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Police Brutality

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by Kakerate, Dec 22, 2015.

  1. Kakerate

    Kakerate

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    How prevalent of an issue do you think Police Brutality is? Specifically, in the United States.

    Over the years I've watched various videos in which cops are shown to be doing some pretty crazy stuff.

    "American Cops Just Killed More People in March than the UK Did in the Entire 20th Century"

    Even though the populations of UK and the US are quite different, that statistic still just blows my mind. Imo, a lot of the problem is that police are not held accountable for their actions.

    Really, though. It is crazy police can desensitize killing innocent people.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Warseeker

    Warseeker

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    Why would a police officer to do such things if he swear on his duty (Protection), I don't see why? Arrogance maybe?
     
  3. IcemanBo

    IcemanBo

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    For my statement I want exclude of course "reasoned violance" or any conspiracy theory.

    But black sheeps are everywhere.
    You will always find someone who is crazy and does something abusive, like a tendency to violance.
    Give him a weapon and some power and you can imagine the result.

    Now it comes also to culture, history, politics and many others of a specified location if such things
    is tried to be prevented or ... not.

    You talk about USA. I'm not an USA expert, but it seems like often the USA's answer for everything is MORE MORE MORE, which is ust stupid. :D
    [quote="USA (or gun lobby)]There is a gun fight in school? Let's allow some special security there to wear fire guns!!
    That will help - always more guns is cool[/quote]
     
  4. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    To be expected seeing how the USA has probably over a hundred thousand times as many guns in the hands of the public than the UK. In the UK it is mostly possible for police to arrest people with minimal long-term health problems since you can overpower them. In the USA the police operate a "shoot first ask questions later" policy when detaining suspects because usually the suspect is armed with at least 1 gun and will not hesitate to fire it at the police.

    You will probably find the USA also has a higher police death rate (average death chance per police officer) than the UK as a result of this. As such it is both sided, one cannot just argue the police are being brutal as the suspects are often brutal towards the police.

    A lot of the problem is the UK police do not really do much. They will much rather arrest some old lady for planting flowers on traffic islands that go after actual criminals. Most robberies are never solved, and the police even know the perpetrator but it just is not worth their while trying.

    Here in the UK you can get blind drunk, knife someone to death in the rage of the moment and only get 6 years (usually less). At least in the USA that person would be given a long time to think about what he did.

    The government here in the UK is even thinking of abolishing most prisons to save money and instead tracking criminals instead. You commit a crime and literally have a get out of jail free card always.

    The crazy part is people killing other people. Sure some innocent USA people end up shot by police. But equally well a lot of hard working USA police officers end up shot by criminals. Such is the nature of the USA constitution, everyone having guns just makes more people die from being shot.

    Look at it from the police officer point of view. If you stop a person in the UK they will either be unarmed or carry a knife. If unarmed you can take a few blows, your partner overpowers them and they are arrested. If they are carrying a knife (the worst they usually do) you may use a Taser (which has caused at least 2-3 fatalities in the UK) however that is only an extreme option and usually you will try to talk them down unless really threatened.

    In the USA most criminals carry a gun. Instead of being punched or knifed, they will out right shoot you. Such shootings will mostly be fatal, especially at point blank range and with all the practice they have. As such you have no option but to shoot first before the suspect can shoot. Many people die in shootouts as a result. Some innocent people without carrying guns also end up dead because you have to be trigger happy to survive since your life can literally depend on a fraction of a second.

    The risk levels of being a police officer in the USA are very high. As such for their own safety they have to be more trigger happy. The commonality of guns is to blame for this. UK has practically no guns, most criminals will not be carrying guns with knives being usually the worst thing faced as such police can afford to be more gentle when detaining suspects.
     
  5. TheLordOfChaos201

    TheLordOfChaos201

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    simple answer is that they are Americans. they blow ever scenario out of proportion. over kill and movie cut scenes real in their heads 24/7.

    my prove?

    This year 2 American cops shot and killed a 7 old boy who was playing cops and robs with a toy gun. both cops were never charged for murder or any crime. the justice department basically said it's alright.

