock new rank icons by posting on the forums or winning contests? Click here to customize your rank or read our User Rank Policy to see a list of ranks that you can unlock. Have you won a contest and still havn't received your rank award? Then please contact the administration.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Don’t forget to sign up for the Hive Cup. There’s a 555 EUR prize pool. Sign up now!
    Dismiss Notice
  4. The Hive Workshop Cup contest results have been announced! See the maps that'll be featured in the Hive Workshop Cup tournament!
    Dismiss Notice
  5. The results are out! Check them out.
    Dismiss Notice
  6. The poll for Hive's 12th Concept Art Contest is up! Go cast your vote for your favourite genie!
    Dismiss Notice
  7. The raddest synthwave tracks were chosen - Check out our Music Contest #12 - Results and congratulate the winners!
    Dismiss Notice
  8. Check out the Staff job openings thread.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

Religion's (Particularly Christianity) place in modern society

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by WILL THE ALMIGHTY, Jun 9, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. HeretoDLstuff

    HeretoDLstuff

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,093
    Resources:
    4
    Models:
    3
    Maps:
    1
    Resources:
    4
    Yes, but I dont think they are suppose to be dieing of hunger either.
    Like I said not all of them are the same, im sure im churches are.
    Edit: Some not Im*
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2007
  2. Neiko

    Neiko

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    126
    Resources:
    1
    Maps:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    Not to go against this, but in the past the Church was the power, and therefore had the money. =/
    I myself, don't ask much about this part in a woman, just that she is part of the Christian/Catholic faith. =o.
     
  3. MySpaceBarBroke

    MySpaceBarBroke

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    3,554
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    I know none of my parent's religions, but we still celebrate things like christmas, because once it's become a national holiday, it's no longer just a holiday for the Christian faith. It's a holiday for all the Americans out there. On the matter of whether or not religion has a place in modern society, I'd have to say yes, even as an agnostic. People have a right to believe whatever satisfies them. They have no right to force their belief on others, but if they want to spread this belief, hell "enlighten" some people, go for it.
     
  4. Kjiverx

    Kjiverx

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    132
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    it's up to you. if you want god, you get god. if you don't, you don't. that is why purgatory exists. even if you are a horrible mass murderer, if you repent you will get to heaven eventually. Hell is like a balcony where you sit and watch all the people in heaven have a great time until you decide to get up and go downstairs and have fun too.

    back to religion's place in society; as long as the bullshit about creationism stays in the weird places it came from, it's all good. churches shouldn't try to make people feel bad about themselves. we're fine how we are, and someone walking up to me and saying, "sir, do you want to hear about the church of the latter day saints?" and i'll respond "sure, tell me about it." understanding can't hurt.
     
  5. Elenai

    Elenai

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,457
    Resources:
    36
    Models:
    14
    Icons:
    22
    Resources:
    36
    [just food for thought, Purgatory is not biblically accurate, infact a system like purgatory (IE: A cleansing realm) isnt even mentioned, or even remotely supported by scripture. And Hell is not a balcony, it is a prison where you are not simply deciding to go down stairs and have fun, it is a prison for eternity.]

    While a Church should not force beliefs on another, let it be known, that other beliefs then should not force itself upon the Church.

    The Church is not trying to make people feel bad. They are simply telling them the truth about themselves. Just because the truth may hurt does not mean we should start lying all over the place.

    (Oh..its ok if you beat up that old lady...because you shouldnt feel bad that you did) That is quite silly in my opinion.

    Creationism, is not bullshit. I will say that right now, and there are several debates I have been knee deep in, that I dont want to start again.

    And confining Creationism, and in the long run other Christian beliefs to "wierd places" like..The Bible, or the Church, which is the foundation of Christianity. Is essentially saying, lets cut the legs off the Church. (then it cant spread outwards like they have the right to) And that is not right either.

    Creationism, ID, and other theories, and also Christian beliefs should have a chance to put their view forth in the public square, just like everyone else is allowed to do.
     
  6. Mor)L(unE

    Mor)L(unE

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    663
    Resources:
    1
    Template:
    1
    Resources:
    1
    Things he "knows" are not the truth (doh he beliefs in god and world-wide peace) Teenagers are defenitly the hardest people to mold these days especcially when it comes to beliefs.

    Personally i think Christianity and modern are eachothers opposites, if the christians had total control, hell we would still be in the middle ages. Everything we invent that can help humanity is "Against god's will" the whole terrorist troubles are caused by religion (both christian AND islam) people have been killing eachother for ages because of religion (see Israel) In this modern society were we want progression and peace, there is no place for fundamental religion and perhaps not for any religion at all.
     
