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Patch 1.30.2 PTR Update

Discussion in 'Latest Updates and News' started by TriggerHappy, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. pick-a-chew

    pick-a-chew

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    I delight in the irony.

    It's suicidal for a bot supporter to point that out. Here, the Hive, where Warcraft 3 modding is paramount, and you have members claiming bots are great for the game. Yet everything about bots antagonizes any kind of map development. Who would ever bother trying to contend with a custom games list spammed to the brim with shit? Your only chances of "creating competitive maps" is to take advantage of bots yourselves, that's how hostile it is. The riddance of bots is a godsend for the Hive.

    I couldn't address you even if i whacked you in the face with all these imaginary straws you keep pulling out of your ass.

    I always find this argument odd. I played Dota 1 back when PlayDota (was that it?) was still a thing. That was before bots, where people would host games manually and submit replays on a website, and that was also when dota was insanely popular.

    How vague. You talk about the Warcraft III community like it is minuscule and that these "numerous communities" are ubiquitous when they are in fact not. I am not convinced DotA is even a good argument. It was a giant in its time, and now is played only for nostalgia or by people who can't afford a computer that runs DotA 2.

    Oh please. Warcraft 3 is a nexus of different players and communities, it is inevitable with any big change that some part of the player base will be adversely affected. I didn't mean to come off as sounding evil or ruthless, but what people want is Blizzard to accommodate them, and it's just incredibly unlikely they will meet demands.
     
  2. Jouven

    Jouven

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    Another straw man, you are misunderstanding me, here Straw man - Wikipedia
     
  3. Napoqe

    Napoqe

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    I read some posts for and against hostbots, and I say congratulations. These arguments can lead to a patch revision when they launch and I have learned some functions that bots can do. However if they remove I will not stop playing Warcraft 3. But the protests have valid arguments.
    But for me, bots need regulation, that absolute freedom always takes with them bad intentional actions.
     
  4. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    Sigh, yet another brave blizzard knight with no understanding what works and what not. So pity.
    Without solid reasons there are no way downgrade can be good. I can understand closing memehack, in the end. But ghost bots? No reasons to. Just the idea that they can bring their own solution.. Maybe. Or let it rot for years, just like it was 2008-2016.
     
  5. pick-a-chew

    pick-a-chew

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    Ah yes, the Socrates wannabe. Despite knowing so much about forming logical arguments and putting people in their place, they instead incessantly quote people saying "straw man" and then hide behind Wikipedia links.

    I understand it very clearly Draco. It is a downgrade for you, irrefutably, and it will greatly disrupt your two dota communities. But for the common player its an undeniable upgrade. So much so that it is likely they will look past the casualties. Your only legitimate defense is to present Blizzard the size and activity of your community with actual facts, and reiterate how this is thanks to bots, rather than shielding yourself with anecdotes.

    Could you imagine that? If ENT and MMH, instead of shutting down their bots for 2 days, actually bothered to make a case for themselves by collating bot statistics and presenting it to Blizzard? What a world that'd be.
     
  6. Anders458

    Anders458

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    They did at the time of course. But that does not really relevant to why Blizzard shouldn't fill the same void natively now. Blizzard has not even announced the specific features they are going to be releasing. They have however said that they are going to fill that same void that motivated the creation of bots in the first place.

    I agree. But it is not unreasonable to assume the appropriate bot features are going to be re-implemented eventually in their replacement system. Then communities have to worry less about the administrative and technical nonsense that comes with running bots. They can focus on event planning, developing their own game statistics etc...

    Suppose they do manage to fully replace the relevant bot features with whatever system they are developing. Blizzard can natively do anything they want beyond that. If they are interested in advanced long-term features (which it seems they are), getting their infrastructure under control is an obvious prerequisite.

    So features are important of course, but if you grant that they have intentions to provide a legitimate alternative, what is the big issue?
     
  7. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    Oh sure. When somebody puts a gun on you, u should collaborate. Silent sheep.
    And who are the "normal player" is? So far I could only notice couple blizz fans and nobody else. Loud majority is on fire, wheres your "normal players" are tho? In those 1k online realms have now?
     
  8. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    If bots are what keeps your game alive, then game is dead anyway.
     