    How the hell do you mix up a toy gun for the real deal, and how do you justify killing a child? Surly they should have given a warning of some sort, even just saying, 'put down the gun' before blasting his head off.

    worst is they were caught on camera, but again no charges
     
  6. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Except 7 year old kids have shot people with real guns. In fact it happens many times a year in the USA apparently (only some make the news).

    Many "toy" guns are purposely designed as realistic as possible. In fact this is a problem in the UK since guns are illegal but the toys are not. The idea being you can rob someone at "gun point" yet if you are ever caught you only get a minor sentence (less than wielding a knife) because you did not actually have a weapon, only a toy. However for all purpose the people you robbed and the police called to the scene thought you did at the time.

    There is potentially no difference between a child and an adult. Many ISIL trained 7 year old children would not hesitate to shoot you or cut your head off if you walked down the street in front of them.

    A killer is a killer. It does not matter if they are 7, or 70. If you were standing in front of a kid waving a gun around at you which for all purpose you thought was real what would you do?

    Try to talk to them as it is probably fake? If it is real you are dead as you have just been shot. Shoot first because it might be real and he is not cooperating? If it was fake you have just killed an "innocent" person.

    This is why all guns, both genuine and replica ("toy") guns should be banned from the public. Such confrontations are always very serious and ultimately some will end in fatalities.

    By which time your head might have been blasted off. Guns are very dangerous and so any confrontation involving them has to be taken seriously at a life or death level.

    There is a ton of footage of traffic police in the US stopping a random car for trivial reasons (broken light, speeding, etc) and it ends up turning into a gun fight after the suspect opens fire at the officer. All it takes is for the officer to look away for a few seconds or let them reach somewhere and the suspect could grab a gun and start shooting at the officer.

    It was the kids fault for waving a toy gun around? Why would anyone ever want to wave a gun around? Outside of cinematic/drama purposes there is no reason to even own a replica gun of sorts. I can only imagine the kid thought he was shooting at stuff with it, which is only a step down from shooting stuff with a real gun in the USA.
     
  7. TheLordOfChaos201

    TheLordOfChaos201

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    uhm o_O???

    ok if that's how you view the world I guess I can't argue with you.
     
  8. Here's an example on how Police in the United States of America behave like.

    Aaaand Another mischief by the Police of the US of A.


    I won't link the source because it came from an Inappropriate website.

    See how abusive are these arrogant people are?
     
  9. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    So let me get this straight. You post evidence of two cases involving homeless people and then say that all the police in the USA are arrogant? Yet the USA government has just started a multi-state action to immediately destroy homeless shanty towns in the middle of winter where it is the worst time to be out on the streets (guaranteed to cause deaths).

    Sure the police hurt/killed 2 homeless people. The government has probably just killed well over a thousand with their actions by letting them freeze to death. I would not be surprised if the police are even instructed by the government to behave in a certain way to homeless people.
     
  10. Kakerate

    Kakerate

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    I don't really like the idea of jail, either. Of course, there needs to be punishment for people's action. I understand that. We live in a cruel world, where not everyone can be rehabilitated. Even so, I would like to see a change in thought about how the US should punish their criminals. Jail doesn't really help anyone. It costs all this money, and is designed to nearly guarantee people come back. If we had a better method of rehabilitating (and not necessarily institutionalizing) people, I feel that so many other problems would become feasable. With the way the US is now, though, I feel we're just too far from being able to fix some of these problems.

    Surprisingly, only 371 American Police deaths this year, as opposed to the 1185 citizen fatalities. Interestly, 17 of the police fatalities being heart attacks. Lord knows how many others weren't related to citizen v cop confrontations.
    Apparently, per capita, Ireland has more police brutalites than the United States. So I wouldn't say at all that American Police are in any more danger than police anywhere else.

    I think the system in which cops are trained is flawed. I understand their point of view, having to be wary of citizens that may have guns, but even so. They are trained to look at citizens as their servants. There have been so many situations in which cops have brually slain when they felt no danger at all. You can't really deny that, unless you are not informed. & there are situations where cops are not the answer. When there are people peacefully protesting, you don't throw people that are trained to deal with criminals at them.

