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Patch 1.1.2 – Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty

Discussion in 'Latest Updates and News' started by tagg1080, Oct 14, 2010.

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  1. InfiniteSeven

    InfiniteSeven

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    No comment.

    I don't recall Reapers used against Protoss very much after release, simply because Stalkers easily counter Reapers. Vs Zerg, 5rax reaper was too strong but I mean, they were nerfed into uselessness. Roach range buff already significantly weakened Reapers and the factory requirement for nitropacks was clear overkill, as was the depot before barracks.

    Roaches were fine before, but I have no complaints with the buff, I tend to think its good.

    Void rays kinda overpowered before, I'm sure. I mean, they ripped apart everything when they were charged, though they were sort of fragile. I don't think its fair that charged void rays rip apart a whole bunch of stimmed marines.

    Kinda good for people fighting against Terrans, bad for Terran armies because medivacs are now going to have a harder time keeping with the army.

    Zerg buffs were pretty necessary I'd say. I'm not sure about the Nexus and I did hope there would be some better buffs to the Terran buildings than a bit of HP for supply depots.

    Back at you.
     
  2. slake

    slake

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    1. No comment
    2. If you already have stalkers then you're probably way ahead then that danger moment when you're weak to Reapers.
    I forgot to say that after this patch...well Blizzard just deleted Reapers. That Factory before Nitro Packs is total ship.
    3. Roaches are pretty good now :) I think they are balanced...am I wrong?
    4. Well in any case if before they were overpowered, now they are equal to a Zergling...yes I said a Zergling, well maybe a Zergling with a ranged atack.
    5. I think it's very strange that a Marine can outrun a Medivac.
    6. Supply Depots were quite fragile thou now even stronger wall-offs are going to be a problem, a Terran can macro and turtle all he wants.
    7. Back at you ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  3. slake

    slake

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    1. I love balance :)
    2. Reapers are useless NOW, but I'm talking about their situtaion before the patch, and Nitro Pack Reapers were still strong against speedlings.
    3. Roaches seem fine.
    4. Still Thors are better then before and if a push with SCVs is done properly it could be very well a game ender.
    5. Have you watched it and where can I find it if possible?
    6. Still this gives a chance for Silver and Bronze players to react properly.
    7. I like the Nexus health now, as for Assimilators...neutral.

    Sorry for double-posting but this Multi-Quote button doesnt work, I tried F5 and waited a bit but I don't know what has to happen XD
     
  4. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    The point is that they were overnerfed.

    This has nothing to do with HTs since fast teching to HTs is a death sentence in PvT.

    No, Blizzard said this at BlizzCon and the replay(s) wasn't/weren't released.

    If they couldn't notice them before I doubt a quarter of a second helped.

    I personally hate Nexus health now. I can start attacking an undefended Nexus with my entire army and a Protoss force on the other side of their base can often get there in time to defend it even though their user totally incompetently positioned their army.

    You could always use copy+paste...
     
  5. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Perhapse reapers could get a hitpoint buff if people think they are too weak, from my experiences using them they must be made of paper or something as stalkers, roaches/hydras and maurders/other terran non marine units can sneeze at them to kill them.

    Eithor that or they are meant to compliment terran pushes. For their cost I think their anti building damage is pretty good.

    They attack every 2.3 - 1.9 seconds for 30 damage (39 damage at 3).
    This converts to 13.04 - 15.79 DPS (16.96 - 20.53 DPS at 3).
    They cost 50 minerals and 50 gas.

    You can get over 4 for the cost of a thor giving you atleast 67.83 - 82.11 DPS against buildings compred to the thor's 60.9 DPS when upgraded.
    Their anti light damage is also pretty good as well.

    Thus I think blizzard is intending them to be some sort of additional troop rather than for ealy raiding.
     
  6. slake

    slake

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    1. Absolutely.
    2. Not always.
    3. You were there?
    4. Okay then this nerf gives an oportunity for Gold+ players. Oh and it's actualy A second, not a quarter of a second.
    5. I have nothing so say except get a bigger army then ;D
    6. Thanks for the tip.