  9. A Void

    A Void

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    What's so difficult to understand? As a community we are dependent on third party hosting services, don't you hear how stupid that sounds? Hosting should be part of normal client again, I don't want to keep waiting in lines on some third party website just to host maps that are approved by them.

    Instead of being rude and toxic you could actually provide real arguments with facts.
     
  10. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    Real argument - it works, it developed actively, developers didn't ditch their child, give it to anyone for free, it doesn't need any fix, the only thing which needs fixing is bnet games filter. So what? If you can't see why bots are good for community there are nothing to talk about with you.
     
  11. MyPad

    MyPad

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    Can a certain entity who intellectually owns a certain object be responsible for the changes pushed to it from others? Does that entity have the right to reject such changes? Can that entity not compromise with others regarding the state of the object in question? If any of them are negative, then is that object truly owned by that entity?

    Such a question, I believe, belongs here.

    Government

    On the plus side, Host bots allow such functionality as determination of ranking in a certain custom game.


    Opposition

    On the contrapositive side, they have been correlated with the decrease in the gaming population within Warcraft 3.




    I am sure that this isn't the right place to debate about the state of host bots towards our fellow Hivers, as it detracts from the main purpose of the thread itself.
     
  12. DracoL1ch

    DracoL1ch

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    just a reminder that all the greatness custom maps had depends on the 3rd party solutions and not blizzard. Map optimizers, code obfuscation, syntax checker, model editing software - nothing was ever provided by game but raw editor. And now you call it to be undesirable part of wc3. Wish we could have parallel universe where those werent invented and custom map loading still takes good 5-10 mins. Sigh.
     
  13. disruptive_

    disruptive_

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    I tried to prescind from the good/bad axis (Blizzard did/is good/bad/shitty/etc) on my analysis, because projecting ethics here is dull and arguably more difficult to obtain an objective forecast or insight. Unless of course you directly ask the executives what they had in mind when they did this.
    Who volunteers? I think they have twitter...:gg:

    1. This move done by Blizzard is rational and follows a much needed centralization policy. I even coincide (on a corporative level, as if were Blizzard executive) on the word "needed". When was the last major update? They basically conceded control (NewGen/WEX/Third Party Tools/Bots/Realm Servers/even liberal distribution of custom maps) over all these years. Such control could allow them to exploit lots of benefits, or atleast exclude free riders (on their perspective of course). For us, on the good side this control will allow them to implant their vision (top secret) for this WC3 revival campaing™ better. I think we should agree that Blizzard does things with a good dose of quality. Maybe too slow tho. Maybe too fucking slow. Also, with such control, should they mess things up, the responsability will be on their hands. Atleast we all be going with a clear conscious.

    2. The power of consumers radicates on their elections. A single dude can punish Blizzard by ie. buying other games, making a 2 minute youtube rant, among other notable mechanisms. But let's face it, you're not even gonna do that. Also a collective measure here is simply utopic. Also, and as i said, you are all junkies (let me stress that), so you all will forgive Blizzard in the end, as long as they give you the next quick fix.
    Hey, atleast this game was a one time purchase and didn't follow the new game business models. Unless.

    3. Following this analysis, another blatant douchebaggery (but that will restore a lot of control on the custom map aspect) could be making a formal contract with the HIVE (basically a commercial license with them so the HIVE could recieve some remuneration but costing something...what could it be?), then maybe inflirtrating a Blizzard guy here with some direct power (reviewing maps/resources and such).
    Suddenly one day we'll be getting discounts on Blizzard games, but having much needed spam on our mails, product placement on this site, etc.
    But that's too agressive. Forget this.

    I think the fireworks phase is over, now we're on the back whipping phase. Should people complain too much, then maybe we get some more fireworks, like ie. a new SetBlizzardOnFire native or some shit like that, 31 new players, and 17 new colors (the 17º is the gay flag color). Then, maybe, we'll be finally get an agreement phase.
     
  14. mori

    mori

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    I think enough rhetorics have been made, and it's time to close this discussion in my opinion.

    It is clear, once again, just like it was with memhack, that neither side will budge, one screaming apocalyptics, the other just trying to see where this all goes.