    I'm skeptical of believing this happens anymore than 1-2 times from kids intentionally trying to shoot someone each year. I get the point you're making though, that cops shouldn't be naive of the dangers any human can present to them. Rationally thinking though, a child is definitely less of a threat in nearly any situation.

    Something to note, though, is that cops do have bullet proof vests. And yeah, after getting shot you can bleed out pretty quickly, but it's not like an instant death sentence (unless you get shot in the head). Either way, Police fight in numbers, which means there's always a backup man to call an ER. Also, it's not like people are wielding invisible guns. With a good eye, you can see someone's concealed gun in their jacket, waistband, etc.

    The worst case scenario is that you don't know someone has a gun and they pull it out and start firing. Unless they are also equipped with a bullet proof vest, anyone in the area really just need to shoot that person 1-2 times.

    I would say that in general the issue with police today stems from the Government. The War on Drugs? Trillion Dollar Sinkhole that accomplished nothing but raise imprisoned citizens per capita, which stated as before, helps society in no way.

    Going with how police look upon citizens as their servant, this technology that came out last year, this "NEW LASER DEVICE CAN REMOTELY DETECT ALCOHOL VAPOR IN CARS" was provided some millions of dollars to be implemented. Politicians look upon citizens in much the same way it seems. So with the technology; For the state, this is great. Spending tax payer money while increasing the amount of people convicted of DUIs. The government is spending literal millions of dollars to ensure your conviction. What happened to cops catching drunk drivers by their bad driving?


    Ignoring bad philosophy of throwing tithes at citizens to keep the perpetual machine running, there's still the issue of illegitamately influencing citizens in the worst ways possible. In just a couple examples;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

    Government pushing it's agenda like this is insane. The government exists to serve the people. Oh well. C'est la vie.

    "The world may be crooked, but don't let that keep you from walking straight." ;3
     
  11. BlargHonk

    BlargHonk

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    You mean bullet resistant, to small caliber pistols, covering the central chest only, worn only by certain officers in certain areas at certain times; or if given advance warning, and they commonly cause fractured ribs when you actually get hit? Yeah, police issue vests, you'll be fine. Haha. Right.
    Or the heart, neck, spine, any of the numerous main blood vessels in any limb or central chest cavity, or the spleen. Or say it's got a whole mess of joules behind it and the temporary wound cavity is the size of a god damn grapefruit. And man, lets ignore all the nasty side effects that can happen on even non-lethal shots, ranging from severed nerves, shattered bones, local organ failure, massive chance of infection. Yeah, totally fine to be shot. Hell I let my buddy shoot me with .22 so I can build up a resistence to larger bullets.
    Do you think this is fucking GTA where police are like angry god damn hornets?
    Good eye, in good lighting conditions, with the person fully in view, and only if they have it on their person at that moment you mean?
    Yeah good fucking plan. Let them shoot first cause police are macho macho men who won't fall to the ground because suddenly they've got a nice new array of holes in all sorts of fun new places and their brain is drowning in pain as their body is unexpectedly forcibly modified on what was previously a normal day at work?
    Yeah yeah totally. Can't possibly miss. Right.


    How in the hell have you never interacted with guns while living in Nebraska?
     
  12. The_Silent

    The_Silent

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    Here is the thing, even police officers are humans, which means they are prone to the same mistakes as humans are, have the same personal flaws as everybody else, and yes, some officers simply are assholes.

    Sometimes they panic and do something wrong, sometimes they're simply idiots who only joined to get power over other.

    Every police force should try to filter out the bad ones, not all does. Sometimes the good get filtered out, because that particular police force / government has an aggressive agenda.

    (This is extremely to talk broadly about, since it is different everywhere in the world)
     
  13. Kakerate

    Kakerate

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    @Blarghonk; I think you got a little carried away with nit-picking little errors in my last post. I think you completely missed the point of my post. That, or you don't see an issue with current police behaviors in the US.
    Everything I have heard indicates the opposite, that most cops are wearing them on duty. I wasn't able to find any statistic using Google though, so I guess this is still in the air.