    Dr Super Good said:
    Perhapse reapers could get a hitpoint buff if people think they are too weak, from my experiences using them they must be made of paper or something as stalkers, roaches/hydras and maurders/other terran non marine units can sneeze at them to kill them.

    Eithor that or they are meant to compliment terran pushes. For their cost I think their anti building damage is pretty good.

    They attack every 2.3 - 1.9 seconds for 30 damage (39 damage at 3).
    This converts to 13.04 - 15.79 DPS (16.96 - 20.53 DPS at 3).
    They cost 50 minerals and 50 gas.

    You can get over 4 for the cost of a thor giving you atleast 67.83 - 82.11 DPS against buildings compred to the thor's 60.9 DPS when upgraded.
    Their anti light damage is also pretty good as well.

    Thus I think blizzard is intending them to be some sort of additional troop rather than for ealy raiding.

    The anti building damage is definetly their purpose, like a demolition unit. And maybe they serve the purpose of killing undefended buildings to gain the upper hand.
     
  7. rcshaggy

    rcshaggy

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    Hope the other expansions will have updates too and past missions to play like Raynor did in the lab to play some Zera'tul missions.
    Would be fun to see Kerrigan play out her past in Starcraft II, in a flash back and then be corrupted by the Zerg.
    For the Protoss as well.
     
  8. MGCǂSpectre

    MGCǂSpectre

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    In the sc2 missions they intoroduce you to all protoss units in just 4 missions though I never saw zealot or sentry introduction. And they didn't introduce the zerg units cause you don't play zerg, unless you mind control them with towers. then it's ZvZ :D

    The only portrait I play for from the campaign is Kerrigan, but it requires 29 missions on brutal, I count 28 even with those completed that i didn't when making the choices. I'm at the last mission so i'll see if it means '28' not 29.

    I like that portraits won by 1v1 != portraits won by 2v2 unlike war3 where the same, it's an indicator of how many games you've played of certain match type when using it

    And I don't watch achievements as some know, that is idc that even when i've all missions but the last. the achiv bar is half. At first I thought this bar meant number of finished missions not number of finished achievements. Yes nvm
     
  9. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    Yes. If they open cloaked banshees, you lose since you lack detection. If they open with some sort of barracks timing push, you still lose since you are putting so much money into getting HTs.

    No, but it's been recorded. Search for the Blizzcon 2010 Starcraft II Multiplayer Panel on youtube.

    ...

    --

    Reapers cost too much gas and take too long to build to be viable as some sort of harassment/support anti-building unit. Dropping MM is much more effective and Reapers aren't better enough than MM at killing buildings to justify how much worse they are against most units and their absurd gas and build time costs.

    --

    Imtor, there is a secret mission too, so 29 total.
     
  10. InfiniteSeven

    InfiniteSeven

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    Lore wise that doesn't make sense. Their hp is too low and stimmed Marauders do more dps to buildings, if I'm not mistaken. They also do less dps
    than stimmed marines against most units I think. Their low hp and high build time makes them unsuitable for core armies, since they'll get toasted quickly and won't get reinforced nearly as fast as needed. Also, cost wise they're not too good, Marines are more useful than Reapers in general combat, especially with upgrades considered.

    In addition, why would they get the ability to jump cliffs, good speed (especially with upgrade), have a strong anti building attack and be good against only light units, which are all early starting units and workers, and also be available early in the game, if they're not designed for early raiding?

    In short, Reapers have low hp, take way too long to make, can be easily countered now, are not too useful in combat. You can nearly make two Marines by the time you make one Reaper (Marines have 25 build time, Reapers have 45) and they don't require a tech lab or cost gas.

    EDIT: Also note, Thors are more useful than Reapers in that, they can attack air, they do dangerous amounts of damage vs all ground units and also they will actually survive to be useful in battle.