    For now, I think, the only correct course of action is to wait for another Blizzard statement on this, and to stop this pointless bickering - I've seen the same arguments repeated ad nauseum for the last 4 pages, and at this point it's devolved into throwing expletives at each other like a bunch of immature brats, and it isn't making anyone look better or more correct.

    Both sides should back up their arguments with facts and data, not unbased conjectures. The petition is a good way to gauge that, although I disagree with the ENT and MMH staff in how they worded their statements, and in my opinion, misleading many users to think that this is the end of all, rather than letting people make their own opinions and decisions. But, that ship has sailed.

    At this point, the only thing that can provide more data is a public poll, just like with the most popular language in WC3, and it would be a good move for Blizzard at this point, IMO.

    We are at the mercy of Blizzard and their executives. Ultimately, arguing with each other, insulting anyone who isn't on your side, prophetizing the end of WC3, etc. does nothing to convince them to change their minds. If you wish to be heard, make a statement, and do not argue further. Make suggestions. Feedback. Gather data by means of polls. I previously suggested how a public bot API or dedicated bot software maintained by Blizzard could solve this situation, and I still stand by my idea. If you have other suggestions, by all means, introduce them.

    Let's be civil.
     
  15. Tovio

    Tovio

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    Dear Blizzard, please, revert back to 1.26 and don't touch the game.
     
  16. Lord_Earthfire

    Lord_Earthfire

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    Honestly, the only argumebts i see for bots, at their current stage, that is left, are additional features like autorefresh and votekick and stat tracking.

    You had these features before with third party programms, without bots. These are independing from bots. The only exception is automatically stat tracking. Hosts could gain most of these features 10 years ago, before bots became rampant.

    So, when talking about pro or con bots, kick the additional features out of the equation. These are a complete different topic, independing from bots.

    Talking about additional features in bot games is no argument for bots themself, but for third party programms.
    And i think that having these features is a good thing, and Blizzard needs to make the avaible or enable the tools, i just believe that bots need to go , also because they were a major contributor to the decline in wc3's playerbase.
     
  17. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    Let's not impede progress because a change takes us out of our comfort zone please.


    This is a good change and hostbots can die in a fire for all the security issues they impose alone. You should not have to rely on shady 3rd party websites to be able to play a game.
    Instead of complaining about these changes, have a meaniningful discussion about how to implement the few things they provided over the vanilla game, like votekick functionality and server stats - because all these things can be natively implemented in the game client.

    And let's not forget that ENT and MMH have their own reasons for boycotting the change: because for them, this means that they can shut down their business. That's right. They made money of it. If you don't see how that is connected to them trying to rally the community on their side, then you are delusional. Of course they want you to think that this is the end of the world...

    Shutting down hostbots should follow the same argument as the editor debate: If we can get an official solution instead on having to rely on 3rd party software, then all power to blizzard providing a good service.
    After all, we all want an accessable game that works right for everyone. Not some weird patchwork rug that requires hacking to get it going.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  18. mwsdevcom

    mwsdevcom

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    It is hard to call this a progress. It is a hack to aviod port forwarding(which would give subpar ping) coupled with major breakage of community tools.

    This is just laughable.

    I wouldn't be surprised if their income is barely covering server costs.

    At least 3rd party developer do like the game and are not out of touch with community. And they are probably more qualified to do so as 1.30 has shown.
     
  19. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    Community tools made to solve a problem that no longer exists with 1.30.2.

    I fail to see a point or argument here.

    Story as old as time. "We are just accepting donations to cover our server cost" ... if WoW Pserver devs (see "Elysium corruption") are able to funnel donation money into their own pockets while still running a lagfree server, then so can hostbot services.
    And I would argue that running an MMORPG requires better servers than a hosted wc3 game.

    Both Kam and MindWorX are respected members among the Hiveworkshop community. Especially the latter has release an entire editor toolset free of charge for our community.
    What have you done for this community?
     
  20. YourArthas

    YourArthas

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    Also another thing that I must mention, blizzard employees are all silent now and pretending that they are not reading community's opinion ( I'm sure they are reading all though) they were actively replying to us mostly but now all responds are gone