  7. Kjiverx

    Kjiverx

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    132
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    evolution is better than creationism or intelligent design, because biblical creationism has been proved wrong (there are trees older then 6000 years) and there are things like, say, fossils that point toward evolution. intelligent design isn't bullshit.there are things other than god that could have done it, like aliens. that doesn't mean they did, they just could have. biblical creationism, which is the more common form, is, though.
    putting forth an idea with NO basis in fact cannot, under any system of logic, benefit a discussion.

    and there are other sources of revelation besides the bible. such as the torah or koran.

    the Church is usually the catholic church, which, incidentally, doesn't support creationism. so it still has legs.
     
  8. brad.dude03

    brad.dude03

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,267
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    2
    Yeah, going to a Catholic school I was taught evolution, and when referring to the Genesis story, we were told not to read the Bible literally, but to take the underlying message.
     
  9. Hakeem

    Hakeem

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,503
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    2
    Resources:
    2
    I'd say it's hard to mold the beliefs of a teenager, but I'd say it's even harder to do once that teenager has grown up.
    Did you know that just about everything you thought you knew about the Dark Ages is false?
    It's true. Despite popular belief the, Dark Ages were a time of great scientific exploration. Our modern day science is pretty much what the church of that day was looking for. The church was actually very supportive of science.
    You apparently don't know every system of logic.
     
  10. Elenai

    Elenai

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,457
    Resources:
    36
    Models:
    14
    Icons:
    22
    Resources:
    36
    WRONG! For one, you are assuming, and also. Dont forget, the first scientists, were Christian Monks. And we Christians do not oppose technology that helps humanity, we oppose things that put scientific progress above human lives. We will not support unethical studies, just because it MIGHT, help humanity, when there are ethical ways the reach the goal faster.

    Exactly!

    Also. The whole Terrorist thing...is not caused by religion. Infact, the terrorists are only using religion as an excuse, a tool. The problems in the middle east stem all the way back the the Muslim brotherhood fighting against European imperialism and Arab Scocialist governments in the east.

    This is especially disturbing. Consider what a world without religion would be like...Not moral basis. No accountability other than human law, which will surely be escapable for the rich and the powerful. And also, in order to ensure that religion is banished, you will have to cut the freedom to have a religion from the people, and that will cause a massive war. A war so massive that it will echo down into the very end of history. When you attempt to remove God given freedoms you risk rebellion. And this history has proven time and time again.

    A world were religion is stripped away is a world that is will be worse than Soviet Russia under Stalin.

    Fundamental religion has a powerful and much needed place in scociety. Take a look at the hundreds of charities, and missionaries, and ect. It isnt atheists who are running the majority..They are Religious persons who feel it is in their duty to help humanity. To say we dont have a place is folly and presumptuous ignorance [not stupid ignorance mind you, ignorance as in un-knowledgable].

    Evolution is such an incredibly flawed hypothosis. Prove to me that it isnt. I have given evidence time and time again that it is...Now its evolutionists turn.

    Evolution is the Atheist's creation story.

    The Torah is the Old Testament, so of course its a scource of Biblical knowlege. It puts forth a creationist view.

    The Quar'an...I doubt. Though I have not studied it in depth.

    The Church in my context, is the entire body of the Christian faith. And the majority support Creationism, or intelligent design.

    The Catholic Church: as are much of the major denominations: is falling into liberalism, and post-modernistic doctrine. They are cutting their wrists, by shutting down the power, and authority of the Bible. And when you do that, when you say that the bible cannot be taken as an authority, you are saying that the foundation stone of Christianity Jesus Christ's Death Burial and Resurection are just as likley to be un unliteral thing as Creationism...and thus you are cutting down the very reason Christainity exists.
     
  11. Hakeem

    Hakeem

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,503
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    2
    Resources:
    2
    Is it finally time to use the tower for what it was meant for? ;)
    Evolution is not mutually exclusive from intelligent design.
     
  12. brad.dude03

    brad.dude03

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,267
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    2
    No, evolution is a real explanation for how things could have happened. It doesn't rule out God, after all, what then created evolution? Was it all part of God's grand designs?

    Evolution is clever. It sounds a lot more like God then, poof, in 7 days, everything that we know of (and a whole assload more) is created out of nothing. Sure, that's all fine and dandy, but shit like that doesn't just happen.
     