    EDIT2:

    Marine + Marauder drops are WAY more effective at this. With Medivacs they're able to go through routes the Reaper wishes it could. This is why Medivac speed was lowered and Zergs has building HP increased; because a drop quickly took out Zerg tech structures (which had very low hp before). Reapers just take too long to build as well at 45 game seconds, whereas Marines take 25 and Marauders (Which is better for sniping structures) take 30 to build.
     
  11. MGCǂSpectre

    MGCǂSpectre

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    Ty, I saw what i missed. Good think I had a save before going to Char which erased what I played on Char but it was hella easy with mind control towers so im gonna do it again. I wanted to have specific upgrades before last mission on Char like spectre perma cloaked but i ran out of cash, going back 3 missions before will do it.
     
  12. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    For Brutal on Char, I would personally just go with Banshee upgrades, Marine upgrades, Medic upgrades, Siege Tank upgrades, Perdition Turrets, Psi Disruptors, SCV Repair, Orbital Command, and building autorepair. (Eliminate their air)
     
  13. tagg1080

    tagg1080

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    I am owning in platinum with a 3rax reaper opening.

    I hit with about 8-10ish reapers off of 3 rax, all with +1/+1 and speed. (the tech labs then go to a factory, and then reactors are put down, and it moves perfectly into MMMT from there, aka easy button :thumbs_up: )

    Almost every game it takes them quite by surprise, because they are just not used like that anymore.

    5-6rax reaper was solid until the nerf, but I find that reaper builds, at least what I am using, are still viable.

    In the very least, they make the enemy build up more defenses and clam up more so you can secure your very difficult to secure expansions.


    I still think the zerg building health upgrade wasn't needed.

    Overlord placements should basically null 99% of drops, there are only a few effective drop spots on each map, just learn them... And a few queens can take them down very effectively while just a small handful of speedlings can take a dropped mm ball. Infesting the map does not mean that you don't have to defend all of it... Creep gives you vision of the ground, overlords give you vision of the spots that creep doesn't, there is absolutely no excuse for getting dropped to death as zerg.
     
  14. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    For brutal I advise getting all upgrades... Technologically you need PSI disruptors for shattering the sky mission choice and HMEs for the other choice.

    Choice wise I advise going with the anti ground mission so you face air in the final mission. Mind controlling broodlords totally thrashes kerrigan as she can not psyonic implosion organic units (Brood lords and mutalisks are immune) and the insane attack rate of broodlings rips her super armor appart (she can not take more than 5 damage a hit). Additionally the land units that come are so few that broodlords alone can keep them at bay let alone with the odd siege tank support. You can also use medics/medivacs to keep your zerg air well healed, another advantage of them being organic. Livithan is tough, but with a hoard of mutalisks he stands no chance (especially if you provide terran air support). Only problem is you will have to spam HME towers and you must get used to good micro (they do not auto convert). Do not forget to leave SCVs on repair to keep the towers healed beyond their auto repair systems can and keep making more.

    So you lot can stop guessing, here are the exact maximum DPS values from marine, maurder and reaper.

    Maurder
    Attack period 1.625 - 1.4375 (1.125 - 0.9375 stimmed)
    Damage 13 (+13 to armored)
    DPS 8 (+8) - 9.04 (+9.04) (11.56 (+11.56) - 13.87 (+13.87) stimmed)

    Marine
    Attack period 0.9858 - 0.7983 (0.6989 - 0.5114 stimmed)
    Damage 9
    DPS 9.13 - 11.27 (12.88 - 17.60 stimmed)

    Reaper
    Building
    Attack period 2.3 - 1.9
    Damage 39
    DPS 16.96 - 20.53

    Normal
    Attack period 1.225 - 1.0375
    Damage 2 * 7 (+5 light)
    DPS 11.43 (+8.16) - 13.49 (+9.64)

    The analysis is that reapers do more damage to buildings and light units than even stimmed marines. Against light units they beat stimmed maurders DPS wise as well. Maurders however do more DPS against armored units (buildings) than the anti building rounds of the reaper.