    I didn't say anything that indicated that, that's all you man.

    zzz, its this nit-picking that makes me feel you missed the actual points I was trying to make. Also, you are shot if you are hit by a bullet. If they miss, the person was merely shot at, so you kind of mis-interpreted that ;p Saying that there is some difficulty in an officer being able to shoot a criminal kind of supports my points, in a respect. If a trained officer would struggle to hit someone, how about an untrained criminal? Would make police feel a little safer, thus their slayings would be less justifiable.

    I've only fired a gun once tbh, xD Really though, it doesn't make any difference how many times I fired a gun. Wouldn't do anything to help me know about how much human flesh they can tear through xD

    So, What is your stance on this? do you think there should be any change in policy? If so, then what?

    @The_Silent;

    Yeah, I agree with you. Perhaps some of the issues could be remedied by offering higher wages to officers, thus being able to require more competent officers. This would probably not be the most popular option with people who feel resentment towards officers, ironically it being designed to appease those people with the end result.
     
  14. BlargHonk

    BlargHonk

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    It's because I'm trying to stay out of this thread; but the level of idiocy I saw displayed in that post was remarkable enough that I had to respond to it.
    Bullshit, if you go hunting then you'll know exactly what a gun will do to flesh. And you'll know exactly why that section of your post was ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
  15. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Yes but to compare, the UK has so few police fatalities that it is hard to even get good numbers. Excluding civil unrest, war and general traffic collisions there have bee under 250 police officer deaths in the last 50 years.

    There are a ton of countries where police are in much more danger. Especially in some Central American and South American countries.

    Ireland has inflated police fatality metrics due to the civil war during which officers were purposely targeted and killed by groups like the IRA.

    This is very easy to say. Try actually being a police officer in the same situation without prior knowledge and making a better decision. If your life depends on shooting someone faster than he can shoot you it becomes much harder to make the correct decision.

    Not look and negotiate long enough and you could shoot an innocent person. Not shoot fast enough and the only fatality is you.

    Apparently there are over 300 separate highschool shooting incidents every year in the USA. Of course these kids are older than 7 but still kids.

    Most of the 7 year old or about fatalities come from them getting hold of fire arms and then using them irresponsibly. That said if you were to give some of the ISIL brainwashed kids a gun they will not hesitate to kill most USA and UK people.

    In theory yes. However what happens after the person has been shot? Suddenly the "hero" is now in the firing line. A note worthy number of people have died in the USA because they ended up being the person firing the gun when the police arrive (who then have no way to tell if the guy is the perpetrator or a hero).

    What happens if someone unaware of the shooting sees the hero doing the shooting? Maybe they will try to be a hero and shoot the actual hero.

    Sure everyone carrying a gun leaves to shootouts ending much faster. But if more or less lives are lost is debatable. It also encourages more such shootouts to occur in the first place.

    Without proof of alcohol being in the drivers blood there is no case against them, no matter how plastered they drive or act. At least that is what it is like in the UK.

    The technology is the same as the "bomb detectors" for airports that the USA sold world wide. Basically a huge scam for money. Each device will cost a lot and in the end probably just have a LED at the end and a random number generator for results.

    This seems unlikely. You must remember Newton's laws... The force applied to the person hit by the bullet is exactly the same force as applied to the shooter of the bullet holding the gun. The amount of force is not that much, otherwise the person would have their arms/fingers ripped off while firing (why you cannot fire large guns, instead they need to be mounted onto something solid). Guns are only so deadly because the impact area is extremely small resulting in a lot of localized force.

    Depending how the force is transferred by the armor it should result in major bruising (very poorly transferred to only a small area) to practically no lasting damage at all (if it is distributed over the entire side of the body). I guess a fractured rib could happen if the bullet impact sight is exactly on a rib bone.

    Adding to this, a gun can be disguised to not look like a gun. It can also be stashed somewhere nearby so that even if the suspect does not have a gun on him at that moment, if he is allowed to move too much he could get one.