  13. Elenai

    Elenai

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,457
    Resources:
    36
    Models:
    14
    Icons:
    22
    Resources:
    36
    Perhaps it doesnt. But the majority of scientists who support Evolution...dont want God in it.

    Any mention of a god, or Intelligent being, creating the universe, and life in it automatically sets them off as "RELIGION!!! BURN MAIME KILL!!!"

    Myself personally..I would support Evolution, if it didnt try to deny God's existence (the majority of it), and if it provided me undoubtable evidence that it is true, and isnt contradictory to the Bible.
     
  14. brad.dude03

    brad.dude03

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,267
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    2
    Everything is contradictory to the Bible. Modern science did that. You cannot read the Bible literally. If you take everything at face value, you wont learn anything from it, it's strupid.

    God did not create the world in seven days. The story was not dictated, and there are even multiple versions of Genesis. It's just another creation story, made up, to show their view of how the world was created, and the underlying flaws of every human being.

    So, yes, evolution should be able to deal with God (Did evolution happen on its own, or did it recieve divine purpose?), as to undoubtable evidence, that canno0t be provided, but its the most popular and widely accepted scientific theory, so just for that there has to be near-incontravertible evidence pointing towards its existance.

    But, as for your wish of finding a theory that doesn't contradict the Bible... well that's just not going to happen.
     
  15. Elenai

    Elenai

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,457
    Resources:
    36
    Models:
    14
    Icons:
    22
    Resources:
    36
    No, modern science is not contradictory. That is an assumption.

    Modern science was built on the back of the Church, of whom, the foundation is the bible.

    The bible can be taken literaly. There is indeed symbolism in it. But surely the bible is not just a load of good sayings, and moral health tips.

    Its an entire history of the Jewish people, and is so accurate, archaeologists use it time, and time again as a scource when they are searching in that area.

    It has proven itself to be without error on many occasions. Why then should it be in error, because one man decided to say we decended from apes, who decended from rat like mammals, who decended from reptilian mammals, who decended from.......and so on....all they down to single celled organisms.

    Then they set out, and dug up fossils...the only hard proof that Evolution is true, and the fossil record (as I have stated before) is highly contradictory to Evolution.

    A theory that does not contradict the Bible, or the possibility of God/gods, is possible. Evolutionists simply do not want the idea to happen. Mostly because the top ring of Evolutionary belief, is Atheistic. And Evolutionary doctrine is clear, when it says it is natural chance and environment. Not a god.

    And then you have the many things that Evolution cannot explain, and are in error of.

    Things like selfish genes, and survival of the fittest instinct mentallities.

    If Evolution were true, would a man jump in front of a car to save a child? Nay, evolutionary response would clearly deny that, you cant pass your genes if you are dead.

    Then there is the highly complex organisms on a single cell level. Even the building blocks of a cell are incredibly complex, and the DNA code used to make them is not just a few amino acids randomly making 5 genes....which is astronomical in itself. It is millions of amino acids forming a complex chain of thousands of genes, in thousands of different codes of DNA all working together like clockwork creating a balanced, healthy, and working organism.

    Then we come back to the Bible itself. Show me these multiple versions of Genesis. Genesis is from the Torah, which has faithfully been handed down, and kept keen and true by Hebrew Scribes since the day of the temple. It is not a Christian creation in the 4th century.

    The Jews kept God's word, and broke it on many occasions. But they always returned to it...there must be some reason that this occured. A tiny kingdom like Israel, does not go through slavery, decades in the wilderness, several invasions, several take overs, several exiles, and many apostacies, and returns, without some kind of guiding force, that gives the Bible authority.

    God's word is such as it is. God's word in dictation. A book spanning hundreds of years, with different writers, does not connect fluidly, and perfectly, and does not keep it's line intact if there was no guide to keep it so.

    There must have been an overseeing author, and the writers were the pens.
     
  16. Gilles

    Gilles

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    8,462
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    I read part ways into this debate, I hope I don't re state anything.

    1. Creationism. This pisses me off. Why can't creationism and evolution go hand in hand? The Catholic Church does not denounce evolution. Oh and lately I have heard that there are many scientists trying to get more research on Darwin's theories. Other scientists are trying to shut them down, I would imagine there is strong reason to believe that he was wrong, or at least not entirely correct.

    2. When we say "Church" what are we reffering to. Please put a name with it, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, ect.