    Thus they you see their damage is not as low as you were lead to believe. However is it worth their cost though...

    My calculations are theretical values, actual DPS values will be rounded to nearest frames.
     
  15. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    tagg, that wouldn't work against good players. You are basically relying on them playing poorly.

    (You also lose to a Roach bust).

    --

    DSG, your numbers are weird. First, why do you keep listing two attack speeds rather than one? Second, Marauders should have 1.5 attack speed.
     
  16. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    PurplePoot, incase you have not realised, there is an element of randomness added to attack timing. I am prety sure if you get an army of 10 maurders to attack a dummy they will eventually (or should acording to editor data unless sub frames get ingored) be attacking out of sync despite all of them firing the first volley at once.

    As such there is a worst possible case whereby you have the longest possible reload time and a best possible case where you have the shortest reload time.
    The value shown to players ingame is the period, in the case of the maurder it is correct in saying that it is 1.5. Maurders have a "Random Delay Maximum" of 0.125 seconds and a "Random Delay Minimum" of -0.0625 seconds, as such they actually attack slower on average (or atleast should) than the given period by under 1 frame.

    Although for maurders this is a minimal error, it still does mean their DPS varies (a range) which is what I tried to take into consideration. Attack speed works on period only I believe thus the maximum and minimum are not subject to multiplication (I think they are offsets but I will eventually look into this).

    Although for maurders and marines this is nearly un noticable, but for D-8 charges of Reapers they have a minum delay of 0.1 with maximum of 0.5 thus are actually slower than the 1.8 period listed ingame (average of 2.1) so unless you take that into consideration the damage dealt would be computed far greater than the actual damage D-8 charges do.
     
  17. tagg1080

    tagg1080

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    Tis working for me so far! :thumbs_up:
    (Lets not do the "this one build will beat it so it sucks" game plox)

    I think we are going to see reapers come back, I just think that no one has really found a nice little niche for them yet.


    If you check the editor, each unit actually has a slight random time added or subtracted from their attack speed.

    So their attack speed is actually variable. :grin:
     
  18. MGCǂSpectre

    MGCǂSpectre

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    Since the Supernova mission. Valhalla, Maw of the Void and Korhal I don't use infantry making the orbital strike useless to me, tech reactor times better. And Im replaying from after Media Blitz cause i didnt find the Secret mission and want tje Kerrigan portrait. Also NO. I never used Thors there, there were other upgardes and yet I wasted upg on Thor.

    As for the Zerg, if you have psi disruptor on the last mission you will do better, cause I use the mind control one and is pretty easy for the 1st 2 missions on Char but in the last the psi is the better choice which I cant change and won't change, im trying it with the mind control.

    My idea about specters is because in 'Utter Darkness' I was making a wall of Dark Templars and killing overseers at all costs before they reach the wall of darks so the masses of zerg couldn't pass. Was thinking of doing the same with specters :)

    But hell yeah, fun to play the last one now with completed secret mission. And as some pointed out - they could've used the Kerrigan portrait from the cinematic, the current one is kind of like recolored Nova. She's still good there but Nova is hotter, while Kerrigan is hotter on the 'betrayal' cinematic.
    _________________________________________
    As for the patch, I said it but, zerg became me weakest MU, they became brave after this patch.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  19. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Mind control is only good if you are facing air in the final mission. Cause air is not that numerous, land is a non issue and you can just mind control all incomming air. Against land the mind control pillar is usless cause all the land they send is very weak and will cause too much damage to you anyway.
     
  20. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    It's just that it's kind of like saying cannon into mass void rays is viable because it works in bronze. It's not that one build beats your strategy; it's that pretty much any half decent Zerg will scout it and beat it easily.

    (And obviously against P/T you autolose to anything)

    Neat, but in pretty much every case you might as well assume the stated value.
     
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