    Depends mostly on type of munition. Some very nasty (and I think even illegal in the USA) munition is designed to splinter upon entry into the body to cause fragmentation damage. Others are designed to be more clean with their wounds and so have the potential to be less fatal and scar less. Big automatic gun ammunition such as used on aircraft and some vehicle mounted guns will literally blow a great big hole through you due to the size and power it possess. Let us not even think of the explosive rounds for such larger guns.

    Being the USA, the criminals usually are highly skilled marksmen. Sure they cannot compare to special forces marksmen but neither do they need to. Thanks to their semi-automatic weapons or rapid fire hand guns they can unload multiple rounds within a few seconds. It also is not particularly hard to miss something only a few meters away, even if your accuracy is terrible and unfortunately that is the usual range the police operate in. Sure they might not score headshots, hit the heart etc but they will certainly hit the target somewhere.

    The general removal of guns from the common population of the USA. That way police will not need to fire so readily and the fatality rate for both police officers and suspects will be more on line with the UK.

    Honestly the guns serve no purpose at all. Although one thinks it would make you safer from terrorist attacks as you can "pop them off" early on, the reality is it probably will not. Today's terrorists are all heavily armed with semi or fully automatic weapons, body armor (so most hand guns shot at the chest will not kill them), extensive full military training and suicide vests to kill you even if you fatally shoot them. Some will argue that they are needed for hunting but while you are at it you might as well nuke the poor animals to death as it is just as fair for them.

    Or if you turn on the television and watch the news. Tons of images of wounded from all the wars going on. After all the only real purpose of guns is to kill other people.
     
  16. BlargHonk

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    Most police vests are soft, so it's still a very localized effect. A 9mm typically doesn't have the energy to crack a rib, but larger pistol calibers such as a .45, 10mm, .357; all would be capable.
    And let me tell you, 10mm is not a fun caliber to shoot. My buddies Glock 20 makes my wrist hurt after only a single magazine. Light ass gun with a big round.
    There are no bans on ammunition types in the US on a federal level.
    Unlike Western Europe, we haven't killed all wild animals larger than a fox. There are still have car sized murder machines that actually view humans as prey and will actually proactively hunt people. It's roughly two deaths a year from bears alone, along with multiple injuries and god knows how many fended off with guns; Wolves and Alligators also will take people down regularly. Mountain Lions and Coyotes kill children occasionally, and I personally know someone who got dragged by a coyote as a child; while in California.

    I should probably add thats just known deaths. As in, they found the body and the cause. Thousands of people go missing per year in the wilderness over here.
     
  17. Kakerate

    Kakerate

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    Hahaha! I love that, laughed my ass off reading this. Too true.

    I don't really know, but I assume the same is true here in the US. Except, they could still pull you over and probably say the scanner is grounds for Probable Cause to search your vehicle.

    Yeah, I could definitely stand behind an officer shooting in a case like that. I'm not talking about cases like that. I'm talking about cases like this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

    You could look up videos on Youtube of the incident. Obviously no violent threat. Killed regardless.
     
  18. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    How common are they? How practical are they to fire? Might be great for a firing range but in a critical situation lighter rounds might be more common or usable.

    Yes but they can hardly hunt humans that well.

    Yet over 2,000 deaths a year from guns! I think more people die from being stung by insects per year in the USA than that...

    Seriously?! I highly doubt there are packs of wolves running around the streets in the USA. Heck if there were they would have been road kill long ago.

    You mean they take idiots down regularly. It is a water based reptile with limited on land activity. It is probably one of the least threatening predators a human can face due to its simple behaviour and rather specific habitat. Sure it is an absolute terror if you are in the waters or along the waters they infest like our ancient ancestors who needed to fetch water. However in a town/city there is practically no chance one will ever kill you. Outside of their muddy banks and murky water they are visible from several hundred meters away. Although they can move fast, they can only do so for short distances on land so it is unlikely they will chase you down several hundred meters, more than enough distance for you to completely avoid it. Finally they are masters of hunting in the water and not land, as such they will generally not even try to respond to stuff not directly near the water.

    You most certainly do not need a gun to deal with an alligator. They are very easily and safely caught, transported and released with the right tools with very little risk to human or alligator life.