    3. The Catholic Church is under attack every day here in Canada and in other countries. The Church does not force anything. Has any priest come up to you and forced you to go to Church or to pray? No. On the other hand the government is forcing the Church to do all kinds of things against it's teaching. Not long ago there was a Catholic school that was going to have a grad. There were two guys who were gay. First off, why the hell are you going to a Catholic school if you are openly gay? Second they demanded to be let in to the dance as a couple. The school of course said no because it was against their beliefs. The government made them let the kids go to the grad.

    4. The Church has money of course. It needs it to run. Here is an article all about that.
    http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-3616149_ITM

    5. The Church is not in a Vow of poverty. I have no clue where you heard that. Priests make a salary. They drive decent cars, own computers, and have nice cloths like you and I. They take holidays to places like Hawaii. They are not wealthy, but they are not poor. Certain orders of Monks and Nuns take vows of poverty. They live in Cloisters or Abbys.

    6. Religion isn't here to make you feel good. It's here to save you.
    On a similar note, if you look into History Christianity has brought so much to the world. Since Jesus came science has taken off. Think about it. Egypt's empire lasted how long? Roughly 3000 years? How much changed in those years? From what we have gathered, not a whole lot. Since Christ we have gone from swords to being able to blow up the world. That took 2000 years. Age expectancy has gone from what... 35 to 75 in 2000 years. I doubt the Egyptian empire in it's 3000 years extended life expectancy much.

    There's my little rant.
     
  17. donut3.5

    donut3.5

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    3,392
    Resources:
    31
    Models:
    20
    Icons:
    9
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    1
    Resources:
    31
    The kids could be forced to go to the school, or here's a novel idea:
    They like the morals of Christianity, but are still gay. Nothing is immoral with being gay, no matter what the right wing psychos tell you.
    Also, the church is trying to force religion into schools. We have to say the pledge everyday in some American schools, which says one nation under God. Our money says Under God on it. Hell, some public schools are forcing prayer.
    I don't think the government should get into church affairs, but the church should definitely not get into government affairs.
    --donut3.5--
     
  18. Hakeem

    Hakeem

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,503
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    2
    Resources:
    2
    Statistics please.
    So they refute intelligent design because they think it's contradictory to evolution?
    So you refute evolution because you think it's contradictory to intelligent design?
    I hope you now notice the similarities that you dislike, and abandon them.
    What if there is "undoubtable evidence that it is true" but also "contradictory to the Bible"? ;p

    Well, I'm not interested in contradicting the Bible, but I can try for the other part.
    The Chinese had empirical science around 3000 years ago.
    Also, today's science came from Muslims.
    Actually, one man said animals change slighty over time.
    What you say was said by one man, was said by very many, over time.
    And many among us tried to tell you why it was not.
    Atheist evolutionists maybe, but you can hardly say that to the people of the tower.
    I'll have to check to make sure, but I'm pretty sure Charles Darwin was not an Atheist.
    What could be more natural than God?
    Survival of the fittest is a natural occurrence, not anything mental. Most animals would not do what you describe, but humans have highly evolved empathy mechanisms.
    The ones that didn't work died. All that's left is what worked.
    Or do you use one of the many failed light bulb designs that Edison came up with? ;)

    If you want to continue, then it's time to make one of the threads MT was made for.
    If that isn't a gigantic slap in the face for thousands of people's work, I don't know what is.
     
  19. Gilles

    Gilles

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    8,462
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    The Catholic Church also says there is nothing wrong with being gay. You just can't act upon it. I know what people will say... "How can you tell someone to act against how they were made!". Some people like killing, they aren't allowed to kill people. Some like stealing, they aren't allowed. Some like to rape, they aren't allowed.

    I haven't heard about Religion being forced into schools, in fact it's forced out from what I hear. You aren't allowed to bring Bibles to school. Maybe it's because I live in Canada. Your country has "In God we trust" because the founding fathers were all Christian. Your whole country was based on Christian beliefs. You'll see drastic change IMO. Hillary or Obama (However you spell it) will be against religion being Liberal.

    I agree both should stay out of each others areas generally. But sometimes the government has to step into religious affairs, such as a religion where you sacrifice people. Religion has to step into government affairs when the government becomes immoral. It's a hard balance. It will never be perfect.

    @Hakeem: How so? I don't see what your referring to. The Egyptians or modern people?
     
  20. Hakeem

    Hakeem

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,503
    Resources:
    2
    Maps:
    2
    Resources:
    2
    Egyptians.
    I don't know much about them, but no doubt they were pretty advanced when it came to body preservation.

    EDIT: Are we doomed to talk about the next president for the rest of the year, or can we all agree to put that off until at least 3 months before the election?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.