    Look at people like Steve Irwin who messed around with probably thousands of alligators, crocodiles and camines. Did he die to one? No he died because he messed around with a completely different animal, a sting ray of sorts if I recall.

    How many children are killed every year by people with guns?

    I know people who got dragged by domesticated dogs... At throat, dragged across yard.

    Yes we know thousands of USA people are stupid. There really is no excuse for that to happen in this day and age. If you go into the wilderness (for some reason?! I would only imagine conservationists and biologists would do that...) you go prepared. You never go alone (immediately rules out the threat of most wild animals), always bring backups (do not take just 1 car and no phones, at least take an distress beacon) and you most certainly do not bring your toddler aged kids with you which you have enough problems keeping safe in the city.

    My parents toured Africa when they were students (long before me). They went all over the place when it was considerably more wild than it is now. I do not think they had guns with them, although they did have knives (mostly for practicality, you try opening and fixing stuff without one...). They say the most frightened they were was near some of the native tribes. After many such trips the only major fatality they knew about was due to someone's bad driving causing them to roll their Landrover (a road traffic accident).

    No they would have to detain you for "suspected drink driving" and take you to the station to be breathalysed or blood tested. Street side breathalysers used by the police cannot be used as evidence (not accurate enough, easily fooled), but can be used to detain people.

    I cannot make an opinion on such a case due to how foreign the USA is to the rest of the world. The officer must have had a reason, as only psychopaths would kill without one and they would do so more often. It could be they thought it was another suspect who they did know was armed.
     
  19. BlargHonk

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    Reasonably common, especially given that .45 pistols were our main military issue from 1912 to 1985.
    Brown Bears can outrun a horse. They can climb trees. I've seen videos of them breaking into houses and cars looking for food.
    Roughly 8500; with 6000 of that being from pistols. Murders with rifles are actually very uncommon. This is out of a rough total of 14000 per year.
    African Americans are also grossly over represented in the statistics as well, both as victim and offender, despite making up only 1/8th of our legal population. For example: in 2013 stats, of the 10020 murders where the offenders race is known (ie they got caught), they contributed 5375, or 54% of known. Assuming the unknown portion is statistically the same as the known, it comes out to 7581. If their contribution is excluded, then we'd have only a murder rate of 2.37 per 100k for that year; or close to Norway. This is versus 4.5 per 100k with them included.
    Basically the minorities keep shooting eachother, and there doesn't seem to be any good way to stop it. The only solution I've heard is just to throw money at it, which is laughable.
    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...lent-crime/murder-topic-page/murdermain_final
    You can go look at other years if you like. It's always around 50-55% holding as far back as this data goes.
    Gray Wolves are more of an issue up in the Northwest and Alaska. I know you're thinking they're just like big dogs or something, but you really have to get near one to actually understand how drastic domestication was. They're not animals you fuck around with. Coyotes are the main issue countrywide with their packs. Hell theres a den of some by the railroad tracks behind my house.
    I think you really, really don't know how the terrain is down there. Alligators will live in some shockingly small lakes. Lakes people build next to. Hell at my grandparents we'd watch them from inside when they came out of the water. One started getting aggressive too, coming ashore as soon as people went outside. Had to be shot, and it was 5 meters long when they pulled it out of the water. They taste really good by the way.
    That is what happens when you leave a shitload of convicts in a desert continent. They go nuts and quit using proper tools.
    For 2013 again, under 18, 479 out of 1027; but if you look at the age break down, deaths from firearms rises with age bracket. I really don't consider teenagers children, so under 13 its 101 out of 559.
    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...le_9_murder_victims_by_age_by_weapon_2013.xls
    Gotta say I didn't expect the unarmed section to be that large for 4 and under. Bit disturbing.
    Now imagine thats a food source to them, not just for aggression.
    I don't think you realize just how large the US is, and how much wilderness there really is. Or how many people still feed themselves by hunting. Shit, with good refrigeration a few deers can keep a family fed for an entire year. Not to mention it's beautiful, we didn't kill our environment like you guys did industrialization.
    What part of Africa, because thats really important to determine if its dangerous. ie were they just out in South where the megafauna isn't around too much; or somewhere up in the North where it's just desert.